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So... I think I need to take my ex to court.
Oi-
Registered User regular
Registered User regular
Gosh this is so embarrassing (and a bit of a read, sorry!).
I was in a really bad relationship with a really needy, lazy guy. For six years (we were high school sweethearts). We had an apartment together for about two years and agreed to split things exactly equally since we made practically the same wage.
He payed the rent all of twice the whole time, I always wrote the checks for it and other bills and he'd pay me back, only usually not. There was never a time that he didn't owe me money, and a good majority of the time that was a four figure amount.
His computer crashed and I bought him a new one, with all the best hardware since he insisted that he be able to play Crysis on it, and that put him at about $1,500 in debt to me. And then he got fired from his job. He remained jobless for the next eight months, and grew progressively insecure and moody despite my trying to cheer him up.
I was trying my best to pick up shifts to pay our bills, and I find out later that when people from work would call me to see if I could take their hours he thought I was secretly arranging dates with other men and took my supposed "cheating" as a green light to steal money out of my account that I was using to support us.
I found this out when I went to go pay our bills one month and saw that I had $6 in my name.
So if you can't guess what happens next I broke up with him and waited until the lease was out *which was only a few weeks) and moved out.
He became a sobbing, clingy mess who would wait for me to get out of work and read me letters he had written to me while I was trying to back out with my car. He'd leave things at the door of my new place. He tried to propose a few times too before I had to tell him he was scaring me and to leave me alone.
I did have to call him a few times trying to get my money (which was around $8,000 now) and it was always a very uncomfortable conversation filled with excuses of why he couldn't pay me right now, even though he had a job, but he was going to pay me back for sure. Then he's ask to hang out and try to tell me about his day and such.
So I told him to call me when he had any money to spare, even $5. I haven't heard from him since.
This was about a year and a half ago, at least.
At the time that I started keeping track, I wasn't saving any proof of what he owed me because he always eventually gave me money, I didn't think it would be a big deal. Even at the end of our relationship I always believed that no matter what, he'd pay me back because he had some integrity.
So I never saved proof of our bills, or what he payed me. It's all just written in a notebook in pen. :oops:
I've done my best to get over this, pick myself up from a zero bank number. I just closed on a house earlier this month and I'm happy to be finally moving on with my life.
But I still want my money. That's a half of a year's pay for me, which is depressing in itself.
I've attempted to contact him by phone, both his cell and his family's house. Just leaving messages saying that I'm trying to get in touch with him and that it's important that he call me back, but no one does.
So, I probably have to take legal action, but never thinking I'd be in this situation I have no idea what to do. I'm very ill-prepared.
The only evidence I have that he claims that this is a debt that he needs to pay is a post on a forum he made a while ago. Is this admissible as evidence?
http://forums.anandtech.com/showthread.php?t=246255&highlight=
How do I proceed, legally?
I was in a really bad relationship with a really needy, lazy guy. For six years (we were high school sweethearts). We had an apartment together for about two years and agreed to split things exactly equally since we made practically the same wage.
He payed the rent all of twice the whole time, I always wrote the checks for it and other bills and he'd pay me back, only usually not. There was never a time that he didn't owe me money, and a good majority of the time that was a four figure amount.
His computer crashed and I bought him a new one, with all the best hardware since he insisted that he be able to play Crysis on it, and that put him at about $1,500 in debt to me. And then he got fired from his job. He remained jobless for the next eight months, and grew progressively insecure and moody despite my trying to cheer him up.
I was trying my best to pick up shifts to pay our bills, and I find out later that when people from work would call me to see if I could take their hours he thought I was secretly arranging dates with other men and took my supposed "cheating" as a green light to steal money out of my account that I was using to support us.
I found this out when I went to go pay our bills one month and saw that I had $6 in my name.
So if you can't guess what happens next I broke up with him and waited until the lease was out *which was only a few weeks) and moved out.
He became a sobbing, clingy mess who would wait for me to get out of work and read me letters he had written to me while I was trying to back out with my car. He'd leave things at the door of my new place. He tried to propose a few times too before I had to tell him he was scaring me and to leave me alone.
I did have to call him a few times trying to get my money (which was around $8,000 now) and it was always a very uncomfortable conversation filled with excuses of why he couldn't pay me right now, even though he had a job, but he was going to pay me back for sure. Then he's ask to hang out and try to tell me about his day and such.
So I told him to call me when he had any money to spare, even $5. I haven't heard from him since.
This was about a year and a half ago, at least.
At the time that I started keeping track, I wasn't saving any proof of what he owed me because he always eventually gave me money, I didn't think it would be a big deal. Even at the end of our relationship I always believed that no matter what, he'd pay me back because he had some integrity.
So I never saved proof of our bills, or what he payed me. It's all just written in a notebook in pen. :oops:
I've done my best to get over this, pick myself up from a zero bank number. I just closed on a house earlier this month and I'm happy to be finally moving on with my life.
But I still want my money. That's a half of a year's pay for me, which is depressing in itself.
I've attempted to contact him by phone, both his cell and his family's house. Just leaving messages saying that I'm trying to get in touch with him and that it's important that he call me back, but no one does.
So, I probably have to take legal action, but never thinking I'd be in this situation I have no idea what to do. I'm very ill-prepared.
The only evidence I have that he claims that this is a debt that he needs to pay is a post on a forum he made a while ago. Is this admissible as evidence?
http://forums.anandtech.com/showthread.php?t=246255&highlight=
How do I proceed, legally?
Oi- on
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https://medium.com/@alascii
if you know his address ,send him a letter maybe.
this is important too. that's theft if his name wasn't on the account.
Only $600, which is a lot, but not a significant portion.
I think he lives with his parents, but I wouldn't know since I haven't heard from him in so long.
I also have no idea if his parents still live in the same house, for the same reason.
The burden of proof will be on you, but courts make decisions every day just based on people's word and who is more believable. Additionally, he might just admit it if it means he doesn't charged criminally and potentially go to prison for the theft part.
e~ a quick google says : http://www.expertlaw.com/library/limitations_by_state/Minnesota.html : possibly 2 years.
Additionally, your lawyer might make the case that you were expecting repayment until a year after the last time you brought this up or something like that, so you've only been ticking on the statute for less than a year.
In any case, I would go see a lawyer like tomorrow if I were you.
The major concern with your case is:
1) You don't know the exact amount he owes you, and the exact amount he paid back.
2) Does the rental agreement have both your names on it? If it only have your name on it, you should be the only one paying for rent. Ofcourse there's always verbal agreement but you'll have a hard time finding backup to prove that he did agree to the split rent arrangement.
3) You bought him a new computer... it's a gift, and therefore you can't claim money back for it because you gave it to him freely.
4) How did he managed to take money from your account(assuming it's not joint name)? This is important because This isn't civil.. Stealing money from your account is criminal and again, depend on the law, you have up to a certain period of time to report. THIS you can probably nail him for and he'll end up in jail and somehow, either through the bank or from whatever money he still has, will be credited back to you. You should go to your bank about this and say you discovered some unauthorized transactions on your account.
Chances are it's a lesson learned... and that's why even some married couple split their finances and have perm-ups. Reading over what you wrote, describing him as a lazy slob, who stalks you, assumes you cheated on him, AND stole money from you... and you still expect him to have integrity to pay you back? I hate to be harsh, but you really need to look out for yourself first and don't let anyone use you like that. You just have to recognize how people are and disassociate before you got into the hole you now find yourself in.
Personally I'll take what I can from this.. learn to protect yourself a little more, take care of your finances, and if he does eventually showed up with some money it'll be a bonus.
1. I do know the exact amount, and what he paid and when, it's all written down. I was just generalizing because I don't want to get the notebook out and be all depressed about it.
2. It did have both of our names, yes.
3. I bought him a new computer on the conditions that he pay me back. It was not a gift by any means.
4. I did go to the bank, and I talked to them extensively about this, and they didn't understand what I wanted, which was pictures from the ATM of him doing it. He had my card number because I started making him do errands while he was home all day, like grocery shopping and cleaning. I wrongly thought that he was trustworthy enough as he'd give me the receipts. I didn't know that he was withdrawing money for himself after he took it out for us. Because he had my pin number the bank wouldn't return the funds, as it should be, because I was the goof that gave him my pin.
I'm not the doormat who dated him anymore, so lesson very much learned. I guess my reasoning for thinking he'd pay me back was that he had to have some sort of redeeming quality. I'm not in trouble of winding up in the same situation, I just want to clean up what happened when I did.
A registered letter sounds like a very good idea.
On the bright side, if u have actual records (yes, a pen written notebook counts), u might sneak this by IRS and write it off as a bad debt expense on your 2011 tax return.
I'd suggest you try the letter and then if you don't get anything, let it go. What's the saying? "The best revenge is a life lived well". Take satisfaction in the fact that you've managed to recover so well from this and move on.
Both of our names were on the rental lease. The checking account was mine alone. Sorry, I should have made that more clear.
Thank you for the advice. I am prepared for the reality that I might not get my money back, but I'm still going to try for it because dammit, I worked for it!
Huh, I was not aware of this, thanks!
1) Do you have proof (copies of checks, IOUs, etc) that you gave him the money and that it was a loan not a gift? Any emails or texts or voicemails saying he'll pay you back? This goes for any of the money he owes you.
3) See 1.
4) You should have filed a police report. No, the bank is not going to just give you camera footage and understandably so. It might be too late to do this now, I don't know. They might say because you gave him the pin you authorized him to access your account, again, I have no idea. You may as well explore the option though.
You can file in small claims but make sure you have receipts and proof and everything lined up for when you go to court. He said/ she said with a notebook written by you isn't going to get your money back. The upside is that if they determine he does owe part but not all they can still award you the part they feel you are owed. So don't give up.
Also do not try to sneak things by the IRS. Talk to an accountant if you think this is possible but I doubt it.
Personally, I would pursue small claims before the IRS, because if the IRS audits you they really won't care about your story and will simply take the money you otherwise owe them. A judge at least would listen to you.
Talk to a lawyer (a free and/or cheap one) to see if you have any case, and what the process is (many small claims courts don't allow attorneys to be present). Most likely you will file in small claims and then a summons will be issued to Mr Ex, and then you will both show up in court and argue your sides if your case is heard. While you have the specific debts written down and that doesn't seem like much, you can probably dig through your bank receipts and other expenses to see, for example, what your bank account was before and after purchasing him a $1500 computer, to show that yes, these expenses actually occurred and you paid them in good faith. Go through them before filing a claim to match up as much as you can. Anything you ordered online may have sent you a receipt in the mail, for example. If you show the statement from your bank showing that it was emptied, that's pretty damning evidence, even if the purpose is based on your word. He can still say "Your honor I did not take any money from her, we dated and I paid her back," but personally I'd find it odd how someone would empty their bank account for no apparent reason right before breaking up with a person (see how it connects?).
But yeah, small claims is what you're looking for and you should read up on the details in your particular county/district.
Okay I think you are kind of fucked as far as the law is concerned.
So then your options are:
1. scare him into paying as much of that debt back as he can.
2. Appeal to his good side
3. Wait till he gets rich and famous and then he will definitely pay back what you owe
4. let it go
Honestly if he is as much of a loser as he sounds I doubt he has anything even close to the money he owes you. He also probably doesn't consider the money that he withdrew from your account debt because he is a dick.
So I would either make as much legal noise as possible and hope that he freaks out and pays back as much as he can. I have no idea how much it would cost to make him think he is going to get sued or if he would fight it or whatever but it might cost a lot.
or I would try and re-establish a friendship with him and when you guys are on good terms appeal to his sense of decency. This option kind of sucks but it might work.
https://medium.com/@alascii
CUZ THERE'S SOMETHING IN THE MIDDLE AND IT'S GIVING ME A RASH
1. No, I don't have emails or voice mail or texts on that subject, unfortunately. That forum post is the only place I can find written proof of him claiming the debt.
4. Yes, I should have, but ironically I didn't want to mess up his life. At the time the banker I was speaking to said that I could have them, but my request got lost in translation somewhere and they kept calling me telling me that I couldn't claim the money that he took, even though I never asked for it.
Yes, thank you, I will try for any amount.
He used your ATM card to get access to your accounts? And he is NOT a co-owner on them?
Two possiblities.
1) He stole your card and guessed your PIN (or knew it somehow w/o your permission). In this case, the bank will probably cover you if you file a claim.
2) He took your card and knew your pin because you told him. Honestly, I don't know how he could have guessed it, unless it was really obvious (or he stole your diary or something). Most financial institutions waive any liability if it turns out you gave away the card/PIN, or were willfully negligent. Nonetheless it IS theft, so file a police report.
Also, getting statements on the account should be as easy as asking for them, so get those ASAP.
I used to work as a Teller for a bank... and no... Apogee, if you gave someone the pin and he took all your cash, the bank won't get involved.
That's what I said... if the PIN was given away, you're SOL. If he guessed/stole it, there's a case for coverage.
The computer looks like a gift. If he didn't write any IOU's then it is a gift for all intents and purposes.
As for the theft ... you could have got him in trouble, but you gave him your PIN, and he had access to your account, so how can you prove it was not authorised by you? Even if you had a photo of him taking it out the ATM it would be worthless as he could just say you asked him to, as you had before. The judge/police will have no way of knowing whether he is a deadbeat or you are a vengeful ex making up stuff for revenge, especially since you waited so long to report it.
But don't take my word for it. Ring the police on their non-emergency number. They will be able to tell you if it is worth pursuing the theft.
NEVER EVER give someone your PIN. My hubby doesn't know my PIN, and I trust him with my life.
A lawyer will do an initial consultation for free to see if you have a case worth pursuing, so you can try that. But what are the odds of this deadbeat having money to pay you even if the judgement goes in your favour?
You could try going round his house (with friends for safety and witnesses!) and persuading him to sign an IOU promising to pay it back before such-and-such a date. Don't mention legal action. Then, when he does not pay it back you have a piece of paper signed by him and witnessed by your friends, to take to small claims court. I dunno whether this would stand up though, but it's better than what you've got now.
This is the crux of it, if you give out your PIN you waive any insurance from the bank.
And unless teh computer agreement is in writing.. I think you're out a lot of cash, sorry
Also, it does not matter if you gave him your card and your pin to your account. If I have a safe sitting open with money in it, it does not make it free money, nor is it free money if I were to tell someone the combination. He stole from you and you are very likely to get a judgment that he must pay that money. Next time file a police report though when someone steals from you.
but they're listening to every word I say
You can also hire an attorney to represent you in Minnesota, although you should consult with them as mentioned above before hiring one blindly. Since you've stated that you don't really have much evidence, do you have any witnesses or anything?
I was sued because she claimed I owned her my share of the rent, AND the other roommates rent because I was friends with them. Now, first off she the judge quickly told her that she couldn't sue me for the rent of the other roommate for obvious reasons. Being a friend doesn't exactly make me responsible for them in any way.
So as for the rent on my behalf, I would either pay the ex with cash, or subtract from the money she owed me for a laptop and she would make the checks out to the renting company. This was stupid on my part because I had no real proof that I paid rent, the judge would have likely made me pay her the money. However, even though I didn't have receipts or anything about the rent. When the ex moved out she made me sign a letter that mentioned any other money I'd owe her. The only money mentioned on the letter was her half of the security deposit. So because I had proof of the laptop cost and her saying that she was to pay the cost of the laptop back, she wasn't able to sue me for any of the money.
So if you want to sue your ex, and increase the chances that you will win. You'll want to not make the same mistakes. So I'd suggest making sure you have all the rent receipts or your online backing receipts showing that you paid the full amount of rent. It will be up to your ex to prove that he paid you. As for the computer, like others are saying unless you have proof that you bought it not as a gift the judge will most likely find in his favor for that part. Although the forum post you mentioned might be enough proof. Also I hope that the computer wasn't bought around his birthday or any other sort of special date. If so even with the forum post he could say it was a gift for that special date.
He's pretty much just a whiny loser. I think I actually remember that post from when it happened, and it's nice to finally see the other side.
OP: You're probably not going to get anything out of this, but good luck.
You are very unlikely to see any money from him. If you're lucky, you won't see him, either.
Either do everything your going to do in the next month and drop it or drop it right now. Because trust me it's way easier and probably better for you to make another $8000 doing something that makes you happy.
It's a gift.
You don't give a person who is jobless and who you have a relationship with a brand new computer with top of the line components and expect him to pay you back even if he said he would. For a debt to be enforceable, you must have reasonable expectations of debt payment. If your SO was falling back on rent, utilities and other bills, had no job and didn't have enough money to repair his computer, you can't really expect him to pay you back. The fact that you gave him a top of the line computer, instead of an economic one, only compounds it. The fact that he was your SO compounds it even more.
Hey I'll give you this Ferrari, just promise you'll pay me back later huh? It doesn't work like that
It's your fault.
You are going to have a very hard time proving your other demands though. He said/She said is hearsay and a notebook won't help you.
Lesson learned
If you decide to pursue this, I suggest you calm your emotions and state facts. Small claims courts don't take too well on melodrama
FREAKY.
Anyway . . . IANAL, but I've seen some cases on Judge Judy that don't seem too far off of your scenario, and the slacking party was forced to pay at least some money. So maybe you can get your money back, or at least part of it. So, if you do want to pursue this, my suggestion is to get all your ducks in a row as far as documenting how much the rent was each month, get copies of your bank statements, and when he started not paying you. Have the computer costs/receipts too, but be ready to separate them out from the other costs if the judge says "no go" on that. Stay calm and factual in court, leave out anything that isn't relevant to your ex owing money/not paying.
Whatever you decide to do, good luck.
At the least, it's worth a try, no?
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He wasn't jobless at the time (which is what I said in my first post. Bought him computer, THEN he loses his job), so my expectations of him paying me back weren't some crazy fantasy, really.
And also, I am calm? Not quite sure where I gave the impression that I wasn't.
He has payed me a grand total of $60 after the break-up, which one of my friends did witness. I don't believe any words were exchanged on our part, I just told my friend that he'd be dropping by to pay me some of the money he owed and then he did. Unfortunately he payed in cash.
Man, I wish. I do like his parents as people, but not as parents. They never really made him do anything and I suspect, having seen the way they handle adversity that their other kids have faced, that they'd be very unlikely to 'take my side' as it were. Also a reason that I don't really wanna just show up at their door. He's also pretty fantastic at wording things so that they aren't his fault, and I'm not sure what he's told them about our breakup.
Good advice, thanks. Dragging it out would be fantastically stressful.