Dealers do sell cars back to manufacturers. It's not a fun thing to have happen, but it does. Dealers pay a tax per unregistered (re: unsold) vehicle on their lot per month. If vehicles are not selling they A) Don't order more or Sell back their unsold inventory.
I'm gonna go ahead and let the o.p. know that there is a lot of false information floating around in this thread w/r/t diesels.
A diesel does not 'seize up' in cold weather. The fuel gels up because there is a waxy substance that thickens up at lower temperatures in regular diesel. However, in cold climates service stations supply a different grade of diesel with inhibitors in it that reduce this problem significantly.
Dealerships do not order a job lot of cars and then request a refund for a portion of them. That is pure crapola. Why? Because the dealership pays for the shipping costs of getting the cars to the showroom floor, not the manufacturer. Even if you could somehow convince the manufacturer to give you back more money than you paid for the stock (fat chance buddy, try paying $10 into a new bank account and then asking to close the account and withdraw $100), you would still lose money.
They never actually ship. The original order is only on paper and exists to allow dealers to report a higher price than they actually paid.
Sentras tend to be reliable, fuel-efficient, economical compacts. Not a bad choice if you like it. You also might like A Toyota Corolla or a Honda Civic, which are the primary competitors to the Sentra. Then there's also the Subaru Imprezza and the Hyundai Elantra, both in that class. There are American-made compact sedans, but I'm not too familiar with them.
You are NOT going to get a TDI for $15K unless it has 50K+ miles on it, even then owners do not part with them cheap and there are way fewer of them. The diesel adds at least $6K to the new cost of a car. When the Jetta TDI came out they were slapping a $5K market adjustment on top of of the sticker, so you might have to deal with shit like that.
Diesel fuel is made from premium oil (light sweet crude, which is the most expensive and most sought after type). When oil goes up in price diesel fuel tends to increase in cost faster then gasoline. There are additional maintenance costs to owning a diesel (I believe the fuel filters are more expensive), but you'll always pay less for fuel per driven mile then gas.
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jungleroomxIt's never too many graves, it's always not enough shovelsRegistered Userregular
edited May 2010
I'd go with a truck with a crewcab.
Trucks are infinitely useful machines and their gas mileage (while not up to par with their smaller car bretheren) has improved significantly. Most of them drive amazingly and are pretty easy to maintain as long as you stay on top of things from the get-go.
My 98 F-150 drives like a brand new car, and its get-up is impressive. It's a shame I'm rocking 15 mpg average, but newer big trucks like the Sierra or the Silverado top 20 mpg, and smaller trucks like the Ranger hit damn near 30 mpg on the highway.
I know the coupe is what you're looking for, and it's my opinion that anyone who only has a car has never bought furniture.
That's not absolute advice. If you're buying a car and intend on keeping it for quite some time then it makes sense to buy new.
Or if you're buying a new car that will stave off initial depreciation.
Yeah sorry, but both of these are absolutely incorrect. It's impossible to buy a new car that will stave off initial depreciation, because all new cars depreciate very quickly at the beginning and more slowly as time goes by.
For example, Nissan Sentra, around where I live, loses about 20% value in the first year alone, so that's 20% per year. Within the first 5 years of driving, it loses about 50% value total - average depreciation goes down to 10% per year.
Honestly, whoever tells you to buy a new car either has a shit-ton of money lying around themselves, or are a typical middle-class consumer (probably leasing their own car) who don't know what they are talking about. From a financial perspective, it makes far, far more sense to buy used. Even if you tell yourself "oh I'll just buy a new car and run it to the ground" you will still lose a lot of money and, in my humble opinion, the psychological benefit of "this car is mine from the day it is bought to the day it dies" is not worth thousands of dollars.
The only way I'd be able to justify buying a new car would be if a brand new feature came out that was unavailable in older models and it improved some critical aspect of the car - such as safety - by a significant amount.
ShogunHair long; money long; me and broke wizards we don't get alongRegistered Userregular
edited May 2010
It depends on the circumstances. I bought my mom a new honda fit a couple years ago and across the country the price of a brand new Fit was generally the same as one with up to 50,000 miles on it. Granted this is a $17,000 car we're talking about, but why buy used when you can get one brand new for the same price. I don't know if its still like that, but she now has 23,000 miles on hers. I know I could resell that car for the $16,000 I paid for it.
It depends on the circumstances. I bought my mom a new honda fit a couple years ago and across the country the price of a brand new Fit was generally the same as one with up to 50,000 miles on it. Granted this is a $17,000 car we're talking about, but why buy used when you can get one brand new for the same price. I don't know if its still like that, but she now has 23,000 miles on hers. I know I could resell that car for the $16,000 I paid for it.
I find that hard to believe - I did similar research for Honda Civics and Accords and didn't see anything like that.
There is enormous social pressure in our culture for new things. You want to impress your friends, neighbors, coworkers etc. with your new toys. But if you buy used, no one gets jealous, and you don't feel as satisfied either because, ewww, it's something someone used before.
It's terribly irrational and encourages people to make shitty financial decisions. After a house and an education, a car is the third biggest financial investment for most people, and only fools invest in assets that lose value over time.
There was this great infographic I found on reddit that went into the economics of car ownership. It plotted out depreciation vs. operating costs, and recommended buying a car that was 5 years old and selling it by the time it hit 10, I wish I'd have saved it cause it was cool.
If you're going to drive it til it's scrap (and it doesn't get totalled in a wreck) those first couple of years depreciation may be a wash since when buying used there's always the possibility you're buying a car whose transmission (or something) is in imminent danger of failing cause you never know how it's been maintained (people usually keep shitty records). Having a competent mechanic you trust check it out can mitigate that but the check will probably run you $100-200.
Also if you are driving in a place where they regularly salt the roads due to icing, buying a 3 year old car is likely also buying you a car that will be a rustbucket 3 years sooner then a new car. Also you can often get much more favorable financing rates for new, so depreciation really isn't the only consideration (though it's probably the largest individual consideration).
And it's not complete BS, that was the case for Fits back when gas was $4/gallon. There are weird market dislocations in the used car economy when oil is bouncing around in price, the economy is in the shitter, and the manufacturers are maintaining deep discounts/financing. KBB values my Forester as worth $900 more then when I checked about a year ago.
If you're going to drive it til it's scrap (and it doesn't get totalled in a wreck) those first couple of years depreciation may be a wash since when buying used there's always the possibility you're buying a car whose transmission (or something) is in imminent danger of failing cause you never know how it's been maintained (people usually keep shitty records). Having a competent mechanic you trust check it out can mitigate that but the check will probably run you $100-200.
Well, the trick is to never buy from people who don't keep thorough maintenance records. And even then, you want to show it to a mechanic just in case.
There was this great infographic I found on reddit that went into the economics of car ownership. It plotted out depreciation vs. operating costs, and recommended buying a car that was 5 years old and selling it by the time it hit 10, I wish I'd have saved it cause it was cool.
If you're going to drive it til it's scrap (and it doesn't get totalled in a wreck) those first couple of years depreciation may be a wash since when buying used there's always the possibility you're buying a car whose transmission (or something) is in imminent danger of failing cause you never know how it's been maintained (people usually keep shitty records). Having a competent mechanic you trust check it out can mitigate that but the check will probably run you $100-200.
Also if you are driving in a place where they regularly salt the roads due to icing, buying a 3 year old car is likely also buying you a car that will be a rustbucket 3 years sooner then a new car. Also you can often get much more favorable financing rates for new, so depreciation really isn't the only consideration (though it's probably the largest individual consideration).
And it's not complete BS, that was the case for Fits back when gas was $4/gallon. There are weird market dislocations in the used car economy when oil is bouncing around in price, the economy is in the shitter, and the manufacturers are maintaining deep discounts/financing. KBB values my Forester as worth $900 more then when I checked about a year ago.
Certain cars which are highly valued or sought after by consumers have rather high used market prices, the fit is one of these cars.
The reason Civics and Accords don't have the same residual value is that you can pretty much throw a basketball into a parking lot and hit one at random. No one is going from dealer to dealer looking for the perfect used Civic. These are Wal-Mart cars, bought en masse by people just looking for something to drive who usually ditch them for a trade in at a low price as soon as they can afford something better, wheras people actually go seek out things like Fits and hold onto them.
Edit: Even so though Civics from the last year or two with low miles on them are still going for $15000 around here from a quick edmunds search (Fits are going for 14-16k which is amazing given the retail price). I think unless you're really willing to settle for an old car (as in pre-2005 old) the benefit for the used market on cars isn't really as great as it is touted to be.
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ShogunHair long; money long; me and broke wizards we don't get alongRegistered Userregular
edited May 2010
What we need is another big gas price scare. After Katrina hit I was delivering pizzas and the cadillac dealership on the highway was selling leased cadillac CTS's for 16k. I'd give anything to go back and capitalize on that.
What we need is another big gas price scare. After Katrina hit I was delivering pizzas and the cadillac dealership on the highway was selling leased cadillac CTS's for 16k. I'd give anything to go back and capitalize on that.
Well anything with a high starting price like a luxury car is going to depreciate like crazy. I've seen year old Maserati Quattroportes for sale for $45,000.
The depreciation proof cars are cars that are low MSRP but also low volume and sought out. High volume cars have too much turnover, high MSRP cars tend to be bought by people that don't want a used car.
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Donovan PuppyfuckerA dagger in the dark isworth a thousand swords in the morningRegistered Userregular
Dealers do sell cars back to manufacturers. It's not a fun thing to have happen, but it does. Dealers pay a tax per unregistered (re: unsold) vehicle on their lot per month. If vehicles are not selling they A) Don't order more or Sell back their unsold inventory.
Who runs these dealerships? It's quite different in Western Australia. You go to the dealership, they might have two or three demos of the model you are looking at (with different setups and options, like 4 cylinder manual base model vs. 6 cylinder auto "luxury" model), and unless you ask for the one that's on the floor, you place an order and the dealership requests your specific choice from the factory.
At a very high volume dealership like the states biggest Hyundai dealership (they sell a couple of hundred cars a month), they do order job lots, but only of cars they know are popular and will sell like hotcakes, like the Getz 3 door manual. If you want something more individual (Tiburon), or an unusual option (manual Sonata), then you wait a month or two.
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Donovan PuppyfuckerA dagger in the dark isworth a thousand swords in the morningRegistered Userregular
Trucks are infinitely useful machines and their gas mileage (while not up to par with their smaller car bretheren) has improved significantly. Most of them drive amazingly and are pretty easy to maintain as long as you stay on top of things from the get-go.
My 98 F-150 drives like a brand new car, and its get-up is impressive. It's a shame I'm rocking 15 mpg average, but newer big trucks like the Sierra or the Silverado top 20 mpg, and smaller trucks like the Ranger hit damn near 30 mpg on the highway.
I know the coupe is what you're looking for, and it's my opinion that anyone who only has a car has never bought furniture.
The o.p. states that most of the cars usage will be city miles. Which makes a pick-up like an F-150 a waste of money and gas. My girlfriends Golf has a towball, and can tow over a tonne quite easily. With my dads 8x5 braked trailer behind it it still gets about 30 mpg highway.
You say your 12 year old F-150 drives like a brand new car, I recommend you go and take something like a Mazda 6 for a test drive. You will be shocked at the difference in ride, handling, NVH and refinement..
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jungleroomxIt's never too many graves, it's always not enough shovelsRegistered Userregular
edited May 2010
I know what new cars feel like to drive, but thanks for insulting my intelligence. I just rented a Golf for a pretty long road trip, and I'm telling you it's not a $20,000 difference.
Dealers do sell cars back to manufacturers. It's not a fun thing to have happen, but it does. Dealers pay a tax per unregistered (re: unsold) vehicle on their lot per month. If vehicles are not selling they A) Don't order more or Sell back their unsold inventory.
Who runs these dealerships? It's quite different in Western Australia. You go to the dealership, they might have two or three demos of the model you are looking at (with different setups and options, like 4 cylinder manual base model vs. 6 cylinder auto "luxury" model), and unless you ask for the one that's on the floor, you place an order and the dealership requests your specific choice from the factory.
At a very high volume dealership like the states biggest Hyundai dealership (they sell a couple of hundred cars a month), they do order job lots, but only of cars they know are popular and will sell like hotcakes, like the Getz 3 door manual. If you want something more individual (Tiburon), or an unusual option (manual Sonata), then you wait a month or two.
Might want to check that bit at the top about farms in australia.
If you're looking at the 15k mark, look at the new VW Golf TDI. A little more money, but an absolutely fantastic car that has critics raving everywhere.
less than 15K can get you a gently used Mercedes Benz C230 or C240 from 2000-2004 or so.
I know what new cars feel like to drive, but thanks for insulting my intelligence. I just rented a Golf for a pretty long road trip, and I'm telling you it's not a $20,000 difference.
I think he means that it feels better to drive a modern car.
I'm right here, still reading the thread and appreciating the advice.
I'll probably go car-shopping this weekend. So on Friday I'll go over the thread again from start to finish and make a list of suggested cars to test-drive.
I'm still a bit uneasy about diesel. Something that causes trouble in cold temperatures isn't attractive around here.
As for depreciation, yes I am aware of it, and that I could dodge it by buying a used car. However, I'd remind you that I know shit about car, so I'd be a very easy target to sell a crappy about-to-break-down used car to. Plus, I plan on owning this car for a very long time (my dad buys his cars new and keeps them 10-15 years), so depreciation isn't really a concern of mine.
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ShogunHair long; money long; me and broke wizards we don't get alongRegistered Userregular
edited May 2010
Well what kind of car are you really wanting? Do you just want something with wheels that drives? Do you enjoy driving? Does performance matter? I could throw suggestions at you all day but you really haven't given us a good idea of what it is you want besides a sedan around 20-25k.
Well what kind of car are you really wanting? Do you just want something with wheels that drives? Do you enjoy driving? Does performance matter? I could throw suggestions at you all day but you really haven't given us a good idea of what it is you want besides a sedan around 20-25k.
Actually, I believe I said $15-20k :P Though that will of course depend on financing options, but $25k might be pushing what I'm willing to spend for a car.
I guess I could sum it up as something with wheels that drive, has good mileage and safety ratings, is reliable enough to last for the next 10-15 years provided proper maintenance, works well in the cold, and has four doors. And of course that it looks cool.
I don't care about driving either way. I don't hate it, but I'm also not the kind of guy who'll go for a joy ride just because. Driving is just something I do because I need to get from point A to point B and walking is impractical. And walking is often impractical in this town.
I'll be doing mostly city driving. That said, my city is crisscrossed by expressways. So I would estimate 85% city driving, 15% expressway driving, and 0% highway driving. I don't need to drive to work now nor for the next year at least, so I won't be driving every day.
Performance... I assume you mean acceleration? Doesn't matter all that much to me.
If you need to know more, please ask. I'm willing to give all the information you guys need.
If you're looking at the 15k mark, look at the new VW Golf TDI. A little more money, but an absolutely fantastic car that has critics raving everywhere.
less than 15K can get you a gently used Mercedes Benz C230 or C240 from 2000-2004 or so.
The problem with buying an old Mercedes or BMW is that it's a $15,000 car, but parts and maintanence are priced like a $45,000 car.
Well what kind of car are you really wanting? Do you just want something with wheels that drives? Do you enjoy driving? Does performance matter? I could throw suggestions at you all day but you really haven't given us a good idea of what it is you want besides a sedan around 20-25k.
Actually, I believe I said $15-20k :P Though that will of course depend on financing options, but $25k might be pushing what I'm willing to spend for a car.
I guess I could sum it up as something with wheels that drive, has good mileage and safety ratings, is reliable enough to last for the next 10-15 years provided proper maintenance, works well in the cold, and has four doors. And of course that it looks cool.
I don't care about driving either way. I don't hate it, but I'm also not the kind of guy who'll go for a joy ride just because. Driving is just something I do because I need to get from point A to point B and walking is impractical. And walking is often impractical in this town.
I'll be doing mostly city driving. That said, my city is crisscrossed by expressways. So I would estimate 85% city driving, 15% expressway driving, and 0% highway driving. I don't need to drive to work now nor for the next year at least, so I won't be driving every day.
Performance... I assume you mean acceleration? Doesn't matter all that much to me.
If you need to know more, please ask. I'm willing to give all the information you guys need.
As a rule, Japanese cars are more dependable and resilient. This is partly due to how they make cars, but I tend to think a large part comes from how they tend to create new lines by modifying an existing base or "importing" a design previously limited to another market, so they've had longer to refine their products. For example, the minicars all the American producers have coming out next year are going to be buggier than the Fit and Yaris were because the Fit and Yaris are based on designs that have been used in Europe and Japan for years while the American models are brand new designs.
Honda is especially known for dependability, most likely because their founding product, the Cub, is still known for being impossible to break.
Oh yeah, try to get half-year models if possible. They're basically the round year models with patches for the bugs that were reported.
Just get something simple, common and a few years old.
Common means that there will be lots of spares floating around and every mechanic will know it like the back of his hand. Simple means there are less annoying little things go to wrong, electric adjusting seats and silly stuff like that. A few years old so that the initial massive depreciation has already hit, more important with a common car.
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Nova_CI have the needThe need for speedRegistered Userregular
edited May 2010
As someone who just went through an absolutely crazy ass winter here in Calgary, Richy, I can tell you that I will never again be without an Impreza in my life. That goddamn car was unstoppable.
Well, almost. I high centered on a snowdrift and took all four wheel off the ground. :oops:
Anyway, massive amounts of snow did not stop that car. On the first day of the first massive blizzard, I saw Lancers, Civics, Accords you name it in ditches. Not a single Impreza. I mean, it still depends on how you drive it, but the AWD as well as the stability management is pretty kick-ass for poor driving conditions.
Anyway, it's sporty, has jump and gets decent gas mileage (I tend to kick it a little harder than I need to, but on a trip to Edmonton and back I got about 800kms on a 64 liter tank). Very roomy (I'm 6' tall and when I put the seat all the way back, my feet can't touch the pedals, and I have at least a couple inches clearance from the roof of the car) and the base model is pretty feature rich for a base model.
List price is $21,500, but if you're patient and don't take anything the dealer or sales staff say at face value, you can get it for quite a bit less.
EDIT: If you have the cash up front, used is good, but if you plan on financing, I learned that no bank or dealer will finance a used car for less than 8% (At least back in late 2009). My Impreza is financed for 0.9%. Use your total payable as the cost point, not the numbers they throw around. Take your monthly payments, multiply that by the length of the loan and BAM: Actual cost. Very important you use this number as your price point, not the number they're telling you.
Oh yeah, try to get half-year models if possible. They're basically the round year models with patches for the bugs that were reported.
Unless it's a redesigned model or they are specifically introducing some new feature like an updated engine, generally little enough changes between years that this doesn't matter much.
As someone who just went through an absolutely crazy ass winter here in Calgary, Richy, I can tell you that I will never again be without an Impreza in my life. That goddamn car was unstoppable.
Well, almost. I high centered on a snowdrift and took all four wheel off the ground. :oops:
Anyway, massive amounts of snow did not stop that car. On the first day of the first massive blizzard, I saw Lancers, Civics, Accords you name it in ditches. Not a single Impreza. I mean, it still depends on how you drive it, but the AWD as well as the stability management is pretty kick-ass for poor driving conditions.
Anyway, it's sporty, has jump and gets decent gas mileage (I tend to kick it a little harder than I need to, but on a trip to Edmonton and back I got about 800kms on a 64 liter tank). Very roomy (I'm 6' tall and when I put the seat all the way back, my feet can't touch the pedals, and I have at least a couple inches clearance from the roof of the car) and the base model is pretty feature rich for a base model.
List price is $21,500, but if you're patient and don't take anything the dealer or sales staff say at face value, you can get it for quite a bit less.
EDIT: If you have the cash up front, used is good, but if you plan on financing, I learned that no bank or dealer will finance a used car for less than 8% (At least back in late 2009). My Impreza is financed for 0.9%. Use your total payable as the cost point, not the numbers they throw around. Take your monthly payments, multiply that by the length of the loan and BAM: Actual cost. Very important you use this number as your price point, not the number they're telling you.
This is a good point, if you can get zero percent or low interest financing, which still isn't off the table if you have a good credit rating, you can easilly wipe out the difference in price between a new and slightly used car.
On a 20,000 car over 5 years you're talking about 4000 dollars going from 8% to 0%.
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Dhalphirdon't you open that trapdooryou're a fool if you dareRegistered Userregular
As someone who just went through an absolutely crazy ass winter here in Calgary, Richy, I can tell you that I will never again be without an Impreza in my life. That goddamn car was unstoppable.
Well, almost. I high centered on a snowdrift and took all four wheel off the ground. :oops:
Anyway, massive amounts of snow did not stop that car. On the first day of the first massive blizzard, I saw Lancers, Civics, Accords you name it in ditches. Not a single Impreza. I mean, it still depends on how you drive it, but the AWD as well as the stability management is pretty kick-ass for poor driving conditions.
Anyway, it's sporty, has jump and gets decent gas mileage (I tend to kick it a little harder than I need to, but on a trip to Edmonton and back I got about 800kms on a 64 liter tank). Very roomy (I'm 6' tall and when I put the seat all the way back, my feet can't touch the pedals, and I have at least a couple inches clearance from the roof of the car) and the base model is pretty feature rich for a base model.
List price is $21,500, but if you're patient and don't take anything the dealer or sales staff say at face value, you can get it for quite a bit less.
EDIT: If you have the cash up front, used is good, but if you plan on financing, I learned that no bank or dealer will finance a used car for less than 8% (At least back in late 2009). My Impreza is financed for 0.9%. Use your total payable as the cost point, not the numbers they throw around. Take your monthly payments, multiply that by the length of the loan and BAM: Actual cost. Very important you use this number as your price point, not the number they're telling you.
Are you talking about the base Impreza RX or the WRX?
Because I'm pretty sure the WRX, while a fantastically amazing car, does NOT have good fuel consumption by virtue of its turbo.
As a rule, Japanese cars are more dependable and resilient. This is partly due to how they make cars, but I tend to think a large part comes from how they tend to create new lines by modifying an existing base or "importing" a design previously limited to another market, so they've had longer to refine their products. For example, the minicars all the American producers have coming out next year are going to be buggier than the Fit and Yaris were because the Fit and Yaris are based on designs that have been used in Europe and Japan for years while the American models are brand new designs.
Honda is especially known for dependability, most likely because their founding product, the Cub, is still known for being impossible to break.
Oh yeah, try to get half-year models if possible. They're basically the round year models with patches for the bugs that were reported.
That rule is mostly false nowadays.
there are still american cars that have poor reliability but there are also plenty of japanese cars especially the trucks suvs and luxury brands that are poorly made as a whole.
also, most american cars are only assembled here with many parts coming from over seas, mexico or canada. the same suppliers will make parts for japanese and american automakers.
that being said, one benefit of having an 'american' car is that the replacement parts will often cost less once it gets out of warranty but over all, it doesn't especially matter if you buy american vs japanese/korean.
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jungleroomxIt's never too many graves, it's always not enough shovelsRegistered Userregular
I know what new cars feel like to drive, but thanks for insulting my intelligence. I just rented a Golf for a pretty long road trip, and I'm telling you it's not a $20,000 difference.
I think he means that it feels better to drive a modern car.
I've never been a fan of bucket seats or car seats in general. The semi-bench in my truck makes me feel like I'm driving on a couch. If anyone hasn't been in the seat of any truck from the last 15 years, then its my duty to inform them that big trucks are what the Cadillac was in the 1970's. If thats your thing, then thats your thing.
I can see how big truck would be a detriment to city driving. If I ever moved back to a major metropolitan area I would see myself grabbing a used Honda Civic I could pay cash for (5-10k) and using mass transit whenever I didn't have to haul things back like groceries. City driving is hell on any car, and can age them significantly.
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jungleroomxIt's never too many graves, it's always not enough shovelsRegistered Userregular
Because I'm pretty sure the WRX, while a fantastically amazing car, does NOT have good fuel consumption by virtue of its turbo.
The WRX gets a hair over 15 MPG if I remember correctly. It depends on the year. It has a worse MPG rating than the new V8 5.0 Mustang, roughly the same as a V8 Camaro, V8 Toyota Tundra, and V8 4.7L F-150.
The WRX is a showy, fun, amazing car to drive, however. Just expect the gas mileage of a big-balled sports car or any of the industries mainstream big trucks.
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Nova_CI have the needThe need for speedRegistered Userregular
Because I'm pretty sure the WRX, while a fantastically amazing car, does NOT have good fuel consumption by virtue of its turbo.
The WRX gets a hair over 15 MPG if I remember correctly. It depends on the year. It has a worse MPG rating than the new V8 5.0 Mustang, roughly the same as a V8 Camaro, V8 Toyota Tundra, and V8 4.7L F-150.
The WRX is a showy, fun, amazing car to drive, however. Just expect the gas mileage of a big-balled sports car or any of the industries mainstream big trucks.
I was talking about the 2.5i naturally aspirated (Non-turbo). I can't remember what it's ratings are, but for mostly city driving I get 8L/100KM. It's a 170HP 2.5L engine, which is a sizeable 4 cylinder and the fact that it's AWD means it'll always get worse mileage than Civics or whathaveyou, so it's a give and take thing. The extra gas is worth it to me for the AWD, the better engine power and the fact that this is still the most efficient car I've ever owned anyway. :P
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jungleroomxIt's never too many graves, it's always not enough shovelsRegistered Userregular
edited May 2010
The non-turbo does fare better at a pretty decent 20 mpg city.
Imprezas are pretty fucking sweet vehicles, though. I was thinking of the STi, which is one of my personal favorite vehicles.
If you're looking at the 15k mark, look at the new VW Golf TDI. A little more money, but an absolutely fantastic car that has critics raving everywhere.
less than 15K can get you a gently used Mercedes Benz C230 or C240 from 2000-2004 or so.
The problem with buying an old Mercedes or BMW is that it's a $15,000 car, but parts and maintanence are priced like a $45,000 car.
Really a sedan is a poor choice for city driving unless you like big cars.
No one has suggested any landboats except or possibly the F-150, which is a completely different type of vehicle.
In fact most of the suggestions are compacts that have a sedan or hatch option. The sedan version may be a little longer, but I don't think anyone would call them big. They will drive very similarly and will likely have similar amounts of cargo space (the hatch may have the volume edge), so really it comes down to which profile you like the looks of more.
If you drive such that the turbo never engages (sub-3000 RPMs) you're not going to get much worse mileage than the non-turbo version, but if you're going to drive like that why get the turbo model? Richy isn't interested in performance and views cars as appliances.
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jungleroomxIt's never too many graves, it's always not enough shovelsRegistered Userregular
edited May 2010
Whoever said to buy a common car (especially if you aren't moving piles of money around looking for your keys daily) is pretty on the spot. Civics, Sentras, Mustangs, Maximas, at least in my area, tend to be around a lot more.
Not only do you have the added benefit of repair costs being cheaper, but the fact that a mechanic has probably worked on 20 of the same type of vehicle means they're more likely to do a better job at fixing it and maintaining it.
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jungleroomxIt's never too many graves, it's always not enough shovelsRegistered Userregular
No one has suggested any landboats except or possibly the F-150, which is a completely different type of vehicle.
Trucks do have utility functions that neither cars nor SUV's have. I glossed over and missed that he was going to do mostly city driving. In that case, a smaller truck (Tacoma, Ranger), hatchback, or a sedan with a good amount of cargo space would be much better.
In my lifestyle, I simply can't function with a car.
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They never actually ship. The original order is only on paper and exists to allow dealers to report a higher price than they actually paid.
You are NOT going to get a TDI for $15K unless it has 50K+ miles on it, even then owners do not part with them cheap and there are way fewer of them. The diesel adds at least $6K to the new cost of a car. When the Jetta TDI came out they were slapping a $5K market adjustment on top of of the sticker, so you might have to deal with shit like that.
Diesel fuel is made from premium oil (light sweet crude, which is the most expensive and most sought after type). When oil goes up in price diesel fuel tends to increase in cost faster then gasoline. There are additional maintenance costs to owning a diesel (I believe the fuel filters are more expensive), but you'll always pay less for fuel per driven mile then gas.
Trucks are infinitely useful machines and their gas mileage (while not up to par with their smaller car bretheren) has improved significantly. Most of them drive amazingly and are pretty easy to maintain as long as you stay on top of things from the get-go.
My 98 F-150 drives like a brand new car, and its get-up is impressive. It's a shame I'm rocking 15 mpg average, but newer big trucks like the Sierra or the Silverado top 20 mpg, and smaller trucks like the Ranger hit damn near 30 mpg on the highway.
I know the coupe is what you're looking for, and it's my opinion that anyone who only has a car has never bought furniture.
Yeah sorry, but both of these are absolutely incorrect. It's impossible to buy a new car that will stave off initial depreciation, because all new cars depreciate very quickly at the beginning and more slowly as time goes by.
For example, Nissan Sentra, around where I live, loses about 20% value in the first year alone, so that's 20% per year. Within the first 5 years of driving, it loses about 50% value total - average depreciation goes down to 10% per year.
Honestly, whoever tells you to buy a new car either has a shit-ton of money lying around themselves, or are a typical middle-class consumer (probably leasing their own car) who don't know what they are talking about. From a financial perspective, it makes far, far more sense to buy used. Even if you tell yourself "oh I'll just buy a new car and run it to the ground" you will still lose a lot of money and, in my humble opinion, the psychological benefit of "this car is mine from the day it is bought to the day it dies" is not worth thousands of dollars.
The only way I'd be able to justify buying a new car would be if a brand new feature came out that was unavailable in older models and it improved some critical aspect of the car - such as safety - by a significant amount.
http://articles.moneycentral.msn.com/SavingandDebt/SaveonaCar/the-joys-of-a-5000-dollar-used-car.aspx
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I find that hard to believe - I did similar research for Honda Civics and Accords and didn't see anything like that.
There is enormous social pressure in our culture for new things. You want to impress your friends, neighbors, coworkers etc. with your new toys. But if you buy used, no one gets jealous, and you don't feel as satisfied either because, ewww, it's something someone used before.
It's terribly irrational and encourages people to make shitty financial decisions. After a house and an education, a car is the third biggest financial investment for most people, and only fools invest in assets that lose value over time.
If you're going to drive it til it's scrap (and it doesn't get totalled in a wreck) those first couple of years depreciation may be a wash since when buying used there's always the possibility you're buying a car whose transmission (or something) is in imminent danger of failing cause you never know how it's been maintained (people usually keep shitty records). Having a competent mechanic you trust check it out can mitigate that but the check will probably run you $100-200.
Also if you are driving in a place where they regularly salt the roads due to icing, buying a 3 year old car is likely also buying you a car that will be a rustbucket 3 years sooner then a new car. Also you can often get much more favorable financing rates for new, so depreciation really isn't the only consideration (though it's probably the largest individual consideration).
And it's not complete BS, that was the case for Fits back when gas was $4/gallon. There are weird market dislocations in the used car economy when oil is bouncing around in price, the economy is in the shitter, and the manufacturers are maintaining deep discounts/financing. KBB values my Forester as worth $900 more then when I checked about a year ago.
Well, the trick is to never buy from people who don't keep thorough maintenance records. And even then, you want to show it to a mechanic just in case.
Certain cars which are highly valued or sought after by consumers have rather high used market prices, the fit is one of these cars.
The reason Civics and Accords don't have the same residual value is that you can pretty much throw a basketball into a parking lot and hit one at random. No one is going from dealer to dealer looking for the perfect used Civic. These are Wal-Mart cars, bought en masse by people just looking for something to drive who usually ditch them for a trade in at a low price as soon as they can afford something better, wheras people actually go seek out things like Fits and hold onto them.
Edit: Even so though Civics from the last year or two with low miles on them are still going for $15000 around here from a quick edmunds search (Fits are going for 14-16k which is amazing given the retail price). I think unless you're really willing to settle for an old car (as in pre-2005 old) the benefit for the used market on cars isn't really as great as it is touted to be.
Shogun Streams Vidya
Well anything with a high starting price like a luxury car is going to depreciate like crazy. I've seen year old Maserati Quattroportes for sale for $45,000.
The depreciation proof cars are cars that are low MSRP but also low volume and sought out. High volume cars have too much turnover, high MSRP cars tend to be bought by people that don't want a used car.
Who runs these dealerships? It's quite different in Western Australia. You go to the dealership, they might have two or three demos of the model you are looking at (with different setups and options, like 4 cylinder manual base model vs. 6 cylinder auto "luxury" model), and unless you ask for the one that's on the floor, you place an order and the dealership requests your specific choice from the factory.
At a very high volume dealership like the states biggest Hyundai dealership (they sell a couple of hundred cars a month), they do order job lots, but only of cars they know are popular and will sell like hotcakes, like the Getz 3 door manual. If you want something more individual (Tiburon), or an unusual option (manual Sonata), then you wait a month or two.
The o.p. states that most of the cars usage will be city miles. Which makes a pick-up like an F-150 a waste of money and gas. My girlfriends Golf has a towball, and can tow over a tonne quite easily. With my dads 8x5 braked trailer behind it it still gets about 30 mpg highway.
You say your 12 year old F-150 drives like a brand new car, I recommend you go and take something like a Mazda 6 for a test drive. You will be shocked at the difference in ride, handling, NVH and refinement..
Might want to check that bit at the top about farms in australia.
I want to hear back from the OP!
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less than 15K can get you a gently used Mercedes Benz C230 or C240 from 2000-2004 or so.
I think he means that it feels better to drive a modern car.
I'm right here, still reading the thread and appreciating the advice.
I'll probably go car-shopping this weekend. So on Friday I'll go over the thread again from start to finish and make a list of suggested cars to test-drive.
I'm still a bit uneasy about diesel. Something that causes trouble in cold temperatures isn't attractive around here.
As for depreciation, yes I am aware of it, and that I could dodge it by buying a used car. However, I'd remind you that I know shit about car, so I'd be a very easy target to sell a crappy about-to-break-down used car to. Plus, I plan on owning this car for a very long time (my dad buys his cars new and keeps them 10-15 years), so depreciation isn't really a concern of mine.
Shogun Streams Vidya
I guess I could sum it up as something with wheels that drive, has good mileage and safety ratings, is reliable enough to last for the next 10-15 years provided proper maintenance, works well in the cold, and has four doors. And of course that it looks cool.
I don't care about driving either way. I don't hate it, but I'm also not the kind of guy who'll go for a joy ride just because. Driving is just something I do because I need to get from point A to point B and walking is impractical. And walking is often impractical in this town.
I'll be doing mostly city driving. That said, my city is crisscrossed by expressways. So I would estimate 85% city driving, 15% expressway driving, and 0% highway driving. I don't need to drive to work now nor for the next year at least, so I won't be driving every day.
Performance... I assume you mean acceleration? Doesn't matter all that much to me.
If you need to know more, please ask. I'm willing to give all the information you guys need.
The problem with buying an old Mercedes or BMW is that it's a $15,000 car, but parts and maintanence are priced like a $45,000 car.
As a rule, Japanese cars are more dependable and resilient. This is partly due to how they make cars, but I tend to think a large part comes from how they tend to create new lines by modifying an existing base or "importing" a design previously limited to another market, so they've had longer to refine their products. For example, the minicars all the American producers have coming out next year are going to be buggier than the Fit and Yaris were because the Fit and Yaris are based on designs that have been used in Europe and Japan for years while the American models are brand new designs.
Honda is especially known for dependability, most likely because their founding product, the Cub, is still known for being impossible to break.
Oh yeah, try to get half-year models if possible. They're basically the round year models with patches for the bugs that were reported.
And a truck like an F-150 is a ridiculously retarded idea all around, but especially so in the city.
Go for a hot hatch like a Ford Focus, a Golf GTI, or a Mazda 3.
Common means that there will be lots of spares floating around and every mechanic will know it like the back of his hand. Simple means there are less annoying little things go to wrong, electric adjusting seats and silly stuff like that. A few years old so that the initial massive depreciation has already hit, more important with a common car.
Well, almost. I high centered on a snowdrift and took all four wheel off the ground. :oops:
Anyway, massive amounts of snow did not stop that car. On the first day of the first massive blizzard, I saw Lancers, Civics, Accords you name it in ditches. Not a single Impreza. I mean, it still depends on how you drive it, but the AWD as well as the stability management is pretty kick-ass for poor driving conditions.
Anyway, it's sporty, has jump and gets decent gas mileage (I tend to kick it a little harder than I need to, but on a trip to Edmonton and back I got about 800kms on a 64 liter tank). Very roomy (I'm 6' tall and when I put the seat all the way back, my feet can't touch the pedals, and I have at least a couple inches clearance from the roof of the car) and the base model is pretty feature rich for a base model.
List price is $21,500, but if you're patient and don't take anything the dealer or sales staff say at face value, you can get it for quite a bit less.
EDIT: If you have the cash up front, used is good, but if you plan on financing, I learned that no bank or dealer will finance a used car for less than 8% (At least back in late 2009). My Impreza is financed for 0.9%. Use your total payable as the cost point, not the numbers they throw around. Take your monthly payments, multiply that by the length of the loan and BAM: Actual cost. Very important you use this number as your price point, not the number they're telling you.
Unless it's a redesigned model or they are specifically introducing some new feature like an updated engine, generally little enough changes between years that this doesn't matter much.
This is a good point, if you can get zero percent or low interest financing, which still isn't off the table if you have a good credit rating, you can easilly wipe out the difference in price between a new and slightly used car.
On a 20,000 car over 5 years you're talking about 4000 dollars going from 8% to 0%.
Are you talking about the base Impreza RX or the WRX?
Because I'm pretty sure the WRX, while a fantastically amazing car, does NOT have good fuel consumption by virtue of its turbo.
That rule is mostly false nowadays.
there are still american cars that have poor reliability but there are also plenty of japanese cars especially the trucks suvs and luxury brands that are poorly made as a whole.
also, most american cars are only assembled here with many parts coming from over seas, mexico or canada. the same suppliers will make parts for japanese and american automakers.
that being said, one benefit of having an 'american' car is that the replacement parts will often cost less once it gets out of warranty but over all, it doesn't especially matter if you buy american vs japanese/korean.
I've never been a fan of bucket seats or car seats in general. The semi-bench in my truck makes me feel like I'm driving on a couch. If anyone hasn't been in the seat of any truck from the last 15 years, then its my duty to inform them that big trucks are what the Cadillac was in the 1970's. If thats your thing, then thats your thing.
I can see how big truck would be a detriment to city driving. If I ever moved back to a major metropolitan area I would see myself grabbing a used Honda Civic I could pay cash for (5-10k) and using mass transit whenever I didn't have to haul things back like groceries. City driving is hell on any car, and can age them significantly.
The WRX gets a hair over 15 MPG if I remember correctly. It depends on the year. It has a worse MPG rating than the new V8 5.0 Mustang, roughly the same as a V8 Camaro, V8 Toyota Tundra, and V8 4.7L F-150.
The WRX is a showy, fun, amazing car to drive, however. Just expect the gas mileage of a big-balled sports car or any of the industries mainstream big trucks.
I was talking about the 2.5i naturally aspirated (Non-turbo). I can't remember what it's ratings are, but for mostly city driving I get 8L/100KM. It's a 170HP 2.5L engine, which is a sizeable 4 cylinder and the fact that it's AWD means it'll always get worse mileage than Civics or whathaveyou, so it's a give and take thing. The extra gas is worth it to me for the AWD, the better engine power and the fact that this is still the most efficient car I've ever owned anyway. :P
Imprezas are pretty fucking sweet vehicles, though. I was thinking of the STi, which is one of my personal favorite vehicles.
No one has suggested any landboats except or possibly the F-150, which is a completely different type of vehicle.
In fact most of the suggestions are compacts that have a sedan or hatch option. The sedan version may be a little longer, but I don't think anyone would call them big. They will drive very similarly and will likely have similar amounts of cargo space (the hatch may have the volume edge), so really it comes down to which profile you like the looks of more.
If you drive such that the turbo never engages (sub-3000 RPMs) you're not going to get much worse mileage than the non-turbo version, but if you're going to drive like that why get the turbo model? Richy isn't interested in performance and views cars as appliances.
Not only do you have the added benefit of repair costs being cheaper, but the fact that a mechanic has probably worked on 20 of the same type of vehicle means they're more likely to do a better job at fixing it and maintaining it.
Trucks do have utility functions that neither cars nor SUV's have. I glossed over and missed that he was going to do mostly city driving. In that case, a smaller truck (Tacoma, Ranger), hatchback, or a sedan with a good amount of cargo space would be much better.
In my lifestyle, I simply can't function with a car.