Recommend me a camera

Reznik

My friends and I will be embarking on a short film project and I need a good camera. I don't know a whole lot about cameras so I turn to the wisdom of PA. I want something that can shoot HD, is fairly small and easy to handle, and (optionally) can shoot at 120 fps or more so I can do slow-mo.

The problem is I don't have a whole lot of money coming in right now, so I would feel bad about paying more than $1000 (I also need to upgrade my computer soon...). I mean, I know I'm probably going to have to pay more than $1000... so let's shoot for under that and put the absolute maximum at $1500.

Jinn

Canon T2i

Sarksus

Something you need to watch out for when using DSLR's for film is that the framerate won't be amazing. The most expensive consumer-level Canon (the t2i) will shoot 1080p at up to 30fps and 720p at up to 60fps which is perfect for regular shooting but nowhere near the 120fps you are interested in. But I don't even think a camcorder will get you 120fps for $1000 so that point might be moot anyway.

The other (bigger) problem with DSLRs is the focusing. The auto-focus is usually pretty crap. I have a T2i and it's very cumbersome to get it to auto-focus. I've only been playing around with it for a little while but in order to focus the picture again while recording I have to half-press the shutter, it won't do it automatically. When it does auto-focus it's very slow and it hunts back and forth to find what it thinks is "in-focus". Basically the camera is meant to be focused manually while shooting video. In an interview setting this isn't a problem at all, focus it once before recording and you're fine, but if you're moving the camera a lot and the actors are moving then it becomes very difficult. A follow-focus rig would make it easier but this can be expensive and this leads us to the last problem with using a DSLR (specifically the T2i) as a video camera:

The microphone picks up everything that happens inside of the camera. From you handling it to the very loud focusing of the lens the microphone picks everything up. An external mic is mandatory.

The T2i will shoot very high quality video. The light sensor is similar to the 7D, it's a wonderful value, but the focusing and audio limitations are something you need to work around. You will probably be better served by a video camcorder.

Antithesis

If you do go for a video camcorder, this one is good enough that people have made and maintain an entirely unofficial forum dedicated to it. The Canon HV20, and its two successors (which are just about identical), the HV30 and HV40. There's loads of amateur/indie filmmaking knowledge there if you look, by the way.

You might be able to snag one for less than $300, in which case you'd have plenty of money within your budget to buy an external shotgun microphone (without which you really won't have very good audio quality) and a few other accessories. (You'll find lists of those through the link.

I'm just going to go ahead and blitz through every question that I had to hunt down answers for:

To save you time, the HV20 can record at 24 progressive frames per second and 60 interlaced frames per second. I don't know how much slow-mo you'd be able to do with that, but some work in After Effects might help push it. It does take some time to get what it claims is 24 frames per second to actually be 24 frames per second. Look up "pulldown removal" if you're interested. It can also output at 1920x1080 resolution (with very good video quality all around), but to get that you need an HDMI capture card such as a BlackMagic Intensity and a powered computer for it to output to. That's another $200 and these expenses may slowly push you into the price range of a camera that's just naturally better. If you're just using the default miniDV tapes or recording to a miniSD card, it'll compress the video signal to 1440x1080 while recording and stretch it back up when you capture it. All that I'll say is that it still looks good for that price.

The HV30 can also record at 30 frames per second, and has some cool firmware hacks available. The HV40 can't be firmware hacked to do cool things, but also lets you record at 24 frames per second without having to cut it down to that in post-production. There are a few other distinctions that I'm forgetting. The 20 is silver, and the 30 and 40 are black, if that means anything to you.

There is a small group of people crafting 35mm adapters to go with 50mm lenses, specifically for these three cameras. They look like long lense thingies. What they do is give the camera a very low depth of field, so that you can focus on say, one particular actor and have everything surrounding them be blurry. If you have any shots where you want to do that, you can! Though again, these things push the price up to something that might be able to accomplish these tricks on its own. I never checked- I got lucky and caught someone selling their entire kit of this stuff, a tripod, and a few other things for around $750. I consider myself to have gotten a good deal. Still, though, you start off with a camcorder, add lens and a shotgun microphone, maybe a $14 homemade steadicam, and boom, you're suddenly Robert Rodriguez.

But perhaps I've said too much.

Dark Moon

Is this $1500 budget for just the body or are you including lenses and shooting accessories (tripod, head, all those whacky DSLR video gadgets video people seem to like on their DSLRs) in with it? One will lead to very different recommendations over the other.

tsmvengy

1. He needs a video camera/camcorder. Why are you guys recommending DSLRs?

2. What is this film project for? Is it something for a class, or what?

3. Antithesis has good advice.

Jinn

Because the T2i fits his price range, is small and easy to handle, can shoot HD, and shooting 60p is enough to do some solid slow mo. The audio issue would be the main hurdle, but you can get a hand held mic that will be loads better than the in-camera mic for about $300, so even with that we're still within the price range.

Its not perfect, but its the best HD video you will shoot for less than $1500, I assure you.

Reznik

Thanks for all of your advice.

@Jinn: I will check out the T2i. There is a sale on them at Future Shop. But it ends tomorrow...

@Antithesis: The HV20/30/40 sounds excellent and I will see what I can find in my area.

@Dark Moon: Unfortunately the $1500 has to cover everything. However due to the nature of this project we can go without a lot of gadgets.

@tsmvengy: This project is just me and my friends getting together to see how good we can make something with our limited funds and budget. Since I am trying to teach myself to do a lot of post work in After Effects I need some footage to work with so we are doing something about superheroes as an excuse for me to try a lot of different effects.

So I'm not expecting to shoot any absolutely spectacular footage. I just need 'solid' footage that's clear that I can play with in AE. If this all works out and we can convince people to give us money then I will start looking at all sorts of accessories to get a better picture.

Reznik

I went on eBay and found a used HV40 for $636 and comes with the following:

Canon Vixia HV40 HDV High Definition Camcorder
Canon Battery Pack
AC Cable
AC Adapter
Pro Hard Case with Foam and Keys

How does that sound? I can't seem to find one in a store anywhere in my area. Have they been discontinued or is my town just stupid?

I checked out the T2i at Future Shop. It's a nice camera and I think if I can't get this one on eBay I'll pick it up.

Antithesis

That's basically everything that the camera comes with when you get it new. As far as I know, the 20 and possibly the 30 are discontinued, though the 40 is still made. It's hit and miss as to where you can get it new.

Everything always tends to seem too expensive to me, but that is decently below the retail value of the camera and probably worth it for the 40 if it's in good condition. You could get a better deal buying from someone selling their entire kit on a forum, but to be honest, that was a major headache for me despite the savings I got out of it, and it's easy to get much more than you need. eBay makes life easier.

If you end up getting that, here are some discounts on a fair-quality microphone. Even if you don't go for that one in particular, I do recommend you get an[/] external microphone. Get something that costs at least $80 new. It's one of those things that makes whatever you make noticeably better with little effort. To decide between a mono and a stereo microphone, I/You'll need to know whether or not you plan on keeping the mic mounted on top of the camera or extended on a boom during recording. And whether or not you're planning on recording the dialogue and sound effects separately. That is how large productions do it, and it is how you'll probably do it if you're also interested in getting experience doing sound/mixing work in Audition or Soundbooth (or something similar), but it might also be something you want to skip out on. I don't know, I need to sleep and this paragraph is not as structurally sound as I'd like it to be. Run with me on this.

Reznik

I went to a Canon retailer today and when the guy phoned the Canon rep to see about the HV40, he said it was discontinued and they couldn't order it in for me. So it looks like I'm going the eBay route.

As far as mics go, I know a guy with a boom pole/mic I could borrow, and probably some other mics, so I'll hold off on buying those until the borrowed ones become unavailable.

Thanks a ton for the advice. I'll probably have more questions when the camera arrives.

Reznik

Okay! I got my HV40. It is really nice. Now I want more things for it.

I need some opinions on these auctions for accessories:

http://cgi.ebay.com/Canon-HV40-VIXIA-HV-40-18-PIECE-PRO-Accessory-KIT-/200452513550?pt=Camcorders_Professional_Video_Cameras&hash=item2eabe69f0e

http://cgi.ebay.com/10-PC-Accessory-Kit-Canon-HV40-HV30-HV20-/360173006574?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item53dbfbeeee

Djeet

A word on tele/wide lens attachments, a lot of them impinge on the zoom range. Meaning while it's threaded onto the barrel, as you're zooming in at some point the attachment prevents you from zooming in all the way on the long end. They can also introduce artifacts such as vignetting (light falloff in the corners) and additional cromatic abberation to varying degrees.

Not sure how you can tell if this is the case with these attachments without trying them out physically at a store.

Reznik

Hmm.

Well, there's nowhere in town I can get any of this gear (seriously my town suuuucks) so it looks like I'll have to take a gamble on eBay.

So are those kits considered good deals? Should I look elsewhere on the net for HV40 gear?