They'll have to rework crusader strike, because the current version (75% weapon damage as physical damage) would never get hit by a Prot Paladin ever. Even if they changed the damage back to holy, 75% weapon damage from a 1.6 weapon is just too low to be worth the GCD. What I'm really hoping for is something like devastate that is weapon damage+X and puts a stacking debuff of some sort(+ Holy damage maybe) on the enemy.
Who says tank weapons will be fast anymore? Warriors will definitely want slow weapons, so they'll probably do the same with paladins too.
Hell, it's possible there won't even be tank weapons anymore (there's not much reason to have weapons that are that specific), and they'll just use the 1H strength DPS weapons.
Nothing has been said that would indicate tank weapons are going to be slow or non-existent. Slow tank weapons would be great for Warriors and Paladins, because they generate more threat, but I have no reason to believe they are going to change the status quo in terms of Paladin and Warrior tank weapons.
I don't think warriors would even use tank weapons anymore if they're fast when they can grab a 2.6 speed weapon with maybe a little less stamina and some crit rating instead of parry rating and presumably generate notably better threat.
Or maybe Blizzard wants that to be a decision -- trade nigh-insignificant survivability stats for threat -- but I don't think there will be a particularly good design reason to have tank weapons anymore in Cataclysm (there are no longer "tank weapons" for DKs and ferals) since they're trying to standardize gear across more specs.
It's just a matter of how they itemize tank weapons, if they still exist. If there are fast tank weapons that get more stam on them where the defense used to be, or even armor, then they're still going to be attractive for progression content. A weapon that has high stam, dodge, parry, and hell may even have block rating since block is becoming better would still be attractive.
I agree that the best overall design choice would probably be to just have Warriors and Paladins use 2.6 speed STR dps weapons, and share them with Frost DKs and Single minded fury warriors. I certainly wouldn't care. I guess it's just wait and see like most of Cata.
There's no reason for tank weapons anymore. They are almost as useless as Holy Plate and way easier to get rid of.
Yep, exactly my point.
Anyway, look at the budgeting on 1H weapons. There just aren't that many stats on them compared to the whole of your character. Most of the value is in the damage/DPS of the weapon. If you completely ignore damage/threat and took two paladins (or warriors) with all the exact same set of ICC tank gear except for waepon, then gave one tank the Red Sword of Courage (a measly ilevel 200 from the beginning of WotLK) and the other, say, a 264 or 271 tank weapon, the difference between the two tanks would be minor enough that you wouldn't say one is particularly better geared than the other. I can't go to wowhead to see the exact differences, but one would have, what, maybe 400 more health than the other and like 30 more points worth of defense rating? Meh.
Now you figure that comparing (hypothetical) even ilevel Cata tank weapons to DPS weapons would have less of a disparity in stamina, and you could get a DPS weapon with hit, expertise, or mastery rating on it and you would only have one "wasted" rating on it like crit or haste vs. one tank rating on the tank weapon. It just doesn't make sense.
Especially considering strength 1Hers would only be used by one spec and one subspec (1H fury warriors) if they weren't intended for tanks, I think it would be nonsense to have tanking weapons in Cataclysm.
Heroic facelifter has 92 stam, a blue socket, 46 defense, 46 parry, and expertise(though you'd see this on DPS weapons too. Those are not trivial tanking numbers. Also, I'd rather see more tank weapons like Last Word with a nifty tanking proc than I would to see them go away. It's also nonsense to have dps caster swords that are only itemized for locks and mages, but they're out there. Variety is the spice of life, and Blizzard doesn't appear to be trying to remove all the variety just yet.
I'm not saying it doesn't make sense to remove tanking weapons and have all tanks use dps weapons. I'm saying I wouldn't count on it happening, especially when there hasn't been any mention of it whatsoever. It's nonsense to have dps caster swords that are only itemized for locks and mages, but they're out there. Variety is the spice of life, and Blizzard doesn't appear to be trying to remove all the variety just yet.
Except there's only 2 specs that use Tank weapons. There's at least 6 that use Caster swords. Probably 7, since Holy Pallies use them to, yes?
If when you say 6 specs you're talking about 3 specs each for mage/lock that is silly logic, because those classes are all dps. Items aren't created for demo locks vs. destro locks. And no, Holy Paladins don't use caster swords that have hit on them. Sure, the ones that are itemized like turning tide they do, but that's not every one of them.
In the end it doesn't matter whether you think Warrior and Paladin tanks should be using 1h STR weapons in cata, it matters whether that is what Blizzard wants. I don't expect it to happen, and maybe you do. We'll see what happens when the expansion comes out.
I'd like the option to be a two-hander tank, that would be cool.
Play a Death Knight, that's their thing.
With respect to the nonsense that is Icy Touch, I suspect that will go away once DK's get their dedicated tanking tree. They can be given some standard threat generating abilities and a more fine tuned method of burst Threat.
Except there's only 2 specs that use Tank weapons. There's at least 6 that use Caster swords. Probably 7, since Holy Pallies use them to, yes?
If when you say 6 specs you're talking about 3 specs each for mage/lock that is silly logic, because those classes are all dps. Items aren't created for demo locks vs. destro locks. And no, Holy Paladins don't use caster swords that have hit on them. Sure, the ones that are itemized like turning tide they do, but that's not every one of them.
In the end it doesn't matter whether you think Warrior and Paladin tanks should be using 1h STR weapons in cata, it matters whether that is what Blizzard wants. I don't expect it to happen, and maybe you do. We'll see what happens when the expansion comes out.
An average raid has at least 3 times as many mages and warlocks (and you can't just discount holy paladins since they do use caster swords) as it does prot paladins and prot warriors. And in WotLK I'm pretty sure there are significantly more tank weapons than caster swords.
I'm not sure what point you're trying to make. If it's just that you don't think they should have dedicated tank weapons anymore, that's cool. Maybe they get rid of them, and maybe they don't. I'd prefer them to continue having tank weapons and have them be more interesting i.e. Last Word than I would to just go to using DPS weapons. Now if other classes besides DKs had something like runeforging that would be different, but I don't want to be enchanting a DPS weapon with a tanking enchant. It's just contradictory, when for progression content every slot of gear should be contributing to effective health or avoidance for a tank.
My point is that this statement ("It's also nonsense to have dps caster swords that are only itemized for locks and mages, but they're out there.") itself is nonsense. Mages and warlocks have significant representation.
Why would switching from tankin 1h weapons to str dps 1 handers be any different than it is now?
Are there even str one handers in the game right now? No class uses them now and no class will use them in cataclysm, other than tanks.
The only difference is slow 1 hander produce more threat but do not have the EH/Avoidance focus that tank weapons do. IE you would be tanking with weapons that had crit/haste on them instead of dodge/parry/armor.
That other guy just thinks tank weapons shouldn't be in the game and they should make warriors/paladins use the same weapons as frost DKs/single minded fury warriors, but there is no indication that it's going to happen.
I really didn't think anyone really cared one way or the other about tank weapons. There are only a handful of them out there anyway, its not like it's taking up huge parts of the loot tables.
Hey at least the prot paladin isn't trying for the spell power weapon anymore. remember that shit?
Why would switching from tankin 1h weapons to str dps 1 handers be any different than it is now?
Are there even str one handers in the game right now? No class uses them now and no class will use them in cataclysm, other than tanks.
Frost DKs would prefer to use Strength One Handers if they existed now. And if Cata brings the Fury talent to make dual one-handers viable, that'd be another. So... two tanks and two DPS could potentially make good use of strength one handers come Cataclysm. That wouldn't be so bad actually. And all of those classes can use Swords, Axes and Maces.
Which could potentially leave Daggers and Fist weapons as Agility but that would probably add further issues for things like Shamans who would probably be limited to just Fist weapons since daggers are too fast for their DPS style. Hmm.
Honestly, Axes and Maces as agility weapons *now* doesn't really seem to make much sense... those weapons are much more strength based than finesse. Swords can fit into finesse I suppose. Not that WoW is based that much in reality of course.
When you are trying to hit that defense cap for the first time in order to break into heroics and the like, those one handers with defense really make a difference. I remember at one point I couldn't switch from one sword to another because doing so would have meant dropping below the defense cap. Mind you, this was forever ago, but the point still stands, at least in early progression, defense weapons do make a difference.
Right they 'did', but I think we're talking about moving forward and in Cataclysm that isn't going to be an issue any longer, which is making tanking weapons less necessary.
Why? All these changes are super confusing. 4.0 is going to be really weird.
To avoid those situations like the one Wavechaser explained. It allows a person with very limited access to tank gear just spec into being uncrittable or whatever. As it stands now Defense is a large cockblock to people who want to tank, but just dont have the right gear.
Why? All these changes are super confusing. 4.0 is going to be really weird.
To avoid those situations like the one Wavechaser explained. It allows a person with very limited access to tank gear just spec into being uncrittable or whatever. As it stands now Defense is a large cockblock to people who want to tank, but just dont have the right gear.
I meant why shut up, sorry, this stuff is complex and the changes to the buff system haven't even been finished yet.
Why would switching from tankin 1h weapons to str dps 1 handers be any different than it is now?
Because it would clear the loot tables of useless weapons almost no one uses.
I count five tank weapons in all of ICC10 and 25. Unless I am missing some this means there is 5/24 bosses that drop tank weapons this last patch.
I also count 0 strength 1handers.
Ok so next expansion they take the fast tank 1 handers and replace them with slow strength 1 handers.
Only people rolling on these are the Warrior and Paladin tanks, and maybe DW DKs, possibly fury warriors and enhance shamans.
It's not really freeing up any loot tables.
Except in Cataclysm there will be Strength 1 handers. Now pretend they're keeping tank weapons too, and you have two different weapon types each used by a rather limited subset of players. However, get rid of the tank weapons and you now have a reasonable amount of players covered under one type.
Yeah man, those 2 tank weapons per raid instance are really murdering the loot tables for everybody else. :P
Realistically in Cata Fury Warriors(single minded fury) and Frost DKs will use STR 1 handers, but they'll also use the rogue/enhancement AGI slow 1 handers if they haven't gotten a STR one to drop yet. Then there will be one or two tank weapons per raid instance just like there are now. The loot tables will be balanced just like they are now, and we'll all go on raiding just like we are now.
DK tank weapons are Warrior/Ret weapons. Feral tank weapons are polearms they share with hunters. Not sure what that has to do with this discussion though.
You want that to be the extension, but that doesn't make it so. It's not the same because DKs get to runeforge their weapons into a tank weapon, and Bears are unique in that they wear most all dps gear and get their extra stam/armor through talents, and only use dodge.
Until Blizzard decides they don't want the shield tanks wearing weapons that are specifically itemized for tanking stats, then 1h str weapons will be threat weapons for tanks, and nothing more, just like they are now, and we'll get to choose between the two types.
Except of course that aren't One Handed DPS weapons already kind of better for threat for Paladins and Warriors? And if there are slow strength-based one handers available, tanks may gravitate to them for threat purposes anyway. Hmm... I'm curious how that's going to work.
Posts
Hell, it's possible there won't even be tank weapons anymore (there's not much reason to have weapons that are that specific), and they'll just use the 1H strength DPS weapons.
Or maybe Blizzard wants that to be a decision -- trade nigh-insignificant survivability stats for threat -- but I don't think there will be a particularly good design reason to have tank weapons anymore in Cataclysm (there are no longer "tank weapons" for DKs and ferals) since they're trying to standardize gear across more specs.
I agree that the best overall design choice would probably be to just have Warriors and Paladins use 2.6 speed STR dps weapons, and share them with Frost DKs and Single minded fury warriors. I certainly wouldn't care. I guess it's just wait and see like most of Cata.
Anyway, look at the budgeting on 1H weapons. There just aren't that many stats on them compared to the whole of your character. Most of the value is in the damage/DPS of the weapon. If you completely ignore damage/threat and took two paladins (or warriors) with all the exact same set of ICC tank gear except for waepon, then gave one tank the Red Sword of Courage (a measly ilevel 200 from the beginning of WotLK) and the other, say, a 264 or 271 tank weapon, the difference between the two tanks would be minor enough that you wouldn't say one is particularly better geared than the other. I can't go to wowhead to see the exact differences, but one would have, what, maybe 400 more health than the other and like 30 more points worth of defense rating? Meh.
Now you figure that comparing (hypothetical) even ilevel Cata tank weapons to DPS weapons would have less of a disparity in stamina, and you could get a DPS weapon with hit, expertise, or mastery rating on it and you would only have one "wasted" rating on it like crit or haste vs. one tank rating on the tank weapon. It just doesn't make sense.
Especially considering strength 1Hers would only be used by one spec and one subspec (1H fury warriors) if they weren't intended for tanks, I think it would be nonsense to have tanking weapons in Cataclysm.
I'm not saying it doesn't make sense to remove tanking weapons and have all tanks use dps weapons. I'm saying I wouldn't count on it happening, especially when there hasn't been any mention of it whatsoever. It's nonsense to have dps caster swords that are only itemized for locks and mages, but they're out there. Variety is the spice of life, and Blizzard doesn't appear to be trying to remove all the variety just yet.
Sorry, i'm a bit confused as to what we are arguing about here.
A Str one-hander.
and yeah, paladins use caster swords.
If when you say 6 specs you're talking about 3 specs each for mage/lock that is silly logic, because those classes are all dps. Items aren't created for demo locks vs. destro locks. And no, Holy Paladins don't use caster swords that have hit on them. Sure, the ones that are itemized like turning tide they do, but that's not every one of them.
In the end it doesn't matter whether you think Warrior and Paladin tanks should be using 1h STR weapons in cata, it matters whether that is what Blizzard wants. I don't expect it to happen, and maybe you do. We'll see what happens when the expansion comes out.
Play a Death Knight, that's their thing.
With respect to the nonsense that is Icy Touch, I suspect that will go away once DK's get their dedicated tanking tree. They can be given some standard threat generating abilities and a more fine tuned method of burst Threat.
And DPS weapons still contribute to EH.
Are there even str one handers in the game right now? No class uses them now and no class will use them in cataclysm, other than tanks.
The only difference is slow 1 hander produce more threat but do not have the EH/Avoidance focus that tank weapons do. IE you would be tanking with weapons that had crit/haste on them instead of dodge/parry/armor.
That other guy just thinks tank weapons shouldn't be in the game and they should make warriors/paladins use the same weapons as frost DKs/single minded fury warriors, but there is no indication that it's going to happen.
Hey at least the prot paladin isn't trying for the spell power weapon anymore. remember that shit?
Because it would clear the loot tables of useless weapons almost no one uses.
Frost DKs would prefer to use Strength One Handers if they existed now. And if Cata brings the Fury talent to make dual one-handers viable, that'd be another. So... two tanks and two DPS could potentially make good use of strength one handers come Cataclysm. That wouldn't be so bad actually. And all of those classes can use Swords, Axes and Maces.
Which could potentially leave Daggers and Fist weapons as Agility but that would probably add further issues for things like Shamans who would probably be limited to just Fist weapons since daggers are too fast for their DPS style. Hmm.
Honestly, Axes and Maces as agility weapons *now* doesn't really seem to make much sense... those weapons are much more strength based than finesse. Swords can fit into finesse I suppose. Not that WoW is based that much in reality of course.
I count five tank weapons in all of ICC10 and 25. Unless I am missing some this means there is 5/24 bosses that drop tank weapons this last patch.
I also count 0 strength 1handers.
Ok so next expansion they take the fast tank 1 handers and replace them with slow strength 1 handers.
Only people rolling on these are the Warrior and Paladin tanks, and maybe DW DKs, possibly fury warriors and enhance shamans.
It's not really freeing up any loot tables.
To avoid those situations like the one Wavechaser explained. It allows a person with very limited access to tank gear just spec into being uncrittable or whatever. As it stands now Defense is a large cockblock to people who want to tank, but just dont have the right gear.
Realistically in Cata Fury Warriors(single minded fury) and Frost DKs will use STR 1 handers, but they'll also use the rogue/enhancement AGI slow 1 handers if they haven't gotten a STR one to drop yet. Then there will be one or two tank weapons per raid instance just like there are now. The loot tables will be balanced just like they are now, and we'll all go on raiding just like we are now.
Until Blizzard decides they don't want the shield tanks wearing weapons that are specifically itemized for tanking stats, then 1h str weapons will be threat weapons for tanks, and nothing more, just like they are now, and we'll get to choose between the two types.