Harry Dresden: Wizard, White Knight and Complete Dork.

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  • DedwrekkaDedwrekka Metal Hell adjacentRegistered User regular
    Hard to see a plethora of women in a series with the ability to handle themselves and take a stand as a bad thing. The fact that they keep beating up Harry has more to do with his attempts at heroics being poorly thought out.

  • LochielLochiel Registered User regular
    I don't think anyone see's it as a bad thing. If we really want to devolve into gender politics, it offers a nice counter balance to Dresden's casual "Save the women" brand of sexism. Especially with how blatantly and often Dresden's attitude towards women blows up in his face and gets him into trouble.

  • ShadowhopeShadowhope Baa. Registered User regular
    The first issue of the new Dresden comic dropped today.

    I enjoyed it.

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  • PinfeldorfPinfeldorf Yeah ZestRegistered User regular
    So, what's the deal with Mister? That cat has got to be pushing 20 years old by now and is showing no signs whatsoever of aging. Is he supernatural and found himself drawn to Harry due to such? Was he a normal cat and Ivy maybe did something with him? Did Bob's ridealongs give him an unnatural lifespan?

  • XeddicusXeddicus Registered User regular
    Pinfeldorf wrote: »
    So, what's the deal with Mister? That cat has got to be pushing 20 years old by now and is showing no signs whatsoever of aging. Is he supernatural and found himself drawn to Harry due to such? Was he a normal cat and Ivy maybe did something with him? Did Bob's ridealongs give him an unnatural lifespan?

    Maybe!

  • MegaMan001MegaMan001 CRNA Rochester, MNRegistered User regular
    Finished this book last night and it warms the cockles of my heart that I can come back to this thread, catch up, and have to endure several pages of arguing whether or not a 'Leaf Shaped Blade' is appropriate for Roman soldiers of Jesus' time or not. Then the really interesting research to the number of Spears / Daggers that were involved in the Crucifixion including several images of the blades in questions.

    Nerds.

    My thoughts!
    I thought it was really good. Definitely in the top 5 of the series. You can see Butcher's gotten just so - much - better at writing, but it still remains incredibly accessible. His descriptions of action scenes is particularly easy to follow, which after reading other series' lately I really appreciate.

    1. Dresden and Maggie is equal parts so cute and so goddamn depressing. The 'Dinosaur Cowgirl' throwback to Dead Beat was great as was the information that Molly has been quietly telling Maggie about Dresden.

    2. Molly, man, who knows? She points out that Maeve was a terrible Lady Winter so maybe she's going to do some good? Then again, she's using a cell phone? No longer human? If she's not, what does that say about Dresden and the Winter Mantle.

    3. The Head Parasite I think was kind of lame and kind of cool? I don't know, gonna have to wait to see how this plays out. If it's just Butcher going out of his way to give Bob a girlfriend, blech. We just had that for Toot! Butters has Andi! Everyone is just shacking up left and right.

    All in all, the only problem I see for the series going forward is we have TOO MANY good characters. Where was Ramirez? Will and Georgia? The Entire White Council? We need an entire series of vignettes detailing Dresden and Ramirez in a buddy cop story.

    4. Goodman Grey, a shagnasty with a human mother (Dresden's Father) who doesn't want to be held accountable for his evil father's (Justin DuMorne) actions? Foil much, Butcher? I took his 'Rent' comment to be what he does to be left in relative peace. He's a mercenary, doesn't hurt anyone outside of his contracts, so maybe that's how he's stayed off of people's radar as a potential monster while simultaneously trying to make up for the guilt he has on behalf of his parentage.

    5. Marcone setting up the long con to pay back Nicodemus for breaking the Unseelie Accords and taking away Dierdre is goddamn amazing. Shows that Macrone knows how to play the game.

    6. What is up with Tessa? Was she really trying to stop Nicodemus' plot? She said something to Dresden in the vault about "Not ruining her centuries of work?" I have no idea. Also, I'm beginning to think that Nicodemus is playing a game to try and stop The Adversary / Outsiders from destroying their reality. He really maybe thinking he's trying to Save the World.

    I am in the business of saving lives.
  • LorekLorek Registered User regular
    MegaMan001 wrote: »
    Finished this book last night and it warms the cockles of my heart that I can come back to this thread, catch up, and have to endure several pages of arguing whether or not a 'Leaf Shaped Blade' is appropriate for Roman soldiers of Jesus' time or not. Then the really interesting research to the number of Spears / Daggers that were involved in the Crucifixion including several images of the blades in questions.

    Nerds.

    My thoughts!
    I thought it was really good. Definitely in the top 5 of the series. You can see Butcher's gotten just so - much - better at writing, but it still remains incredibly accessible. His descriptions of action scenes is particularly easy to follow, which after reading other series' lately I really appreciate.

    1. Dresden and Maggie is equal parts so cute and so goddamn depressing. The 'Dinosaur Cowgirl' throwback to Dead Beat was great as was the information that Molly has been quietly telling Maggie about Dresden.

    2. Molly, man, who knows? She points out that Maeve was a terrible Lady Winter so maybe she's going to do some good? Then again, she's using a cell phone? No longer human? If she's not, what does that say about Dresden and the Winter Mantle.

    3. The Head Parasite I think was kind of lame and kind of cool? I don't know, gonna have to wait to see how this plays out. If it's just Butcher going out of his way to give Bob a girlfriend, blech. We just had that for Toot! Butters has Andi! Everyone is just shacking up left and right.

    All in all, the only problem I see for the series going forward is we have TOO MANY good characters. Where was Ramirez? Will and Georgia? The Entire White Council? We need an entire series of vignettes detailing Dresden and Ramirez in a buddy cop story.

    4. Goodman Grey, a shagnasty with a human mother (Dresden's Father) who doesn't want to be held accountable for his evil father's (Justin DuMorne) actions? Foil much, Butcher? I took his 'Rent' comment to be what he does to be left in relative peace. He's a mercenary, doesn't hurt anyone outside of his contracts, so maybe that's how he's stayed off of people's radar as a potential monster while simultaneously trying to make up for the guilt he has on behalf of his parentage.

    5. Marcone setting up the long con to pay back Nicodemus for breaking the Unseelie Accords and taking away Dierdre is goddamn amazing. Shows that Macrone knows how to play the game.

    6. What is up with Tessa? Was she really trying to stop Nicodemus' plot? She said something to Dresden in the vault about "Not ruining her centuries of work?" I have no idea. Also, I'm beginning to think that Nicodemus is playing a game to try and stop The Adversary / Outsiders from destroying their reality. He really maybe thinking he's trying to Save the World.

    On 2 & 6
    2. I definitely think the implication is that Molly is no longer human, so her magic doesn't interfere with mortal technology anymore. Dresden is definitely still human because 1) technology is still blowing up around him and 2) the faerie Knight's need to remain mortal. The whole reason they (or at least the Winter Knight) exists is that faerie's can't kill humans unless the human does something dumb first to give the faerie power over them. The Winter Knight's main purpose is he has no such restriction and can kill mortals at Mab's whim.

    6. I think Tessa was just not cool with Nicodemus sacrificing their daughter, and centuries of work of raising/protecting/mothering her. Once they come back from the underworld, Tessa and Nicodemus seem to have no problem teaming up again when they try burning down the house.

  • Page-Page- Registered User regular
    edited June 2014
    Finished the other day. It was good, and better than the last one. Fewer new characters tossed in for seemingly no reason.
    Still would have preferred for a more decisive ending, and a less dues ex machina-style reveal for Goodman's turn. I mean, it wasn't that hard to see coming, but it was a little lame how it was done. I know these books have a solid history of mysteries that are on the page, but not really--kind of a blend of detective fiction and the rules of fantasy magic, where the author always has one more exception or contradiction up their sleeves, but still.

    A lot less repetitive compared to the last book. Harry only complained about not having his shield bracelet, followed by a description of what his shield bracelet was for, a few times.

    The parasite was interesting? I mean, I'm pretty sure everyone knew it was Lash, but having it really be their psychic offspring was a twist. Good or bad? Not sure about that yet. How will she relate to Bob? Does it imply that Bob may have been created the same way? Is this a means of letting Butters keep Bob, Molly staying aloof, and Harry getting a new sidekick to explain things to?

    Unlike the last few books, it didn't end with a particularly big cliffhanger or reveal. Molly becoming less human isn't that major, since the implications aren't that clear at the moment. No further exploration of Harry's escape clause, either.

    Most disappointing part of the book was the lack of Thomas. I'm just not that big on Murphy. I know it had to be that way for plot reasons, but I'd have liked a Harry and Thomas caper.

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  • XeddicusXeddicus Registered User regular
    Thomas is going to get an entire arc of being cured (or deaded), because right now Harry (and most everyone else) has this giant blind spot about him and forget that he's a monster. A sad, tragic, life is cruel, monster. But a monster. He gets banged up too much and oopsie. I kind of want him and Molly to meet up again, maybe she could slay the demon inside. Or just turn him down spectacularly. It be good times either way.

    Skin Game:
    Parasite:
    I really don't think she'll be Bob's new thing to leer at. I mean, it could be, but it be better if he took her under his wing instead. Dresden needs a Bob replacement, Lash the II is a good choice.

    Molly:
    Yeah, we need more information. Maybe she's just good at controlling her magic. From everything else we saw or heard about her she's still Molly. That will change probably just to fuck with Harry, but.

    Goodman Grey wasn't really a dues ex machina any more than, say, Butters. A Knight of the Cross works like that, so kind of bad example, but still.

    But speaking of them turning the tables: Man, I wish someone had killed Nic. Asshole as more lives than a cat.

  • DelmainDelmain Registered User regular
    edited June 2014
    I don't get all the confusion with Molly using a cell phone. Human magic interferes with technology, but there's something you all should know that makes that a pointless fact.

    She's not fuckin' human anymore.

    She's a faerie fuckin' queen.

    Delmain on
  • Page-Page- Registered User regular
    edited June 2014
    Goodman Grey:
    I don't mean that he was a deus ex machina, since it was fairly obvious at a certain point that he was not a bad guy. I mean the reveal was not to my tastes. A mystery that a reader can piece together with hindsight is neat, but when the author just goes, "btw a bunch of shit happened that I never told you about, even though the entire book you've been following the same viewpoint character," it's not as cool. It soured me a little, even though I actually liked Grey. There was no real setup, aside from Harry saying once or twice that he's got a trump card, but he's always saying that.

    It's different from something like Harry setting up the hit on himself, because he's the viewpoint character and that memory was actually hidden from him as well, which made it a fairly major part of the plot, and the reader discovers it along with him.

    Knights of the Cross:
    The Knights of the Cross thing works just fine because there was a setup, and he continually reminds us that a Knight will show up when he's needed, because that's what they do. There was even setup for Murphy wrecking the sword, since every time the swords are mentioned Harry explains that using them improperly will break them. That's been one of their major features for like 10 books now, so it was going to happen eventually.

    I did have a little bit of an issue with how it was done, though. Murphy spends most of her time with guns, so it makes no sense that she wouldn't have had one. She also knows just as well as anyone else that using the swords improperly will have dire consequences. It seems really odd--even convenient--that she decides to take a sword into a fight without a gun and without a plan for killing someone without having to use the sword. Even Harry and Nicodemus had guns on them, and Murphy was wearing a vest. I can understand the heat of the moment pressure and all of that, but I wasn't quite sold on it being anything less than dumb (which is perfectly acceptable) and a little out of character.

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  • LochielLochiel Registered User regular
    We did see Dresden use a magical doodad to supress his magic field to not destroy technology.

    Either she's a faerie queen, or we're supposed to believe that she's a faerie queen as a setup future surprises. Not that big a deal imo

  • JayrichoJayricho Ontario, CanadaRegistered User regular
    I was actually surprised that...
    Daniel Carpenter never showed up (or was even mentioned), with all the time spent in the Carpenter household.

  • XeddicusXeddicus Registered User regular
    As was said, there are just too many characters now. Some people will fall through the cracks and not even get mentioned.

    Molly:
    We don't know she's not a human faerie queen or some such. Mab herself seems to hint she wasn't always the Queen of Air and Darkness. It seems it's clearly being set up that Molly could become Other, just like Harry and the Mantle. She may not have a choice if she keeps it or a choice to get rid of it or...we just need more information.

    Murphy:
    Didn't have a gun out to start with because guns do diddly squat against Nic normally. Then when things went to hell, but he was vulnerable in theory there wasn't really any way for her to pull one and blow him away, as much as I would have friggin loved her for it. It may have been plot demanded, but he got out of her slitting his throat which was all set up to go. It have been awesome of Michael had a rifle handy right about then, though.

  • Page-Page- Registered User regular
    Murphy:
    He was on the ground, unarmed and defenceless. There wasn't even a big speed issue, like taking the extra half a second needed to draw the gun and shoot him in the face at point blank range would be any faster than lifting the sword.

    The issue is not that Murphy didn't bring a gun because it wouldn't have worked on Nic. Most of the stuff she goes up against shrug off bullets like rain, and yet she carries around guns anyway.

    It would have made more sense for her to have had the gun and been disarmed, or have an injured arm that would have made drawing it impractical, or for her to have already used up her ammo. Any of that would have accomplished the same ends without Murphy--the one character in the books who always has a gun--to suddenly not have one when she needed it most.

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  • XeddicusXeddicus Registered User regular
    Murphy: The Murphying:
    She had to break the sword so Butters could get his lightsaber. So, blame Uriel and co?

  • Page-Page- Registered User regular
    I know exactly why she had to, I'm just saying that it felt out of character and could have been done better.

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  • XeddicusXeddicus Registered User regular
    And if it was out of character that's a good way to explain it. Just like the last time she had divine guidance.

  • DedwrekkaDedwrekka Metal Hell adjacentRegistered User regular
    Jayricho wrote: »
    I was actually surprised that...
    Daniel Carpenter never showed up (or was even mentioned), with all the time spent in the Carpenter household.

    He's pretty old now, I don't think he lives there anymore.

  • MegaMan001MegaMan001 CRNA Rochester, MNRegistered User regular
    edited June 2014
    Dedwrekka wrote: »
    Jayricho wrote: »
    I was actually surprised that...
    Daniel Carpenter never showed up (or was even mentioned), with all the time spent in the Carpenter household.

    He's pretty old now, I don't think he lives there anymore.

    Was I the only one having trouble keeping track of the Carpenter children? Oldest to youngest went...Molly - Daniel - Alicia (wasn't mentioned?) - Amanda / Hope / Harry Jr.?

    EDIT: Apparently according to the wiki there is another son, Matthew, but I don't remember him ever being mentioned.

    Butcher should start murdering some of these beloved characters with extreme prejudice, too many to keep track of and it sucks when you go several books without hearing from someone.

    MegaMan001 on
    I am in the business of saving lives.
  • XeddicusXeddicus Registered User regular
    Well, Daniel has only showed up once really. Hard to be "beloved". And Elaine has proved you can be MIA and still turn up later and it works. So having a nice supply of characters could be handy.

  • KetBraKetBra Dressed Ridiculously Registered User regular
    Molly:
    Wait, there's some doubt as to whether Molly is a faerie? I thought that was pretty well established.

    KGMvDLc.jpg?1
  • XeddicusXeddicus Registered User regular
    edited June 2014
    Well we've never seen it happen before. So we don't know what happens. It seems likely, but there's enough wiggle room for anything to be the case still. Nothing has been definitely stated.

    Xeddicus on
  • ShadowhopeShadowhope Baa. Registered User regular
    Something I noticed about Molly:
    At least twice, if I recall correctly, Molly was described as "merry." As was Kringlodin, for that matter.

    I think that she's trying her best to be the other side of Winter, the side that's snowball fights and hot cocoa, evenings by the fire and sledding, friends and family and Christmas.


    Kringlodin's talk of mantles while meeting Harry, as well as the fact that he has two eyes as Kringle (indicating a substantial change in him by swapping mantles), makes me suspect that Molly might be heading for a similar situation. As the Winter Lady, she'll be Fae, subject to the Bane and the restriction to tell the truth; as her other mantle, she'll be free to tell fibs all day. And with her illusion powers, she could make herself look like she's in her role as Winter Lady, telling the truth, when in fact she's in her alternate role, lying so hard her pants catch fire.

    Random thought of an additional mantle for her: Knight of the Cross.

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  • SamphisSamphis Registered User regular
    edited June 2014
    So why if iron pierces Harry does he have issues, but he is okay holding a revolver, or anything else that's iron-based?

    edit: Or the fact that he has blood?

    Samphis on
  • DelmainDelmain Registered User regular
    Samphis wrote: »
    So why if iron pierces Harry does he have issues, but he is okay holding a revolver, or anything else that's iron-based?

    edit: Or the fact that he has blood?

    The iron has to break his skin to disrupt the mantle.

  • SamphisSamphis Registered User regular
    Shaving must suck.

  • DelmainDelmain Registered User regular
    He is obviously going to order a ceramic knife for that.

  • ForarForar #432 Toronto, Ontario, CanadaRegistered User regular
    Hey, there has to be a giant cast of characters that we know of, love and even love to hate.

    It'll make things all the more poignant when he starts murdering them en masse during the Apocalyptic Trilogy.

    I mean, maybe not, but I figure we're going to lose some people along the way, and Butcher'll have more than enough 'red shirts' and C/B level characters (and perhaps even an A lister or three) to sacrifice across the chapters to really indicate that shit has, truly, utterly and finally, gotten real.

    Also, let's that happen and still have a nice lengthy wrap up/"where are they now" epilogue even after racking up a significant body count.

    First they came for the Muslims, and we said NOT TODAY, MOTHERFUCKER!
  • LochielLochiel Registered User regular
    edited June 2014
    Except we won't need a "where are they now" epilogue. We know where they will be. Butcher has gone out of his way to include Graceland Cemetery time and time again. Pretty sure most ppl in the Dresdenverse are incapable of getting buried anywhere else. :D

    Lochiel on
  • ForarForar #432 Toronto, Ontario, CanadaRegistered User regular
    Nah, he won't kill off *everyone*.

    He's a Butcher, not GRRM.

    First they came for the Muslims, and we said NOT TODAY, MOTHERFUCKER!
  • KetBraKetBra Dressed Ridiculously Registered User regular
    Xeddicus wrote: »
    Well we've never seen it happen before. So we don't know what happens. It seems likely, but there's enough wiggle room for anything to be the case still. Nothing has been definitely stated.

    A lady mantle transfer?

    Sure we have. Now you could make an argument I suppose, about, uh, whats-her-face, the old summer lady being a changling, and so embracing her fey side to become a faerie when she gets the mantle.

    But in the earlier books (summer knight, as well as the one with the billy goats) Harry explicitly states that the reason there are the knights is so that the courts have a mortal dude to run about, fiddling with things. This would pretty heavily imply that it's not possible to have a Queen of the faerie who is, y'know, not a faeire.

    KGMvDLc.jpg?1
  • KetBraKetBra Dressed Ridiculously Registered User regular
    Also that would hugely fuck with everything to have a Winter Lady that could lie at will.

    KGMvDLc.jpg?1
  • KetBraKetBra Dressed Ridiculously Registered User regular
    (As seen previously :p)

    KGMvDLc.jpg?1
  • DedwrekkaDedwrekka Metal Hell adjacentRegistered User regular
    Xeddicus wrote: »
    Well, Daniel has only showed up once really. Hard to be "beloved". And Elaine has proved you can be MIA and still turn up later and it works. So having a nice supply of characters could be handy.

    He's been there a lot of times (roughly every time the kids are seen), but he was school-age for most of the series. Remember that there's roughly a year between books.
    MegaMan001 wrote: »
    Dedwrekka wrote: »
    Jayricho wrote: »
    I was actually surprised that...
    Daniel Carpenter never showed up (or was even mentioned), with all the time spent in the Carpenter household.

    He's pretty old now, I don't think he lives there anymore.

    Was I the only one having trouble keeping track of the Carpenter children? Oldest to youngest went...Molly - Daniel - Alicia (wasn't mentioned?) - Amanda / Hope / Harry Jr.?

    EDIT: Apparently according to the wiki there is another son, Matthew, but I don't remember him ever being mentioned.

    Butcher should start murdering some of these beloved characters with extreme prejudice, too many to keep track of and it sucks when you go several books without hearing from someone.

    The vast majority of characters are specialized and do things other than helping Harry, which is what makes them good characters. Forthil, for example, isn't exactly the most useful guy outside of the church and providing advice. Daniel is headstrong, but too young and naïve to really take much part. Butters is actually doing alright for himself, all things considered. Harry's kind of wary of bringing the wolf pack back into the fold because they're horribly outclassed a lot of the time.

    The characters tend to not be ubiquitous, which is good.

  • DelmainDelmain Registered User regular
    Plus Will and Georgia have a kid now, right? Georgia was pregnant after Changes, so they'd have a ~2 year old. 8~ months from Changes to Ghost Story, 6 more months from there to Cold Days, then another year until Skin Game.

  • PailryderPailryder Registered User regular
    also, remember that if anything is said in an internal harry monologue it's dubious information at best. we know his concept of how magic works is flawed so anything he talks about regarding how the FAE work is also probably grossly inaccurate (it doesn't mean he's lying or wrong, just that he's unreliable as a source that is infallible). There are probably only a handful of characters we've met that can be trusted on the information they provide about other beings.

  • KetBraKetBra Dressed Ridiculously Registered User regular
    Sure, Harry isn't always reliable, but the idea that Molly is still human has so many problems with it, the least of which is that it isn't in any way supported by the actual text.

    KGMvDLc.jpg?1
  • ForarForar #432 Toronto, Ontario, CanadaRegistered User regular
    edited June 2014
    Delmain wrote: »
    He is obviously going to order a ceramic knife for that.

    Or titanium.

    Which seems like it'd appeal to Harry, now that I think about it.

    "Is that substance named for Titania?!?"

    "Err... nope. Just some silly mortal naming thing."

    Forar on
    First they came for the Muslims, and we said NOT TODAY, MOTHERFUCKER!
  • XeddicusXeddicus Registered User regular
    KetBra wrote: »
    Sure, Harry isn't always reliable, but the idea that Molly is still human has so many problems with it, the least of which is that it isn't in any way supported by the actual text.

    Well, there's the "Fae can't harm mortals without loopholes.". Which granted that's how Molly got the Mantle, but removing someones humanity through 7 degrees of Queen of Air and Darkness is pretty drastic since she in no way actually consented to it. It also made a point that Lily was weak willed. And again fairly sure Mab wasn't always Mab. Need to track that bit down. It's very likely Molly is Fae, but there are enough loopholes for her to be not, too. And just on a story level I don't want to see Harry having 1 more thing to feel guilty about if she's not human now, even if practically speaking it makes no difference as evidenced so far.

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