I don't think there's a trademark or anything on DotA so they can probably use it if they want. I'd be very surprised though if Valve actually released something called Defense of the Ancients(or some other DotA acronym). Everybody was expecting that Icefrog was brought on to do something in that genre though, that's generally how Valve operates.
Well, Team fortress started as a mod for quake, and they didnt bother changing the name with the sequel or the other version. So why not call it Dota 2 or something if the creator/main man is the one working on it.
There will be a few of these, but yeah, they're all independent of dota and icefrog now. I imagine it'll be more organized than the original roc dota -> dota allstars transition at least.
Well, Team fortress started as a mod for quake, and they didnt bother changing the name with the sequel or the other version. So why not call it Dota 2 or something if the creator/main man is the one working on it.
He is not the creator, so it will probably not have the name.
Team Fortress 2 had nothing at all to do with the creators of Team Fortress. Neither did Team Fortress Classic.
There's also a distinction between RoC dota (Reign of Chaos), dota, and dota allstars. The guys who made the original dota left and formed an indie studio, then created League of Legends. IceFrog took over and changed the map to dota allstars. This is also when it started to get really good for competitive play. IceFrog has been the total driving force behind the game ever since, and oversees all changes and balance fixes personally, which means he has control over the metagame. He does take input from top players and testers, though.
Having a single person in charge of everything helps in the way the metagame evolves. Though he takes input from other people, he still has a singular vision and goal in mind. It's almost always toward more aggressive play, which is what most players want. On the other hand, things could probably go a little faster. There's sometimes 8+ weeks between major content updates, and he's a recluse. I don't know if Valve will want him to be more or less vocal and interactive. I hope he gets to keep control over most everything in the game, though.
Interesting. Wonder what they'll change, hopefully being able to connect and replace people in games in progress for one.
I like several things about DoTA but that's a major problem along with the community which I have never seen to be worse in any other game. It's a cesspool of disgruntled assholes.
I hope if it is Dota, that it either flat out doesn't incorporate, or has options to turn off things like creep killing and such. As a casual player, I find the system super cool and a fun idea, but having to sit and kill your own guys so the enemy can't always seemed anti-fun to me. I like the game, I don't like the hardcore stuff. I know lots of people do, so a less hardcore toggle would be great.
I hope if it is Dota, that it either flat out doesn't incorporate, or has options to turn off things like creep killing and such. As a casual player, I find the system super cool and a fun idea, but having to sit and kill your own guys so the enemy can't always seemed anti-fun to me. I like the game, I don't like the hardcore stuff. I know lots of people do, so a less hardcore toggle would be great.
There's already Easy Mode in dota, where denying creeps doesn't make nearly as much of a difference because the default gold income is so high that you don't need great creep stats to get your items, so casuals shouldn't have a problem. There's no reason to remove one of the most important parts of the game when there's already been a solution for years.
The initial laning phase, where denying is most important, doesn't last that long anyway, and there's so much ELSE going on that it's just something you do. There's never really a time when both sides are just sitting there creeping while ignoring each other, especially in higher level play. You start off with so little hp that getting positional advantage can get you free kills early.
I never really understood the complaint about denies in the first place, because it was so insignificant. Even pro players wind up with like, 10 denies a game average. Creep pulling was WAY more devastating in terms of EXP/Gold denied, but no one seems to complain about it because it was less prominent.
Oh, well I just remember being yelled at alot for not doing it and finally giving up on dota since the skill level got to be so high in general and there's so many characters it has quite a bit to learn. Probably just me though.
It's less prominent in pubs, that's for sure, and easy enough to stop in higher level play.
Denies can be a huge factor though, especially in the solo lane. Actually, since a lot of (Asian) teams are running tri-lanes it means there are 2 solos, so more chance for one team to pull ahead there. But really, creep kills are more important, since it's the support that's going for the denies.
Huh. I dunno if that is such a legitimate move for Valve. The game was initially created by someone no longer associated with it, and while Icefrog has (apparently) done the vast bullwark of updating, I'm still not sure the name was his to give out. Seems Valve might have been better off just coming up with a new name, rather than Trademarking something they, IMO, don't have undeniable rights to.
The only people who would dispute the claim already have a game of the same style that uses a different name. From everything I've seen the split was amicable enough that there's no reason for them to be petty.
The only people who would dispute the claim already have a game of the same style that uses a different name. From everything I've seen the split was amicable enough that there's no reason for them to be petty.
Well, not to disparage Valve, but they're kinda Johnny-Come-Lately's to the whole DotA thing, so if anyone is going to get the benefit of owning the name, it really shouldn't be them. In my stupid little happy foo-foo world where everyone is nice, it just seems to me that if the League of Legend and Heroes of Newarth guys choice not to use the name, even though they had claim to it, Valve should agree not to use it either. Just out of professional courtesy
This possibility makes me happy. I like League of Legends but the 7 consecutive loading steps make it really annoying to get a game started and I'm really missing built-in voice chat. And Steam integration!
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Profile -> Signature Settings -> Hide signatures always. Then you don't have to read this worthless text anymore.
The only people who would dispute the claim already have a game of the same style that uses a different name. From everything I've seen the split was amicable enough that there's no reason for them to be petty.
Well, not to disparage Valve, but they're kinda Johnny-Come-Lately's to the whole DotA thing, so if anyone is going to get the benefit of owning the name, it really shouldn't be them. In my stupid little happy foo-foo world where everyone is nice, it just seems to me that if the League of Legend and Heroes of Newarth guys choice not to use the name, even though they had claim to it, Valve should agree not to use it either. Just out of professional courtesy
Heroes of Neweth has nothing to do with it.
The timeline is like this:
Guy decides to make a WC3 version of Aeon of Strife, a Starcraft map. He calls it Defence of the Ancients. When WC3:TFT was released he stops updating and people start making their own versions (though some still play the old maps, now referred to as RoC DotA). The best, and most popular new version of dota is called Defence of the Ancients: Allstars. This version soon overtakes all the others, and becomes popular enough to spawn a competitive community. In fact, the new version eclipses to old so that when people talk about dota now they're really talking about dota allstars. Eventually the guy who was working on dota allstars decides he wants to go do his own thing and hands the map over to IceFrog, who keeps developing it in a new direction while the old developers form the studio that eventually makes League of Legends.
Years later Heroes of Newerth comes along, made by people that had nothing to do with the original map, but just liked it a lot. They set about copying dota allstars wholesale into their own engine, while League of Legends comes out with a game that is like dota, but has different goals and ideas. Around the time Heroes of Newerth is in beta and Starcraft 2 is firmly on the horizon Icefrog announces that he has no plans to port WC3 dota into SC2, and has instead made a deal with Valve to develop his own game while he keeps updating WC3 dota (which he has).
It's harder to get a complete picture of everything that's happened because up until very recently Icefrog made almost no effort to communicate with just about anyone but top players and whoever was helping him with the map. Even though he's agreed to interviews and started his own blog he still posts infrequently and gives only ideas about what he's trying to do. He's not said a word about Valve since he first said he'd signed with them.
In the end, the guys who originated the dota map handed the whole thing over to Icefrog when they left to make LoL, so if anyone could possibly dispute Icefrog then it would be them, and like I said before, there's no good reason for them to do so.
The only people who would dispute the claim already have a game of the same style that uses a different name. From everything I've seen the split was amicable enough that there's no reason for them to be petty.
Well, not to disparage Valve, but they're kinda Johnny-Come-Lately's to the whole DotA thing, so if anyone is going to get the benefit of owning the name, it really shouldn't be them. In my stupid little happy foo-foo world where everyone is nice, it just seems to me that if the League of Legend and Heroes of Newarth guys choice not to use the name, even though they had claim to it, Valve should agree not to use it either. Just out of professional courtesy
Heroes of Neweth has nothing to do with it.
The timeline is like this:
Guy decides to make a WC3 version of Aeon of Strife, a Starcraft map. He calls it Defence of the Ancients. When WC3:TFT was released he stops updating and people start making their own versions (though some still play the old maps, now referred to as RoC DotA). The best, and most popular new version of dota is called Defence of the Ancients: Allstars. This version soon overtakes all the others, and becomes popular enough to spawn a competitive community. In fact, the new version eclipses to old so that when people talk about dota now they're really talking about dota allstars. Eventually the guy who was working on dota allstars decides he wants to go do his own thing and hands the map over to IceFrog, who keeps developing it in a new direction while the old developers form the studio that eventually makes League of Legends.
Years later Heroes of Newerth comes along, made by people that had nothing to do with the original map, but just liked it a lot. They set about copying dota allstars wholesale into their own engine, while League of Legends comes out with a game that is like dota, but has different goals and ideas. Around the time Heroes of Newerth is in beta and Starcraft 2 is firmly on the horizon Icefrog announces that he has no plans to port WC3 dota into SC2, and has instead made a deal with Valve to develop his own game while he keeps updating WC3 dota (which he has).
It's harder to get a complete picture of everything that's happened because up until very recently Icefrog made almost no effort to communicate with just about anyone but top players and whoever was helping him with the map. Even though he's agreed to interviews and started his own blog he still posts infrequently and gives only ideas about what he's trying to do. He's not said a word about Valve since he first said he'd signed with them.
In the end, the guys who originated the dota map handed the whole thing over to Icefrog when they left to make LoL, so if anyone could possibly dispute Icefrog then it would be them, and like I said before, there's no good reason for them to do so.
Firstly, sorry, I thought some of the people who worked on DotA went to make HoN. My bad.
Anywho, there's a very real possibility that Valve will now use the DotA name (which the original DotA guys pioneered, and have legitimate claims to) to create a product that will compete with LoL. I'd call that a VERY good reason.
Maybe, but WC3 dota already competed with them, and hon competes with both. Icefrog has no problem with hon, he's said so himself. Maybe the others would, but I doubt it. Even though they'd be in the same genre, Icefrog made a lot of changes to dota after he took over, and his cryptic statements about his new game have seem to say that it'll be more along the lines of dota than LoL, meaning they'll have different audiences and design goals.
Maybe, but WC3 dota already competed with them, and hon competes with both.
We're talking trademarks and copyrights through, not genre concepts. There's not much they can do about HoN, and it's not like they have any control of DotA, since it's a freely available map for another game. The genie isn't getting back into the bottle there. And again, it's a free map, not a competing retail product, which is what Valve's DotA might be.
Icefrog has no problem with hon, he's said so himself.
We weren't talking about Icefrog were we? He was in charge of the second iteration of DotA, not the first from what you've said.
Maybe the others would, but I doubt it. Even though they'd be in the same genre, Icefrog made a lot of changes to dota after he took over, and his cryptic statements about his new game have seem to say that it'll be more along the lines of dota than LoL, meaning they'll have different audiences and design goals.
Really? You don't see a potential loss of userbase between "League of Legends: 'From creators of DotA'" and "Valve's DotA?"
but we aren't comparing an adventure/puzzle game with a twitchy first-person shooter here. they're both DoTA
They're not though. LoL changed several core things. In fact, most of the dota playing friends of mine, especially the hardcore players, couldn't stand LoL and all went to HoN.
Guinsoo and Pendragon happily handed Dota off to Icefrog. He controls that game now and owns it as much as anyone can. Now he works for Valve, so I see no reason why they should feel bad about using the name.
And it's not the fact that there will BE competition, which is a totally legitimate part of the industry, but it's the fact that this name, which the creators made and put out freely onto the internet (which, more than anything, should invalid that copyright ANYWAY) will be used to compete directly against them.
If that makes things any clearer.
EDIT: Apparently I took too long to make that post and I missed that the LoL guys didn't come up with the DotA name either, which makes the situation more complicated.
We're talking trademarks and copyrights through, not genre concepts.
The guy who actually came up with the name DotA is the mapmaker Eul, not Guinsoo/Pendragon, who are the guys involved in League of Legends. Just FYI.
Okay, but still, my point is valid in that Valve doesn't have the claim to copyright on it. I suppose if they tracked down the Eul guy, and got his permission or the rights from him then it's okay though. (But again, the prior use thing would make the copyright kinda pointless. It was in free use all over the internet long before Valve got the copyright on it. I'm not sure it's actually enforceable.)
And it's not the fact that there will BE competition, which is a totally legitimate part of the industry, but it's the fact that this name, which the creators made and put out freely onto the internet (which, more than anything, should invalid that copyright ANYWAY) will be used to compete directly against them.
If that makes things any clearer.
Well, to be technical, when created, the game name was Defense of the Ancients.
Valve seems to have literally just trademarked DOTA, which could lead us to assume that it will stand for something else.
Maybe, but WC3 dota already competed with them, and hon competes with both.
We're talking trademarks and copyrights through, not genre concepts. There's not much they can do about HoN, and it's not like they have any control of DotA, since it's a freely available map for another game. The genie isn't getting back into the bottle there. And again, it's a free map, not a competing retail product, which is what Valve's DotA might be.
Icefrog has no problem with hon, he's said so himself.
We weren't talking about Icefrog were we? He was in charge of the second iteration of DotA, not the first from what you've said.
Maybe the others would, but I doubt it. Even though they'd be in the same genre, Icefrog made a lot of changes to dota after he took over, and his cryptic statements about his new game have seem to say that it'll be more along the lines of dota than LoL, meaning they'll have different audiences and design goals.
Really? You don't see a potential loss of userbase between "League of Legends: 'From creators of DotA'" and "Valve's DotA?"
What I mean is that A: Icefrog has nearly as legitimate claim tot he name as the LoL guys do, and B: Icefrog's dota and LoL will probably be so different that the audiences for both would overlap, but wouldn't be the same.
I know if I was Eul I would be suing or at least asking for some money for basically taking my name and my map concept and totally ripping it off. He should own the rights to he name at least. I knew him for abit through the community, played quite abit of DoTA with him, and was helping him test/balance is latest map he was designing for TfT. It was very much like DoTA but more RPGish. Was really cool, then he just kinda dropped off the radar.
Tommatt on
0
Seguerof the VoidSydney, AustraliaRegistered Userregular
WearingglassesOf the friendly neighborhood varietyRegistered Userregular
edited August 2010
Sorry to be a newb, but what's the difference between the different DotA-style (okay, AoS) games?
In terms of infrastructure
League of Legends - has free content, but has a premium section with more awesome stuff
DemiGods - ???
Heroes of Newearth - ???
Posts
http://www.playsotis.com/
Ceterum autem censeo, Carthaginem esse delendam
There will be a few of these, but yeah, they're all independent of dota and icefrog now. I imagine it'll be more organized than the original roc dota -> dota allstars transition at least.
Anyone want to beta read a paranormal mystery novella? Here's your chance.
stream
He is not the creator, so it will probably not have the name.
There's also a distinction between RoC dota (Reign of Chaos), dota, and dota allstars. The guys who made the original dota left and formed an indie studio, then created League of Legends. IceFrog took over and changed the map to dota allstars. This is also when it started to get really good for competitive play. IceFrog has been the total driving force behind the game ever since, and oversees all changes and balance fixes personally, which means he has control over the metagame. He does take input from top players and testers, though.
Having a single person in charge of everything helps in the way the metagame evolves. Though he takes input from other people, he still has a singular vision and goal in mind. It's almost always toward more aggressive play, which is what most players want. On the other hand, things could probably go a little faster. There's sometimes 8+ weeks between major content updates, and he's a recluse. I don't know if Valve will want him to be more or less vocal and interactive. I hope he gets to keep control over most everything in the game, though.
Anyone want to beta read a paranormal mystery novella? Here's your chance.
stream
All right, people. It is not a gerbil. It is not a hamster. It is not a guinea pig. It is a death rabbit. Death. Rabbit. Say it with me, now.
Maybe I was thinking of Threewave or something.
Anyone want to beta read a paranormal mystery novella? Here's your chance.
stream
I like several things about DoTA but that's a major problem along with the community which I have never seen to be worse in any other game. It's a cesspool of disgruntled assholes.
Hell, with 3rd party programs and garena there's been reconnects in dota for a while now.
I'm planning on seeing something new, though. Something unexpected. That's what I count on Icefrog for.
Anyone want to beta read a paranormal mystery novella? Here's your chance.
stream
http://tarr.uspto.gov/servlet/tarr?regser=serial&entry=85102245
Now that you mention it ...
So basically you want them to make LoL
The initial laning phase, where denying is most important, doesn't last that long anyway, and there's so much ELSE going on that it's just something you do. There's never really a time when both sides are just sitting there creeping while ignoring each other, especially in higher level play. You start off with so little hp that getting positional advantage can get you free kills early.
Anyone want to beta read a paranormal mystery novella? Here's your chance.
stream
Denies can be a huge factor though, especially in the solo lane. Actually, since a lot of (Asian) teams are running tri-lanes it means there are 2 solos, so more chance for one team to pull ahead there. But really, creep kills are more important, since it's the support that's going for the denies.
Anyone want to beta read a paranormal mystery novella? Here's your chance.
stream
Huh. I dunno if that is such a legitimate move for Valve. The game was initially created by someone no longer associated with it, and while Icefrog has (apparently) done the vast bullwark of updating, I'm still not sure the name was his to give out. Seems Valve might have been better off just coming up with a new name, rather than Trademarking something they, IMO, don't have undeniable rights to.
Anyone want to beta read a paranormal mystery novella? Here's your chance.
stream
Well, not to disparage Valve, but they're kinda Johnny-Come-Lately's to the whole DotA thing, so if anyone is going to get the benefit of owning the name, it really shouldn't be them. In my stupid little happy foo-foo world where everyone is nice, it just seems to me that if the League of Legend and Heroes of Newarth guys choice not to use the name, even though they had claim to it, Valve should agree not to use it either. Just out of professional courtesy
Heroes of Neweth has nothing to do with it.
The timeline is like this:
Guy decides to make a WC3 version of Aeon of Strife, a Starcraft map. He calls it Defence of the Ancients. When WC3:TFT was released he stops updating and people start making their own versions (though some still play the old maps, now referred to as RoC DotA). The best, and most popular new version of dota is called Defence of the Ancients: Allstars. This version soon overtakes all the others, and becomes popular enough to spawn a competitive community. In fact, the new version eclipses to old so that when people talk about dota now they're really talking about dota allstars. Eventually the guy who was working on dota allstars decides he wants to go do his own thing and hands the map over to IceFrog, who keeps developing it in a new direction while the old developers form the studio that eventually makes League of Legends.
Years later Heroes of Newerth comes along, made by people that had nothing to do with the original map, but just liked it a lot. They set about copying dota allstars wholesale into their own engine, while League of Legends comes out with a game that is like dota, but has different goals and ideas. Around the time Heroes of Newerth is in beta and Starcraft 2 is firmly on the horizon Icefrog announces that he has no plans to port WC3 dota into SC2, and has instead made a deal with Valve to develop his own game while he keeps updating WC3 dota (which he has).
It's harder to get a complete picture of everything that's happened because up until very recently Icefrog made almost no effort to communicate with just about anyone but top players and whoever was helping him with the map. Even though he's agreed to interviews and started his own blog he still posts infrequently and gives only ideas about what he's trying to do. He's not said a word about Valve since he first said he'd signed with them.
In the end, the guys who originated the dota map handed the whole thing over to Icefrog when they left to make LoL, so if anyone could possibly dispute Icefrog then it would be them, and like I said before, there's no good reason for them to do so.
Anyone want to beta read a paranormal mystery novella? Here's your chance.
stream
Firstly, sorry, I thought some of the people who worked on DotA went to make HoN. My bad.
Anywho, there's a very real possibility that Valve will now use the DotA name (which the original DotA guys pioneered, and have legitimate claims to) to create a product that will compete with LoL. I'd call that a VERY good reason.
Anyone want to beta read a paranormal mystery novella? Here's your chance.
stream
We're talking trademarks and copyrights through, not genre concepts. There's not much they can do about HoN, and it's not like they have any control of DotA, since it's a freely available map for another game. The genie isn't getting back into the bottle there. And again, it's a free map, not a competing retail product, which is what Valve's DotA might be.
We weren't talking about Icefrog were we? He was in charge of the second iteration of DotA, not the first from what you've said.
Really? You don't see a potential loss of userbase between "League of Legends: 'From creators of DotA'" and "Valve's DotA?"
but we aren't comparing an adventure/puzzle game with a twitchy first-person shooter here. they're both DoTA
They're not though. LoL changed several core things. In fact, most of the dota playing friends of mine, especially the hardcore players, couldn't stand LoL and all went to HoN.
Guinsoo and Pendragon happily handed Dota off to Icefrog. He controls that game now and owns it as much as anyone can. Now he works for Valve, so I see no reason why they should feel bad about using the name.
Edited for a bit of clairty
If that makes things any clearer.
EDIT: Apparently I took too long to make that post and I missed that the LoL guys didn't come up with the DotA name either, which makes the situation more complicated.
Okay, but still, my point is valid in that Valve doesn't have the claim to copyright on it. I suppose if they tracked down the Eul guy, and got his permission or the rights from him then it's okay though. (But again, the prior use thing would make the copyright kinda pointless. It was in free use all over the internet long before Valve got the copyright on it. I'm not sure it's actually enforceable.)
Well, to be technical, when created, the game name was Defense of the Ancients.
Valve seems to have literally just trademarked DOTA, which could lead us to assume that it will stand for something else.
What I mean is that A: Icefrog has nearly as legitimate claim tot he name as the LoL guys do, and B: Icefrog's dota and LoL will probably be so different that the audiences for both would overlap, but wouldn't be the same.
Anyone want to beta read a paranormal mystery novella? Here's your chance.
stream
Ceterum autem censeo, Carthaginem esse delendam
That's a huge pet peeve of mine. They are AoS maps, damnit!
Theres dota dota, free collection dota, angrier expensive pretty dota and lonely dota.
guess which is which
In terms of infrastructure
League of Legends - has free content, but has a premium section with more awesome stuff
DemiGods - ???
Heroes of Newearth - ???
In terms of gameplay
LoL - ???
DG - ???
HoN - ???