I don't think it's coincidence that the best Superman tale (All-Star Superman) is about him fucking dying.
I mean, that's what the series is about. Superman thinks he's dying and does stuff. It's completely out of continuity and it's not set in the modern world.
That takes care of so many of the reasons why writing Superman is hard and why people might not like the character.
And the best Superman story is Birthright, Flash Fact. And Secret Identity was all about life!
It's also not a coincidence that 2 of your 3 "Best Superman Stories" are out of continuity where the writers were allowed to do pretty much what they want with the character.
TexiKenDammit!That fish really got me!Registered Userregular
edited September 2010
There was 6 years of really good/great Superman stories before Infinite Crisis, and even after that most of Busiek's stories were good (even most of the fill-ins he did for Action Comics). It's only recently DC pile-drived their best character into the ground and made him lick dried kryptonite poop.
And the best Superman story is Birthright, Flash Fact. And Secret Identity was all about life!
It's also not a coincidence that 2 of your 3 "Best Superman Stories" are out of continuity where the writers were allowed to do pretty much what they want with the character.
I don't know anything about Flash Fact though.
Emperor Joker. Condition Critical. Camelot Falls. Our Worlds at War (just the Superman issues, not the ridiculous tie-ins). The Coming of Atlas. Ending Battle.
And all the issues that weren't story arcs, like form the 2k era I scanned a bunch from in the Awesome Moments thread such as Action Comics #775 or 800, or like Simone and Byrne's Action Comics run, or the post-COIE Superman stories (barring the Barda porn issue).
There are good Superman stories, they just aren't as collected into arcs and trades because DC trade department are stupid, 75% of the stories in The Greatest Superman Stories every told are not great stories. There's no reason NOT to keep Rucka and Simone's and Kelly's and Schultz's and Casey's runs out of print, as they would dispell this myth that there are few good Superman stories.
I think All Star is the best really, but there are alot of good Superman stuff, even recently.
On top of what's been mentioned already: Superman for all Seasons, Up, Up and Away, Ending Battle, Infinite City. Even Greg Rucka, who took two years on the title to actually get Superman ended up delivering some really great issues.
I think All Star is the best really, but there are alot of good Superman stuff, even recently.
On top of what's been mentioned already: Superman for all Seasons, Up, Up and Away, Ending Battle, Infinite City. Even Greg Rucka, who took two years on the title to actually get Superman ended up delivering some really great issues.
Once again, all the specific stories you guys are mentioning aren't regular Superman stories.
In order, Origin Story, Depowered Story, I don't know and Alternate Dimension.
Does anyone else see a pattern forming with these "Great" Superman stories?
Just to remind everyone, I also really like most of these stories and I do really like Superman.
Emperor Joker. Condition Critical. Camelot Falls. Our Worlds at War (just the Superman issues, not the ridiculous tie-ins). The Coming of Atlas. Ending Battle.
Ok, you got me here, because I haven't read any of these.
I don't think it's coincidence that the best Superman tale (All-Star Superman) is about him fucking dying.
I mean, that's what the series is about. Superman thinks he's dying and does stuff. It's completely out of continuity and it's not set in the modern world.
That takes care of so many of the reasons why writing Superman is hard and why people might not like the character.
TexiKenDammit!That fish really got me!Registered Userregular
edited September 2010
Well Superman for All Seasons, despite being a year one type story, is still a good Superman story. And because DC are so stupid with Superman's history and always rebooting it, that would mean despite Man of Steel, for all seasons, and Birthright being great stories, they don't count because we have the "new" origin story Johns wrote (which wasn't that good). They should still count as good in continuity Superman stories, it's not Waid's fault DC rebooted Clark literally right after Birthright #12 ended.
But can you really count a retold/retooled origin story as a Good Story? It's just tweaking the classic tale that's been told a thousand times before.
But you do have a point. Superman for All Seasons is such a great story because Superman is not infallible. He has issues. He's insecure. He's still learning. He's not quite Superman yet.
AntimatterDevo Was RightGates of SteelRegistered Userregular
edited September 2010
Emperor Joker is a great Superman story, because it shows his strength, his willpower in a scenario where he isn't the greatest being around. and, it's funny in parts, to boot.
I meant because it's pretty much a sequel/continuation of All Star Superman and that spoiler of yours is dealt with in Morrison's other work, DC One Million. The whole Superman 2 door is most likely Superman Secondus, the first member of the Superman Dynasty from DCOM. All Star Superman makes a whole mess of references to DC One Million as well. Stuff like the Unknown Superman and Kal Kent and Solaris, among many other references and cameos.
So many people get Superman completely wrong in terms of how he works as a character.
Superman stories aren't like normal superhero stories. Your average superhero story is part of the western tradition of an outmatched hero who rises to the challange through bravery/cunning/secret weapon/etc and thus defeats the villain.
Superman has no trouble defeating the villain, but what is important in this story is the effect on Superman's world, how does he balance his superhero life with being Clark Kent? How does being Superman affect his relationship with Lois Lane? Superman is about heroism and justice and righteousness, not about struggle in a normal physical sense, but in the struggle he has to make the right choices based on a world which is not always black and white. The story where Lois and Clark's neighbour is being abused is a great example of this, his power means nothing because he cannot force the woman to accept her situation.
Not to return to a character I always harp on about, but this is in some ways how I saw the Sentry in an ideal ongoing, It's not about the Sentry beaating up bad guys, because against most enemies (though not all) he's going to not really have any problem. It's about him getting to the actual fight in the first place, overcoming his own flaws and insecurities to actually live his life, walking the path between heroism and insanity. Robert has to build relationships with others while his own mind struggles against him, and that could be a great backdrop to clashes between superheroes.
I'm tired of people complaining that their superhero stories aren't so heavy on the action, and have more talking. Sure action is great and never unwanted, one of my favourite comic series ever is a massive war, but I didn't read Ultimate Spider-Man or Invincible for the fights, I read it because it was about a guy gaining superpowers and exploring the effect that has on his life and the lives of his friends and family. In the same way Immortal Iron Fist was great because it turned Danny Rand from a random Kung-Fu dude to an inheritor of an ancient tradition of protection and sacrifice, and explored what that does to someone and the lives of those before him. Superhero comics are perhaps the only mainstream genre which actually explores the idea of being a superhuman surrounded by normal people, and how that would actually change a person, and any comic which does this over endless battles is going the right way in my book.
/rant
Solar on
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TexiKenDammit!That fish really got me!Registered Userregular
edited September 2010
Did you have a bad day TLB? Are you angry about something?
And on the Vampirella subject, they have on their main page a full side and top ads for Vampirella, and there's an ass shot right in your line of vision when trying to look at the articles for the day. Stay classy.
Well hey, I know the "Superman sucks" argument constantly comes up, but let me try to get something useful (for me) out of it anyway. One of my co-workers, every time the subject comes up, never fails to insert a "Superman sucks" into the conversation. Being mostly-invincible, according to him, makes for a boring character.
So how do I convince him? He's not going to read a Superman story. I can't just press All-Star into his hands and be like "take two and call me in the morning". What's a succinct, pro-Supes argument?
Actually, every time I've seen the argument busted out here on GV, it usually goes like this:
- "Superman sux"
- "No way authors don't know how to write him here are some awesome Superman stories you should read"
FIN
I haven't seen anyone explain either of the following:
WHY does Superman suck?
WHY does Superman not suck?
What makes it so difficult for authors to write him well? Why do people keep assuming that physical invincibility = flat character? Would more people find Superman palatable if he swore? Or committed mail fraud? People tend to dislike characters without flaws; does Big Blue have flaws? If so many authors have problems writing him well, is it safe to say that maybe there's a problem with the character?
Superman's biggest flaw is he cares too much and truly feels he has to save everyone and that is impossible and very easy to manipulate
What you should do is trick him into reading Hitman and sneak the Superman issue in there
The Lovely Bastard on
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TexiKenDammit!That fish really got me!Registered Userregular
edited September 2010
If you want, I posted some Superman scenes in the Awesome Moments thread a few weeks back, you could look for Action Comics #775 or #800 in particular.
Superman does not suck because he is a good person adhering to the set of morals instilled in him by his parents. Despite what people say in comparing him to Batman, Clark is human, that's a key aspect of the character. It's not so much an alien living among us and looking over us, but a man realizing he was born with amazing powers and using them to make the world a better place.
I would recommend Action Comics #775 as the easiest way to shut up people about how Superman's the suxorz. It contrasts Superman against hip edgy ironically cool killers, and why sticking to the principles of Truth, Justice, and the American Way is not something to snicker at.
Superman doesn't need to kill, he doesn't have to, because he's Superman. This is why you don't see killers filling Metropolis like Gotham, because he will always be there to stop a breakout (and he could probably fix Gotham too but Batman's always abloo abloo about it).
When written badly the story simple devolves into moralising, like JMS' work, or into Superman just pasting the crap out of enemies with little plot or suspense to keep you interested. If the writer relies on threat to Supes then he will usually fail to grab attention because there is no credible threat to Supes most of the time, that's the point.
A good Superman story will make you interested in Superman as a character and what his personal chocies are and how his relationships develop. He is great because he is such a true hero, and when he wins and comes out on top then a good writer makes that a great moment. This is especially true in recent years where there has been a movement towards grimmer heroes, and amongst all that grey Superman stands out as the true good guy. As someone who is not particularly big or tough, and who was never a cool kid at school, Superman appeal to me because he values being a nice guy and what kind of a person you are, not how you look, or how strong you are, or the class of your clothes, or whether you play rpgs or whatever.
Anyway, I'm sure that many people like him for different reasons. JMS certainly doesn't seem to see him like Texiken does for example.
Superman's biggest flaw is he cares too much and truly feels he has to save everyone and that is impossible and very easy to manipulate
What you should do is trick him into reading Hitman and sneak the Superman issue in there
I was thinking about bringing that issue up in my wall-of-questions post. It was one of the best Superman issues ever (in what is one of the best comics ever).
So, really, is his flaw kinda similar to Batman's flaw? I guess Batman wants to prevent harm from coming to anyone, which is not the same as wanting to save everyone.
How many stories can you write about Superman not getting to a dude in time to save him, or about Superman having a crisis of faith since he can't save everyone, or about Luthor accusing Superman of stymieing human progress by preventing humanity from dealing with problems by themselves?
I guess, as many as you can write about Wolverine being the best at what he does, U.S. Agent punching a dude, or Aaron Stack being full of very useful devices.
Delduwath on
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TexiKenDammit!That fish really got me!Registered Userregular
How many stories can you write about Superman not getting to a dude in time to save him, or about Superman having a crisis of faith since he can't save everyone, or about Luthor accusing Superman of stymieing human progress by preventing humanity from dealing with problems by themselves?
I guess, as many as you can write about Wolverine being the best at what he does, U.S. Agent punching a dude, or Aaron Stack being full of very useful devices.
USAgent can never not punch enough dudes. Especially now that he's a paraplegic ass kicker.
With Superman, the good stories are the ones that have Superman doing things equivalent to his abilities. On the way to stopping a carnivorous planet from eating the sun, Superman can stop a car from running into a pedestrian. That is what he's capable of. The story Camelot Falls answers the question about Superman stopping humanity (short answer: it's like being able to save someone from falling off a porch but not saving them, good people just don't let it happen).
And this is why JMS' catalyst for his Grounded story is so flawed, because no one anywhere ever could fix a brain tumor but Superman.
It made me remember how much fun I had reading comics back then. When things like Crisis and Continuity didn't matter to me. Anyway, long story short, I thought Exile was an example of a Superman story done right.
It made me remember how much fun I had reading comics back then. When things like Crisis and Continuity didn't matter to me. Anyway, long story short, I thought Exile was an example of a Superman story done right.
Isn't that the story where Superman willingly kills? I remember hearing a lot about that and it causing much controversy.
wirehead26 on
I'M NOT FINISHED WITH YOU!!!
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TexiKenDammit!That fish really got me!Registered Userregular
edited September 2010
It's the aftermath of him killing Zod.
The underlying theme of Byrne's Superman run, that I only really got rereading it, was that when he veered too much to the Kryptonian aspect of his heritage (killing Zod was in accordance to Kryptonian laws), Clark becomes much less the Superman we know and love, that you can't have Superman without the humanity of being a person. Kind of planetary peer pressure.
Yeah...this is probably why I have such a hard time reading Supes nowadays. When I'm told that the stuff I grew up with doesn't have any impact on who Superman is today. Wish I still didn't care for continuity.
Nevertheless, I found Geoff Johns Superman & the LSH a good read. I wish the Superman team took the Grant Morrison Batman approach. Everything happened one way or another. Okay maybe not Superman Red & Blue. Either one.
Yeah...this is probably why I have such a hard time reading Supes nowadays. When I'm told that the stuff I grew up with doesn't have any impact on who Superman is today. Wish I still didn't care for continuity.
Nevertheless, I found Geoff Johns Superman & the LSH a good read. I wish the Superman team took the Grant Morrison Batman approach. Everything happened one way or another. Okay maybe not Superman Red & Blue. Either one.
Honestly, I can't really stand that approach, because he's trying to cram in all sorts of ridiculous shit on a character that basically doesn't work like that at all. But then, I'm the only person in the world who apparently doesn't really care for Morrison's Batman all that much. Of course, from what I've read of Batman comics over the past decade or so, the best Batman is still BTAS Batman, hands down. Maybe I'm just a Negative Nellie with bad opinions, though. I expect the previous sentence to be bolded in some way, shape, or form.
It's pretty much what lionheart describes, a Superman story that attempts to reconcile the modern interpretation of the character with the more bizarre themes and motifs which characterized his earlier incarnations.
When done right, it doesn't feel excessive so much as rich.
Posts
I mean, that's what the series is about. Superman thinks he's dying and does stuff. It's completely out of continuity and it's not set in the modern world.
That takes care of so many of the reasons why writing Superman is hard and why people might not like the character.
-edit-
I guess this needs to be linked too: Why Superman Will Always Suck by Anthony Burch.
Note: I like Superman, but good Superman comics are pretty rare.
And the best Superman story is Birthright, Flash Fact. And Secret Identity was all about life!
2.
It's also not a coincidence that 2 of your 3 "Best Superman Stories" are out of continuity where the writers were allowed to do pretty much what they want with the character.
I don't know anything about Flash Fact though.
Superman thinks he's dying. This may or may not be true.
I mean, you find this out in the first issue or whatever. It's hardly a spoiler.
edit:
Emperor Joker. Condition Critical. Camelot Falls. Our Worlds at War (just the Superman issues, not the ridiculous tie-ins). The Coming of Atlas. Ending Battle.
And all the issues that weren't story arcs, like form the 2k era I scanned a bunch from in the Awesome Moments thread such as Action Comics #775 or 800, or like Simone and Byrne's Action Comics run, or the post-COIE Superman stories (barring the Barda porn issue).
There are good Superman stories, they just aren't as collected into arcs and trades because DC trade department are stupid, 75% of the stories in The Greatest Superman Stories every told are not great stories. There's no reason NOT to keep Rucka and Simone's and Kelly's and Schultz's and Casey's runs out of print, as they would dispell this myth that there are few good Superman stories.
On top of what's been mentioned already: Superman for all Seasons, Up, Up and Away, Ending Battle, Infinite City. Even Greg Rucka, who took two years on the title to actually get Superman ended up delivering some really great issues.
Once again, all the specific stories you guys are mentioning aren't regular Superman stories.
In order, Origin Story, Depowered Story, I don't know and Alternate Dimension.
Does anyone else see a pattern forming with these "Great" Superman stories?
Just to remind everyone, I also really like most of these stories and I do really like Superman.
DC's Trade Department prefers to collect limited series?
Ok, you got me here, because I haven't read any of these.
Or these great stories fundamentally change the character or his surroundings to make him more interesting?
I can't comment on those stories I haven't read, but I'm sure there is some of this in most of them as well.
That article did not need to be linked
But you do have a point. Superman for All Seasons is such a great story because Superman is not infallible. He has issues. He's insecure. He's still learning. He's not quite Superman yet.
you should read DC One Million...
there are a lot of things I should read
haven't seen one of these in a while
next topic: Batman is a Marvel character trapped in the DC Universe
I meant because it's pretty much a sequel/continuation of All Star Superman and that spoiler of yours is dealt with in Morrison's other work, DC One Million. The whole Superman 2 door is most likely Superman Secondus, the first member of the Superman Dynasty from DCOM. All Star Superman makes a whole mess of references to DC One Million as well. Stuff like the Unknown Superman and Kal Kent and Solaris, among many other references and cameos.
Thank you, KVW, I'll try and look for that.
TLB, yesssss
Superman stories aren't like normal superhero stories. Your average superhero story is part of the western tradition of an outmatched hero who rises to the challange through bravery/cunning/secret weapon/etc and thus defeats the villain.
Superman has no trouble defeating the villain, but what is important in this story is the effect on Superman's world, how does he balance his superhero life with being Clark Kent? How does being Superman affect his relationship with Lois Lane? Superman is about heroism and justice and righteousness, not about struggle in a normal physical sense, but in the struggle he has to make the right choices based on a world which is not always black and white. The story where Lois and Clark's neighbour is being abused is a great example of this, his power means nothing because he cannot force the woman to accept her situation.
Not to return to a character I always harp on about, but this is in some ways how I saw the Sentry in an ideal ongoing, It's not about the Sentry beaating up bad guys, because against most enemies (though not all) he's going to not really have any problem. It's about him getting to the actual fight in the first place, overcoming his own flaws and insecurities to actually live his life, walking the path between heroism and insanity. Robert has to build relationships with others while his own mind struggles against him, and that could be a great backdrop to clashes between superheroes.
I'm tired of people complaining that their superhero stories aren't so heavy on the action, and have more talking. Sure action is great and never unwanted, one of my favourite comic series ever is a massive war, but I didn't read Ultimate Spider-Man or Invincible for the fights, I read it because it was about a guy gaining superpowers and exploring the effect that has on his life and the lives of his friends and family. In the same way Immortal Iron Fist was great because it turned Danny Rand from a random Kung-Fu dude to an inheritor of an ancient tradition of protection and sacrifice, and explored what that does to someone and the lives of those before him. Superhero comics are perhaps the only mainstream genre which actually explores the idea of being a superhuman surrounded by normal people, and how that would actually change a person, and any comic which does this over endless battles is going the right way in my book.
/rant
Here's something to rally the troops around, Joe Mad drew a Vampirella cover, with tentacles.
And on the Vampirella subject, they have on their main page a full side and top ads for Vampirella, and there's an ass shot right in your line of vision when trying to look at the articles for the day. Stay classy.
What would Batman do during The Civil War?
What would wacky Earth 2 Sentry look like during Crisis on Infinite Earth?
What crazy costume would Batman take back during Secret Wars?
How could Sentry face BLACK LANTERN WATCHDOG?
etc.
So how do I convince him? He's not going to read a Superman story. I can't just press All-Star into his hands and be like "take two and call me in the morning". What's a succinct, pro-Supes argument?
Actually, every time I've seen the argument busted out here on GV, it usually goes like this:
- "Superman sux"
- "No way authors don't know how to write him here are some awesome Superman stories you should read"
FIN
I haven't seen anyone explain either of the following:
WHY does Superman suck?
WHY does Superman not suck?
What makes it so difficult for authors to write him well? Why do people keep assuming that physical invincibility = flat character? Would more people find Superman palatable if he swore? Or committed mail fraud? People tend to dislike characters without flaws; does Big Blue have flaws? If so many authors have problems writing him well, is it safe to say that maybe there's a problem with the character?
What you should do is trick him into reading Hitman and sneak the Superman issue in there
Superman does not suck because he is a good person adhering to the set of morals instilled in him by his parents. Despite what people say in comparing him to Batman, Clark is human, that's a key aspect of the character. It's not so much an alien living among us and looking over us, but a man realizing he was born with amazing powers and using them to make the world a better place.
I would recommend Action Comics #775 as the easiest way to shut up people about how Superman's the suxorz. It contrasts Superman against hip edgy ironically cool killers, and why sticking to the principles of Truth, Justice, and the American Way is not something to snicker at.
Superman doesn't need to kill, he doesn't have to, because he's Superman. This is why you don't see killers filling Metropolis like Gotham, because he will always be there to stop a breakout (and he could probably fix Gotham too but Batman's always abloo abloo about it).
When written badly the story simple devolves into moralising, like JMS' work, or into Superman just pasting the crap out of enemies with little plot or suspense to keep you interested. If the writer relies on threat to Supes then he will usually fail to grab attention because there is no credible threat to Supes most of the time, that's the point.
A good Superman story will make you interested in Superman as a character and what his personal chocies are and how his relationships develop. He is great because he is such a true hero, and when he wins and comes out on top then a good writer makes that a great moment. This is especially true in recent years where there has been a movement towards grimmer heroes, and amongst all that grey Superman stands out as the true good guy. As someone who is not particularly big or tough, and who was never a cool kid at school, Superman appeal to me because he values being a nice guy and what kind of a person you are, not how you look, or how strong you are, or the class of your clothes, or whether you play rpgs or whatever.
Anyway, I'm sure that many people like him for different reasons. JMS certainly doesn't seem to see him like Texiken does for example.
I was thinking about bringing that issue up in my wall-of-questions post. It was one of the best Superman issues ever (in what is one of the best comics ever).
So, really, is his flaw kinda similar to Batman's flaw? I guess Batman wants to prevent harm from coming to anyone, which is not the same as wanting to save everyone.
How many stories can you write about Superman not getting to a dude in time to save him, or about Superman having a crisis of faith since he can't save everyone, or about Luthor accusing Superman of stymieing human progress by preventing humanity from dealing with problems by themselves?
I guess, as many as you can write about Wolverine being the best at what he does, U.S. Agent punching a dude, or Aaron Stack being full of very useful devices.
USAgent can never not punch enough dudes. Especially now that he's a paraplegic ass kicker.
With Superman, the good stories are the ones that have Superman doing things equivalent to his abilities. On the way to stopping a carnivorous planet from eating the sun, Superman can stop a car from running into a pedestrian. That is what he's capable of. The story Camelot Falls answers the question about Superman stopping humanity (short answer: it's like being able to save someone from falling off a porch but not saving them, good people just don't let it happen).
And this is why JMS' catalyst for his Grounded story is so flawed, because no one anywhere ever could fix a brain tumor but Superman.
Superman: Exile
It made me remember how much fun I had reading comics back then. When things like Crisis and Continuity didn't matter to me. Anyway, long story short, I thought Exile was an example of a Superman story done right.
Isn't that the story where Superman willingly kills? I remember hearing a lot about that and it causing much controversy.
The underlying theme of Byrne's Superman run, that I only really got rereading it, was that when he veered too much to the Kryptonian aspect of his heritage (killing Zod was in accordance to Kryptonian laws), Clark becomes much less the Superman we know and love, that you can't have Superman without the humanity of being a person. Kind of planetary peer pressure.
Earth first, always. God bless America.
You know, retconned out of existence.
Nevertheless, I found Geoff Johns Superman & the LSH a good read. I wish the Superman team took the Grant Morrison Batman approach. Everything happened one way or another. Okay maybe not Superman Red & Blue. Either one.
Honestly, I can't really stand that approach, because he's trying to cram in all sorts of ridiculous shit on a character that basically doesn't work like that at all. But then, I'm the only person in the world who apparently doesn't really care for Morrison's Batman all that much. Of course, from what I've read of Batman comics over the past decade or so, the best Batman is still BTAS Batman, hands down. Maybe I'm just a Negative Nellie with bad opinions, though. I expect the previous sentence to be bolded in some way, shape, or form.
It's pretty much what lionheart describes, a Superman story that attempts to reconcile the modern interpretation of the character with the more bizarre themes and motifs which characterized his earlier incarnations.
When done right, it doesn't feel excessive so much as rich.
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