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Issues with a girl (of course) [Solved, go ahead and lock]
Cherry Picker
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Registered User regular
I met a girl online. Specifically, Facebook. After about a year of talking, we met in real life at the university we both attend (we are both the same age).
We've clicked right off the bat, and I can tell that she likes me. The only issue is, she has a boyfriend. A boyfriend she's not happy with, but a boyfriend no less. And now I feel like "that guy". I mean, we haven't done anything, but since we hang out a lot, just us two, and I like her and I know she likes me, it feels wrong.
How should I proceed in this? I feel really guilty whenever I hang out with her. Do I just wait until she breaks it off with her boyfriend? Or should I tell her that I can't keep on waiting?
We've clicked right off the bat, and I can tell that she likes me. The only issue is, she has a boyfriend. A boyfriend she's not happy with, but a boyfriend no less. And now I feel like "that guy". I mean, we haven't done anything, but since we hang out a lot, just us two, and I like her and I know she likes me, it feels wrong.
How should I proceed in this? I feel really guilty whenever I hang out with her. Do I just wait until she breaks it off with her boyfriend? Or should I tell her that I can't keep on waiting?
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You know she likes you like that? Has she said something to this effect?
You wait. Don't press anything.
If she's not happy and you are clicking emotionally, she is basically emotionally cheating on her boyfriend. Weird thing, I know. But relationships require emotional and physical connections and when one of those clicks off... well it's not fair to the boyfriend, it isn't fair to you and honestly, she's shortchanging herself too probably by not just ending something that isn't working.
If you don't talk about it, you will keep hanging on and (maybe?) won't be happy in your current situation. If you up and find someone else, you will always wonder and if you wait and she doesn't break up with her boyfriend, you'll be pissed about that too.
So. I advise some tactful talking about the subject. If you in any way misinterpreted her, then you have to nod and accept it. It may mean the end of the friendship.
Read that part again. You calmly lay stuff out, hear what she says and if it is negative, you do not argue. Or you could just keep on going without talking about it. You'll get to keep hanging out with her and enjoying your emotional happy/sexual tension times.
edit: I think what I said above would have the happiest outcome if you were okay with her saying no and continuing to be her friend. BUT SOME PEOPLE CAN'T DO THAT. It's hard and it hurts. I'm not saying pressure her to break up, but life is too short to just meekly shuffle through it and miss out on a girl you think you would work with potentially. Honesty, polite assertiveness and respect are my favorite virtues, FYI!
This might be a good idea if she didn't have a boyfriend, but she does. And as far as we know, she hasn't actually told the OP that she actually has feelings. It's just something that he "can tell".
Were she single or had she actually said something, then yes, a conversation might be in order. But as it is, and as far as we know, that's a bad idea at present.
I'm sorry, are you advocating that he try and wreck a relationship because life is too short? You're saying that you're not saying to pressure her, but actually you are.
Also, "polite assertiveness" isn't a virtue.
If she says 'yes', then her relationship was about to end anyway. If she says 'no', then he says okay and moves on.
This isn't telling him to bust into their wedding and shout STOP I LOVE YOU.
He needs to wait and ask that when she's not in a relationship. Anything else is just selfish. We don't have near enough information to tell him to go charging in.
Whether or not the OP should tell her how he feels is entirely situational based on probably dozens of factors but I don't agree that he has to necessarily respect their relationship. Being in a relationship isn't some magical property that encapsulates the two people to the degree where everyone else in the world needs to avoid potentially "ruining" their relationship.
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Cherry Picker: I don't know what kind of advice you're looking for. If you can't answer "should I tell her?" for yourself, none of us will be able to. All of us are at a disadvantage here with context and information. You could write pages upon pages of minute details and we would still know considerably less than you. If what you're really looking for is moral absolution, well I don't know what to tell you there either. You define your own moral code. I clearly don't think there's anything wrong with telling her how you feel and Esh clearly feels the opposite. But all that matters is how you feel. So...I don't know what you're going to get from anyone here except a lot of abstract bickering over morals that won't aid you in your pursuit in any way, shape, or form.
Yes, but she is IN the relationship and that is something he should respect. Beyond the fact that maybe she just values his friendship and by telling her how he feels, he has a strong possibility of ruining that. Thus making it a selfish action.
And in life, who actually goes up to a person in a relationship and pours out their feelings like that? Seriously, how often do you see that happen? This isn't the movies. There's a reason it doesn't.
He doesn't have to respect the relationship. Sure. But if he wants to be a socially functioning individual, then he probably should. It's up to the people in the relationship to decide how it should end, not those outside of it unless there is some hugely mitigating circumstance, which there is not in this instance besides some vague feelings the OP has. We're going on what the OP is telling us, not your "dozens of (unknown) factors".
What he needs to respect is that this girl is a human being that can make her own adult decisions. Unless Cherry Picker actually coerces her, deceives her, or somehow manipulates her into trashing her relationship, as far as I'm concerned, he has zero culpability in what happens to their relationship.
Okay? And? Why are her feelings toward the OP the only ones that matter here? Why don't his feelings factor in? It's pretty clear: we don't really know what she wants, but he doesn't want to just be friends. So while that may be "selfish" as you say next, so what? It is what it is. He feels the way he does and he apparently doesn't want just a friendship. Why should he be forced to maintain a relationship with her that he doesn't want?
Oh well. You can't be 100% selfless all the time and have a completely enjoyable life. You need to balance the two out. I'm not saying be selfish/take every opportunity/fuck everyone else, but a bit of selfishness here and there isn't a terrible thing.
And really, which is more selfish? Secretly pining and lusting after someone forever, hoping for some kind of eventual romantic interest, while maintaining a guise of friendship, or a brief, potentially-painful act of honesty that could go either way, and that - if there is no reciprocal romantic interest - the friendship can potentially grow from. I'm not one to tout "honesty is the best policy" but in some cases it can be.
A lot of people?
Often.
Uh...
Excellent! So you understand...
...oh wait, I guess you didn't.
Yes, it's up to those INSIDE the relationship to RESPECT their relationship in whatever way they've agreed to. Whatever the two people in a relationship expect from each other is what they should adhere to, IF they respect the relationship. Some third party pretty much has nothing to do with that. If you're in a relationship, you are not entering some kind of contract with the rest of society, and the rest of society has no responsibility to make certain either or both members in a relationship respect it or adhere to it. Frankly, the rest of society doesn't and shouldn't give a crap about your relationship. It's the responsibility of each person IN the relationship to respect the relationship. And that's it. No one outside of the relationship has even a smidgen of responsibility.
Again, I repeat, this is the girl's relationship and she is fully capable of making her own decisions. Let's say best case scenario (for the OP): He tells her how he feels, she says "I love you too" and breaks up with her boyfriend etc. etc. etc., the OP wouldn't have done a single thing unethical in my opinion. It's not his responsibility to maintain their relationship and if him telling her how he feels about her is enough to pull her away from her relationship, then it was for the best. And it was wholly her decision at every step of the way.
No, they don't have to respect it, but then they're treading into selfish territory. That's not something anyone should be advocating. You're telling him he doesn't have to respect anything to do with their relationship. Of course he doesn't, but that would make him a shitty person based on nothing more than some feelings he thinks are there. No one has to do anything, but being respectful of other people and their desires (hers to be in her current relationship) is part of what makes a "good" person. If and when she exits this relationship, then he is in full rights to express his feelings. Until then, or until some sort of bombshell drops, then no, he has no right to.
What you're advocating is goosery. Attempting to interfere in someone else's existing relationship of which he knows little of is just wrong. You're giving him WAY too much go ahead on WAY too little information. You need to look at specific circumstance. Not a general picture. When you have next to no information, it is always best to err on the side of caution.
EDIT: You see this happen often? How well does that work out? Oh right, it doesn't. You also have seem to have no qualms about him ruining their friendship, which right there puts any advice you give into serious question.
EDIT 2: I'm not offering any further advice until OP comes back in and actually fills us in a bit more.
I am advocating that you open your mind a little and realize that this girl is as capable of making important decisions about her life as anyone else. And that she is the ONLY person who is responsible for making her decisions about her relationship.
Why you think the OP is in any way responsible for what she does is beyond me. Beyond deceit, coercion, or manipulation, he just isn't. It's baffling that you think he is.
And yes, I am suggesting that selfishness, at least to some degree, is not immoral. I'm sorry you disagree, but I absolutely 100% guarantee you've been selfish thousands of times in the past and you will be hundreds of thousands of times before you die. So many little actions in life are acts of selfishness. And some medium and big actions too. And there's nothing inherently wrong with that unless you feel that self-sacrifice is the be-all-end-all to morality. Which *I* think is an abominable level of goosery that nobody should ever be advocating, or even think themselves. Self-sacrifice is a nice little impractical inhuman fantasy.
What good people actually do is this: they do what they need to do to make themselves happy while causing as little harm as possible to others. This requires, quite often, a delicate balance. And mistakes happen. But life is complex, particularly when it comes to love and lust and anything regarding romance, and while you can sit there and try to make little catch-all rules ("it's always wrong to tell someone in a relationship how you feel about them!") I suggest that whether or not something is good or bad depends on the context, which we don't have enough of.
Anyway, when I say "he doesn't have to do X" I mean "it's not immoral to do X" or "it's not shitty to do X." It's completely moral to tell her how he feels if he chooses to. And it's completely immoral, Esh, to strip women (or men) of their individual agency once they enter a relationship. Cherry Picker is not morally responsible for what the woman chooses to do. It's as if you think she's some kind of fragile doll, that people in a relationship should never be told of any other potential romantic interest lest they be led down the path of straying from their current relationship. You seem to hold the perspective that many do: that once you are in a relationship, you either have to stay in it forever or abstractedly decide to leave because you just don't want to be in that relationship anymore. But if you leave because you've developed feelings for someone else, you're some kind of harlot.
You laughingly alluded to life not being like the movies. Let me explain how life works, Esh: Nobody ever just likes one person. No two people are entirely "perfect" for each other. No two people ever achieve perfect empathy with each other, even the most compatible. And sometimes people stay in an unhealthy or unhappy relationship for no reason other than that they'd rather not be lonely on their own, and a multitude of other reasons. Of course, a lot of people are in healthy, happy relationships too. If you're in a healthy, happy relationship and someone you're not interested in comes along and tells you how he or she feels, then most likely you'd just assimilate that information and go on with your relationship. If you're in a shitty relationship and this other person is offering a better prospect, maybe you'd consider it. And lets say you do. Is that wrong? Was it wrong for you to throw away your relationship for one that'll actually make you happy? Is that selfish? Absolutely. Is it morally wrong? Absolutely NOT. And is this better prospect a the "shitty person" you seem to think he or she would be, just by virtue of existing as a better prospect than the significant other? I don't see how.
But by all means, go on with your completely narrow impractical perspective that completely goes against the grain of human interaction and judge people through that lens. I personally think your point of view is immature nonsense.
I agree with Esh in the sense that I also think it is disrespectful to make moves on someone when you know they are in a relationship. I just find that to be in bad taste.
I do not think there is anything at all wrong with the girl in this example, though, to decide she'd rather be with Cherry Picker, leave her relationship, and then see what happens. I just don't like the idea of Cherry Picker being the one to float that possibility.
I guess we could use some more info but as a general rule, I think it's not a great way to start a relationship by poaching people out of existing relationships.
That isn't a selfish thing to do.
edit:
Err, why not?
that's why we call it the struggle, you're supposed to sweat
While she has a boyfriend?
That's why not.
You're going to need to expand on your reasoning, here.
If she decides she wants to stay with her boyfriend, then too bad. Everyone goes home, etc. If she decides she would rather date OP, that is also a reasonable decision. There's nothing unethical about it.
that's why we call it the struggle, you're supposed to sweat
If you really think the girl likes you then see where it goes. But if you want it to really mean anything then shes going to have to break up with her boyfriend first. If you just want sex then.. well it might be able to be that. Some people frown on people who are willing to do this (see Esh). I'm not making that judgment call here. If you want a meaningful emotional relationship that can lead to her being your girlfriend, she MUST breakup with the other dude first.
If she cheats on him, then breaks up with him and goes to you, she's basically an untrustable person and should be regarded as capable of cheating on you. If she breaks up with the other guy and goes instantly to you, at least it isn't cheating but it does seem pretty flakey. Then again if shes really in a bad situation with the other guy this isn't so flakey.... you have to decide for yourself. Just be aware of the possibility.
As for how you feel... you want to make a move. I can tell by your post. So do it, admit how you feel in as classy and smooth a manner as you can and if you want her, tell her that. If it goes well, it goes well and if it goes poorly then drop it and get on with your life, confident that you took a chance.
I'm not some master of girls or anything but i think that advice is legit. I say her having a boyfriend shouldn't stop you, unless this guy is a friend of yours or you've got to know him or something. In other words you don't owe him anything like respect unless, of course, you actually do.
edit: girls are not boyfriends!
He isn't telling the OP to forcibly try and pull the girl out of the relationship, he's telling him to lay his cards on the table and see where it goes from there.
I don't see how honesty and communication would make the OP a "shitty person". Sitting around on his thumbs for her to potentially break-up is a good recipe for hurt. Why should he do that to himself? If he admits his feelings now, and she
A: breaks up with her current boyfriend. Woo hoo, look at all that time and anxiety saved instead of waiting around. Boo hoo, the boyfriend got dumped, its not the OP's problem. Their relationship obviously wasn't doing so hot anyways. He'll get over it.
B: Rejects the OP. Misinterpreted the signals, whatever. Better now then after however long he spent waiting for her. His feelings are out, and he can decide if he wants to keep being her friend (without that big "MAYBE" looming over his head), or move on.
And fuck all this selfish bashing. Being selfish is good. EVERYONE is selfish (especially when you think you aren't). Its how you get happy.
So, we don't have to respect anyone we don't actually know or aren't friends with.
Goosery. Supreme Goosery.
If she is confident and happy with her boyfriend she won't be fazed by the OP saying he wants her.
I'm not saying cheat, here.
I find it's a pretty good rule of thumb to never wait on another person take the initiative. If you wait for another person to take an action, the default position of the universe is that they wont. Just do it yourself.
that's why we call it the struggle, you're supposed to sweat
Anyway, my advice is to wait till she's out of the relationship. If she's still in it, she obviously has a reason. If she likes you enough and it's obvious you like her too, she'll most likely exit it. And if she doesn't, well there are far greater issues going on.
I'll tell you one thing. The OP is definitely disrespecting himself if he doesn't.
I moved back to the city I live in now, told the girl I knew loved me (and I loved) that she didn't love her boyfriend and asked her to be with me. I was so horrible in doing this that she agreed and we dated then got engaged a few years later.
If I hadn't told her what I could feel in every part of me, I can't even begin to imagine the horrible regret I'd have to this day.
But if she'd said no, I'd have had to go on. But in this case, I knew.
The girlfriend? The current boyfriend? "Relationship" is like a sign on the door reading "Occupied" or "Do Not Disturb". Don't go knocking on it unless you think someone is dying inside.
"Poaching."
See, that's primarily what I have a problem with. You do know that the word "poach" is a synonym for "steal" right? And that you can only "steal" property, right? And that nobody owns another person, relationship or not, right? Meaning it's impossible to actually steal (or poach) someone from an existing relationship.
I'm sure you don't really see relationships as an analogue to ownership over another person, but the language people use to describe the kind of thing we're describing is very telling. It's always "stealing the boy/girl away from the girlfriend/boyfriend" and it is a vestige of when people really did think that way.
And frighteningly, people actually still DO think that way. Wasn't there a thread here just a few days ago about a friend (of that thread's original poster) who was married with kids and the husband was threatening to take her kids away if he left her? Some people really do feel entitled to command or dominate or "own" the other person once in a relationship.
I mean this is kind of a tangent, but I wonder why you used the word poach. What is it about a relationship that suddenly makes one of the individuals in that relationship "stealable" from it?
Frankly, I think that's nuts. And if your girlfriend is going to leave you because some 18 year old she met on Facebook a year ago sputtered out his feelings to her, you're better off. And I don't think the 18 year old is to blame, either. People feel however they feel and people decide to be in relationships or not.
People leave relationships for two reasons:
1) Because they are unhappy with the person they are with.
2) Because they like someone else better.
Unless you believe it is a moral imperative to be unhappy or less happy than a person can be, then neither of the above reasons are morally wrong. And if you agree that #2 is okay, well let's be practical. How can you know if you can have a relationship with someone "better" unless you know how they feel.
This kind of thing happens all the time. Sometimes it happens without even knowing the other person is in a relationship. If your concern is that the knowledge that someone else likes your girlfriend/boyfriend could lead them astray, well what's the difference if this third party knew that your girlfriend/boyfriend was in a relationship to begin with?
I mean you make it sound like the mere knowledge of third party attraction/interest is some kind of immortal thing. I dunno what to say to that. There's nothing immoral about putting your feelings out there if that's how you want to go. What someone in a relationship decides to do with that information is their own moral dilemma.
I'm FLOORED by your advice telling him to willing make himself suffer for the POSSIBILITY that she might break up with her bf sometime in the the future, and then hoping for the POSSIBILITY of her reciprocating her feelings. Life's too fucking short for that kind of mucking about. If this was any other relationship thread, everyone would be telling him to nut up and ask her out already.
What, you think the moment he tells her how he feels, she's going to get all shocked and appalled, and start fanning her face like a victorian madam? How DARE he communicate his feelings! What BARBARIC actions! HUFF! BOTHER!
Heh, fair point, and good long post.
To clear up the use of poach, I didn't place the connotation that you read into it. I deal with recruitment issues and it was the word that sprang to mind as being an analogue to hiring someone directly out of another company, which is often referred to as 'poaching' in my part of the world. (or headhunting, but that didn't spring to mind... would love to see your post if it had
Which is more along the lines of the concerns I have with this situation. Personally, I have a concern that getting into a relationship with someone fresh out of another relationship carries some risks, and as a general rule I think it's not ideal to take on those risks.
There's a locked thread on the forum right now where there are ONLY posts saying "Other person in a relationship already? Stay away!"
I seriously doubt there's any "suffering" going on here. That's why I'm advocating the waiting for certainty (remember, he has no idea if she likes him or not) or for at least until she's single. He can wait and gather a little more information rather than charge in blindly.
I think if he tells her and she's not into it he's going to lose a good friend.
Seriously done here now. Best of luck with whatever you decide.
Er, no, it's not like that.
This whole attitude about one guy "stealing" a girl away from another guy and the implication that she somehow isn't fit to be given information and make her own decisions is a little bit galling, frankly. It's like hey, if two dudes like the same woman we don't need to consider her opinion on the subject, since that would be disrespectful to the man.
Come on.
that's why we call it the struggle, you're supposed to sweat
I'd like to stress the importance of one thing though - no one has advocated or advised the OP to coerce/convince this girl cheat on her boyfriend. Maturely telling her of his feelings and laying his cards out to see where it goes is not underhanded, immoral or displaying an appalling lack of respect for her relationship. So long as the break up happens and no one is lying or using anybody, there is no fault - merely people being people.
Good luck OP, and to Drez - thanks for the read.
Augh. I can't believe this. LAST POST.
The girl chose and is in a relationship. If she wants something different, she'll choose something else.
I find it galling that people in this thread seem to think the girl is incapable of making her own decisions about what she wants unless the man prods her into it. Her decision is the only one worth considering, and you don't seem to think she's capable of making it for herself. If she wants to be in a relationship with the OP, I'm sure she's smart enough to exit her current one on her own.
Done. Done. Done.
I suppose I should say that I would have sided with Esh, but at one point I had a girlfriend leave me in that manner, and really I'd call a girl in a relationship fair (but harder to catch?) game.
EDIT: in response to Esh's last post, Carpe Diem.
And how is she supposed to know that the OP would be willing to enter a relationship?
Oh, right... with the two of them communicating.
What youre saying is that the OP should just sit around and wait for things to come to him.
Being the Nice Guy(TM) isn't the best advice in any situation. Even in a seemingly stronger relationship than exists here, if the OP feels that strongly about somebody, then they're better off saying so. Even at the cost of a good friendship.
Do not engage the Watermelons.