The new forums will be named Coin Return (based on the most recent vote)! You can check on the status and timeline of the transition to the new forums here.
The Guiding Principles and New Rules document is now in effect.

DC Universe Online Beta

RelexCryoRelexCryo Registered User regular
edited August 2010 in Games and Technology
I read the User Agreement for DCU Online Beta and I found it interesting. What really bothers me isn't the fact that the user agreement mentions that DC might charge you a fee for participating in the Beta without telling you how much that fee is (Section 1.7). What really bothers me is that in Section 5.2, They mention they get Power of Attorney.

What I understand of it is, if you fail to honor the vague obligations in section 5.1 they are automatically appointed your attorneys. So it becomes impossible to defend yourself against them. All the other stuff I can sort of see the reason for, but Power of Attorney? What do you guys think?

RelexCryo on

Posts

  • MorvidusMorvidus Registered User regular
    edited August 2010
    I know it's just me, but I will NEVER trust anything from Sony Online Entertainment. They tried to charge me for 6 years of Final Fantasy XI time, when I played the game for 2 weeks then cancelled my subscription. Fortunately, I still had the email from cancelling my sub, so they stopped their "collection efforts".

    Morvidus on
  • override367override367 ALL minions Registered User regular
    edited August 2010
    RelexCryo wrote: »
    I read the User Agreement for DCU Online Beta and I found it interesting. What really bothers me isn't the fact that the user agreement mentions that DC might charge you a fee for participating in the Beta without telling you how much that fee is (Section 1.7). What really bothers me is that in Section 5.2, They mention they get Power of Attorney.

    What I understand of it is, if you fail to honor the vague obligations in section 5.1 (which they reserve the right to alter at any time), they are automatically appointed your attorneys. So it becomes impossible to defend yourself against them. All the other stuff I can sort of see the reason for, but Power of Attorney? What do you guys think?

    It sounds about as likely to be legally valid as if they had declared they now could legally rape your daughter (so only in south carolina and kansas)

    override367 on
  • RelexCryoRelexCryo Registered User regular
    edited August 2010
    Morvidus wrote: »
    I know it's just me, but I will NEVER trust anything from Sony Online Entertainment. They tried to charge me for 6 years of Final Fantasy XI time, when I played the game for 2 weeks then cancelled my subscription. Fortunately, I still had the email from cancelling my sub, so they stopped their "collection efforts".

    You have got to be kidding me. That's just...criminal.

    RelexCryo on
  • BartholamueBartholamue Registered User regular
    edited August 2010
    I thought it was Square that ran servers, not Sony.

    Bartholamue on
    Steam- SteveBartz Xbox Live- SteveBartz PSN Name- SteveBartz
  • UltimanecatUltimanecat Registered User regular
    edited August 2010
    Actually, thought about it a bit and just decided I don't know enough about the EULA to comment on it at all...

    Ultimanecat on
    SteamID : same as my PA forum name
  • randombattlerandombattle Registered User regular
    edited August 2010
    I really dont think you would find a judge who would go along with something like that in court. Maybe in fantasy sony land court but not in reality court.

    randombattle on
    itsstupidbutidontcare2.gif
    I never asked for this!
  • UnluckyUnlucky That's not meant to happen Registered User regular
    edited August 2010
    I really dont think you would find a judge who would go along with something like that in court. Maybe in fantasy sony land court but not in reality court.
    I have always wondered, why is that? I mean, you are agreeing to Sony's terms and conditions, why would a judge throw it out?

    Unlucky on
    Fantastic
  • Captain KCaptain K Registered User regular
    edited August 2010
    No contract is ever concrete until it's tested in court, and all this situation would require is a persuasive lawyer convincing a judge that the concept of transfer of Power of Attorney in a MMO beta EULA is so absurdly out-of-place that the end user shouldn't even be expected to understand what it could possibly mean, and that it's total nonsense and shouldn't hold any water whatsoever.

    I mean, don't get me wrong, I don't practice or study law, but that's how I'd expect any court trial to turn out in this type of situation. But it's hard to imagine that any aggrieved end user of the DC Universe Online Beta will end up arguing a case into a courtroom.

    Captain K on
  • Road BlockRoad Block Registered User regular
    edited August 2010
    While I am unfamiliar with the American legal system, typically there are some things you can't sign away with the press of a button. Which, I would presume, would include Power of attorney to the people suing you, and being forced to give up an unspecified amount of money. For essentially the same reasons you can't sign a contract to be a person's slave. Because that would be insane.

    Road Block on
  • DocshiftyDocshifty Registered User regular
    edited August 2010
    Wouldn't being the prosecuting party, as well as the defendant's attorney be a bit of a legal conflict?

    Docshifty on
  • AldoAldo Hippo Hooray Registered User regular
    edited August 2010
    Has a EULA violation ever even lead to a court session of some kind? Last time I read a PA discussion about this the conclusion seemed to be that an EULA would not hold water in court and that a EULA is just a long-winded way of telling beta testers that the developer could kick you out whenever they felt like it.

    Aldo on
  • Captain KCaptain K Registered User regular
    edited August 2010
    It's also worth noting that (unless it's happened somewhat recently and I missed it) there really hasn't been a truly milestone court decision on how binding a contract the End User License Agreement really is*. For one thing, the US Supreme Court seems gun-shy when it comes to establishing any real precedent, and for another, we've yet to see a software entity try to do anything really absurd with a EULA that would generate big headlines and a well-publicized US Supreme Court decision.






    *I did just google up a pretty interesting decision by the Washington Supreme Court, which ruled in favor of a software company called Timberline Software Corp. after it was sued by M.A. Mortenson Co., a construction contractor that alleged Timberline's software prepared a faulty construction bid that was almost $2 million less than the contractor intended. The Washington Supreme Court ruled that the terms of limited liability included in the software "shrink wrap contract" did, in fact, protect Timberline from liability in this case.

    full article here



    I still don't think this qualifies as the court case that defines the power of the EULA. I'd love to hear somebody mention a truly milestone court decision on the issue. Prove me ignorant?

    Captain K on
  • blaklawblaklaw Registered User regular
    edited August 2010
    I'm no fan of EULAs or contracts of adhesion, but this sounds like there might be some serious misinterpretation going on. I didn't find this specific EULA via a quick google, but I'm fairly certain that a power of attorney doesn't pre-empt your rights. For example, I might give my friend a power of attorney to act on my behalf for the sake of convenience (maybe I'm out of the country a lot), but that doesn't mean she can override any of my decisions and just do whatever she wants- especially if I'm around to overrule her.

    A power of attorney, as far as I know from having dealt with them in the poverty law context for the past 7 years, can't deprive the grantor of any authority.

    But like I said, I haven't read this specific EULA.

    blaklaw on
    XBL/PSN: blaklaw
  • UltimanecatUltimanecat Registered User regular
    edited August 2010
    What I was trying to avoid in my above comment was weighing in on a EULA which I haven't seen. That said, IANAL but I am in law school...

    From the VERY basic description we have here (and I've tried to read the actual EULA online but surprisingly nothing comes up when you click on it) a section that gives full power of attorney of one party to another in case of a dispute would not be enforceable for any number of reasons - unconscionability (using unequal bargaining power to take unfair advantage), uncertainty (rights and obligations under the contract wouldn't be adequately defined here if one party could define its own terms and deny enforcement or challenge), and likely lack of consideration (both parties have to offer something of value in a contract - if one party gets to define what it is offering after the fact then it effectively isn't offering anything at all).

    Don't know enough, but that would be my general take on it.

    Ultimanecat on
    SteamID : same as my PA forum name
  • UltimanecatUltimanecat Registered User regular
    edited August 2010
    blaklaw wrote: »
    I'm no fan of EULAs or contracts of adhesion, but this sounds like there might be some serious misinterpretation going on. I didn't find this specific EULA via a quick google, but I'm fairly certain that a power of attorney doesn't pre-empt your rights. For example, I might give my friend a power of attorney to act on my behalf for the sake of convenience (maybe I'm out of the country a lot), but that doesn't mean she can override any of my decisions and just do whatever she wants- especially if I'm around to overrule her.

    A power of attorney, as far as I know from having dealt with them in the poverty law context for the past 7 years, can't deprive the grantor of any authority.

    But like I said, I haven't read this specific EULA.

    That's the basic gist of it - power of attorney means that a person is acting as your agent and can act for you in most any situation - including ones with legal ramifications, unless they are acting outside of the bounds of the authority given (ie you may give your friend power of attorney to sign to make deposits at your bank but not to take out a mortgage).

    The more I think of it, the more I'm thinking that this section is being misread. This sort of thing isn't unheard of in a contract, but it does not involve disputes between the parties to the contract - and I don't know if a lawyer anywhere would try to put this in as we're reading it here because it would be thrown out immediately. More likely it has something to do with disputes with third parties arising under the contract - you're giving SOE the right to arbitrate on your behalf. That would make much more sense and actually be, you know, legal.

    Ultimanecat on
    SteamID : same as my PA forum name
  • blaklawblaklaw Registered User regular
    edited August 2010
    I agree with your analysis of EULAs generally too. At least from what I remember from Contracts class anyways. I'm a litigator, and it always surprises me how much of my job turned out to be largely about contract law- but thankfully none of that is interpreting 'shrink-wrap' agreements like this.

    In the US at least, the validity of EULAs in general is still an open question. Different courts have gone different ways.

    But yeah, I think this one is being misread. Would love to see the text, if anyone can post a working link.

    blaklaw on
    XBL/PSN: blaklaw
  • AthenorAthenor Battle Hardened Optimist The Skies of HiigaraRegistered User regular
    edited August 2010
    Can an EULA be NDA'ed?

    Athenor on
    He/Him | "We who believe in freedom cannot rest." - Dr. Johnetta Cole, 7/22/2024
  • UltimanecatUltimanecat Registered User regular
    edited August 2010
    I'm avoiding the discussion of EULA's altogether - they're a whole other kettle of fish and on somewhat uncertain legal ground. Personally, being a nerd I can't stand the things but as of late the scales seem to be tipping toward them being accepted, both in the US and in other places.

    But under basic contract law, EULA or no there is still only so much you can get away with before any self-respecting court is just going to start calling you out on the bullshit. Signing away your right to actually have a dispute with the other party under the contract falls firmly into that category.

    Ultimanecat on
    SteamID : same as my PA forum name
  • AldoAldo Hippo Hooray Registered User regular
    edited August 2010
    I actually can't find the EULA when I check with my beta sign-up or when I try to sign up again. googling for dcuo eula doesn't do anything either. All I can find is a similar discussion to this one on Escapist, but even there the OP (or anyone else) fails to link to the complete EULA or to any kind of source at all.

    I like discussing things in good faith that the OP is not basing himself on hearsay, so OP: care to share a link?

    Aldo on
  • RelexCryoRelexCryo Registered User regular
    edited August 2010
    What I was trying to avoid in my above comment was weighing in on a EULA which I haven't seen. That said, IANAL but I am in law school...

    From the VERY basic description we have here (and I've tried to read the actual EULA online but surprisingly nothing comes up when you click on it) a section that gives full power of attorney of one party to another in case of a dispute would not be enforceable for any number of reasons - unconscionability (using unequal bargaining power to take unfair advantage), uncertainty (rights and obligations under the contract wouldn't be adequately defined here if one party could define its own terms and deny enforcement or challenge), and likely lack of consideration (both parties have to offer something of value in a contract - if one party gets to define what it is offering after the fact then it effectively isn't offering anything at all).

    Don't know enough, but that would be my general take on it.

    This isn't the sony station EULA. This is the DC Universe Online Beta EULA. You google DC Universe Online, click on the first page you see, and sign up for Beta. You will be asked to give your station I.D., then you will see the EULA. Simply scroll down to the various sections I mentioned.

    RelexCryo on
  • RelexCryoRelexCryo Registered User regular
    edited August 2010
    Aldo wrote: »
    I actually can't find the EULA when I check with my beta sign-up or when I try to sign up again. googling for dcuo eula doesn't do anything either. All I can find is a similar discussion to this one on Escapist, but even there the OP (or anyone else) fails to link to the complete EULA or to any kind of source at all.

    I like discussing things in good faith that the OP is not basing himself on hearsay, so OP: care to share a link?

    http://www.dcuniverseonline.com/

    See the beta button? You click it, then you click PC, then you type in your station Name/password. Then you see the EULA.

    Here, in full, is the entire EULA:

    In order to participate in the beta testing of DC Universe™ Online, you must read and accept the terms of use, license and non-disclosure agreement below. Please read the TERMS OF USE, LICENSE AND NON-DISCLOSURE AGREEMENT closely. By clicking the "I AGREE" button below, you agree to be legally bound by the terms of this agreement.

    (BETA TESTING OF A PRE-RELEASE GAME)

    Sony Online Entertainment LLC ("SOE") has designed, developed and intends to publish and offer services related to an online game and software product entitled DC Universe™ Online (the "Game"). SOE has established a beta test program (the "Beta Program") to, among other things, allow a limited number of people to test the features, capabilities and performance of one or more pre-release version(s) of the Game, including, without limitation, any and all associated media, graphics, printed or electronic materials and documentation (collectively, the "Beta Software") and provide feedback and comments to SOE.

    In order to participate in the Beta Program, you must have received a beta invitation from SOE and be the age of majority in your jurisdiction.

    Please read this Terms of Use, License and Non-Disclosure Agreement ("Agreement") closely and print a copy for your records. By clicking the "I Agree" button below, you are acknowledging that you have read, understood and agreed to be legally bound by and responsible for complying at all times with each of the promises, terms and conditions set forth herein.
    1. General Acknowledgements.

    1.1 You promise that you are the age of majority in your jurisdiction and you are entering into this Agreement on your own behalf ("You" or "Your").

    1.2 You acknowledge that You have read, agree to and will at all times abide by our Station Terms of Service (the "Terms of Service") and the Game rules of conduct (the "Rules of Conduct"), each of which is incorporated herein by this reference. Please note that we may amend our Terms of Service and/or Rules of Conduct from time to time in accordance with their terms and any such amendments shall also become part of this Agreement.

    1.3 You acknowledge that You have read our Privacy Policy ("Privacy Policy"), which is incorporated herein by this reference. Please note that we may amend our Privacy Policy from time to time in accordance with its terms and any such amendments shall also become part of this Agreement. You hereby expressly acknowledge and agree that SOE may collect, use and disclose information we have collected about You and/or Your account, including but not limited to Your username, password, country, date of birth, gender and the email address associated with Your account, and information regarding Your activities in the Beta Program, such as Your feedback and comments, System Information (as defined below), character and other Game-related information in accordance with our Privacy Policy maintaining the security and/or integrity of the Game and/or its users. Furthermore, we may use the information collected from You to protect You or a third party, to take precautions against liability, to respond to judicial process, to provide information to law enforcement agencies, and/or for an investigation on a matter related to public safety. Please refer back to our Privacy Policy for a complete list of how we may collect, use and disclose Your information and how You may request us to cease further contact with You, and/or have the personal information collected from You modified or deleted from our records.

    1.4 You acknowledge that You are not a principal, agent, contractor or employee of a developer, manufacturer or publisher of video or computer games (other than SOE or Warner Bros. Interactive Entertainment) and that you are entering into this Agreement on a voluntary basis with no expectation of consideration, remuneration or any form of compensation other than what is expressly provided for in this Agreement.

    1.5 You acknowledge that SOE may, in its sole discretion, and at any time before or during the Beta Program, accept or reject Your application or registration for the Beta Program (or suspend and/or terminate Your participation therein) and if You are accepted, this Agreement is a binding contract between You and SOE.

    1.6 You acknowledge that Your entry into the Beta Program shall not be complete, nor shall you be considered for entry into the Beta Program, until You provide SOE with certain requested DirectX diagnostic information from Your computer.

    1.7 You acknowledge that SOE may, in its discretion, charge a fee for the Beta Software and/or participation in the Beta Program, and your participation in the Beta Program is contingent on your payment of such fee(s).

    1.8 You acknowledge that SOE may, in its discretion, reschedule the start date or end date of the Beta Program, or suspend or terminate the Beta Program, at any time in its sole discretion.

    1.9 You agree, grant SOE the right and consent, for the term of your participation in the Beta Program, to allow SOE to upload certain DxDiag DirectX diagnostic information, hardware, software, driver, operating system and related information, including crash logs, from your computer solely for the purpose of analyzing, improving and maintaining the Game.

    2. License Terms.

    2.1 License Grant. Upon SOE's acceptance of Your application for entrance into the Beta Program, SOE grants You the nonexclusive, nontransferable, revocable, limited right to install the Beta Software onto Your computer for Your personal use. You may only use the Beta Software for testing and evaluation purposes as set forth in Section 2.4 below. All other rights are expressly reserved by SOE.

    2.2 License Restrictions. You shall not:

    (a) Sell, auction, loan, lease, barter, timeshare, rent, sublicense, transfer, transmit, publicly display, publicly perform, disclose or distribute the Beta Software (or any portion thereof, including, without limitation, any screenshots, videos, documentation or manuals relating to the Game) to any third party, or create, facilitate, host, link, network or provide any other means through which the Game may be played by others through interception, emulation or redirection of the communication protocols used by SOE, or otherwise use any other technique or method to enable unauthorized Gameplay or use of the Beta Software;

    (b) Except as may be permitted by applicable law, attempt to reverse engineer, decompile, decrypt or disassemble the Beta Software;

    (c) Attempt to directly or indirectly modify the Beta Software or change gameplay, or decrypt or modify any data transmitted between the Beta Software and SOE's servers;

    (d) Make copies of the Beta Software other than one (1) copy for back-up purposes to be used solely as a replacement for the original copy, provided that You include on the back-up copy all copyright and other notices that are included on the Beta Software and Your use of such back-up copy shall be subject to this Agreement; and

    (e) Export the Beta Software in violation of the export control and similar laws and regulations of the United States of America and other countries.

    2.3 Indemnification. You agree to indemnify, defend and hold harmless, and hereby release SOE, its direct and indirect parent, subsidiary and sister corporations and licensors, and all of their respective officers, directors, owners, employees, information providers, affiliates, licensors and licensees (collectively, "Indemnified Parties") from and against any and all losses, liabilities, claims, obligations, costs and/or expenses (including reasonable legal fees) incurred by any of the Indemnified Parties which result from, arise out of or in connection with: (i) any breach by You of this Agreement or any representations, warranties and/or covenants contained herein, or (ii) Your use of the Beta Software and/or all other services or activities related thereto.

    2.4 Testing and Evaluation Obligations. You hereby agree to perform all of the following obligations: (i) to test, evaluate and analyze the Beta Software and its operation, features, capabilities and performance, (ii) to comply with the reasonable requests of SOE from time to time regarding testing, and (iii) to provide feedback and comments to SOE (including, but not limited to, bug reports and test results). All of Your feedback and comments shall be the sole and exclusive property of SOE, SOE shall have the perpetual right to use all or part of Your feedback or comments in any manner or media now known or hereafter devised and such feedback and comments shall constitute "User Content", as described in and governed by the Terms of Service.

    2.5 System Information; Monitoring.

    You have no expectation of privacy in any such communication. You acknowledge and agree that SOE may transfer such information (including any personal information and personal data which You may provide) to the United States or other countries or may share such information with its sub-licensees and agents in connection with the Beta Program, Beta Software and the Game to the extent permitted under SOE's Privacy Policy.
    3. Term of the Agreement. Your participation in the Beta Program, and the grant of any and all licenses herein, may be suspended and/or terminated by SOE at any time, for any reason or for no reason, in SOE's sole and absolute discretion, by providing written or electronic notice to You. You may, at any time and for any reason or for no reason, terminate Your participation in the Beta Program by providing written or electronic notice to SOE. The Beta Program will be terminated upon the earlier of (a) SOE's written or electronic notice to You; or (b) the commercial release of the Game. Upon termination of this Agreement, You shall have no further rights to participate in the Beta Program or use the Beta Software and/or any services or activities related thereto. Notwithstanding the termination of Your participation in the Beta Program and/or the termination of the Beta Program, the provisions of this Agreement, other than Section 2.1 and Sections 2.4(i), 2.4(ii) and 2.4(iii), shall continue in full force and effect in perpetuity.

    4. Confidentiality.

    4.1 Confidential Information Defined. "Confidential Information" shall mean (a) any and all information relating to or contained in the Beta Software, Beta Program and/or the Game, including, without limitation, information relating to (i) the performance, capabilities, bugs and contents of the Beta Software, (ii) any feedback, posts and/or comments You may provide to us, (iii) any other Beta Program participant's feedback, posts and comments, and (iv) any SOE employee's feedback, posts and comments, (b) the existence and terms of this Agreement and the fact that You are participating in the Beta Program and (c) any and all information relating to the future or proposed games, services or business operations of SOE. Confidential Information includes, without limitation, all such information disclosed to You prior to the effective date of this Agreement. You acknowledge and agree that the Confidential Information constitutes valuable trade secrets of SOE.

    4.2 Confidentiality Obligation. You shall keep the Confidential Information in confidence and shall not publish, post, transmit, display, distribute, disclose, verify or otherwise make available, directly or indirectly, in any form or media, any Confidential Information to any third party. However, You may disclose the Confidential Information in accordance with a judicial or governmental order; provided, however, that You shall give SOE reasonable written notice prior to disclosure and shall comply with any applicable protective order or equivalent. ONCE THE COMMERCIAL VERSION OF THE GAME HAS BEEN RELEASED BY SOE TO THE PUBLIC, YOUR CONFIDENTIALITY OBLIGATION SHALL CONTINUE ONLY WITH RESPECT TO INFORMATION CONCERNING THIS BETA PROGRAM AND ALL FEEDBACK AND COMMENTS (WHETHER FROM YOU, ANY OTHER PARTICIPANT, OR FROM SOE EMPLOYEES).

    5. Ownership.

    5.1 By SOE. Except for the revocable, limited license expressly granted hereunder, SOE, and its licensors and suppliers, retain all rights, title and interests in and to the Beta Program, Beta Software, Game and all copies thereof, and all titles, computer code, themes, objects, game character data, names, stories, dialog, locations, concepts, artwork, landscape designs, animations, musical compositions and recordings, audio-visual effects, methods of operations, moral rights, related documentation and user manuals, and other data and information in connection therewith (the "SOE Rights"). The Beta Software is copyrighted and is protected by United States and applicable local copyright laws and international treaty provisions. You acknowledge that the Beta Software contains valuable trade secrets of SOE, and that SOE and its licensors and suppliers own all intellectual property rights in and to the Beta Software and the SOE Rights, including, without limitation, all patent rights, copyrights, inventions, trade secret rights, trade dress rights, trademark rights and intellectual property rights therein and thereto. You may not remove the copyright or other proprietary rights notices from the Beta Software. You agree that this Agreement shall be retained with all printed and electronic copies of the Beta Software and documentation constituting the Beta Software. You agree to prevent any unauthorized copying or distribution of the Beta Software. Except for the license as expressly provided herein, SOE does not grant You any express or implied right of any kind in or to any SOE Rights. In accordance with Section 2.4, You agree that SOE and/or its suppliers own all rights, title, and interests in any and all of Your feedback and comments, without any remuneration, compensation or credit to You. To the extent that any of the SOE Rights assigned herein cannot presently be assigned under applicable law, You agree to assign such rights at such time as the rights are capable of being assigned. You agree at SOE's request to execute such further documents and to do such further acts as may be necessary or desirable to document, perfect, register or enforce SOE's ownership of any of the rights, title and/or interests hereunder, in whole or in part including, without limitation, execution of a copyright assignment in a form provided by SOE in its sole discretion. The rights granted, assigned and/or to be assigned by You hereunder are granted worldwide and shall inure in perpetuity, and, as set forth above, no further consideration shall be payable to You at anytime in connection therewith. You will acquire no right to use, and will not use without SOE's prior written consent, any SOE Rights: (a) in any advertising, publicity or promotion; or (b) in any manner other than as permitted by and in accordance with this Agreement.

    5.2 Power of Attorney. If You fail or refuse to execute any documents in accordance with Section 5.1, You hereby appoint SOE as Your attorney in fact, which appointment is coupled with an interest and is irrevocable, to act on Your behalf and to execute, deliver, record and file such documents.

    6. Injunctive Relief. You acknowledge and agree that a breach or threatened breach of any covenant contained in this Agreement would cause irreparable injury, that money damages would be an inadequate remedy and that SOE shall be entitled to temporary and permanent injunctive relief, without the posting of any bond or other security, to restrain You, from such breach or threatened breach. Nothing in this Section 6 shall be construed as preventing SOE from pursuing any and all remedies available to it, including the recovery of money damages from You.

    7. No Warranty; No Liability For Damages; No Support; Character Data.

    7.1 No Warranty. You acknowledge that the Beta Software is a pre-release version and is not a final game. YOU ACKNOWLEDGE THAT THE BETA SOFTWARE MAY WELL CONTAIN ERRORS AND DEFECTS. THE BETA SOFTWARE IS PROVIDED "AS IS" WITHOUT ANY EXPRESS OR IMPLIED WARRANTY OF ANY KIND INCLUDING WARRANTIES OF SATISFACTORY QUALITY, MERCHANTABILITY, NON-INFRINGEMENT OF THIRD-PARTY INTELLECTUAL PROPERTY, OR FITNESS FOR ANY PARTICULAR PURPOSE. THE ENTIRE RISK AS TO THE QUALITY OF THE BETA SOFTWARE, BETA PROGRAM, THE GAME AND ALL OTHER SERVICES IS WITH YOU. SHOULD THE BETA SOFTWARE, BETA PROGRAM, THE GAME OR ANY RELATED SERVICES PROVE DEFECTIVE FOLLOWING THEIR RECEIPT BY YOU, YOU AND NOT SOE ASSUME THE ENTIRE COST OF ALL NECESSARY SERVICING OR REPAIR AND ALL USE BY YOU OF THE BETA SOFTWARE OR THE GAME IS AT YOUR SOLE RISK. Without limiting the foregoing, SOE does not ensure continuous, error-free, secure or virus-free operation of the CD-ROM or DVD-ROM (if any), the Beta Software, the Beta Program, the Game, Your account or continued operation or availability of any given server or game-related content or feature. Some states do not allow limitations as to how long an implied warranty lasts and/or exclusions or limitations of consequential damages, so the above limitations and/or exclusions of liability may not apply to You. This warranty gives You specific legal rights and You may also have other legal rights which vary from state to state.

    7.2 No Liability For Damages. EXCEPT TO THE EXTENT THAT LIABILITY CANNOT BE LIMITED OR EXCLUDED UNDER THE APPLICABLE LAWS OF YOUR JURISDICTION, INCLUDING WHERE AND TO THE EXTENT APPLICABLE, LIABILITY FOR DEATH OR PERSONAL INJURY CAUSED BY THE WILLFUL MISCONDUCT OR NEGLIGENCE OF ANY OF SOE, ITS DIRECT AND/OR INDIRECT PARENT, SISTER AND SUBSIDIARY CORPORATIONS, ENTITIES AND LICENSORS, OR ANY EMPLOYEES, AGENTS, OFFICERS AND/OR DIRECTORS OF ANY OF THE ABOVE (COLLECTIVELY, THE "SOE PARTIES") AND FRAUD ON THE PART OF ANY OF THE SOE PARTIES, IN NO EVENT SHALL ANY OF THE SOE PARTIES BE LIABLE FOR ANY DAMAGES WHATSOEVER (INCLUDING, WITHOUT LIMITATION, DIRECT, INDIRECT, INCIDENTAL, CONSEQUENTIAL, SPECIAL, PUNITIVE OR OTHER DAMAGES OR LOST PROFITS, DATA, INFORMATION OR BUSINESS) ARISING OUT OF THE USE OF OR INABILITY TO USE THE BETA SOFTWARE, BETA PROGRAM, THE GAME OR ANY SERVICES RELATED THERETO, EVEN IF ANY OF THE ABOVE HAS BEEN ADVISED OF THE POSSIBILITY OF SUCH DAMAGES. Without limiting the generality of the foregoing, nor do any of the foregoing parties provide any warranty whatsoever: (i) as to the accuracy, reliability, quality or content or any information, service or activity provided through or in connection with the Beta Program, Beta Software or Game, (ii) that the Beta Software will generate gameplay with the characteristics or specifications desired by You, or (iii) that the Beta Software or the Game will be error-free or uninterrupted. THESE DISCLAIMERS OF WARRANTY CONSTITUTE AN ESSENTIAL PART OF THIS AGREEMENT.

    SOME STATES OR JURISDICTIONS DO NOT ALLOW THE EXCLUSION OF STATUTORY OR IMPLIED WARRANTIES, OR THE EXCLUSION OR LIMITATION OF LIABILITY FOR CERTAIN TYPES OF DAMAGES, INCLUDING (AS APPLICABLE IN YOUR JURISDICTION), WARRANTIES OF TITLE, POSSESSION, FITNESS FOR A PARTICULAR PURPOSE, QUALITY, CORRESPONDENCE WITH A DESCRIPTION OR SAMPLE OF THE APPLICABLE GOODS, AND THAT SERVICES WILL BE CARRIED OUT AT A REASONABLE PRICE, USING REASONABLE SKILL AND WITHIN A REASONABLE TIME. IN SUCH STATES OR JURISDICTIONS THE LIMITATIONS AND EXCLUSIONS SET FORTH IN THIS SECTION 7.2 MAY NOT APPLY TO YOU. CONSEQUENTLY, IN SUCH STATES OR JURISDICTIONS, THE LIABILITY OF THE SOE PARTIES IS LIMITED TO THE EXTENT PERMITTED BY LAW, THEREBY MINIMIZING THE LIABILITY OF SUCH SOE PARTIES TO YOU TO THE LOWEST AMOUNT PERMITTED BY APPLICABLE LAW. THIS LIMITATION IS INDEPENDENT OF ANY OTHER LIMITATION SET FORTH IN THIS AGREEMENT.
    7.3 No Support. SOE does not provide any support for the Beta Software. However, SOE may provide an e-mail address and/or a password-protected message board for You to send any questions and/or comments regarding the Beta Software. SOE does not, however, make any representations or warranties as to the accuracy of any statements or advice provided in response to Your e-mail(s) and/or board postings.

    7.4 Test Environment. You acknowledge that the Beta Program is a test environment, that game characters and/or character data will be frequently wiped or modified at SOE's sole discretion, and that - notwithstanding any fee that You may be charged for participation in the Beta Program - Beta Program game characters and/or character data shall likely not be exported into the Game once the Game is commercially released.

    8. Miscellaneous.

    8.1 Governing Law; Jurisdiction. This Agreement shall be governed by and construed and enforced in accordance with the laws of the State of California excluding conflict of law rules and principles. The UN Convention on Contracts for the International Sale of Goods is expressly disclaimed. Both parties submit to personal jurisdiction in California and further agree that any cause of action relating to this Agreement shall be brought in the County of San Diego, State of California (if under State law) or the Southern District of California (if under federal law) and such courts shall have exclusive jurisdiction to determine the validity, construction and performance of this Agreement and the legal relations between the parties hereto. You hereby waive any claim that such venue is improper or inconvenient.

    8.2 Severability. If any provision of this Agreement shall be held invalid, unlawful or unenforceable, in whole or in part, such provision shall be modified to the minimum extent necessary to make it valid and enforceable, and the validity and enforceability of all other provisions of this Agreement shall not be affected thereby.

    8.3 Assignment; Waiver. You may not assign or transfer this Agreement or Your rights hereunder, and any attempt to the contrary is void. No waiver by either party of any breach or default hereunder shall be deemed to be a waiver of any preceding or subsequent breach or default.

    8.4 Notice.SOE may give notice to You by electronic mail to Your e-mail address on record in SOE's account information, or by written communication sent by first class mail, postage prepaid, or overnight courier to Your address on record in SOE's account information. You may give notice to SOE by electronic mail to accounts@soe.sony.com or by first class mail, postage pre-paid, or overnight courier to Sony Online Entertainment LLC, 8928 Terman Court, San Diego, CA 92121 Attn: Accounts.

    8.5 Entire Agreement. This Agreement, together with the Terms of Service and Privacy Policy, constitutes the entire agreement between the parties hereto relating to the subject matter hereof and supersedes all prior oral, electronic, digital and written and all contemporaneous oral negotiations, commitments and understandings of the parties. Changes made by You to this Agreement will not be effective unless set forth in a writing describing the change and agreed to and signed by SOE and You. SOE reserves the right to change the terms of this Agreement at any time upon notice to You in accordance with Section 8.4. Such changes by SOE shall be effective upon notice to You and Your continued participation in the Beta Program after notice of a change in terms by SOE shall constitute Your acknowledgement of, and agreement to, be bound by such changes.

    Please note that certain people are susceptible to epileptic seizures or loss of consciousness when exposed to certain flashing lights or light patterns in everyday life. Such people may have a seizure while watching certain monitor images or playing certain video games. This may happen even if the person has no medical history of epilepsy or has never had any epileptic seizures. If you or anyone in your family has ever had symptoms related to epilepsy (seizures or loss of consciousness) when exposed to flashing lights, consult your doctor prior to playing. If you experience any of the following symptoms: dizziness, blurred vision, eye or muscle twitches, loss of consciousness, disorientation, any involuntary movement or convulsion, while playing a video game, immediately discontinue use of the video game and consult your doctor.
    Please also note that when using a video game you should take certain standard health and safety precautions, including avoiding playing the game when tired, taking 10 to 15 minute breaks every hour, sitting a reasonable distance from the screen, and playing the game in a well-lit environment.
    DC UNIVERSE ONLINE software © 2010 Sony Online Entertainment LLC. All other elements © 2010 DC Comics. SOE and the SOE logo are registered trademarks of Sony Online Entertainment LLC. The rating icon is a registered trademark of the Entertainment Software Association. All other trademarks and trade names are the property of their respective owners. All rights reserved.

    DC UNIVERSE and all related characters and elements are trademarks of and © DC Comics.

    WB GAMES, WBIE LOGO, WB SHIELD: ™ & © Warner Bros. Entertainment Inc.

    RelexCryo on
  • UltimanecatUltimanecat Registered User regular
    edited August 2010
    Alright, that makes a good deal more sense. Again, IANAL and am not offering legal advice:

    You're not making SOE your Attorney with a capital A in 5.1 and 5.2. Those two sub-sections fall under the OWNERSHIP section. 5.1 basically tells you that SOE owns everything about the game and you don't get anything but a license to play it while you have the beta. Any reports, comments, or other material generated by you for the beta become completely theirs. 5.2 says that if for some reason assigning rights to that material requires documents to be created and executed, you give SOE the right to do it for you. It does not say that they can act in court for you in a dispute with you.

    As for 1.7 - again, not that strange. They can decide to charge a fee if they want. If they do, and you don't like it, you lose access to the beta. It would be bad if you had to pay but were still stuck in the beta until it was over (thus they could squeeze money out of you unilaterally), but that isn't what it says.

    Ultimanecat on
    SteamID : same as my PA forum name
  • RelexCryoRelexCryo Registered User regular
    edited August 2010
    Alright, that makes a good deal more sense. Again, IANAL and am not offering legal advice:

    You're not making SOE your Attorney with a capital A in 5.1 and 5.2. Those two sub-sections fall under the OWNERSHIP section. 5.1 basically tells you that SOE owns everything about the game and you don't get anything but a license to play it while you have the beta. Any reports, comments, or other material generated by you for the beta become completely theirs. 5.2 says that if for some reason assigning rights to that material requires documents to be created and executed, you give SOE the right to do it for you. It does not say that they can act in court for you in a dispute with you.

    As for 1.7 - again, not that strange. They can decide to charge a fee if they want. If they do, and you don't like it, you lose access to the beta. It would be bad if you had to pay but were still stuck in the beta until it was over (thus they could squeeze money out of you unilaterally), but that isn't what it says.

    Section 1.7 : Is it possible they could charge you $50.00, and send you a bill if you refuse to pay? And then hurt your credit score if you didn't pay? I ask because some bussinesses (Hospitals, Hotels, etc.) spring surprise charges on you and then demand you pay them. Then they hurt your credit score if you don't pay. If it works for them, why wouldn't it work for an MMO? I am not saying they will do that, I am saying the contract gives them legal room to do it.

    Sections 5.1 and 5.2: They don't just have power to acquire and record documents (which in some cases would require pulling information off your computer without your consent) They have the power to execute the actions they deem necessary to protect their copyright. If you fail to comply with the actions they deem necessary, they get the power of attorney necessary to execute those documents. That seems pretty vague to me.

    RelexCryo on
  • AthenorAthenor Battle Hardened Optimist The Skies of HiigaraRegistered User regular
    edited August 2010
    If they even breathe a whisper of a charge, all you have to do is present written or electronic documentation for Sony saying you wish to leave the Beta. This seems no different than the process of canceling a Microsoft Xbox Live account.

    As for the power of attorney, my uninformed, uneducated guess is that Sony's covering their asses after the Star Wars Galaxies fiasco with them. In essence, they want to codify that every thing you do in relation to this game, from screenshots to text sent about the game, belongs to them to do with as they wish. It reminds me a lot of LucasFilm trying to control SW fanfiction by sanctioning it on their website, but gaining full ownership of anything in it.

    So in other words, you have no rights with this game, and no creative control in it. If creative control needs to be exercised, Sony will do it for you. So tough cookies.

    Athenor on
    He/Him | "We who believe in freedom cannot rest." - Dr. Johnetta Cole, 7/22/2024
  • UltimanecatUltimanecat Registered User regular
    edited August 2010
    I can charge you $50 right now if I want to. Fact is, anybody can send you a bill for any supposed service they've rendered. What is generally not kosher is changing the price after the fact. They would not have legal room to retroactively make you owe them money without you agreeing to the charge first.

    As for 5.1 and 5.2 I tried to keep it simple. The gist of it is not that they can compel you to do whatever they want to protect their copyright. It is that if you somehow create something that you'd normally have the rights to within the beta, you hand over those rights and will do everything necessary to make that happen. If you don't, they step in and do it for you.

    Ultimanecat on
    SteamID : same as my PA forum name
  • AldoAldo Hippo Hooray Registered User regular
    edited August 2010
    "1.7 You acknowledge that SOE may, in its discretion, charge a fee for the Beta Software and/or participation in the Beta Program, and your participation in the Beta Program is contingent on your payment of such fee(s)."

    I think 'contingent' is the magic word, here. It's a word I'm not familiar with, but it seems to mean that if you don't pay, you don't get to dick around in their beta any more. Seems reasonable and I guess it is related to a PS3 beta or something. Charging for a PC beta seems like a surefire way to make everyone drop the game beta like it's hot because: why pay for an unfinished superhero MMO while there's 2 superhero MMOs that are finished already?

    Anyway, thanks for sharing with us, OP.

    Aldo on
  • DisDis Registered User regular
    edited August 2010
    What?
    Who reads the EULA?

    Dis on
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • AldoAldo Hippo Hooray Registered User regular
    edited August 2010
    Dis wrote: »
    What?
    Who reads the EULA?
    That sounds like a rhetoric question, doesn't it?

    Or a redundant question.

    Aldo on
Sign In or Register to comment.