Game Design Colleges - Worthwhile or not?

RainbowDespair

So I'm kind of undergoing an early-life crisis at the moment. I got a bachelor's in Chinese, went overseas, taugh English in Asia for a year, and now I'm back looking for a job. Problem is that most of the jobs I'm seeing either require more experience or training than I have or are just glorified entry level service industry positions (bleh). So I'm thinking I probably ought to go back to school if I want a good shot at getting a job that I'll love.

Now I've always had a love of gaming (kind of obvious since I'm posting here) and I did a little casual programming when I was a teenager (haven't done anything serious in that realm for a good 6-7 years however) and well, I think it might be fun to work in the game industry. I saw Full Sail was advertising on the main page here and I'm curious if anyone here has experience with them or other similar game design colleges. Are they worth your time and money? I'm thinking with a little formal programming training plus my language skills (in addition to Chinese, I'm working on mastering Japanese), I could probably get a nice position at a good gaming company within a couple years, but maybe that's just wishfull thinking on my part.

043

Full Sail is a good thing to look into if you have an extra 90,000$ laying around for tuition alone. Not to mention living expenses for Orlando for two years.

I was seriously considering it until the money just didn't line up. My cousin, that's there now, says it's wonderful (and damn, look at pictures of the inside of the place, they've got everything a programmer would need) -- but I haven't gone down there to check it out yet.

Vegan

I don't have much practical information to impart, but I understand that there's a full spectrum of quality when it comes to these places. As in, you'd better do your research because while some are good, a lot are worthless.

Marlor

Also, the gaming industry is a bit like other "creative" industries: there is a pretty big range of jobs, with most at the bottom-end. You might end up with a cushy job working on really creative games. Or you may end up with a minimum-wage position, working 12-hours a day testing shovelware.

A stint at a good game design college will certainly help, but you need to really be an absolute genius at some aspect of game design to stand out from the pack.

VeritasVR

Vegan wrote:

As in, you'd better do your research because while some are good, a lot are worthless.

AbsoluteZero

VeritasVR wrote:

Vegan wrote:

As in, you'd better do your research because while some are good, a lot are worthless.

Pretty much all of them that are advertised on TV are shit.

Monoxide

AbsoluteZero wrote:

VeritasVR wrote:

Vegan wrote:

As in, you'd better do your research because while some are good, a lot are worthless.

Pretty much all of them that are advertised on TV are shit.

From what I understand, this includes Full Sail if you're going for the associates degree. Though if you get a bachelors there it's a little more useful.

JJ

AbsoluteZero wrote:

VeritasVR wrote:

Vegan wrote:

As in, you'd better do your research because while some are good, a lot are worthless.

Pretty much all of them that are advertised on TV are shit.

graphics
level 3
something
barf

Monoxide

JJ wrote:

AbsoluteZero wrote:

VeritasVR wrote:

Vegan wrote:

As in, you'd better do your research because while some are good, a lot are worthless.

Pretty much all of them that are advertised on TV are shit.

graphics
level 3
something
barf

I can't believe we're getting paid for this

...mind numbing code monkey work for 10 hours a day with no overtime, little benefits, and high turnover rate! Rad!!

Azio

I have talked to about a dozen senior developer type people from a variety of companies including Nintendo, Valve, EA, Relic and Blizzard and the overwhelming consensus is that while game design schools will definitely get you hired in the game industry, a vanilla CS degree from a respectable university is a better idea because it costs about a tenth as much money and lets you keep your options open. And, of course, a long ass resume with tons of relevant experience and an impressive portfolio will get you hired a lot faster than a fancy $100,000 degree.

rayofash

What was that one in Texas called? The Guildhall? That's the one people go to who are serious. Most experienced game developers laugh at people who went to Full Sail.

http://guildhall.smu.edu/

At the Guildhall you will actually be a part of a development team and make a game, and making a game is the best way to show employers you know what you're doing.

AlphaTwo

Azio wrote:

I have talked to about a dozen senior developer type people from a variety of companies including Nintendo, Valve, EA, Relic and Blizzard and the overwhelming consensus is that while game design schools will definitely get you hired in the game industry, a vanilla CS degree from a respectable university is a better idea because it costs about a tenth as much money and lets you keep your options open. And, of course, a long ass resume with tons of relevant experience and an impressive portfolio will get you hired a lot faster than a fancy $100,000 degree.

A long time ago in a land far a way, a little boy named AlphaTwo also considered going to a Game Design school. He also considered the fact that if the Game industry does a nosedive or just stalls, he would be screwed. Hence, he is now wrapping up his 4 year CS Degree, and looking at his connections to get in to some dev job somewhere (not necessery Game related, but it would be a plus).

Rook

I take it DigiPen is probably good to?

ElJeffe

Keep in mind that if you get a degree at a gaming college, then decide that you want to get out of gaming, your degree is pretty much worthless.

If you want to be in art, go to an art school. If you want to be in programming, go to a school and get a degree in CS. If you want to be in design, go to some other random school, get a degree in something that sounds cool, and spend your free time making mods for existing games, and designing UT levels, or something. At the end of the day, you'll have a degree and experience that makes you valuable in the game industry, but also valuable outside of it.

In short: No, they're not worth it.

mspencer

So what interests you about making games? Which of the many jobs were you hoping to train for a position in? Artist? Level design? Programming?

(If it's programming, I have some opinions to share.)

rayofash

ElJeffe wrote:

Keep in mind that if you get a degree at a gaming college, then decide that you want to get out of gaming, your degree is pretty much worthless.

If you want to be in art, go to an art school. If you want to be in programming, go to a school and get a degree in CS. If you want to be in design, go to some other random school, get a degree in something that sounds cool, and spend your free time making mods for existing games, and designing UT levels, or something. At the end of the day, you'll have a degree and experience that makes you valuable in the game industry, but also valuable outside of it.

In short: No, they're not worth it.

Best advice.

mrcheesypants

You know while I was doing college research for degrees (I'm a HS senior right now) I saw that at some schools software engineering programs have a video game design class elective.

I would suggest doing your research on degree curriculum as well.

Houk

rayofash wrote:

ElJeffe wrote:

Keep in mind that if you get a degree at a gaming college, then decide that you want to get out of gaming, your degree is pretty much worthless.

If you want to be in art, go to an art school. If you want to be in programming, go to a school and get a degree in CS. If you want to be in design, go to some other random school, get a degree in something that sounds cool, and spend your free time making mods for existing games, and designing UT levels, or something. At the end of the day, you'll have a degree and experience that makes you valuable in the game industry, but also valuable outside of it.

In short: No, they're not worth it.

Best advice.

Second'd. Know this, and burn it into your brain: Having a degree in programming will not get you a job as a designer. It will get you a job as a programmer. A lead design position consists of much more than understanding the code. In fact, a good number of designers come from creative/non CS fields like art, english, etc. In my 'im just one man' opinion, a programming degree will only prepare you for a very limited aspect of the designer's job, and one of the least important if you want to be an actual lead designer, who goes from original concept to shipped title.

Dublo7

The only job I'd be interested in would be Gaming journalism. Writing articles for a huge website or a magazine would be fantastic.

mspencer

Houk wrote:

Second'd. Know this, and burn it into your brain: Having a degree in programming will not get you a job as a designer. It will get you a job as a programmer. A lead design position consists of much more than understanding the code. In fact, a good number of designers come from creative/non CS fields like art, english, etc. In my 'im just one man' opinion, a programming degree will only prepare you for a very limited aspect of the designer's job, and one of the least important if you want to be an actual lead designer, who goes from original concept to shipped title.

Very good point. For an example of this, I'd recommend reading ALL of the articles on www.lostgarden.com back through the beginning. Sure he talks about some economic and business things, but some of the insights into game design shared there have helped me realize that I'm not a game designer and probably never will be -- unless I work VERY hard at it.

Houk

I'd also recommend that, even if you want to be a lead designer who does everything, pick what you love the most and focus on that. Oftentimes, you'll find that even if you're not cut out for lead, you can get a nice position controlling part of the game that you love anyway. For example, I'm an english major, working for a game localization company. Maybe someday I'll get a shot at creating my own game from the ground up, but right now my interest is simply in becoming a story/creative designer, building characters and stories and worlds. The tech side, the UI stuff, the mechanics, that's stuff that I might learn in time, but the only way to really learn it is to work your way up through a company, learning as you go.

ikillkenny

Gamasutra has a pretty good two-part podcast on the subject of Game Design schools. You can find it at www.gamasutra.com somewhere.

ToadTheMushroom

Dublo7 wrote:

The only job I'd be interested in would be Gaming journalism. Writing articles for a huge website or a magazine would be fantastic.

I can tell you now this is worth it. Its loads of fun and the added benefit is literally noone except for the most senior of senior editors of any gaming mag knows what the fuck they are talking about. Most are generic journalists.

Seriously, if you want to be a game journalists, know your shit. It helps that you know who designed Doom, but it glows on your record if you know how the game was made, in terms of limitations and scripting.

As for a gaming degree, I think Eljeffe was 100% right. Take a degree as a programmer, or generic designer or anything, dont tailor it specifically to gaming. Its similar in all fields.

You wanna be a game journalist, dont fucking take the 'game journalism course', which I considered at one point, take the fucking generic 'Journalism' course and have a strong interest in gaming outside of study.

I mean shit, most of the top game designers of late started in the mod community anyways, and top companies have been known to hire people purely on that, with no degree or anything (Valve for example).

Seriously, if you want to make games, take a generic course at college and make mods in your spare time.

Raijin Quickfoot

From what I have heard they are a great supplement to a Computer Science degree.

Shooter Mcgavin

If you want a game "design" degree, I'm taking the course at ITT Tech and it's really not too bad. If you want a game "programming" degree, then look elsewhere.

Lewisham

Dublo7 wrote:

The only job I'd be interested in would be Gaming journalism. Writing articles for a huge website or a magazine would be fantastic.

Tried it. Pay is shit.

As well as all the good advice up top: I took my CS Masters so I could go into games.

Being a good games programmer has zero to do with how much you like games. Being a good games programmer often has very different problems that need solving than "normal" programming; like 3D mathamatics, AI, that sort of stuff. While those sound like very interesting fields, for a great majority of people they are also very difficult and very frustrating. This is in addition to the comparatively poor pay, long hours, high turnover of employees and such. They can happily burn you out because there's always someone to replace you, unless you really are the shit.

End of four years, after all my life wanting to make games, I waved goodbye to the idea and I now work in databases, and I am a lot happier.

Dublo7

Lewisham wrote:

Dublo7 wrote:

The only job I'd be interested in would be Gaming journalism. Writing articles for a huge website or a magazine would be fantastic.

Tried it. Pay is shit.

As well as all the good advice up top: I took my CS Masters so I could go into games.

Being a good games programmer has zero to do with how much you like games. Being a good games programmer often has very different problems that need solving than "normal" programming; like 3D mathamatics, AI, that sort of stuff. While those sound like very interesting fields, for a great majority of people they are also very difficult and very frustrating. This is in addition to the crap pay, long hours, high turnover of employees and such. They can happily burn you out because there's always someone to replace you, unless you really are the shit.

End of four years, after all my life wanting to make games, I waved goodbye to the idea and I now work in databases, and I am a lot happier.

Really? Who did you work for?
I'd be interested to hear more about this, if you wouldn't mind

zilo

Crap pay? Programmers at game companies start at around 50k and top out in the mid to high six figures.

Get a CS degree, preferably at a university that has some game-oriented electives (like, for example, DePaul *shameless plug*). There's some math topics that are a bit too obscure to learn on your own easily, like smooth surfaces and the finer points of lighting and material shading- a university that has coursework in those areas is pretty helpful. Bear in mind you'll probably need a kick-ass portfolio, near-4.0 gpa, and the willingness to move anywhere in the country to be able to be picky about jobs.

'Course, that's if you want to be a programmer. I have no idea how to go about it from the art/design side.

Lewisham

zilo wrote:

Crap pay? Programmers at game companies start at around 50k and top out in the mid to high six figures.

Yeah, that's not what I meant. I ninja edit'd to say "compartively". People with the smarts to make good money in games dev generally can make more money if they go into a more straight-laced business instead.

Houk

And if you look at it from a pay-to-hours-worked ratio, starting pay is pretty shitty. Start at $50k, but if you're working 100 hour weeks, it doesn't really work out. If you can stick it out and climb the ladder, though, you really can rake it in.

Lewisham

Dublo7 wrote:

Really? Who did you work for?
I'd be interested to hear more about this, if you wouldn't mind

There is a good thread about this a while ago, I can't remember what it was called. Basically, in the UK (and from what others have said, US, including the guy on here who used to be at PC Gamer) the pay is very poor. Staff writer in the UK started at the same salary you could earn at McDonalds if you worked there full-time. It's a better job, sure, but it hardly pays the bills. To match my expected starting salary if I went into IT after graduating uni, I would have needed to be editor, which is exactly what everyone else is trying to get.

It's a very fun job if you can get it, but you would have to love it very very much to do it as a career. If you are as good a communicator as you need to be in a magazine, selling out to business would earn you more.

hambone

So as long as this is going to be a "game industry jobs prep advice" thread, I want to throw something out there. Maybe one of you with experience would know.

Would an MIS degree be at all helpful to the kind of person interested in the project management side of game making? What kinds of classes and skills are needed for that kind of thing in gaming?

What kind of career path does a game project manager (producer?) usually take?

RainbowDespair

So the general consensus is that some are garbage, some are decent, but in general, you'd be better served getting a more general degree in whatever field you want to work in is a much better idea. Makes sense.

Here's a more specific question. If I wanted to get into programming with an emphasis on translation (Asian languages to English), what field of programming does that fall under?

Houk

RainbowDespair wrote:

So the general consensus is that some are garbage, some are decent, but in general, you'd be better served getting a more general degree in whatever field you want to work in is a much better idea. Makes sense.

Here's a more specific question. If I wanted to get into programming with an emphasis on translation (Asian languages to English), what field of programming does that fall under?

im not even quite sure how programming and translation would go together. ive never heard of someone looking for 'programmer/translator'. They tend to pay two different people for stuff like that.

Lewisham

Houk wrote:

im not even quite sure how programming and translation would go together. ive never heard of someone looking for 'programmer/translator'. They tend to pay two different people for stuff like that.

I don't know, but maybe localisation teams would have people that did both. But I am inclined to agree with you, the chances are slim, and the chance you'll be able to even find a job like that advertised very very slim.

When I worked on getting translations for Dyson.co.uk online, I just cut and pasted the new translations into the string fields. I didn't need to know what was going up.

mspencer

Lewisham wrote:

Dublo7 wrote:

The only job I'd be interested in would be Gaming journalism. Writing articles for a huge website or a magazine would be fantastic.

Tried it. Pay is shit.

As well as all the good advice up top: I took my CS Masters so I could go into games.

Being a good games programmer has zero to do with how much you like games. Being a good games programmer often has very different problems that need solving than "normal" programming; like 3D mathamatics, AI, that sort of stuff. While those sound like very interesting fields, for a great majority of people they are also very difficult and very frustrating. This is in addition to the comparatively poor pay, long hours, high turnover of employees and such. They can happily burn you out because there's always someone to replace you, unless you really are the shit.

End of four years, after all my life wanting to make games, I waved goodbye to the idea and I now work in databases, and I am a lot happier.

I'm trying to do the same thing -- I'm currently enrolled in a MS in CS program -- but I haven't given up on the dream yet. My 'backup dream' is working for (or cofounding) a game tools company. (Maybe a class project will evolve into a conference paper, which might turn into a conference presentation, which might turn into interesting conversations with important people, which might turn into VC funding, which might turn into... yeah right, never in my lifetime.)

Part of what scares me about the development side of the game industry might not even be true -- but I have this (incorrect?) idea that game programmers have to be quick and dirty, and can't afford to spend enough time to do anything right unless the programmer is very very good. Scheduling and project management aren't inherently bad, but I'm afraid of being under such extreme schedule pressure that I never have time to do anything but quick and dirty, and that I'll never be asked to implement anything except very simple repetitive things.

Is that a problem? More importantly, does an MS degree cause producers to give you more trust about implementing new or interesting ideas? I'm getting the idea that one of the most important lessons you learn as a Masters student is how to work in and work with the body of current research out in the world, and maybe even how to add to it. Does that carry over into game programming work -- would someone trust you more to be able to identify a need, find some papers that describe the problem and/or its solution, and implement (or recommend) a solution based on that?

For example, I'm currently taking a class on type systems. Moddable games really need good scripting languages, and console security needs type safety. Suppose one game developer wanted to make a 'moddable' Xbox 360 game, where users can plug in a USB keyboard and use an in-game editor to work with scripts and levels, and share their creations over Xbox Live. Microsoft won't sign off on any such game until they can prove nobody can cause unsafe behavior with a specially-crafted game script.

(Plus I was very happy when I was browsing through the Torque Game Engine source ($100 indie license) and realized I can actually understand some of the stuff in engine/console/ now! That code mostly deals with TorqueScript.)

Drallo

I don't know what its like down south. But up here a number of actual universities offer game-design specific Bcs degree programs.

Ragnar Dragonfyre

I've recently graduated from a 3 year computer animation program at Durham College. While I learned a lot and enjoyed the course while I was there, I am now struggling to find a job. The point here is that getting a job as an artist or getting into the games industry is extremely difficult. In this world you really need to know someone or be in the right place at the right time.

That said, I do not regret going to college for animation and I will continue to pursue a career in gaming and animation. If you want to get into this industry you have to want it bad enough that you are willing to struggle, take shitty jobs and go hungry until you break into the industry.

However, gaming (animation) companies don't really want to hire students fresh out of college. They want someone who already has experience... and there's lots of hungry artists out there that already have more experience than a new graduate. I can't count the amount of companies that have looked at my demo reel and said: "You have great talent and understanding of animation however we're looking for someone a little more experienced. We urge you to continue honing your art. Please send us an updated reel as your career develops." The compliments never soften the disappointment of being rejected from yet another job opportunity.

Out of 19 grads from my course, only 4 have found jobs. 3 of them have either left their jobs (including me), or have gone back to school. I was only getting paid $11 an hour at my first contract, the gas and car insurance ate pretty much half of that, lucky for me I don't have to pay rent (live at home)... it just wasn't worth it. So now I'm back to looking. I also have a friend who took a game design course and he has yet to find a job.

If you want to get into the industry, you had better want it more than anything else in the world. You need serious dedication. Cut your playtime, quit WoW and get cracking!

Qorzm

Rook wrote:

I take it DigiPen is probably good to?

I'm also very interested in how DigiPen is recieved. Anyone know anything substantial?

Shooter Mcgavin

Qorzm wrote:

Rook wrote:

I take it DigiPen is probably good to?

I'm also very interested in how DigiPen is recieved. Anyone know anything substantial?

I'm interested too. The last time I thought about going to Digipen, they were teaching you how to make SNES games.

AlphaTwo

Drallo wrote:

I don't know what its like down south. But up here a number of actual universities offer game-design specific Bcs degree programs.

Really? This is rather recent news IIRC, and some of them have questionable reception as a degree.