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No (Solicitation) Means No. Obey the sign or pay the fine?

joshofalltradesjoshofalltrades Class TraitorSmoke-filled roomRegistered User regular
edited August 2010 in Debate and/or Discourse
From the Proselytizing thread:
Nucker wrote: »
From the missionaries I talked with, if they saw "NO SOLICITORS" sign they didn't knock at that door and moved on.

Well, when I was working for a marketing company for a short period of time, I was instructed to ignore those signs by my superiors. Many times I was forced to knock on a door with a clear "NO SOLICITORS" sign if I wanted to keep my job. Did it work sometimes? Yes, actually. I still felt like a tool for doing it.

While the other thread is about if it's okay to band together as a community to oust annoyances like the OP's video shows, this one is regarding whether or not we should actually make going against those signs unlawful.

My gut instinct here is to say yes. The person who posted that sign clearly does not wish to be disturbed by marketers, salesmen or zealots. As of now there is no point in posting those signs; even when we had them on my old house, we were still accosted. Many times, when I pointed the sign out and started to shut the door, I was typically made to feel like I was the dickcheese for not listening to their spiel.

But if there were some fucking consequences for ignoring a posted sign, salesmonsters might actually take note of them and follow the wishes of the property owner. I'm still thinking about logistics, how to enforce and what the fines would look like, but right now I'd support a measure like this.

Tell me what you think about this idea.

joshofalltrades on
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Posts

  • HappylilElfHappylilElf Registered User regular
    edited August 2010
    Works for me.

    HappylilElf on
  • CommunistCowCommunistCow Abstract Metal ThingyRegistered User regular
    edited August 2010
    I've volunteered for political campaigns and we ignore such signs. I was told that these are directed at salesmen and thus groups who are not looking for money can ignore them.

    CommunistCow on
    No, I am not really communist. Yes, it is weird that I use this name.
  • ToxTox I kill threads they/themRegistered User regular
    edited August 2010
    How do you even begin to enforce such a measure? It's like the no-call list. Now they just call from a random or unavailable number, and when you ask to be put on the no-call list, they just hang up on you. It doesn't do anything. Just keep a fake rifle or shot gun by the front door, and when you see it's someone you don't know, have the duck at the ready, when they go into their routine, pull the gun and simply say, "I guess you can't read, can you see?" And watch them run.

    Or open the door and as soon as they start to talk, close the door.

    Tox on
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  • emnmnmeemnmnme Registered User regular
    edited August 2010
    I've volunteered for political campaigns and we ignore such signs. I was told that these are directed at salesmen and thus groups who are not looking for money can ignore them.

    Were you soliciting signatures?

    emnmnme on
  • joshofalltradesjoshofalltrades Class Traitor Smoke-filled roomRegistered User regular
    edited August 2010
    Well, you could have neighborhood associations or apartment complexes post a sign at the entrance and if a cop sees them walking around with sales materials, fine them.

    joshofalltrades on
  • CommunistCowCommunistCow Abstract Metal ThingyRegistered User regular
    edited August 2010
    emnmnme wrote: »
    I've volunteered for political campaigns and we ignore such signs. I was told that these are directed at salesmen and thus groups who are not looking for money can ignore them.

    Were you soliciting signatures?

    Nope, just asking people who they were voting for, reminding them of election dates, or helping them register to vote.

    CommunistCow on
    No, I am not really communist. Yes, it is weird that I use this name.
  • HappylilElfHappylilElf Registered User regular
    edited August 2010
    Camera over your front door?

    HappylilElf on
  • joshofalltradesjoshofalltrades Class Traitor Smoke-filled roomRegistered User regular
    edited August 2010
    Tox wrote: »
    Just keep a fake rifle or shot gun by the front door, and when you see it's someone you don't know, have the duck at the ready, when they go into their routine, pull the gun and simply say, "I guess you can't read, can you see?" And watch them run.

    Or open the door and as soon as they start to talk, close the door.

    I don't keep a gun in my house and I don't want to be interrupted for a sales pitch, period. Even for 2 seconds of my life. That's why I posted a sign.

    You know, you could just get the license plate number of the person if they're driving a car, or call the cops if they are on foot and won't be able to get far. The first dozen people who get fined for breaking a law like this would set a nice precedent and I imagine cops wouldn't need to be called for this sort of thing very often after they learn what happens.

    joshofalltrades on
  • ChillyWillyChillyWilly Registered User regular
    edited August 2010
    I would just institute personal fines at my house for something like this.

    A sign that says, "No Solicitors, unless you are willing to pay $1000 to have me listen to you".

    That way, I can just point to the sign. If they produce $1000, then I'll be happy to listen to them for a few minutes. If not, I'm shutting the door and GTFO.

    ChillyWilly on
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  • Eat it You Nasty Pig.Eat it You Nasty Pig. tell homeland security 'we are the bomb'Registered User regular
    edited August 2010
    It's worth noting that proselytizers, political canvassers and other activists don't really fall into the traditional definition of solicitation.

    Anyway, I have a hard time caring about this. If it's really such a bother for you, maybe you should craft a sign that more explicitly details your wishes. Or just get a no trespassing/beware of dog sign. That will be much more effective at keeping people off your doorstep.

    Or you could do what I do: if you don't feel like talking to the person, don't answer the door.

    Eat it You Nasty Pig. on
    hold your head high soldier, it ain't over yet
    that's why we call it the struggle, you're supposed to sweat
  • SageinaRageSageinaRage Registered User regular
    edited August 2010
    On a somewhat related note to this, I once prevented a guy from following me into my apartment complex, waited til the gate closed behind me, and then had him try to argue with me later when I was walking back to my apt, and he had apparently gotten in anyway. I really couldn't fathom the frame of mind that would compel him to do that, when he made no effort to try to call someone on the callbox. Apparently driving a taxi is like driving a police car.

    But yes, things like this are why you have to learn to only give common courtesy to those who give it back. When someone sells me something on the phone or at the door, I say, 'I don't buy things over the phone or from the door', and that's that.

    SageinaRage on
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  • joshofalltradesjoshofalltrades Class Traitor Smoke-filled roomRegistered User regular
    edited August 2010
    Or (and I'm not being serious) how about allowing me to legally punch people in the face who ignore the sign?

    joshofalltrades on
  • Eat it You Nasty Pig.Eat it You Nasty Pig. tell homeland security 'we are the bomb'Registered User regular
    edited August 2010
    it sounds like you have some anger issues

    Eat it You Nasty Pig. on
    hold your head high soldier, it ain't over yet
    that's why we call it the struggle, you're supposed to sweat
  • ChillyWillyChillyWilly Registered User regular
    edited August 2010
    Or (and I'm not being serious) how about allowing me to legally punch people in the face who ignore the sign?

    Who says you can't? They're on your property, aren't they? :P

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  • joshofalltradesjoshofalltrades Class Traitor Smoke-filled roomRegistered User regular
    edited August 2010
    I was clearly joking

    But yes, people who see a sign that explicitly states I don't wish to be bothered and then decide that my wishes don't matter and they are going to bother me regardless make me angry

    joshofalltrades on
  • ToxTox I kill threads they/themRegistered User regular
    edited August 2010
    I was clearly joking

    he must not have noticed the sign.

    Tox on
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  • YamiNoSenshiYamiNoSenshi A point called Z In the complex planeRegistered User regular
    edited August 2010
    Camera over your front door?

    My step-dad did this so he could see who was at the door from his office without getting up. He was self-employed, so it was important to distinguish between a client come to pick up some work and somebody who would just waste his time. I thought it was the neatest thing when I was a kid.

    We somehow had a guy from Comcast get into our building and was knocking on all the doors. He knocks on mine, I open it and see the Xfinity badge, and say "Not interested" and shut the door before he even got a word out. He looked a bit affronted for a second as I closed. But considering we had and then canceled Comcast internet, he was about the last person I wanted soliciting me.

    YamiNoSenshi on
  • ImprovoloneImprovolone Registered User regular
    edited August 2010
    If it is that bothersome to have people knock on your door, put up a fence. Would we also fine kids selling wrapping paper door to door for a fundraiser?

    Improvolone on
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  • Eat it You Nasty Pig.Eat it You Nasty Pig. tell homeland security 'we are the bomb'Registered User regular
    edited August 2010
    Look, the problem is that people have this "No Soliciting" sign, and interpret that internally as "I don't want to be bothered," when that isn't what no soliciting means.

    Soliciting means asking a person for something of value for the benefit of the solicitor. That is not what these missionary kids are doing. Whether you like them or want to talk to them or not, they are taking time out of their day to selflessly do something they really think is important.

    I have plenty of experience with this, and people cover the whole range. Some get a knock and will just point to their no soliciting sign and scream, and some are more than happy to chat as soon as they realize they aren't hearing a pitch for some encyclopedias. If what you really want is not to be disturbed, I suggest you get a sign that actually says "Please Do Not Disturb," or other such language.

    Eat it You Nasty Pig. on
    hold your head high soldier, it ain't over yet
    that's why we call it the struggle, you're supposed to sweat
  • joshofalltradesjoshofalltrades Class Traitor Smoke-filled roomRegistered User regular
    edited August 2010
    If what you really want is not to be disturbed, I suggest you get a sign that actually says "Please Do Not Disturb," or other such language.

    I was told to solicit to addresses with "no solicitors" signs on a daily basis. Language isn't the issue. The only consequence to harassing people right now is maybe some yelling and "can't you read". Nothing would change if the wording was changed to, "Do Not Disturb" because there'd still be no consequences.

    joshofalltrades on
  • Eat it You Nasty Pig.Eat it You Nasty Pig. tell homeland security 'we are the bomb'Registered User regular
    edited August 2010
    I don't know what sales company you worked for and I've never worked in door to door sales, so I can't really speak to that, but a DND sign will be more effective than a no soliciting sign at generally keeping people off your door.

    Hell, get a sign that says you work third shift or something.

    Eat it You Nasty Pig. on
    hold your head high soldier, it ain't over yet
    that's why we call it the struggle, you're supposed to sweat
  • BubbaTBubbaT Registered User regular
    edited August 2010
    I was clearly joking

    But yes, people who see a sign that explicitly states I don't wish to be bothered and then decide that my wishes don't matter and they are going to bother me regardless make me angry

    Sounds like a good time to decide you want to hose down your doorstep.

    Alternatively, get some dogs. Or bees. Or dogs with bees in their mouths and when they bark they shoot bees at you.

    BubbaT on
  • japanjapan Registered User regular
    edited August 2010
    What really bugs me are those that ring the doorbell again when you shut the door in their face halfway through their opening sentence.

    japan on
  • joshofalltradesjoshofalltrades Class Traitor Smoke-filled roomRegistered User regular
    edited August 2010
    I don't know what sales company you worked for and I've never worked in door to door sales, so I can't really speak to that, but a DND sign will be more effective than a no soliciting sign at generally keeping people off your door.

    Hell, get a sign that says you work third shift or something.

    Sure, those are practical ways to lower the number of people who ignore my wishes. They aren't arguments against the OP, though, which begs the question at this point, "Is there a reason ignoring a No Solicitors sign isn't against the law?" I've heard from some in this thread to just deal with it when it happens, but that doesn't make an argument against fining these geese.

    joshofalltrades on
  • ImprovoloneImprovolone Registered User regular
    edited August 2010
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yp5RBvogZog&feature=search


    Oh, and its not against the law because putting up a sign doesn't a law make.

    Improvolone on
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  • joshofalltradesjoshofalltrades Class Traitor Smoke-filled roomRegistered User regular
    edited August 2010
    Well, that's why I'm suggesting we make a law.

    joshofalltrades on
  • SageinaRageSageinaRage Registered User regular
    edited August 2010
    You first need to define soliciting, exactly what it entails, how it'd be enforced, penalties, and whether it's really that big a deal in the first place.

    SageinaRage on
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  • Eat it You Nasty Pig.Eat it You Nasty Pig. tell homeland security 'we are the bomb'Registered User regular
    edited August 2010
    Why not just use the relevant trespassing laws? They exist, and are even enforced in these situations from time to time.

    Eat it You Nasty Pig. on
    hold your head high soldier, it ain't over yet
    that's why we call it the struggle, you're supposed to sweat
  • KakodaimonosKakodaimonos Code fondler Helping the 1% get richerRegistered User regular
    edited August 2010
    There are rules for solicitors and some jurisdictions have specific laws.

    For example,

    Solicitor's License
    Solicitor's License
    Solicitor’s licenses are required for canvassing door to door, tagging in the intersection and site sales. There is no charge for the license, but tagging in the intersection is only permitted for Not for Profit Organizations. Tagging requires a $1,000,000 comprehensive general liability insurance. Site sales require letter from owner of property granting permission.

    Not for Profit Organizations must submit written statement of recent date by the Attorney General of Illinois that the organization has complied with the provisions of “An Act to Regulate Solicitation and Collection of Funds for Charitable Purposes”, 225 ILCS 460/1 et seq., as now or hereafter amended, if the organization is subject to the statute. A statement by the Attorney General of exemption under 225 ILCS 460/5 is required for religious organizations.

    And I have seen people picked up for violating these requirements.

    Kakodaimonos on
  • joshofalltradesjoshofalltrades Class Traitor Smoke-filled roomRegistered User regular
    edited August 2010
    Why not just use the relevant trespassing laws? They exist, and are even enforced in these situations from time to time.

    Because trespassing laws, especially in Texas, allow for the harm of individuals. I don't want people to start shooting solicitors in the face, I just want them to be afraid of getting fined.

    joshofalltrades on
  • DarkewolfeDarkewolfe Registered User regular
    edited August 2010
    It is not the job of the government to keep you from being annoyed by other people in every instance.

    Darkewolfe on
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  • joshofalltradesjoshofalltrades Class Traitor Smoke-filled roomRegistered User regular
    edited August 2010
    Darkewolfe wrote: »
    It is not the job of the government to keep you from being annoyed by other people in every instance.

    Yet when there is a compelling interest in doing so, the government passes laws to do just this.
    Private nuisance is the interference with the right of specific people. Nuisance is one of the oldest causes of action known to the common law, with cases framed in nuisance going back almost to the beginning of recorded case law. Nuisance signifies that the "right of quiet enjoyment" is being disrupted to such a degree that a tort is being committed.

    joshofalltrades on
  • DarkewolfeDarkewolfe Registered User regular
    edited August 2010
    Darkewolfe wrote: »
    It is not the job of the government to keep you from being annoyed by other people in every instance.

    Yet when there is a compelling interest in doing so, the government passes laws to do just this.
    Private nuisance is the interference with the right of specific people. Nuisance is one of the oldest causes of action known to the common law, with cases framed in nuisance going back almost to the beginning of recorded case law. Nuisance signifies that the "right of quiet enjoyment" is being disrupted to such a degree that a tort is being committed.

    "To such a degree that a tort is being committed."

    The commitment to the marketplace of ideas and the concept that there is some degree to which people should be able to advertise both give ground to the idea that it is not an unreasonable level of nuisance for you to have someone knock on your door once a day/week.

    Darkewolfe on
    What is this I don't even.
  • Eat it You Nasty Pig.Eat it You Nasty Pig. tell homeland security 'we are the bomb'Registered User regular
    edited August 2010
    The important part being "to such a degree that a tort is being committed."

    Yeah, I doubt it.

    Anyway, there's still no reason you can't avail yourself of trespassing laws. Even in Texas one assumes that gunfire is not the only remedy available to a property owner.

    Eat it You Nasty Pig. on
    hold your head high soldier, it ain't over yet
    that's why we call it the struggle, you're supposed to sweat
  • r4dr3zr4dr3z Registered User regular
    edited August 2010
    I had a guy try to sell me something once, I told him I wasn't interested and closed the door. Unfortunately, for some reason my door doesn't have a peephole so there's no way to know who's there. He stood outside my doorstep for a good 5 minutes trying to call me out, swearing at me for not wanting to listen to him. What company do you work for that wants you to represent them that way? He probably didn't work for a company at all and was just a scam artist. Why would he think that being such a jerk would get me to open the door again?

    Anyway, my community in San Jose, CA has an ordinance that requires all door-to-door solicitors to have a permit. I put a sign up on my door saying no solicitors, that the police requires a permit, and that I call 911. No one has bothered me since. Why is it illegal? Not just because it's a nuisance, but there were instances of crime where people posed as salesmen would rob, rape, and/or murder the person answering the door.

    And missionaries are solicitors, too. What are they trying to get you to do? Join their cult? That helps them; they'll be trying to collect my money for the rest of my life. Give them money for a cause? How do I know that they're for real and that money is really going to someone who helps? If I wanted to give to charity, I would research it first and donate directly to an organization that I could trust to give the money to the people who need it. Agree to volunteer for something? I've never seen someone ask for that, but still the person at my door probably has less-than altruistic reasons for doing that.

    r4dr3z on
  • kaliyamakaliyama Left to find less-moderated fora Registered User regular
    edited August 2010
    Darkewolfe wrote: »
    Darkewolfe wrote: »
    It is not the job of the government to keep you from being annoyed by other people in every instance.

    Yet when there is a compelling interest in doing so, the government passes laws to do just this.
    Private nuisance is the interference with the right of specific people. Nuisance is one of the oldest causes of action known to the common law, with cases framed in nuisance going back almost to the beginning of recorded case law. Nuisance signifies that the "right of quiet enjoyment" is being disrupted to such a degree that a tort is being committed.

    "To such a degree that a tort is being committed."

    The commitment to the marketplace of ideas and the concept that there is some degree to which people should be able to advertise both give ground to the idea that it is not an unreasonable level of nuisance for you to have someone knock on your door once a day/week.

    Private nuisance torts includes things like 24/7 loud music, drilling, sanding, blasting, or equivalents.

    kaliyama on
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  • GungHoGungHo Registered User regular
    edited August 2010
    If it is that bothersome to have people knock on your door, put up a fence. Would we also fine kids selling wrapping paper door to door for a fundraiser?

    Fuckers gotta learn manners some time.

    GungHo on
  • DarkewolfeDarkewolfe Registered User regular
    edited August 2010
    GungHo wrote: »
    If it is that bothersome to have people knock on your door, put up a fence. Would we also fine kids selling wrapping paper door to door for a fundraiser?

    Fuckers gotta learn manners some time.

    Most people don't consider community support and charity solicitation to be rude, unless they disagree with the charity in question.

    Darkewolfe on
    What is this I don't even.
  • ScalfinScalfin __BANNED USERS regular
    edited August 2010
    Darkewolfe wrote: »
    Darkewolfe wrote: »
    It is not the job of the government to keep you from being annoyed by other people in every instance.

    Yet when there is a compelling interest in doing so, the government passes laws to do just this.
    Private nuisance is the interference with the right of specific people. Nuisance is one of the oldest causes of action known to the common law, with cases framed in nuisance going back almost to the beginning of recorded case law. Nuisance signifies that the "right of quiet enjoyment" is being disrupted to such a degree that a tort is being committed.

    "To such a degree that a tort is being committed."

    The commitment to the marketplace of ideas and the concept that there is some degree to which people should be able to advertise both give ground to the idea that it is not an unreasonable level of nuisance for you to have someone knock on your door once a day/week.

    Free speech always stops at a property line. That's why the "free marketplace" can't open a both on my front lawn.

    Scalfin on
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  • GungHoGungHo Registered User regular
    edited August 2010
    Darkewolfe wrote: »
    GungHo wrote: »
    If it is that bothersome to have people knock on your door, put up a fence. Would we also fine kids selling wrapping paper door to door for a fundraiser?

    Fuckers gotta learn manners some time.

    Most people don't consider community support and charity solicitation to be rude, unless they disagree with the charity in question.
    World's Finest Chocolate, my ass!

    GungHo on
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