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on drinking

cajgarbcajgarb Registered User regular
edited January 2007 in Help / Advice Forum
this is my first time posting after about two years of lurking, and I've seen a lot of real problems solved in H&A. since I've got a big one of my own now, and after years of emotional stress, I've decided something must be done (short of therapy i guess. a forum post certainly isn't a last resort). before i go into this i ought to say that a good portion of you will disagree with my opinions on this and thats ok, i don't think any less of you for disagreeing and i hope that is mutual. i do hope that doesn't get in the way of my getting help, though.

anyway, the issue is alcohol. and to an extent other drugs. mostly alcohol. i know i am hardly unique in that a large portion of my family are alcoholics. there are always a lot of emotions surrounding alcoholism, seeing marriages torn apart and jobs lost, my cousins separated from their parents. I'm far from being the worst off in this regard, but it just serves as a set up. my nuclear and extended families on both sides drink, publicly and privately, to the point of seriously injuring themselves.

i've never wanted to drink myself, but i didn't look down on it until i started dating. my first girlfriend was a very curious person and so she would often drink, which really bothered me. eventually the drinking led to worse things like drugs and, well, cheating on me. and i know this is a terrible miss-representation of people who drink, but i guess it really stuck with me.

my current girlfriend, with whom i have been for two years (we're both 18 and in high school), now feels very dissatisfied with our relationship and wants to go clubbing and drinking with the people who have been my only friends since middle school.

i guess my problem is that i am incredibly upset regarding her drinking. to compound that, i am paradoxically very staunch on my position against drinking, and yet very unsure of myself and my own opinions. i feel they are unjustified in some way.

oh hell this all seems very immature to post about, you've all always struck me as being either adults or far more mature people than myself. if it helps you help me i can expand on any of what I've written. maybe i don't even have a problem. it might even just be nice to know someone understands, or would even bother to read this damn long thing. thanks anyway, H&A.

cajgarb on
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    LibrarianLibrarian The face of liberal fascism Registered User regular
    edited January 2007
    So it's not you that has a drug/drinking problem but just yur girlfriend, is that right?

    I would not advice you to take it easy and get drunk or try anything yourself because of your family history, I don't think that you are doing anything wrong.

    But you probably should not be with that girl, if she values drugs and alcohol more than you it's definitely not worth it and it sounds like she is treating you badly(getting drunk/drugged is no excuse for cheating).

    So, dump her, no matter how hard it is, you can not "fix" her if she does not want help and in the long run things will only get worse for you.

    Librarian on
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    cajgarbcajgarb Registered User regular
    edited January 2007
    hey thanks for the quick reply. sorry if this wasn't clear, but i have actually had two girlfriends. the drug user/cheater, and my current girlfriend who used to drink and would like to drink now. she has been sober for two years, with maybe one or two exceptions, but she feels trapped and held back by me now. she has tried to change for me, as much as it hurts me to think that i might be unintentionally trying to change her. anyway, its tough for me to blame her because she has made a long term, legitimate attempt to change for me.

    cajgarb on
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    LibrarianLibrarian The face of liberal fascism Registered User regular
    edited January 2007
    Oh sorry, my bad.

    Well in that case, how hard was she drinking before she quit?

    If she was a "social drinker", only drank at parties and just wants to have fun every now and then you should probably not try to stop her, because that is just what a lot people do that don't develop a serious drinking problem.

    Just go out with her, have some fun and let her drink a few, you can be the designated driver or just hang around if drinking is an absolute no for you.

    If she had problems to control her drinking in the past, that is a different story and might complicate things.

    But you should let her try if she feels that she is missing out, maybe you will learn to relax if she proves to be responsible about her drinking.

    Librarian on
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    cajgarbcajgarb Registered User regular
    edited January 2007
    ah, thats what i almost feared would be the logical conclusion. i'm so afraid of her drinking though. no, she wasn't alcoholic before we started dating, but she drank only privately to deal with stress, which to me seems like its leaning in the direction of alcoholism. her family has a history of alcoholism, as well. it could be that i'm making a mountain out of a molehill, as she is only my second girlfriend and not the only fish in the sea and all that. thanks for the replies and the suggestions.

    cajgarb on
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    Seattle ThreadSeattle Thread Registered User regular
    edited January 2007
    Hold the fuck up. No one is an alcoholic at eighteen... they may have that trait which will affect them later in life, but I refuse to believe that someone can be a full blown alcohol addict at that age.

    Why? Because I've see some of the most insane party animals turn coat and become upstanding citizens seemingly overnight. I've also seen the most uptight prude become actual alcoholics (where they lose their job and loved ones). And... you're teenagers. You are at the stages of your life where you're asserting your independance over your authority figures, and getting good and fucked-up is a part of that.

    Is it a healthy part of that? Hell no. Excessive drinking in any circumstance is not good for you. But unless one experiences the consequences for themselves, they will never learn. To a lot of people, it means being wasted throughout the later teenage years... but give her a failed relationship or a blown career opportunity due to alcohol before you label her as an alcoholic.

    I admire your clarity, and the acknowledgement of your family's history, but it does not give you the right to pass judgement on others, because they decide to participate in things that all their peers do. Especially if you feel unsure of your own feelings--if you can't stand your ground, how can you back up your position?

    You either need to accept what she's doing as normal teenage behaviour, or you need to move on. Stop with the self-righteous bit, it will only drive her or anyone else away.

    Seattle Thread on
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    Blake TBlake T Do you have enemies then? Good. That means you’ve stood up for something, sometime in your life.Registered User regular
    edited January 2007
    It's her life, as much as she values her opinions she gets to make mistakes.

    Anyway you are afraid of her becoming an alcoholic, she really hasn't shown many signs. Especially since she has never gone drinking properly before. Just go out with her. As much as you'd like her not to make mistakes their her mistakes to make. If she starts becoming an alcoholic then talk to her, but telling her how to live her life shouldn't be done.

    Blake T on
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    MarathonMarathon Registered User regular
    edited January 2007
    If your girlfriend does not have problems with alcohol I don't see why you would want to stop her so badly. She is not the girlfriend that cheated on you after using alcohol and drugs and she should not be treated like she is. The mistakes made by someone in the past should not be held against her, it's just unfair.

    If she wants to party, just go with her and hang out. Like you said, she is going to be doing it with your friends. It's probably better that she is going with them and not a bunch of random dudes that don't care about you in the least.

    You may be against drinking, but as long as she respects your choice on the subject you should respect hers.

    Marathon on
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    ViolentChemistryViolentChemistry __BANNED USERS regular
    edited January 2007
    Gee, you won't let her go out and try to control what she does and doesn't do with her own body and yet she's dissatisfied with the relationship? I can't imagine what's wrong with her, you're clearly doing everything right!

    ViolentChemistry on
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    LibrarianLibrarian The face of liberal fascism Registered User regular
    edited January 2007
    Gee, you won't let her go out and try to control what she does and doesn't do with her own body and yet she's dissatisfied with the relationship? I can't imagine what's wrong with her, you're clearly doing everything right!

    Sheesh, give him a break, if he has a family history of heavy drinkers and alcohol related fuckups I can understand his concern, though of course he worries too much about his girlfriend.

    Librarian on
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    ViolentChemistryViolentChemistry __BANNED USERS regular
    edited January 2007
    Librarian wrote:
    Gee, you won't let her go out and try to control what she does and doesn't do with her own body and yet she's dissatisfied with the relationship? I can't imagine what's wrong with her, you're clearly doing everything right!

    Sheesh, give him a break, if he has a family history of heavy drinkers and alcohol related fuckups I can understand his concern, though of course he worries too much about his girlfriend.
    I have a family history of alcoholism and many of my friends have made fuckups while they were under the influence of alcohol and I had to live with an alcoholic for a full year who is to the point where withdrawals would actually kill her and as such she's drunk her entire life now, she can't quit even if she wanted to, and it hasn't blinded me to reality. Reality is that a family history of alcoholism doesn't make you an alcoholic by default, nor does periodically going out with friends and having a couple drinks. And drugs (including alcohol) don't make people do jack shit, people just use them as an excuse. They're still the one making their decisions, not the drug. There's a thing called moderation that no one seems to have heard of anymore, straightedge vs addict is a retarded and blatantly insulting false-dichotomy.

    Edit: Oh, and most importantly, he doesn't have any right whatsoever to be trying to make his girlfriend's decisions for her. Doing so is a great way to convince people they don't want to be with you, though, if that's what he's after.

    ViolentChemistry on
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    DrezDrez Registered User regular
    edited January 2007
    Despite VC's sarcasm, he is right.

    You cannot and should not try to control your girlfriend. A relationship involving forced behavior/control from one party and the accompanying ill-will toward said party from the other party is either equally bad as or worse than a relationship that alcoholism affects. Trust me. You may have been exposed to and have witnessed many relationships ruined by alcoholism, but I've witnessed relationships torn apart by "control issues," and that's just as bad if not worse. If you don't like who she becomes after she starts drinking, dump her. You can only control your own actions in the relationship. You can and should provide her with your opinion, perhaps, but there is no such thing as "putting one's foot down" anymore, not over personal issues such as a desire to consume or not consume alcohol.

    Drez on
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    EndomaticEndomatic Registered User regular
    edited January 2007
    Reality is that a family history of alcoholism doesn't make you an alcoholic by default

    I can attest to this personally. My family is full of alcoholics. When I turned 19, I started doing all the stupid clubbing bullshit like every weekend. Then it got old and I stopped. I also stopped drinking completely. Now I'll maybe have some vodka or beer like once a month.

    It really varies from person to person.

    Hell, even my current life situation is absolutely shitty, but I still don't feel the need to drink all the time.

    Endomatic on
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    LibrarianLibrarian The face of liberal fascism Registered User regular
    edited January 2007
    Librarian wrote:
    Gee, you won't let her go out and try to control what she does and doesn't do with her own body and yet she's dissatisfied with the relationship? I can't imagine what's wrong with her, you're clearly doing everything right!

    Sheesh, give him a break, if he has a family history of heavy drinkers and alcohol related fuckups I can understand his concern, though of course he worries too much about his girlfriend.
    I have a family history of alcoholism and many of my friends have made fuckups while they were under the influence of alcohol and I had to live with an alcoholic for a full year who is to the point where withdrawals would actually kill her and as such she's drunk her entire life now, she can't quit even if she wanted to, and it hasn't blinded me to reality. Reality is that a family history of alcoholism doesn't make you an alcoholic by default, nor does periodically going out with friends and having a couple drinks. And drugs (including alcohol) don't make people do jack shit, people just use them as an excuse. They're still the one making their decisions, not the drug. There's a thing called moderation that no one seems to have heard of anymore, straightedge vs addict is a retarded and blatantly insulting false-dichotomy.

    Edit: Oh, and most importantly, he doesn't have any right whatsoever to be trying to make his girlfriend's decisions for her. Doing so is a great way to convince people they don't want to be with you, though, if that's what he's after.

    Actually I completely agree with what you had to say, just don't be so angry all the time ;)
    He is young and worries too much and yes his behaviour is not ok but he is doing it with best intentions(yes I know road to hell paved with that yadda yadda)

    Librarian on
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    DrezDrez Registered User regular
    edited January 2007
    Librarian wrote:
    Librarian wrote:
    Gee, you won't let her go out and try to control what she does and doesn't do with her own body and yet she's dissatisfied with the relationship? I can't imagine what's wrong with her, you're clearly doing everything right!

    Sheesh, give him a break, if he has a family history of heavy drinkers and alcohol related fuckups I can understand his concern, though of course he worries too much about his girlfriend.
    I have a family history of alcoholism and many of my friends have made fuckups while they were under the influence of alcohol and I had to live with an alcoholic for a full year who is to the point where withdrawals would actually kill her and as such she's drunk her entire life now, she can't quit even if she wanted to, and it hasn't blinded me to reality. Reality is that a family history of alcoholism doesn't make you an alcoholic by default, nor does periodically going out with friends and having a couple drinks. And drugs (including alcohol) don't make people do jack shit, people just use them as an excuse. They're still the one making their decisions, not the drug. There's a thing called moderation that no one seems to have heard of anymore, straightedge vs addict is a retarded and blatantly insulting false-dichotomy.

    Edit: Oh, and most importantly, he doesn't have any right whatsoever to be trying to make his girlfriend's decisions for her. Doing so is a great way to convince people they don't want to be with you, though, if that's what he's after.

    Actually I completely agree with what you had to say, just don't be so angry all the time ;)
    He is young and worries too much and yes his behaviour is not ok but he is doing it with best intentions(yes I know road to hell paved with that yadda yadda)

    I only agree with limed quote insofar as we are only talking about alcohol. There really is no middle ground, in my opinion, between addict and "straightedge" for various other drugs, and even for non-addicts of something like, say, Cocaine or X (or E or whatever those crazy kids are calling it nowadays), I'd still say that any use is bad. Period.

    For alcohol, though, there is a very large middle ground, but that's more or less where it ends (pot too, maybe). There is such a thing as social drinking, but there really isn't any such thing as social snorting, sorry. There's really nothing to debate there, and it isn't retarded to argue the straightedge side when you are talking about anything beyond alcohol or pot.

    In fact, I would even lump cigarettes in with the X, Cocaine, etc. group and not the alcohol/pot group.

    edit: I'm sure VC is talking about alcohol only, but his last couple of sentences sounded too general.

    Drez on
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    satansfingerssatansfingers Registered User regular
    edited January 2007
    if you're so opposed to having your significant other go for a drink every now and again you're going to have a very difficult time finding a healthy relationship by the time you hit college.

    satansfingers on
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    ViolentChemistryViolentChemistry __BANNED USERS regular
    edited January 2007
    Drez wrote:
    Librarian wrote:
    Librarian wrote:
    Gee, you won't let her go out and try to control what she does and doesn't do with her own body and yet she's dissatisfied with the relationship? I can't imagine what's wrong with her, you're clearly doing everything right!

    Sheesh, give him a break, if he has a family history of heavy drinkers and alcohol related fuckups I can understand his concern, though of course he worries too much about his girlfriend.
    I have a family history of alcoholism and many of my friends have made fuckups while they were under the influence of alcohol and I had to live with an alcoholic for a full year who is to the point where withdrawals would actually kill her and as such she's drunk her entire life now, she can't quit even if she wanted to, and it hasn't blinded me to reality. Reality is that a family history of alcoholism doesn't make you an alcoholic by default, nor does periodically going out with friends and having a couple drinks. And drugs (including alcohol) don't make people do jack shit, people just use them as an excuse. They're still the one making their decisions, not the drug. There's a thing called moderation that no one seems to have heard of anymore, straightedge vs addict is a retarded and blatantly insulting false-dichotomy.

    Edit: Oh, and most importantly, he doesn't have any right whatsoever to be trying to make his girlfriend's decisions for her. Doing so is a great way to convince people they don't want to be with you, though, if that's what he's after.

    Actually I completely agree with what you had to say, just don't be so angry all the time ;)
    He is young and worries too much and yes his behaviour is not ok but he is doing it with best intentions(yes I know road to hell paved with that yadda yadda)

    I only agree with limed quote insofar as we are only talking about alcohol. There really is no middle ground, in my opinion, between addict and "straightedge" for various other drugs, and even for non-addicts of something like, say, Cocaine or X (or E or whatever those crazy kids are calling it nowadays), I'd still say that any use is bad. Period.

    For alcohol, though, there is a very large middle ground, but that's more or less where it ends (pot too, maybe). There is such a thing as social drinking, but there really isn't any such thing as social snorting, sorry. There's really nothing to debate there, and it isn't retarded to argue the straightedge side when you are talking about anything beyond alcohol or pot.

    In fact, I would even lump cigarettes in with the X, Cocaine, etc. group and not the alcohol/pot group.

    edit: I'm sure VC is talking about alcohol only, but his last couple of sentences sounded too general.
    You're actually comparing cocaine and exstacy in terms of tendency towards physical addiction? Are you high? I have no desire to try either one and even I know better than that. There are some drugs like nicotine, cocaine and crack that a person can become addicted to with relatively little exposure, but not many, and there are some drugs that will cause permanent damage every time you use them, but again they're not in the majority. And it wouldn't matter if they were because he still doesn't get to make that decision for her. People who try to control their significant other's life are pricks unless they're in a consensual full-time dom/sub arrangement.

    ViolentChemistry on
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    DrezDrez Registered User regular
    edited January 2007
    if you're so opposed to having your significant other go for a drink every now and again you're going to have a very difficult time finding a healthy relationship by the time you hit college.

    This is true too, on two counts.

    1) Don't expect this relationship to last much longer. I'm 26 now and I know two people that have married the person they were dating in high-school. Actually, one is married, and one just got engaged - so the jury is still out on whether or not they end up getting married. Every other relationship either fizzled out during the summer after graduation, within the next year, or ended disastrously toward the end of their college careers.

    2) Everyone drinks in college. Unless you actively seek out the prudest prude on the planet, you are simply not going to find anyone that doesn't drink. That isn't to say you should personally feel pressured to drink either. It is possible to find a girl that drinks that doesn't look down on you for being "straightedge" to reuse VC's word.

    OP: I must reiterate that trying to control her has absolutely no positive outcome. It's an entirely selfish action with only negative consequences, regardless of whether or not you think you are acting on her behalf or toward "protecting" her. A few things can happen: she may entirely ignore you and start to disconnect from you emotionally or communicatively, she may become so annoyed that she leaves you, she may stay with you but start to resent you for your controlling attitude, or you may even end up controlling her behavior. That last one is probably the very worst possible consequence, because you'll either be reinforcing an unhealthy, controllable nature.

    Sorry. Your situation sucks, it does. You may even need some form of therapy, honestly, because your personality and philosophy with regard to how other people regard alcohol is not really compatible with reality, particularly the reality you face with college on the horizon.

    Drez on
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    DrezDrez Registered User regular
    edited January 2007
    Drez wrote:
    Librarian wrote:
    Librarian wrote:
    Gee, you won't let her go out and try to control what she does and doesn't do with her own body and yet she's dissatisfied with the relationship? I can't imagine what's wrong with her, you're clearly doing everything right!

    Sheesh, give him a break, if he has a family history of heavy drinkers and alcohol related fuckups I can understand his concern, though of course he worries too much about his girlfriend.
    I have a family history of alcoholism and many of my friends have made fuckups while they were under the influence of alcohol and I had to live with an alcoholic for a full year who is to the point where withdrawals would actually kill her and as such she's drunk her entire life now, she can't quit even if she wanted to, and it hasn't blinded me to reality. Reality is that a family history of alcoholism doesn't make you an alcoholic by default, nor does periodically going out with friends and having a couple drinks. And drugs (including alcohol) don't make people do jack shit, people just use them as an excuse. They're still the one making their decisions, not the drug. There's a thing called moderation that no one seems to have heard of anymore, straightedge vs addict is a retarded and blatantly insulting false-dichotomy.

    Edit: Oh, and most importantly, he doesn't have any right whatsoever to be trying to make his girlfriend's decisions for her. Doing so is a great way to convince people they don't want to be with you, though, if that's what he's after.

    Actually I completely agree with what you had to say, just don't be so angry all the time ;)
    He is young and worries too much and yes his behaviour is not ok but he is doing it with best intentions(yes I know road to hell paved with that yadda yadda)

    I only agree with limed quote insofar as we are only talking about alcohol. There really is no middle ground, in my opinion, between addict and "straightedge" for various other drugs, and even for non-addicts of something like, say, Cocaine or X (or E or whatever those crazy kids are calling it nowadays), I'd still say that any use is bad. Period.

    For alcohol, though, there is a very large middle ground, but that's more or less where it ends (pot too, maybe). There is such a thing as social drinking, but there really isn't any such thing as social snorting, sorry. There's really nothing to debate there, and it isn't retarded to argue the straightedge side when you are talking about anything beyond alcohol or pot.

    In fact, I would even lump cigarettes in with the X, Cocaine, etc. group and not the alcohol/pot group.

    edit: I'm sure VC is talking about alcohol only, but his last couple of sentences sounded too general.
    You're actually comparing cocaine and exstacy in terms of tendency towards physical addiction? Are you high? I have no desire to try either one and even I know better than that. There are some drugs like nicotine, cocaine and crack that a person can become addicted to with relatively little exposure, but not many, and there are some drugs that will cause permanent damage every time you use them, but again they're not in the majority. And it wouldn't matter if they were because he still doesn't get to make that decision for her. People who try to control their significant other's life are pricks unless they're in a consensual full-time dom/sub arrangement.
    I'm not high, no. VC, you really need to come down from your high horse and at least try to converse respectably with other people here. This thread iis a good example. I am aware that expressing this sentiment is technically off topic, but this is Help/Advice and I'm offering you some advice here. You are really coming off as obnoxious now. I'm not the only one pointing this out to you, which you will notice if you read up.

    With regard to the topic at hand: you misread my post. "Straightedge" is not necessarily the opposite of "addict." You can be "straightedge" against Extasy or other non-addictive activities. "E" or "X" or whatever is a potentially dangerous drug, particularly with what is often mixed into it. I know a number of people that use E frequently. I'm not comparing its addictiveness to Cocaine or Nicotine or anything of the like; I am simply stating that there is nothing "retarded" about being straightedge against something like E or X which is potentially dangerous, regardless of how addictive it is.

    Before we launch into a discussion about E, I know the base drug is not necessarily dangerous - can't remember the name right now - but often it's laced with speed or some other shit, and other than trust in the "dealer," and what the pill looks like, there is no real way to tell. At least, that's what my old raver friends have told me, and I'm willing to trust them on this point.

    Ultimately, though, I agree with you. Even if she were snorting Cocaine every morning, he doesn't have any right to forcibly stop her from doing that. He can take external action; dump her, call the cops, call her parents and so forth, but he has no right to forcibly control her actions. Period.

    Drez on
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    SmasherSmasher Starting to get dizzy Registered User regular
    edited January 2007
    Drez wrote:
    2) Everyone drinks in college. Unless you actively seek out the prudest prude on the planet, you are simply not going to find anyone that doesn't drink.

    I agree with the rest of your post, but this part isn't true. While most of my friends and I drink, there are a couple who don't, and I haven't made any effort at all to specifically meet people like that. I've even seen a facebook group or two to that effect, and I imagine if you went looking for it one could find other organizations/groups to that effect around campus. Also, this is at UCSB, which has a rather well-deserved reputation as a party school, so I'd imagine this would be even more true at most other colleges.

    Smasher on
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    Uncle LongUncle Long Registered User regular
    edited January 2007
    It seems to me that the problem is less with alcohol but with what happens when one is under the influence. He isn't completely unjustified in his worry, it does take a fair amount of trust in your significant other. But, it is a matter of trust. You've had a girl cheat on you before and it's hard to trust after that. I've been there before, and I'm sure many around here have been there as well. But, if you try to control a person it fosters a tendency in the manipulated to do things behind your back. You have to trust the person you are with to make the right decisions. If they can't then they aren't right for you and they have some growing up to do.

    I know it's really hard. If you've had just the two girlfriends then break-ups are heart-breaking. You tend to think that you should do everything in your power to keep this ship together. But, no matter how much effort you put into it, relationships without trust are unhealthy and detrimental to your own enjoyment of life.

    In summation, let her do what she wants to do, but go with her. Don't be the sober guy around a bunch of drinkers who sits in the corner and gives her the gloomy fish eye, that'll make her look at the guys she is drinking with a lot more favorably than she looks at you. Go out with the intention of having fun. Be attentive and laugh and enjoy your youth, et cetera.

    Keeping a girlfriend at that age is nerve-wracking. She still wants to explore her options, as much as she may say otherwise. You have to present yourself as the best option; as the one she wants to come home with. If this is natural for you then you are exceedingly lucky and have a great thing going and have nothing to worry about.

    Uncle Long on
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    DrezDrez Registered User regular
    edited January 2007
    Smasher wrote:
    Drez wrote:
    2) Everyone drinks in college. Unless you actively seek out the prudest prude on the planet, you are simply not going to find anyone that doesn't drink.

    I agree with the rest of your post, but this part isn't true. While most of my friends and I drink, there are a couple who don't, and I haven't made any effort at all to specifically meet people like that. I've even seen a facebook group or two to that effect, and I imagine if you went looking for it one could find other organizations/groups to that effect around campus. Also, this is at UCSB, which has a rather well-deserved reputation as a party school, so I'd imagine this would be even more true at most other colleges.

    Almost everyone drinks in college. I meant to write "almost." Even in non-dormed commuter colleges, most people engage in social drinking. I admit I have no statistical evidence. Maybe everyone in New York is a lush, I dunno, but apparently my friends in Florida would have me believe the same thing. The only people I know that entirely avoided alcohol in college were those allergic to it. Like, it would immediately kill them. Just one girl.

    Drez on
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    ViolentChemistryViolentChemistry __BANNED USERS regular
    edited January 2007
    Drez wrote:
    Drez wrote:
    Librarian wrote:
    Librarian wrote:
    Gee, you won't let her go out and try to control what she does and doesn't do with her own body and yet she's dissatisfied with the relationship? I can't imagine what's wrong with her, you're clearly doing everything right!

    Sheesh, give him a break, if he has a family history of heavy drinkers and alcohol related fuckups I can understand his concern, though of course he worries too much about his girlfriend.
    I have a family history of alcoholism and many of my friends have made fuckups while they were under the influence of alcohol and I had to live with an alcoholic for a full year who is to the point where withdrawals would actually kill her and as such she's drunk her entire life now, she can't quit even if she wanted to, and it hasn't blinded me to reality. Reality is that a family history of alcoholism doesn't make you an alcoholic by default, nor does periodically going out with friends and having a couple drinks. And drugs (including alcohol) don't make people do jack shit, people just use them as an excuse. They're still the one making their decisions, not the drug. There's a thing called moderation that no one seems to have heard of anymore, straightedge vs addict is a retarded and blatantly insulting false-dichotomy.

    Edit: Oh, and most importantly, he doesn't have any right whatsoever to be trying to make his girlfriend's decisions for her. Doing so is a great way to convince people they don't want to be with you, though, if that's what he's after.

    Actually I completely agree with what you had to say, just don't be so angry all the time ;)
    He is young and worries too much and yes his behaviour is not ok but he is doing it with best intentions(yes I know road to hell paved with that yadda yadda)

    I only agree with limed quote insofar as we are only talking about alcohol. There really is no middle ground, in my opinion, between addict and "straightedge" for various other drugs, and even for non-addicts of something like, say, Cocaine or X (or E or whatever those crazy kids are calling it nowadays), I'd still say that any use is bad. Period.

    For alcohol, though, there is a very large middle ground, but that's more or less where it ends (pot too, maybe). There is such a thing as social drinking, but there really isn't any such thing as social snorting, sorry. There's really nothing to debate there, and it isn't retarded to argue the straightedge side when you are talking about anything beyond alcohol or pot.

    In fact, I would even lump cigarettes in with the X, Cocaine, etc. group and not the alcohol/pot group.

    edit: I'm sure VC is talking about alcohol only, but his last couple of sentences sounded too general.
    You're actually comparing cocaine and exstacy in terms of tendency towards physical addiction? Are you high? I have no desire to try either one and even I know better than that. There are some drugs like nicotine, cocaine and crack that a person can become addicted to with relatively little exposure, but not many, and there are some drugs that will cause permanent damage every time you use them, but again they're not in the majority. And it wouldn't matter if they were because he still doesn't get to make that decision for her. People who try to control their significant other's life are pricks unless they're in a consensual full-time dom/sub arrangement.
    I'm not high, no. VC, you really need to come down from your high horse and at least try to converse respectably with other people here. This thread iis a good example. I am aware that expressing this sentiment is technically off topic, but this is Help/Advice and I'm offering you some advice here. You are really coming off as obnoxious now. I'm not the only one pointing this out to you, which you will notice if you read up.

    With regard to the topic at hand: you misread my post. "Straightedge" is not necessarily the opposite of "addict." You can be "straightedge" against Extasy or other non-addictive activities. "E" or "X" or whatever is a potentially dangerous drug, particularly with what is often mixed into it. I know a number of people that use E frequently. I'm not comparing its addictiveness to Cocaine or Nicotine or anything of the like; I am simply stating that there is nothing "retarded" about being straightedge against something like E or X which is potentially dangerous, regardless of how addictive it is.

    Before we launch into a discussion about E, I know the base drug is not necessarily dangerous - can't remember the name right now - but often it's laced with speed or some other shit, and other than trust in the "dealer," and what the pill looks like, there is no real way to tell. At least, that's what my old raver friends have told me, and I'm willing to trust them on this point.

    Ultimately, though, I agree with you. Even if she were snorting Cocaine every morning, he doesn't have any right to forcibly stop her from doing that. He can take external action; dump her, call the cops, call her parents and so forth, but he has no right to forcibly control her actions. Period.
    So I'm a prick because you like to read things into my posts that aren't there? Sorry, that's not terribly convincing, nor is it in a PM. I'm not saying there's something wrong with not doing drugs. I never have said that and I never will. Shit, there are tonnes of drugs I'm not willing to ever do. You're the one who asserted there's no such thing as moderation in regards to the use of cocaine and E. At least, that's what you said the first time, if you meant something else, perhaps you should have said that instead and I wouldn't have yelled at you for saying something ridiculous. Of course, when you said it you were reading shit into my post that wasn't there, again, so perhaps you thought there was some sort of reason to even bring it up in the first place, as it sure as fuck wasn't relevant to the topic.

    ViolentChemistry on
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    cajgarbcajgarb Registered User regular
    edited January 2007
    wow, i didn't intend to start a flame war. thanks to everyone who gave clear, logical responses and didn't flame me. i know thats the best way to go about it now, to go with her when she is out partying.

    however a few things i feel ought to be mentioned. my friends that want to drink with her all happen to have either overt or hidden nerd crushes on her, and of the seven or so of them maybe half of them make no effort to hide it. as they've been my only friends for awhile, i feel particularly betrayed when they do this. i have stood up and told them its not ok, and so has she, but anyway, i guess adding alcohol to the mix makes me worry how far they will take it.

    also, jesus dude i feel like there ought to be a lifetime original film about how controlling and terrible a person i am after some of these posts. i never wanted to be controlling and i've always felt like its her decision to make, but i have also been very torn because in some ways it reminds me alot of other relationships, romantic and otherwise, that went down the same path in regards to alcohol. please understand that i am very torn, i don't know what i ought to believe sometimes. the fact that i am in some way controlling her certainly does nothing to help my self esteem, i feel like a terrible person.

    i know it can't be avoided and it is difficult to trust for a number of reasons, but i guess i know that she's going to party either way, and it is her decision to go, and the most i can do is go there and be a designated driver and make sure my asshole friends don't pull some bullshit.

    cajgarb on
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    DrezDrez Registered User regular
    edited January 2007
    Drez wrote:
    Drez wrote:
    Librarian wrote:
    Librarian wrote:
    Gee, you won't let her go out and try to control what she does and doesn't do with her own body and yet she's dissatisfied with the relationship? I can't imagine what's wrong with her, you're clearly doing everything right!

    Sheesh, give him a break, if he has a family history of heavy drinkers and alcohol related fuckups I can understand his concern, though of course he worries too much about his girlfriend.
    I have a family history of alcoholism and many of my friends have made fuckups while they were under the influence of alcohol and I had to live with an alcoholic for a full year who is to the point where withdrawals would actually kill her and as such she's drunk her entire life now, she can't quit even if she wanted to, and it hasn't blinded me to reality. Reality is that a family history of alcoholism doesn't make you an alcoholic by default, nor does periodically going out with friends and having a couple drinks. And drugs (including alcohol) don't make people do jack shit, people just use them as an excuse. They're still the one making their decisions, not the drug. There's a thing called moderation that no one seems to have heard of anymore, straightedge vs addict is a retarded and blatantly insulting false-dichotomy.

    Edit: Oh, and most importantly, he doesn't have any right whatsoever to be trying to make his girlfriend's decisions for her. Doing so is a great way to convince people they don't want to be with you, though, if that's what he's after.

    Actually I completely agree with what you had to say, just don't be so angry all the time ;)
    He is young and worries too much and yes his behaviour is not ok but he is doing it with best intentions(yes I know road to hell paved with that yadda yadda)

    I only agree with limed quote insofar as we are only talking about alcohol. There really is no middle ground, in my opinion, between addict and "straightedge" for various other drugs, and even for non-addicts of something like, say, Cocaine or X (or E or whatever those crazy kids are calling it nowadays), I'd still say that any use is bad. Period.

    For alcohol, though, there is a very large middle ground, but that's more or less where it ends (pot too, maybe). There is such a thing as social drinking, but there really isn't any such thing as social snorting, sorry. There's really nothing to debate there, and it isn't retarded to argue the straightedge side when you are talking about anything beyond alcohol or pot.

    In fact, I would even lump cigarettes in with the X, Cocaine, etc. group and not the alcohol/pot group.

    edit: I'm sure VC is talking about alcohol only, but his last couple of sentences sounded too general.
    You're actually comparing cocaine and exstacy in terms of tendency towards physical addiction? Are you high? I have no desire to try either one and even I know better than that. There are some drugs like nicotine, cocaine and crack that a person can become addicted to with relatively little exposure, but not many, and there are some drugs that will cause permanent damage every time you use them, but again they're not in the majority. And it wouldn't matter if they were because he still doesn't get to make that decision for her. People who try to control their significant other's life are pricks unless they're in a consensual full-time dom/sub arrangement.
    I'm not high, no. VC, you really need to come down from your high horse and at least try to converse respectably with other people here. This thread iis a good example. I am aware that expressing this sentiment is technically off topic, but this is Help/Advice and I'm offering you some advice here. You are really coming off as obnoxious now. I'm not the only one pointing this out to you, which you will notice if you read up.

    With regard to the topic at hand: you misread my post. "Straightedge" is not necessarily the opposite of "addict." You can be "straightedge" against Extasy or other non-addictive activities. "E" or "X" or whatever is a potentially dangerous drug, particularly with what is often mixed into it. I know a number of people that use E frequently. I'm not comparing its addictiveness to Cocaine or Nicotine or anything of the like; I am simply stating that there is nothing "retarded" about being straightedge against something like E or X which is potentially dangerous, regardless of how addictive it is.

    Before we launch into a discussion about E, I know the base drug is not necessarily dangerous - can't remember the name right now - but often it's laced with speed or some other shit, and other than trust in the "dealer," and what the pill looks like, there is no real way to tell. At least, that's what my old raver friends have told me, and I'm willing to trust them on this point.

    Ultimately, though, I agree with you. Even if she were snorting Cocaine every morning, he doesn't have any right to forcibly stop her from doing that. He can take external action; dump her, call the cops, call her parents and so forth, but he has no right to forcibly control her actions. Period.
    So I'm a prick because you like to read things into my posts that aren't there? Sorry, that's not terribly convincing, nor is it in a PM. I'm not saying there's something wrong with not doing drugs. I never have said that and I never will. Shit, there are tonnes of drugs I'm not willing to ever do. You're the one who asserted there's no such thing as moderation in regards to the use of cocaine and E. At least, that's what you said the first time, if you meant something else, perhaps you should have said that instead and I wouldn't have yelled at you for saying something ridiculous. Of course, when you said it you were reading shit into my post that wasn't there, again, so perhaps you thought there was some sort of reason to even bring it up in the first place, as it sure as fuck wasn't relevant to the topic.
    You're a prick for using the phrase "are you high?" and your general tone here, as evidenced in other posts both in this thread and others on this subforum. And, as I explicitly stated in my post, I probably was reading more into your post than what was there, which makes your comments after that even more prickish. Since my points were all entirely correct and related to the discussion about addiction and drug/alcohol use, and I disclaimed that my posts might not have related to what you were saying but that they are relevant regardless, the only irrelevant post here was your response to me.

    Anyway, this is getting widely off-topic.

    Drez on
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    ViolentChemistryViolentChemistry __BANNED USERS regular
    edited January 2007
    cajgarb wrote:
    however a few things i feel ought to be mentioned. my friends that want to drink with her all happen to have either overt or hidden nerd crushes on her, and of the seven or so of them maybe half of them make no effort to hide it. as they've been my only friends for awhile, i feel particularly betrayed when they do this. i have stood up and told them its not ok, and so has she, but anyway, i guess adding alcohol to the mix makes me worry how far they will take it.
    Those don't sound like friends, dude. If they're actively trying to get your girlfriend drunk so they can fool around with her, I don't get why you'd consider them your friends.

    ViolentChemistry on
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    DrezDrez Registered User regular
    edited January 2007
    cajgarb wrote:
    wow, i didn't intend to start a flame war. thanks to everyone who gave clear, logical responses and didn't flame me. i know thats the best way to go about it now, to go with her when she is out partying.

    however a few things i feel ought to be mentioned. my friends that want to drink with her all happen to have either overt or hidden nerd crushes on her, and of the seven or so of them maybe half of them make no effort to hide it. as they've been my only friends for awhile, i feel particularly betrayed when they do this. i have stood up and told them its not ok, and so has she, but anyway, i guess adding alcohol to the mix makes me worry how far they will take it.

    also, jesus dude i feel like there ought to be a lifetime original film about how controlling and terrible a person i am after some of these posts. i never wanted to be controlling and i've always felt like its her decision to make, but i have also been very torn because in some ways it reminds me alot of other relationships, romantic and otherwise, that went down the same path in regards to alcohol. please understand that i am very torn, i don't know what i ought to believe sometimes. the fact that i am in some way controlling her certainly does nothing to help my self esteem, i feel like a terrible person.

    i know it can't be avoided and it is difficult to trust for a number of reasons, but i guess i know that she's going to party either way, and it is her decision to go, and the most i can do is go there and be a designated driver and make sure my asshole friends don't pull some bullshit.

    As long as you can personally recognize that your beliefs may not be particularly...uh...good/beneficial, I think it's safe to say that you aren't a terrible person or an all-out control freak. I wasn't trying to say that you were. But you should really try to wash any controlling elements or tendencies out of your personality as soon as possibly, regardless of your past situation and current philosophy on alcohol consumption and socializing with alcohol, because even tendancy toward control, even for a good reason, is bad. I never really liked this phrase, but I think it is most appropriate in this exact situation, when people try to control others "for their own good": "The road to Hell is paved with good intentions."

    Also, "you can lead a horse to water, but you can't make him drink it." Now, technically, in this case you are trying to get the horse not to drink the "water," but it's still applicable.

    Drez on
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    Uncle LongUncle Long Registered User regular
    edited January 2007
    I know what you mean. It's hard. Hell, there's a girl I fooled around with the other night who I've been trying to get with for the last three years. She wants it casual and so do I, but there's still the part of me that checks her away message or sends her the occasional thought. If I were her, that alone would annoy me, I know this, I've been in her shoes. It doesn't change the fact that I do it, I want to know that she wants me, and I want to talk to her and all of that. Feelings, however related to love or pure sex will mess with you no matter what, and it's really hard not to try and force things to be how you want them to be. I never feel that I am doing something silly when calling her, but when we hang up after a shitty conversation I just know that I won't be seeing her for a few more days, because I am resembling the party in the pure sex relationship who thinks there is more. Whether I do or not.

    This is anecdotal. I just wanted to point out that emotion is not always compatible with logical habits. But, sometimes, the emotion needs to be set aside when deciding how to handle a situation.

    Your friends are not being friendly, but this, I am fairly sure, will be a situation which you leave behind when you leave for college. Your girlfriend, if she has told them that their overtures are not OK, sounds pretty level-headed and mature to me. Just be sure to go out with her and have a good time. If you go out and start defending her from any guy that tries to talk to her she will resent you for it, there's no getting around it. If one is getting a bit chummy and she's too drunk to realize it, squeeze her hand and tell her you love her, if you do, or kiss her, or whatever works to express your intimacy.

    Never tell her that you two should leave. Never tell her that she is drunk. Just trust me on these two. Let her suggest leaving.


    Never tell her she is drunk.

    Uncle Long on
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    DrezDrez Registered User regular
    edited January 2007
    cajgarb wrote:
    however a few things i feel ought to be mentioned. my friends that want to drink with her all happen to have either overt or hidden nerd crushes on her, and of the seven or so of them maybe half of them make no effort to hide it. as they've been my only friends for awhile, i feel particularly betrayed when they do this. i have stood up and told them its not ok, and so has she, but anyway, i guess adding alcohol to the mix makes me worry how far they will take it.
    Those don't sound like friends, dude. If they're actively trying to get your girlfriend drunk so they can fool around with her, I don't get why you'd consider them your friends.
    I agree. I've had guy "friends" like that and they are total dicks that I stopped talking to. Not all guys are like that.

    Drez on
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    cajgarbcajgarb Registered User regular
    edited January 2007
    well as of last night, their latest partying/begging my girlfriend to hang out with them episode, i don't consider them my friends so much anymore. but they're not actively trying to get her drunk for the purpose of fooling around with, no. they just want to have fun and they happen to be good friends with myself and her, but they know i don't drink and i guess they don't want to offend me or whatever so they don't invite me. and no, i haven't been a dick to my friends about drinking or whatever. i really don't think any less of anyone for drinking, and they know it.

    the thing about some of their crushes is, they're nerd crushes. they haven't had many relationships so they have a thing or two to learn about the subtle nuances of how to treat your close friend's girlfriend.

    cajgarb on
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    AximAxim Registered User regular
    edited January 2007
    i dunno i find alot of computer dudes i know (including myself) at one point have this aversion to alcohol maybe because its more associated with the popular/party crowd but my family has a huge history of alcoholism but i know myself well enough i've never really been prone to addiction as far as smoking drugs or anything goes. and i will say you've got to expect people at this age to want to go out and party once in a while it's pretty normal and really so long as you're not friends with super religious people this is going to be an issue into the twenties as most people go out socially and drink / party.

    i didn't drink until i was 19 and even then it's not a regular thing by any means but if a bunch of friends are going out to the bar or having a house party its fun to have some drinks hang out with friends and just let loose once in a while. its been said here before but everyone has their own pace i guess for these things but if you know yourself you shouldn't have a problem drinking on occasion. on the other hand if you are really serious about this no drink policy than finding girls that are more conservative is going to have to be your compromise i'm afraid..

    Axim on
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    ZonkytonkmanZonkytonkman Registered User regular
    edited January 2007
    if you are both under the age of oh say... 30? hell 40, then this is normal. Let her have her fun.

    One of my closest firiends is one of the heaviest drinkers I know, our group consists of people that hang on the weekends and go to bars and stuf, and yet his GF is a complete tea-totaler. They've been together for maybe 7 years. She comes along with him, she has a great time, and she isn't a bitch about it. Which you kind of are being.

    edit: after reading the entire thread, i feel that calling you a bitch was a little harsh. I'm going to downgrade my comment to "homp" with the addition of "recovering"

    Zonkytonkman on
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    cajgarbcajgarb Registered User regular
    edited January 2007
    i think I've kind of misrepresented myself here. i don't think of myself as being better than anyone for not drinking or anything like that. being the only person i know who doesn't drink, its easy to feel alienated. i knew i would come off as a bitch and a homp for even posting this, so I'll call this issue solved. thanks to everyone, in particular drez and librarian.

    cajgarb on
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    EggyToastEggyToast Jersey CityRegistered User regular
    edited January 2007
    Hey, I don't see anything wrong with being up front with her and saying that you've seen your family and past relationships ruined thanks to alcohol abuse. You can tell her that you know she doesn't abuse it, but explain to her why it makes you nervous and uneasy. Ask her if she's out at a party and someone presents YOU with alcohol, what she would do if you had to always refuse?

    EggyToast on
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    satansfingerssatansfingers Registered User regular
    edited January 2007
    you are still kind of missing the point of going out. don't go out with her so you can keep an eye on her, go out because you want to enjoy the company of those around you. you're not sounding much less controlling when you say that you'd only be going as a driver and to keep your 'friends' in check.

    satansfingers on
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    cajgarbcajgarb Registered User regular
    edited January 2007
    i can't change the fact that that is not how i have fun

    cajgarb on
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    GrimmyTOAGrimmyTOA Registered User regular
    edited January 2007
    you are still kind of missing the point of going out. don't go out with her so you can keep an eye on her, go out because you want to enjoy the company of those around you. you're not sounding much less controlling when you say that you'd only be going as a driver and to keep your 'friends' in check.

    Some people, it must be said, have trouble hanging out with drunk people when they aren't drunk themselves. I know that it's not my favourite activity. Drunk people (and I'm saying this without prejudice -- I drink) can be very annoying to sober people -- particularly sober people who have issues with alcohol.

    In this case, as hard as it may seem, you may want to simply say goodbye to your current girlfriend. You shouldn't be trying to control her drinking, but if it makes you this unhappy...

    There are lots of women out there who don't drink -- and who will be only too happy to find a guy who doesn't.

    It all depends on how important this issue is to you.

    GrimmyTOA on
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    EggyToastEggyToast Jersey CityRegistered User regular
    edited January 2007
    GrimmyTOA wrote:
    It all depends on how important this issue is to you.

    And, key point here, this is what you should be telling HER.

    If she doesn't view such a crucial aspect of your life as important, then what's the deal? I mean, it's one thing if you two have different interests but you simply go off and do other things when each of you partakes in that activity. But I view this as having little difference to someone who likes going to casinos dating someone who comes from a family of gambling addictions, and tries very hard to put all aspects of gambling out of their lives.

    I mean, if I had arachnophobia, really bad, and I dated a girl who wanted to get a pet spider... Well, it would pretty much not work. Either, to her, the thing she wanted (a spider) is more important than the relationship, or the relationship is more important than the thing that she wants. It's crappy to put it in terms of an ultimatum, but when it comes to really strong, possibly irrational emotions and feelings, there's rarely shades of gray involved.

    This is true for fear of flying, very strong aversion to pets, and more. These feelings and fears can be tied to something based on logic, such as the OP's situation where his family is full of alcoholics, and he sees firsthand the troubles that alcohol can lead to. Coupled with that, he had a past relationship where the girl wanted to drink more and it led to worse activities and what sounds like a pretty nasty breakup.

    He understands that having a drink at a party isn't the same as being an alcoholic. He knows that, logically. But that doesn't mean he won't get the same feeling in his stomach each time he sees her take a drink, or goes out to drink. Does he want to live with that? And, perhaps even more important, does she want to put him through that?

    Seriously OP, you need to talk with her about this and explain how you're not accusing her of anything, but rather how strongly these feelings are for you. That they're not entirely rational but it's like a fear of spiders or snakes -- you KNOW that, in your brain, there shouldn't be anything to be afraid of. But that doesn't change that gut reaction, that initial scare.

    I personally enjoy a glass of wine quite frequently -- a glass or two, usually once a week. But I've also lived and dealt with people who have serious emotional problems, and you need to approach this not as a "drinking is bad" element, which it seems like you know. Rather, you need to tell her your background and, if you already have, you need to say that if she absolutely needs to go out and party with people that involve alcohol, that in your current emotional state you simply can't do it -- that it makes you an emotional wreck.

    Depending on how you feel, offer to see if you can help yourself. Ask that she has a glass of alcohol with dinner, for instance, so you can see for yourself that she doesn't go crazy. See if you can warm up to the situation of her having a drink in a comfortable surrounding.

    Granted, if you're in the US and it's illegal for her to drink, you've got a different bag of worms.

    EggyToast on
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    cajgarbcajgarb Registered User regular
    edited January 2007
    eggy, you've really nailed the way i feel about it right there. i have told her all of these things, and she tells me that regardless of this, she feels torn. the ultimatum has seemed to me in the past like the only way to deal with it. i don't and can't understand why drinking and partying is more important to her than our relationship, but hell, we're high schoolers so I'm taking this a bit too seriously anyway.

    also, we do happen to live in the united states so the whole rebellious-teenager-breaking-the-law thing compounds and complicates things for me.

    incidentally, i do worry that since her parents tend to over react, if i, the designated driver, take her home drunk, they will see me as the source of the drinking, like i influenced her to drink. but i suppose that strays a little from the topic at hand.

    cajgarb on
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    ViolentChemistryViolentChemistry __BANNED USERS regular
    edited January 2007
    cajgarb wrote:
    i don't and can't understand why drinking and partying is more important to her than our relationship, but hell, we're high schoolers so I'm taking this a bit too seriously anyway.
    If a girl gave me a choice between continuing to date her but never playing videogames again, or being allowed to play videogames but having to break up with her, it would not be a difficult choice at all. Even if she had some sort of absurd irrational fear of videogames that she couldn't control, it would still be an easy choice. I'm not going to give up harmless hobbies that I enjoy just to please one irrational girl, that would be stupid. Probability + population of Earth = there's a girl out there I like more who doesn't have a problem with my harmless hobbies.

    ViolentChemistry on
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    ZekZek Registered User regular
    edited January 2007
    cajgarb, it sounds to me like the fact of the matter is that you and your girlfriend just aren't very compatible. Your position on alcohol is very understandable given the cirumstances, but it means that a relationship with someone who enjoys going drinking regularly with her friends just isn't likely to work very well. If a major part of her life is something that bothers you this much then I think it goes without saying that you should look elsewhere.

    Zek on
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