Why do I have to temper my reaction for the sake of the person who offended me? They don't owe me any consideration but suddenly all my reactions have to be done through some sort of Buddha prism?
Because obviously people should have complete control over and take complete responsibility for their reactions but not put any thought into controlling or taking responsibility for their actions.
What makes rape a special case—and here is where I'm flabbergasted that Tycho and Gabe are so confused about this—is that rape is an incredibly common trauma. One in four women have been raped. So while, yes, it's no more "offensive" than jokes about pedophelia or murder, the chances are much higher that if you joke about rape, you are making someone uncomfortable.
I think they were more confused that this particular rape comic was the one that got people offended. It's not like they've never made comics about rape before. As they said, they've created a character whose sole existence is to rape fruit. And don't forget the comic where corporations created a robot for the sole purpose of raping their customers.
Not everyone who reads a daily webcomic has an encyclopedic knowledge of that webcomic's entire run.
Not to mention that being offended or triggered by a gratuitous rape joke doesn't mean someone automatically has to be offended by other jokes.
Notice I never said people don't have a right to be offended by this comic. Just that rape jokes are nothing new for Penny Arcade, in contrast to the point that Qingu was trying to make.
Why do I have to temper my reaction for the sake of the person who offended me? They don't owe me any consideration but suddenly all my reactions have to be done through some sort of Buddha prism?
Because obviously people should have complete control over and take complete responsibility for their reactions but not put any thought into controlling or taking responsibility for their actions.
The original joke is not told with the intent to offend. But if someone is going to freak out and act like a goose over it, then sure, pile the fuck on them. I don't have to step on eggshells around people just because they are a goose and enjoy freaking out.
You have the right to get offended, but you deserve the mockery that comes after it.
Of course it's told with the intent to offend. That's the whole point.
There's no reason that comic had to include a rape reference. The only possible reason it was written as a rape reference is to make the situation more offensive.
It's disingenuous at best to assume that artists never intentionally try and provoke and offend, and to shift all of the responsibility to the audience.
Or maybe, just maybe, they were trying to mock a video game contrivance and getting a laugh out of an absurd situation. But I guess that's too simple an answer for you, and that assuming guilt makes much more sense.
Yes, please be more condescending, it really helps the conversation flow.
The main joke of the strip, the one mocking the contrivances of MMO gameplay, doesn't require them to make a rape reference. So why did they?
Probably a passing thought. They needed a way to make this a horrible horrible experience to emphasize the "LOL, MMO quests can make you out to be a horrid being sometimes!" joke. Rape fits the bill, rape is horrible.
I actually don't understand why this is taking so much heat, it's not like they made rape out to be the joke or to be funny, it's just to emphasize the actual joke.
if someone holds the broader view that rape is kind of sniggered at or tacitly condoned, then i don't think it's unreasonable that they might object to instances where they feel that rape is being sniggered at.
i wasn't offended by this comic, but i guess i understand why some people might object to it
I saw the described situation as being completely outside of the realm of reality. I can see someone who has been raped having a negative reaction to a joke about rape that describes a realistic situation (ha ha, dad raped you ha ha). But the idea of someone being raped by a wolf made of dicks seems too bizarre to dredge up trauma from an actual rape.
Modern Man on
Aetian Jupiter - 41 Gunslinger - The Old Republic
Rigorous Scholarship
People need to look at things from a third person perspective. Which I guess is sort of "enlightenment". Like if you see a person get called an offensive word, most people don't get personally offended by it. But if you get called an offensive word, you DO get offended by it. What's the difference? Because it's you? So what? If you look at yourself as a third person, you tend to let a lot more stuff roll off your back.
How you view a third person insult:
"That person called Bob an offensive word. How will he react?"
How most people view a first person insult:
"That person called me an offensive word." REACTION
How you should view a first person insult:
"That person called me an offensive word. How will I react?"
Notice how the third person insult and how you should view your own insults are identical, only swapping out Bob with you.
Instead of being insulted and immediately having an emotional response to it, you should stop and decide what sort of emotional response you actually want to have. You really do get to choose, I promise. :P
Why do I have to temper my reaction for the sake of the person who offended me? They don't owe me any consideration but suddenly all my reactions have to be done through some sort of Buddha prism?
Maybe reaction was the wrong word to use. Replace react with "feel". If someone says something offensive to you, you can choose to feel offended or not.
I recall one time when I was playing Quake II with a guy at a LAN. We were having a blast and then I killed him and he calls me a "bitch" I then jokingly proceed to say "yo mama's a bitch" and he flips out, throws off his headset, and gets in my face wanting to fight me. What I see there is lack of any control of his emotions. He expect me to not be offended when he calls me a bitch, but when I call his mom a bitch, in a joking manner, he flips out and gets offended. First off, why should he let me anger him over something I said?
Why would he get angry that someone called his mom a bitch? Is she really a bitch? If he doesn't think she's a bitch, why does it matter what I call her? I don't know his mother personally. I'm sure his mother is a nice lady. But it was a joke, and he flipped out over it... Because he felt the need to have a negative reaction when someone insulted his mother. When in fact, there was no need for any of it. He could have just shrugged and continued playing. Instead he had to make a point that I offended him.... to the point where he wanted to become violent... All because I said a string of words that he didn't like.
It's just silly to me. Don't get offended. It's really that simple.
The original joke is not told with the intent to offend. But if someone is going to freak out and act like a goose over it, then sure, pile the fuck on them. I don't have to step on eggshells around people just because they are a goose and enjoy freaking out.
You have the right to get offended, but you deserve the mockery that comes after it.
Of course it's told with the intent to offend. That's the whole point.
There's no reason that comic had to include a rape reference. The only possible reason it was written as a rape reference is to make the situation more offensive.
It's disingenuous at best to assume that artists never intentionally try and provoke and offend, and to shift all of the responsibility to the audience.
Or maybe, just maybe, they were trying to mock a video game contrivance and getting a laugh out of an absurd situation. But I guess that's too simple an answer for you, and that assuming guilt makes much more sense.
Yes, please be more condescending, it really helps the conversation flow.
The main joke of the strip, the one mocking the contrivances of MMO gameplay, doesn't require them to make a rape reference. So why did they?
Because it was a funny line. Sometimes, that's all the intent you'll find behind a joke.
I actually don't understand why this is taking so much heat, it's not like they made rape out to be the joke or to be funny, it's just to emphasize the actual joke.
It's because they used the word 'raped.' That's all it takes for some people to get offended, context be damned.
The original joke is not told with the intent to offend. But if someone is going to freak out and act like a goose over it, then sure, pile the fuck on them. I don't have to step on eggshells around people just because they are a goose and enjoy freaking out.
You have the right to get offended, but you deserve the mockery that comes after it.
Of course it's told with the intent to offend. That's the whole point.
There's no reason that comic had to include a rape reference. The only possible reason it was written as a rape reference is to make the situation more offensive.
It's disingenuous at best to assume that artists never intentionally try and provoke and offend, and to shift all of the responsibility to the audience.
Or maybe, just maybe, they were trying to mock a video game contrivance and getting a laugh out of an absurd situation. But I guess that's too simple an answer for you, and that assuming guilt makes much more sense.
Yes, please be more condescending, it really helps the conversation flow.
The main joke of the strip, the one mocking the contrivances of MMO gameplay, doesn't require them to make a rape reference. So why did they?
To emphasize the point, that this is a horrific situation and the disinterest by the PC in helping just because they finished the quest is even more egregious.
So no one was offended by the beaten awake part of the strip? Was that really necessary? Or the slavery part of the joke? Was that really necessary? I mean they could have made it about picking flowers, why didn't they, how DARE they.
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Irond WillWARNING: NO HURTFUL COMMENTS, PLEASE!!!!!Cambridge. MAModeratormod
edited August 2010
what's odd is that many of the south park-loving stalwarts i see in some threads who like to proclaim that they "make fun of everyeone and are not offended by anything it's just a joke jesus get a sense of humor"
are the same people who blow a fuckin fuse if anyone pokes fun of nerds or japanimation or whatever their particular subculture or interest or cause is.
I actually don't understand why this is taking so much heat, it's not like they made rape out to be the joke or to be funny, it's just to emphasize the actual joke.
It's because they used the word 'raped.' That's all it takes for some people to get offended, context be damned.
Whereas for most people who get offended at the word "rape," the context does matter. Context which appears to make light of the trauma of rape tends to matter, for example.
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HachfaceNot the Minister Farrakhan you're thinking ofDammit, Shepard!Registered Userregular
what's odd is that many of the south park-loving stalwarts i see in some threads who like to proclaim that they "make fun of everyeone and are not offended by anything it's just a joke jesus get a sense of humor"
are the same people who blow a fuckin fuse if anyone pokes fun of nerds or japanimation or whatever their particular subculture or interest or cause is.
People are generally allergic to any criticism of their behavior, of any kind.
People need to look at things from a third person perspective. Which I guess is sort of "enlightenment". Like if you see a person get called an offensive word, most people don't get personally offended by it. But if you get called an offensive word, you DO get offended by it. What's the difference? Because it's you? So what? If you look at yourself as a third person, you tend to let a lot more stuff roll off your back.
How you view a third person insult:
"That person called Bob an offensive word. How will he react?"
How most people view a first person insult:
"That person called me an offensive word." REACTION
How you should view a first person insult:
"That person called me an offensive word. How will I react?"
Notice how the third person insult and how you should view your own insults are identical, only swapping out Bob with you.
Instead of being insulted and immediately having an emotional response to it, you should stop and decide what sort of emotional response you actually want to have. You really do get to choose, I promise. :P
Why do I have to temper my reaction for the sake of the person who offended me? They don't owe me any consideration but suddenly all my reactions have to be done through some sort of Buddha prism?
You aren't tempering your reaction for the sake of the person who cracked the joke, you're tempering your reaction for your own sake.
Either the person made the joke without malicious intent in which case you're just freaking out and getting spun up over a non issue and need to grow up and get some thicker skin, or the joke was made with malicious intent in which case you're just giving them what they want and fueling the fire. Either way you lose.
And if it wasn't made maliciously and you're that thin skinned, you really shouldn't be interacting with any sort of comedic material because it's all satire and mockery.
Do you think George Carlin should have gone around apologizing to every person/group he mocked and offended?
what's odd is that many of the south park-loving stalwarts i see in some threads who like to proclaim that they "make fun of everyeone and are not offended by anything it's just a joke jesus get a sense of humor"
are the same people who blow a fuckin fuse if anyone pokes fun of nerds or japanimation or whatever their particular subculture or interest or cause is.
An interesting aside, but I don't know that this is helpful here.
Although I would be interested in seeing if certain posters in this thread have things that make them upset if you joke about it....
if someone holds the broader view that rape is kind of sniggered at or tacitly condoned, then i don't think it's unreasonable that they might object to instances where they feel that rape is being sniggered at.
i wasn't offended by this comic, but i guess i understand why some people might object to it
I saw the described situation as being completely outside of the realm of reality. I can see someone who has been raped having a negative reaction to a joke about rape that describes a realistic situation (ha ha, dad raped you ha ha). But the idea of someone being raped by a wolf made of dicks seems too bizarre to dredge up trauma from an actual rape.
i understand. it's mostly trying to be funny by putting rape in a conceptually absurd context.
like i said, it didn't offend me.
but if railing against the casual and inappropriate use of the term "rape" by the gaming community was my thing, then i would definitely have a problem with this comic
o no one was offended by the beaten awake part of the strip? Was that really necessary? Or the slavery part of the joke? Was that really necessary? I mean they could have made it about picking flowers, why didn't they, how DARE they.
But nobody in PA's audience has experienced being in slavery. That part of the joke would not evoke a traumatic memory.
what's odd is that many of the south park-loving stalwarts i see in some threads who like to proclaim that they "make fun of everyeone and are not offended by anything it's just a joke jesus get a sense of humor"
are the same people who blow a fuckin fuse if anyone pokes fun of nerds or japanimation or whatever their particular subculture or interest or cause is.
You're expecting anime fans to be offended by rape?
I actually don't understand why this is taking so much heat, it's not like they made rape out to be the joke or to be funny, it's just to emphasize the actual joke.
It's because they used the word 'raped.' That's all it takes for some people to get offended, context be damned.
Whereas for most people who get offended at the word "rape," the context does matter. Context which appears to make light of the trauma of rape tends to matter, for example.
But that's the thing, the comic isn't even making light of the topic. Sorry to be a Tim Buckley here but basically it goes.
Panel 1: Hey, that beast is a hero of sorts and that guy needs rescuing.
Panel 2: OMG, this guy's situation is horrible. Rape and beatings are horrible.
Panel 3: Oh wow, that hero is horrible. Oh, it's a quest, he can't take more slaves. They're trying to rationalise why this happens in mmos if the characters had to rationalise their actions.
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Deebaseron my way to work in a suit and a tieAhhhh...come on fucking guyRegistered Userregular
what's odd is that many of the south park-loving stalwarts i see in some threads who like to proclaim that they "make fun of everyeone and are not offended by anything it's just a joke jesus get a sense of humor"
are the same people who blow a fuckin fuse if anyone pokes fun of nerds or japanimation or whatever their particular subculture or interest or cause is.
Everyone likes to think they have thick skin.
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Irond WillWARNING: NO HURTFUL COMMENTS, PLEASE!!!!!Cambridge. MAModeratormod
what's odd is that many of the south park-loving stalwarts i see in some threads who like to proclaim that they "make fun of everyeone and are not offended by anything it's just a joke jesus get a sense of humor"
are the same people who blow a fuckin fuse if anyone pokes fun of nerds or japanimation or whatever their particular subculture or interest or cause is.
An interesting aside, but I don't know that this is helpful here.
Although I would be interested in seeing if certain posters in this thread have things that make them upset if you joke about it....
i guess i'm basically saying that i do not accept the sincerity of the stated viewpoint that "no sacred cows it's just a joke it's stupid to get offended about anything"
The problem with rape jokes is not so much that they remind victims of their trauma.
The issue is more that making light of serious problems is a great way to trivialize them.
We live in a society where rape is a very common and serious problem. There is a common attitude that it's actually not a problem, that it's rare, that it occurs because of crazed individuals and not ingrained social problems. Making jokes about rape is like making racist jokes, in that they trivialize and normalize a real
problem.
Art with intent to offend can be a wonderful, thought-provoking exercise. Similarly, talking about something in order to explore hurt is a great way to kill that hurt.
Neither applies in this situation. A flippant public joke about rape is almost guaranteed to hurt someone -- someone who has done nothing other than be the victim of sexual violence.
Offending religious fundamentalists? Fine, be provocative. Offending rape victims by making lolz about their trauma then getting pissy about it? Are you even fucking human?
This is a good post.
Not that I agree with the subject matter but it really shows how this can take effect.
Now, don't think I'm mocking you or anything, I'm serious and just want answers.
What gave you this impression? Why do you think that the joke is 'flippant'? Why do you think it is 'making lolz about their trauma'? Why does this not apply to religious fundamentalists?
It's flippant because it's made casually. It inserts rape into a joke that isn't about rape or requires a rape joke. It could be anything, but it's rape, meaning that it was included as a conscious decision. To be fair, it is a funny line, and honestly it's funny because it's pretty horrifying -- but rape is a horror that's pretty close to a dismayingly large number of people.
Similarly, a Mohammed joke is going to offend a large number of people, but it offends them because of an ideological belief, and maybe that deserves to be made light of. A rape joke offends someone because they've experienced an almost unthinkably brutal trauma, and maybe that isn't the kind of thing you should feel too good about using to make lolz.
I mean, nobody's going to stop anyone from making jokes like this, and if the authors want to get defensive about it that's their right, but it does push the social contract a bit. We live together in a big ol' community and picking this hill to fight on -- not even necessarily to die on, but just to fight over -- makes that community just a little more hostile and just a little more slow to trust. It makes all of our dialogues just a little more difficult.
what's odd is that many of the south park-loving stalwarts i see in some threads who like to proclaim that they "make fun of everyeone and are not offended by anything it's just a joke jesus get a sense of humor"
are the same people who blow a fuckin fuse if anyone pokes fun of nerds or japanimation or whatever their particular subculture or interest or cause is.
An interesting aside, but I don't know that this is helpful here.
Although I would be interested in seeing if certain posters in this thread have things that make them upset if you joke about it....
i guess i'm basically saying that i do not accept the sincerity of the stated viewpoint that "no sacred cows it's just a joke it's stupid to get offended about anything"
Do you think George Carlin should have gone around apologizing to every person/group he mocked and offended?
For the record, I don't think there was anything wrong with the original PA strip that provoked the outcry. My comment below should not be interpreted as a specific criticism of PA.
However, a lot of people look at a comic like George Carlin or Lenny Bruce, see the "shock the bourgeoisie" element to their act, and then run with that as a blanket endorsement of being an asshole. But shocking conventional sensibilities means something very different than, say, picking on an oppressed minority, or randomly calling someone a cunt.
I actually don't understand why this is taking so much heat, it's not like they made rape out to be the joke or to be funny, it's just to emphasize the actual joke.
It's because they used the word 'raped.' That's all it takes for some people to get offended, context be damned.
Whereas for most people who get offended at the word "rape," the context does matter. Context which appears to make light of the trauma of rape tends to matter, for example.
But that's the thing, the comic isn't even making light of the topic. Sorry to be a Tim Buckley here but basically it goes.
Panel 1: Hey, that beast is a hero of sorts and that guy needs rescuing.
Panel 2: OMG, this guy's situation is horrible. Rape and beatings are horrible.
Panel 3: Oh wow, that hero is horrible. Oh, it's a quest, he can't take more slaves. They're trying to rationalise why this happens in mmos?
I don't think PA intended to make light of rape. However, as irond said, they used the term and imagery associated it in a casual and flippant manner, and the imagery was explicit. Absurd, but much more explicit than "fruit fucker" (you can't "rape" fruit).
It doesn't bother me. However, I can see how it would bother a rape victim. The claim that such a person needs to "try" to get bothered by it is sort of infuriating.
what's odd is that many of the south park-loving stalwarts i see in some threads who like to proclaim that they "make fun of everyeone and are not offended by anything it's just a joke jesus get a sense of humor"
are the same people who blow a fuckin fuse if anyone pokes fun of nerds or japanimation or whatever their particular subculture or interest or cause is.
An interesting aside, but I don't know that this is helpful here.
Although I would be interested in seeing if certain posters in this thread have things that make them upset if you joke about it....
i guess i'm basically saying that i do not accept the sincerity of the stated viewpoint that "no sacred cows it's just a joke it's stupid to get offended about anything"
Do you think George Carlin should have gone around apologizing to every person/group he mocked and offended?
No, but then I don't think he went around being suprised and then angered by the fact that he offended people.
That's what's crazy to me here... they made a joke about rape, however tangentially related, and then act surprised that some people get offended by that.
I'm not saying they shouldn't joke about whatever they want, but a byproduct of that is they are GOING to offend someone. And believe me, every zen master in here telling people they just need to harness their emotions has at least one thing in this universe that will offend them.
Sentry on
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
wrote:
When I was a little kid, I always pretended I was the hero,' Skip said.
'Fuck yeah, me too. What little kid ever pretended to be part of the lynch-mob?'
The problem with rape jokes is not so much that they remind victims of their trauma.
The issue is more that making light of serious problems is a great way to trivialize them.
We live in a society where rape is a very common and serious problem. There is a common attitude that it's actually not a problem, that it's rare, that it occurs because of crazed individuals and not ingrained social problems. Making jokes about rape is like making racist jokes, in that they trivialize and normalize a real
problem.
This attitude basically means that people should only make jokes about trivial things. So, no jokes about war, racism, societal injustice, rape, gangs, pedophilia, government corruption or anything that is serious business.
Modern Man on
Aetian Jupiter - 41 Gunslinger - The Old Republic
Rigorous Scholarship
what's odd is that many of the south park-loving stalwarts i see in some threads who like to proclaim that they "make fun of everyeone and are not offended by anything it's just a joke jesus get a sense of humor"
are the same people who blow a fuckin fuse if anyone pokes fun of nerds or japanimation or whatever their particular subculture or interest or cause is.
An interesting aside, but I don't know that this is helpful here.
Although I would be interested in seeing if certain posters in this thread have things that make them upset if you joke about it....
i guess i'm basically saying that i do not accept the sincerity of the stated viewpoint that "no sacred cows it's just a joke it's stupid to get offended about anything"
I'd say it's extremely goosey to be professionally offended and constantly demand that you're a sacred cow that can't be the butt of jokes. People like that deserve to be mocked.
The problem with rape jokes is not so much that they remind victims of their trauma.
The issue is more that making light of serious problems is a great way to trivialize them.
We live in a society where rape is a very common and serious problem. There is a common attitude that it's actually not a problem, that it's rare, that it occurs because of crazed individuals and not ingrained social problems. Making jokes about rape is like making racist jokes, in that they trivialize and normalize a real
problem.
This attitude basically means that people should only make jokes about trivial things. So, no jokes about war, racism, societal injustice, rape, gangs, pedophilia, government corruption or anything that is serious business.
no
it says that it's reasonable and understandable that someone might get offended at a joke that trivializes something they feel strongly about
what's odd is that many of the south park-loving stalwarts i see in some threads who like to proclaim that they "make fun of everyeone and are not offended by anything it's just a joke jesus get a sense of humor"
are the same people who blow a fuckin fuse if anyone pokes fun of nerds or japanimation or whatever their particular subculture or interest or cause is.
An interesting aside, but I don't know that this is helpful here.
Although I would be interested in seeing if certain posters in this thread have things that make them upset if you joke about it....
People tend to only get upset about things if they have a real chip on their shoulder about it, those people are flawed.
In the case of anime, fuck I watch a lot of anime, good stuff, bad stuff, who cares. I also play a lot of video games. My apartment is full of anime/gaming posters, TV's, multiple video game systems, multiple liquid cooled PC's that look like ricers, about 10 arcade sticks, an actual arcade of sorts, skateboards mounted on the walls, massive amounts of anime, hell I've got a street fighter snuggie There is so much there for people to mock and make fun of, and they do! I've got warhammer as well.
But seriously, have at! I'm not ashamed of it, hell I love all that junk, that's why I bought it all.
People who freak out over jokes on their subculture generally have some sort of other problem, or they are ashamed of it. And it's not my problem if you're over sensitive and ashamed of a hobby that you enjoy, nor should society have to tip toe around you.
Art with intent to offend can be a wonderful, thought-provoking exercise. Similarly, talking about something in order to explore hurt is a great way to kill that hurt.
Neither applies in this situation. A flippant public joke about rape is almost guaranteed to hurt someone -- someone who has done nothing other than be the victim of sexual violence.
Offending religious fundamentalists? Fine, be provocative. Offending rape victims by making lolz about their trauma then getting pissy about it? Are you even fucking human?
This is a good post.
Not that I agree with the subject matter but it really shows how this can take effect.
Now, don't think I'm mocking you or anything, I'm serious and just want answers.
What gave you this impression? Why do you think that the joke is 'flippant'? Why do you think it is 'making lolz about their trauma'? Why does this not apply to religious fundamentalists?
It's flippant because it's made casually. It inserts rape into a joke that isn't about rape or requires a rape joke. It could be anything, but it's rape, meaning that it was included as a conscious decision. To be fair, it is a funny line, and honestly it's funny because it's pretty horrifying -- but rape is a horror that's pretty close to a dismayingly large number of people.
Similarly, a Mohammed joke is going to offend a large number of people, but it offends them because of an ideological belief, and maybe that deserves to be made light of. A rape joke offends someone because they've experienced an almost unthinkably brutal trauma, and maybe that isn't the kind of thing you should feel too good about using to make lolz.
I mean, nobody's going to stop anyone from making jokes like this, and if the authors want to get defensive about it that's their right, but it does push the social contract a bit. We live together in a big ol' community and picking this hill to fight on -- not even necessarily to die on, but just to fight over -- makes that community just a little more hostile and just a little more slow to trust. It makes all of our dialogues just a little more difficult.
I would argue that the remark is not made casually though, it's made in a humour comic, yes but not casually as the victim (the slave) is clearly traumatized by it.
Not to ignore the rest of your post (I read it, I swear) but is it safe to say that when the comic was made you didn't really care? It was a nice, brief laugh then forget about it sort of thing? I just say this because this seems to be the general consensus so far.
o no one was offended by the beaten awake part of the strip? Was that really necessary? Or the slavery part of the joke? Was that really necessary? I mean they could have made it about picking flowers, why didn't they, how DARE they.
But nobody in PA's audience has experienced being in slavery. That part of the joke would not evoke a traumatic memory.
So if anything I say causes "mental trauma" to someone I should apologize for it? No one should be forced to make reparations of any kind for free speech or artistic expressions unless they were specifically meant to cause or incite harm. Demands for apologies at accidentally or purposefully offending someone is one step from demanding self censorship. This isn't a slippery slope argument, as most people who are offended at such things ask for self censorship as part of whatever they claim is owed to them.
Void Slayer on
He's a shy overambitious dog-catcher on the wrong side of the law. She's an orphaned psychic mercenary with the power to bend men's minds. They fight crime!
Not that I agree with the subject matter but it really shows how this can take effect.
Now, don't think I'm mocking you or anything, I'm serious and just want answers.
What gave you this impression? Why do you think that the joke is 'flippant'? Why do you think it is 'making lolz about their trauma'? Why does this not apply to religious fundamentalists?
Sipex, you're thinking like I am, which makes me glad that I'm not crazy (or at least that i'm not crazy and alone in my delusions. Highlighting that every action or value is a choice.
People need to look at things from a third person perspective. Which I guess is sort of "enlightenment". Like if you see a person get called an offensive word, most people don't get personally offended by it. But if you get called an offensive word, you DO get offended by it. What's the difference? Because it's you? So what? If you look at yourself as a third person, you tend to let a lot more stuff roll off your back.
How you view a third person insult:
"That person called Bob an offensive word. How will he react?"
How most people view a first person insult:
"That person called me an offensive word." REACTION
How you should view a first person insult:
"That person called me an offensive word. How will I react?"
Notice how the third person insult and how you should view your own insults are identical, only swapping out Bob with you.
Instead of being insulted and immediately having an emotional response to it, you shouldcan stop and decide what sort of emotional response you actually want to have. You really do get to choose, I promise. :P
Exactly. And while it's certainly not an easy choice (in fact, I would say that western culture sometimes actively teaches that it's impossible) it is a CHOICE. (Also, how do i change the font to "Strikethrough"?)
Why do I have to temper my reaction for the sake of the person who offended me? They don't owe me any consideration but suddenly all my reactions have to be done through some sort of Buddha prism?
I don't think he's saying that you are obligated to temper your reactions for anyone--it's just an acknowledgement that you can choose how you respond. I feel like most people skip that part, and consider their "REACTION" to be necessary and uncontrollable.
i guess i'm basically saying that i do not accept the sincerity of the stated viewpoint that "no sacred cows it's just a joke it's stupid to get offended about anything"
I hope I'm not coming across as saying "it's stupid to be offended"--I just am trying to put together the idea that all our actions are a choice, and being offended is response that we can choose or not choose.
An interesting aside, but I don't know that this is helpful here.
Although I would be interested in seeing if certain posters in this thread have things that make them upset if you joke about it....
I don't know if you're talking at me, but of course there's things that make me upset. I lose my temper, yell, etc. But I'm saying that I have a choice whether or not to respond that way.
I'm not saying they shouldn't joke about whatever they want, but a byproduct of that is they are GOING to offend someone. And believe me, every zen master in here telling people they just need to harness their emotions has at least one thing in this universe that will offend them.
This is where I'm trying to flesh out this idea. I'm saying that even when I fly off the handle (and I do) I do so not because I was compelled to do so by the situation or by the words said to me, or by my upbringing and background, or culture, or whatever, but because I chose to react that way. It was a choice.
To be fair, the phrase "raped to sleep by the dickwolves" is incredibly funny. It may offend a few people. But I bet it brought joy to many more people.
And I sincerely doubt that every person that has been raped is going to find this line traumatic.
I also thought it was funny. And I don't think every rape victim will be traumatized, or even most. Just a not-insignificant number.
My point being that the people who enjoyed this joke outweigh those it made uncomfortable.
Besides, I don't really think that the comic is "making light of" rape. It's using rape as a known awful act for contrast and to construct a ridiculous situation.
RandomEngy on
Profile -> Signature Settings -> Hide signatures always. Then you don't have to read this worthless text anymore.
An interesting aside, but I don't know that this is helpful here.
Although I would be interested in seeing if certain posters in this thread have things that make them upset if you joke about it....
I don't know if you're talking at me, but of course there's things that make me upset. I lose my temper, yell, etc. But I'm saying that I have a choice whether or not to respond that way.
I'm not saying they shouldn't joke about whatever they want, but a byproduct of that is they are GOING to offend someone. And believe me, every zen master in here telling people they just need to harness their emotions has at least one thing in this universe that will offend them.
This is where I'm trying to flesh out this idea. I'm saying that even when I fly off the handle (and I do) I do so not because I was compelled to do so by the situation or by the words said to me, or by my upbringing and background, or culture, or whatever, but because I chose to react that way. It was a choice.
While I certainly agree that we should have a measure of personal responsibility, and should not excuse actions taken in a fit of extreme emotion, I stand by my point that this is a two way street, and there are certainly people who are either intentionally or unintentionally being offensive, and there are times when they must accept responsibility for those actions or words.
People tend to only get upset about things if they have a real chip on their shoulder about it, those people are flawed.
In the case of anime, fuck I watch a lot of anime, good stuff, bad stuff, who cares. I also play a lot of video games. My apartment is full of anime/gaming posters, TV's, multiple video game systems, multiple liquid cooled PC's that look like ricers, about 10 arcade sticks, an actual arcade of sorts, skateboards mounted on the walls, massive amounts of anime, hell I've got a street fighter snuggie There is so much there for people to mock and make fun of, and they do! I've got warhammer as well.
But seriously, have at! I'm not ashamed of it, hell I love all that junk, that's why I bought it all.
People who freak out over jokes on their subculture generally have some sort of other problem, or they are ashamed of it. And it's not my problem if you're over sensitive and ashamed of a hobby that you enjoy, nor should society have to tip toe around you.
Sorry, but your love of anime and gaming is not really comparable to, you know, getting raped.
It would be stupid for you to have a chip on your shoulder about the lack of respect of your hobbies. On the other hand, people can damn well have a chip on their shoulder about getting raped.
The problem with rape jokes is not so much that they remind victims of their trauma.
The issue is more that making light of serious problems is a great way to trivialize them.
We live in a society where rape is a very common and serious problem. There is a common attitude that it's actually not a problem, that it's rare, that it occurs because of crazed individuals and not ingrained social problems. Making jokes about rape is like making racist jokes, in that they trivialize and normalize a real
problem.
This attitude basically means that people should only make jokes about trivial things. So, no jokes about war, racism, societal injustice, rape, gangs, pedophilia, government corruption or anything that is serious business.
no
it says that it's reasonable and understandable that someone might get offended at a joke that trivializes something they feel strongly about
No I would argue that it is NOT reasonable to be offended by this joke, I would argue that the term "reasonable" in the context used in this thread should hold the same definition as the "Reasonable prudent person" standard under the american legal system. The standard of a reasonable prudent person is what would an average person, with average skills, knowledge, and beliefs would react in a given situation."
I would argue that applying average morales, knowledge and beliefs to this cartoon would not make it reasonable for someone to be offended by the use of the word "rape", in fact only a small minorty of persons who actually have viewed it have been offended, thus making it unreasonable under this legal standard.
Posts
No. But to be fair, I only know two people.
Because obviously people should have complete control over and take complete responsibility for their reactions but not put any thought into controlling or taking responsibility for their actions.
Notice I never said people don't have a right to be offended by this comic. Just that rape jokes are nothing new for Penny Arcade, in contrast to the point that Qingu was trying to make.
Probably a passing thought. They needed a way to make this a horrible horrible experience to emphasize the "LOL, MMO quests can make you out to be a horrid being sometimes!" joke. Rape fits the bill, rape is horrible.
I actually don't understand why this is taking so much heat, it's not like they made rape out to be the joke or to be funny, it's just to emphasize the actual joke.
Rigorous Scholarship
I recall one time when I was playing Quake II with a guy at a LAN. We were having a blast and then I killed him and he calls me a "bitch" I then jokingly proceed to say "yo mama's a bitch" and he flips out, throws off his headset, and gets in my face wanting to fight me. What I see there is lack of any control of his emotions. He expect me to not be offended when he calls me a bitch, but when I call his mom a bitch, in a joking manner, he flips out and gets offended. First off, why should he let me anger him over something I said?
Why would he get angry that someone called his mom a bitch? Is she really a bitch? If he doesn't think she's a bitch, why does it matter what I call her? I don't know his mother personally. I'm sure his mother is a nice lady. But it was a joke, and he flipped out over it... Because he felt the need to have a negative reaction when someone insulted his mother. When in fact, there was no need for any of it. He could have just shrugged and continued playing. Instead he had to make a point that I offended him.... to the point where he wanted to become violent... All because I said a string of words that he didn't like.
It's just silly to me. Don't get offended. It's really that simple.
Because it was a funny line. Sometimes, that's all the intent you'll find behind a joke.
It's because they used the word 'raped.' That's all it takes for some people to get offended, context be damned.
To emphasize the point, that this is a horrific situation and the disinterest by the PC in helping just because they finished the quest is even more egregious.
So no one was offended by the beaten awake part of the strip? Was that really necessary? Or the slavery part of the joke? Was that really necessary? I mean they could have made it about picking flowers, why didn't they, how DARE they.
are the same people who blow a fuckin fuse if anyone pokes fun of nerds or japanimation or whatever their particular subculture or interest or cause is.
People are generally allergic to any criticism of their behavior, of any kind.
You aren't tempering your reaction for the sake of the person who cracked the joke, you're tempering your reaction for your own sake.
Either the person made the joke without malicious intent in which case you're just freaking out and getting spun up over a non issue and need to grow up and get some thicker skin, or the joke was made with malicious intent in which case you're just giving them what they want and fueling the fire. Either way you lose.
And if it wasn't made maliciously and you're that thin skinned, you really shouldn't be interacting with any sort of comedic material because it's all satire and mockery.
Do you think George Carlin should have gone around apologizing to every person/group he mocked and offended?
An interesting aside, but I don't know that this is helpful here.
Although I would be interested in seeing if certain posters in this thread have things that make them upset if you joke about it....
i understand. it's mostly trying to be funny by putting rape in a conceptually absurd context.
like i said, it didn't offend me.
but if railing against the casual and inappropriate use of the term "rape" by the gaming community was my thing, then i would definitely have a problem with this comic
You're expecting anime fans to be offended by rape?
Oh, what lofty expectations you have.
But that's the thing, the comic isn't even making light of the topic. Sorry to be a Tim Buckley here but basically it goes.
Panel 1: Hey, that beast is a hero of sorts and that guy needs rescuing.
Panel 2: OMG, this guy's situation is horrible. Rape and beatings are horrible.
Panel 3: Oh wow, that hero is horrible. Oh, it's a quest, he can't take more slaves. They're trying to rationalise why this happens in mmos if the characters had to rationalise their actions.
Everyone likes to think they have thick skin.
i guess i'm basically saying that i do not accept the sincerity of the stated viewpoint that "no sacred cows it's just a joke it's stupid to get offended about anything"
The issue is more that making light of serious problems is a great way to trivialize them.
We live in a society where rape is a very common and serious problem. There is a common attitude that it's actually not a problem, that it's rare, that it occurs because of crazed individuals and not ingrained social problems. Making jokes about rape is like making racist jokes, in that they trivialize and normalize a real
problem.
It's flippant because it's made casually. It inserts rape into a joke that isn't about rape or requires a rape joke. It could be anything, but it's rape, meaning that it was included as a conscious decision. To be fair, it is a funny line, and honestly it's funny because it's pretty horrifying -- but rape is a horror that's pretty close to a dismayingly large number of people.
Similarly, a Mohammed joke is going to offend a large number of people, but it offends them because of an ideological belief, and maybe that deserves to be made light of. A rape joke offends someone because they've experienced an almost unthinkably brutal trauma, and maybe that isn't the kind of thing you should feel too good about using to make lolz.
I mean, nobody's going to stop anyone from making jokes like this, and if the authors want to get defensive about it that's their right, but it does push the social contract a bit. We live together in a big ol' community and picking this hill to fight on -- not even necessarily to die on, but just to fight over -- makes that community just a little more hostile and just a little more slow to trust. It makes all of our dialogues just a little more difficult.
I agree with that and with you for once.
For the record, I don't think there was anything wrong with the original PA strip that provoked the outcry. My comment below should not be interpreted as a specific criticism of PA.
However, a lot of people look at a comic like George Carlin or Lenny Bruce, see the "shock the bourgeoisie" element to their act, and then run with that as a blanket endorsement of being an asshole. But shocking conventional sensibilities means something very different than, say, picking on an oppressed minority, or randomly calling someone a cunt.
It doesn't bother me. However, I can see how it would bother a rape victim. The claim that such a person needs to "try" to get bothered by it is sort of infuriating.
Who has stated that viewpoint?
No, but then I don't think he went around being suprised and then angered by the fact that he offended people.
That's what's crazy to me here... they made a joke about rape, however tangentially related, and then act surprised that some people get offended by that.
I'm not saying they shouldn't joke about whatever they want, but a byproduct of that is they are GOING to offend someone. And believe me, every zen master in here telling people they just need to harness their emotions has at least one thing in this universe that will offend them.
Rigorous Scholarship
no
it says that it's reasonable and understandable that someone might get offended at a joke that trivializes something they feel strongly about
People tend to only get upset about things if they have a real chip on their shoulder about it, those people are flawed.
In the case of anime, fuck I watch a lot of anime, good stuff, bad stuff, who cares. I also play a lot of video games. My apartment is full of anime/gaming posters, TV's, multiple video game systems, multiple liquid cooled PC's that look like ricers, about 10 arcade sticks, an actual arcade of sorts, skateboards mounted on the walls, massive amounts of anime, hell I've got a street fighter snuggie
But seriously, have at! I'm not ashamed of it, hell I love all that junk, that's why I bought it all.
People who freak out over jokes on their subculture generally have some sort of other problem, or they are ashamed of it. And it's not my problem if you're over sensitive and ashamed of a hobby that you enjoy, nor should society have to tip toe around you.
I would argue that the remark is not made casually though, it's made in a humour comic, yes but not casually as the victim (the slave) is clearly traumatized by it.
Not to ignore the rest of your post (I read it, I swear) but is it safe to say that when the comic was made you didn't really care? It was a nice, brief laugh then forget about it sort of thing? I just say this because this seems to be the general consensus so far.
So if anything I say causes "mental trauma" to someone I should apologize for it? No one should be forced to make reparations of any kind for free speech or artistic expressions unless they were specifically meant to cause or incite harm. Demands for apologies at accidentally or purposefully offending someone is one step from demanding self censorship. This isn't a slippery slope argument, as most people who are offended at such things ask for self censorship as part of whatever they claim is owed to them.
Sipex, you're thinking like I am, which makes me glad that I'm not crazy (or at least that i'm not crazy and alone in my delusions. Highlighting that every action or value is a choice.
Exactly. And while it's certainly not an easy choice (in fact, I would say that western culture sometimes actively teaches that it's impossible) it is a CHOICE. (Also, how do i change the font to "Strikethrough"?)
I don't think he's saying that you are obligated to temper your reactions for anyone--it's just an acknowledgement that you can choose how you respond. I feel like most people skip that part, and consider their "REACTION" to be necessary and uncontrollable.
I hope I'm not coming across as saying "it's stupid to be offended"--I just am trying to put together the idea that all our actions are a choice, and being offended is response that we can choose or not choose.
I don't know if you're talking at me, but of course there's things that make me upset. I lose my temper, yell, etc. But I'm saying that I have a choice whether or not to respond that way.
This is where I'm trying to flesh out this idea. I'm saying that even when I fly off the handle (and I do) I do so not because I was compelled to do so by the situation or by the words said to me, or by my upbringing and background, or culture, or whatever, but because I chose to react that way. It was a choice.
My point being that the people who enjoyed this joke outweigh those it made uncomfortable.
Besides, I don't really think that the comic is "making light of" rape. It's using rape as a known awful act for contrast and to construct a ridiculous situation.
No, it was a general statement.
While I certainly agree that we should have a measure of personal responsibility, and should not excuse actions taken in a fit of extreme emotion, I stand by my point that this is a two way street, and there are certainly people who are either intentionally or unintentionally being offensive, and there are times when they must accept responsibility for those actions or words.
It would be stupid for you to have a chip on your shoulder about the lack of respect of your hobbies. On the other hand, people can damn well have a chip on their shoulder about getting raped.
No I would argue that it is NOT reasonable to be offended by this joke, I would argue that the term "reasonable" in the context used in this thread should hold the same definition as the "Reasonable prudent person" standard under the american legal system. The standard of a reasonable prudent person is what would an average person, with average skills, knowledge, and beliefs would react in a given situation."
I would argue that applying average morales, knowledge and beliefs to this cartoon would not make it reasonable for someone to be offended by the use of the word "rape", in fact only a small minorty of persons who actually have viewed it have been offended, thus making it unreasonable under this legal standard.