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MMA X: Captain Guillotine: Fear the man who has practiced one choke 10,000 times

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  • sportzboytjwsportzboytjw squeeeeeezzeeee some more tax breaks outRegistered User regular
    edited October 2010
    Forumite wrote: »
    Shields is a pretty good wrestler too, actually. His takedowns leave something to be desired, but once he's got people on the ground he can do some pretty excellent stuff

    [edit] Also that recent video of him outwrestling Ben Askren, the olympian guy

    Nono, I mean, he is a solid wrestler, but he's one of the few guys we've seen that is a strong wrestler that also grapples (not just college/freestyle wrestling) extremely well. If he was "just" a great wrestler or grappler, he coulnd't have handled rubber-band man.

    sportzboytjw on
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  • CabezoneCabezone Registered User regular
    edited October 2010
    GSP will murder the current Shields. The one thing we know GSP can do is fight all 5 rounds.

    Cabezone on
  • BubbaTBubbaT Registered User regular
    edited October 2010
    I'm curious about this. Shields isn't so much a great wrestler as a great grappler. He beat Fitch in a grappling tourney, which seems to indicate he would be on a semi-even standing with GSP. I'm also fairly certain that Fitch would pillowhands Kampmann for 3 boring rounds with Kampmann landing 1-2 strikes and another 29-28, 30-27, 29-28-type decision for Fitch. Do you really want to see a guy who is not one of the three best @ his weight fighting GSP?

    Calling Fitch pillow-hands incorrectly implies that Fitch actually throws punches.

    Chael Sonnen = throws pillow-handed punches
    Fitch = just lays there

    BubbaT on
  • SparvySparvy Registered User regular
    edited October 2010
    B:L wrote: »
    Cabezone wrote: »
    So after rewatching it, and as much as it pains me to agree with B:L, the shot that dropped Brock for the final time was a solid blow to the back of the head. It wasn't just behind the ear, it was clearly a solid back of the head hit.

    I think Brock was gonna get his ass kicked anyway, but it was an illegal shot.
    Thank you, that's all I'm trying to point out. Brock would still be outclassed by Cain, but it wouldn't have been utter domination without those shots to the back of the head.

    After that last standing shot to the back of the head, notice that Cain gets on top and lands one more right to the back of the head, then two hammafists straight down to the back of the head, followed by Lesnar rolling over and then Cain landing one more left to the back of the head which bounces Lesnar's head forward.

    The first one I can agree on, unintentional but back of the head. The ones on the ground no way they were to the back, Cain was very careful at finding angles from the side. He even hit Brocks arms a number of times trying to strike from the side.

    Sparvy on
  • JustinSane07JustinSane07 __BANNED USERS regular
    edited October 2010
    I rewatched the fight too today and yeah, I'm with B:L on this one. Herb Dean did an awful job stopping Cain from punching Brock in the back of the head. And yes, while some of the shots to the back were because of Brock's attempts at dodging, it is against the rules whether or not it's an accident. Dean did a shitty job.

    JustinSane07 on
  • BubbaTBubbaT Registered User regular
    edited October 2010
    May 2009 - UFC Undisputed 2009 is released with Forrest Griffin on the cover.
    August 2009 - Forrest Griffin loses in the first round, to Anderson Silva.

    May 2010 - UFC Undisputed 2010 is released with Brock Lesnar on the cover.
    October 2010 - Brock Lesnar loses in the first round, to Cain Velasquez.


    john-madden1.jpg

    just sayin...

    BubbaT on
  • Goose!Goose! That's me, honey Show me the way home, honeyRegistered User regular
    edited October 2010
    BubbaT wrote: »
    May 2009 - UFC Undisputed 2009 is released with Forrest Griffin on the cover.
    August 2009 - Forrest Griffin loses in the first round, to Anderson Silva.

    May 2010 - UFC Undisputed 2010 is released with Brock Lesnar on the cover.
    October 2010 - Brock Lesnar loses in the first round, to Cain Velasquez.


    john-madden1.jpg

    just sayin...
    Seems more like coincidence. I don't know how big an upset Griffin losing to Silva was, though.

    Goose! on
  • ChillyWillyChillyWilly Registered User regular
    edited October 2010
    Apparently Shields dropped 20 pounds in one day before the Kampmann fight.

    Kind of explains his conditioning.

    ChillyWilly on
    PAFC Top 10 Finisher in Seasons 1 and 3. 2nd in Seasons 4 and 5. Final 4 in Season 6.
  • DangerbirdDangerbird Registered User regular
    edited October 2010
    Shield's conditioning was shit in that fight. If he shows up like that against GSP, hes going to get wrecked. At least GSP's fight IQ is alot higher than Kampmann's.

    The Cain vs Brock fight was awesome, but the highlight of the night for me was Diego Sanchez's epic slam. That just made me smile.

    Dangerbird on
  • BubbaTBubbaT Registered User regular
    edited October 2010
    Goose! wrote: »
    BubbaT wrote: »
    May 2009 - UFC Undisputed 2009 is released with Forrest Griffin on the cover.
    August 2009 - Forrest Griffin loses in the first round, to Anderson Silva.

    May 2010 - UFC Undisputed 2010 is released with Brock Lesnar on the cover.
    October 2010 - Brock Lesnar loses in the first round, to Cain Velasquez.


    john-madden1.jpg

    just sayin...
    Seems more like coincidence. I don't know how big an upset Griffin losing to Silva was, though.

    Curses always seem like coincidences in the beginning.

    BubbaT on
  • CanadianWolverineCanadianWolverine Registered User regular
    edited October 2010
    Holy crap, after reviewing the fight in high detail and slow-mo, B:L is correct at the very least about the one shot that comes after the slip and spinning/dancing. Brock's head snaps forward towards the mat as he drops and he is pretty much stunned and eating shots after that. The other shots B:L says are to the back of the head, I don't see it, those seem to clearly be hitting Brock around the ears, jaw, forehead, temple, and cheeks. Maybe it went unnoticed because it seemed to some like Brock was already rocked after his spin and the knee?

    Am I allowed to link videos that aren't youtube here so others can review if they so desire? Gifs are so blurry. 2:20-2:18 in the fight from the knee to the shot that I first mistook for a shot that landed on his jaw.

    CanadianWolverine on
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  • noobertnoobert Registered User
    edited October 2010
    It's pretty clear IMO, he takes a knee to the face, then a fist to the back of the head with around 2:16 left.

    noobert on
  • dlinfinitidlinfiniti Registered User regular
    edited October 2010
    what the hell is this?(45 s)
    i..i dont even know
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zjHtxPew5Os

    dlinfiniti on
    AAAAA!!! PLAAAYGUUU!!!!
  • ChillyWillyChillyWilly Registered User regular
    edited October 2010
    dlinfiniti wrote: »
    what the hell is this?(45 s)
    i..i dont even know
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zjHtxPew5Os

    Likely just old feelings from when Brock was in WWE.

    Rumor has it that 'Taker thought Brock got shot up the food chain too fast when he was there...caused some friction between the two of them. Apparently it's still there.

    ChillyWilly on
    PAFC Top 10 Finisher in Seasons 1 and 3. 2nd in Seasons 4 and 5. Final 4 in Season 6.
  • adytumadytum Registered User regular
    edited October 2010
    So..

    Good fights.

    But.

    I'm with B:L.

    That was a lot of purposeful punches to the back of the head, including a nasty one which sent Brock face down into the mat.

    Great night of fights though!

    adytum on
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  • adytumadytum Registered User regular
    edited October 2010
    Congrats to Spectrum as our PAFCR2 champion!

    adytum on
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  • doug_grammardoug_grammar Registered User
    edited October 2010
    B:L posted alot of evidence yesterday, and now I admit I got caught up in the sherdog fiesta and just didn't want to see Cain's victory tainted.

    I checked out the fight again and even though those hits were mostly because Lesnar has a flinching problem, it's still illegal to hit the back of the head.

    I don't think Cain's hands are pillows. They looked weak before but now the evidence makes it undeniable that he doesn't have pillow hands.

    I also believe that the fight would've still gone to Cain. Lesnar's just so gun shy. He's that inexperienced. Once Cain out wrestled Lesnar, it was a done deal.

    doug_grammar on
  • adytumadytum Registered User regular
    edited October 2010
    I'm late to the game and all, having just watched the fight tonight, and there's no question it was Cain's fight.

    But I'm sitting here rewinding the fight and watching it in slo-mo when necessary, and there were undeniably a lot of hard (and some intentional) back of the head shots.

    adytum on
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  • doug_grammardoug_grammar Registered User
    edited October 2010
    Herb Dean did a bad job. Cain was caught up in the moment, and Lesnar was just fetaling up so much. B:L had a good point there.

    doug_grammar on
  • adytumadytum Registered User regular
    edited October 2010
    The biggest shot was when Lesnar was still standing. It's the one that sent him faceplanting. It was intentional.

    Oh well. I think Cain will outclass Dos Santos.

    adytum on
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  • doug_grammardoug_grammar Registered User
    edited October 2010
    We haven't seen enough of JDS's ground game, and his recent performance versus Roy wasn't as dominating as expected.

    Cain's just getting better in levels every fight. His wrestling is now the best in the HW division. He has already won stamina wise. Now has got solid hands.

    JDS is basically screwed unless he manages to knock out Cain. Only having a puncher's chance doesn't really fair.

    doug_grammar on
  • dlinfinitidlinfiniti Registered User regular
    edited October 2010
    well i would hope big Nog will give him some JJ to go with his B to counter cain's wrestling

    dlinfiniti on
    AAAAA!!! PLAAAYGUUU!!!!
  • Stabbity StyleStabbity Style He/Him | Warning: Mothership Reporting Kennewick, WARegistered User regular
    edited October 2010
    I'm not disputing the hit to the back of the head, but shouldn't Brock said something about it after the fight?

    Stabbity Style on
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  • SpectrumSpectrum Archer of Inferno Chaldea Rec RoomRegistered User regular
    edited October 2010
    adytum wrote: »
    Congrats to Spectrum as our PAFCR2 champion!
    *ahem*

    I FINISH FIGHTS!

    :mrgreen:

    Spectrum on
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  • doug_grammardoug_grammar Registered User
    edited October 2010
    Congratulations, Spectrum. You're the best around.

    Now thank your sponsors, your team, and God.

    doug_grammar on
  • adytumadytum Registered User regular
    edited October 2010
    I'm not disputing the hit to the back of the head, but shouldn't Brock said something about it after the fight?

    What's the point? The ref's decision is final and all it's going to sound like is badmouthing the winner. The best bet if there is a legitimate problem is to lodge a complaint with the athletic commission.

    Or, focus on becoming a better fighter and avenging your loss!

    adytum on
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  • B:LB:L Registered User regular
    edited October 2010
    Thanks guys for taking the time to review the match. It wasn't meant to take anything away from Cain, but to just show what actually happened.
    dlinfiniti wrote: »
    what the hell is this?(45 s)
    i..i dont even know

    Likely just old feelings from when Brock was in WWE.

    Rumor has it that 'Taker thought Brock got shot up the food chain too fast when he was there...caused some friction between the two of them. Apparently it's still there.
    Brock had a Goldberg-like push as "The Next Big Thing" (now "Baddest Man on the Planet"). He was likely a bully as well back then, and of course once an NFL offer came by he gave an absolutely horrible performance for his last match and left. In a sense he betrayed pro-wrestling.

    Gotta love that terrible reporter's comment though. "You were one of the first guys to actually introduce MMA to pro wrestling."
    wre111.jpg

    B:L on
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  • Dread Pirate ArbuthnotDread Pirate Arbuthnot OMG WRIGGLY T O X O P L A S M O S I SRegistered User regular
    edited October 2010
    I was a little disappointed to see Brock Lesnar go down like a chump though. I keep having UFC fighters talked up to me and then they get rocked! First Anderson Silva and now Brock Lesnar :x

    Dread Pirate Arbuthnot on
  • CabezoneCabezone Registered User regular
    edited October 2010
    Brock was exposed last fight by Carwin, but Carwin couldn't finish the job. He just cannot handle the striking game.

    Cabezone on
  • dlinfinitidlinfiniti Registered User regular
    edited October 2010
    wait
    what?
    B:L, you don't like ariel helwani either? man, hes like the best thing to happen to MMA journalism

    dlinfiniti on
    AAAAA!!! PLAAAYGUUU!!!!
  • GogoKodoGogoKodo Registered User regular
    edited October 2010
    B:L wrote: »
    Thanks guys for taking the time to review the match. It wasn't meant to take anything away from Cain, but to just show what actually happened.
    dlinfiniti wrote: »
    what the hell is this?(45 s)
    i..i dont even know

    Likely just old feelings from when Brock was in WWE.

    Rumor has it that 'Taker thought Brock got shot up the food chain too fast when he was there...caused some friction between the two of them. Apparently it's still there.
    Brock had a Goldberg-like push as "The Next Big Thing" (now "Baddest Man on the Planet"). He was likely a bully as well back then, and of course once an NFL offer came by he gave an absolutely horrible performance for his last match and left. In a sense he betrayed pro-wrestling.

    Gotta love that terrible reporter's comment though. "You were one of the first guys to actually introduce MMA to pro wrestling."
    wre111.jpg

    I know nothing about The Undertaker bringing MMA to pro wrestling. But "one of the first" != "the first" so it could still be a valid statement.

    GogoKodo on
  • B:LB:L Registered User regular
    edited October 2010
    dlinfiniti wrote: »
    wait
    what?
    B:L, you don't like ariel helwani either? man, hes like the best thing to happen to MMA journalism
    I'm just pulling your leg.
    hellwani.jpg

    B:L on
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  • Raoulduke20Raoulduke20 Registered User
    edited October 2010
    Anyone else think that the Carwin fight might have shaken Brock up more than he let on? I was incredibly impressed by how Lesnar recovered and finished that fight, but rewatching 121 I can't help but feel Brock just knew going in that he was fucked on the feet and the nerves kept him from really applying a counter. Cain's a great wrestler but I think a composed Brock would have done a better job at landing take downs and executing some mat control. I don't even like Brock but I respect how quickly he's improving and didn't see the same focus this fight. I won't complain since I won a good bit off of Lesnar losing, but it certainly didn't go as I expected. Even without the big shot to the back of the head I think it was just a matter of time before he would have been caught.

    Raoulduke20 on
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  • Peter EbelPeter Ebel CopenhagenRegistered User regular
    edited October 2010
    I've watched the fight a few times in slo-mo to see what's what.

    From what I can gather, at about 2:55 on the fight clock and onwards, Cain delivers punches via ground and pound, several of which we can't see where lands but at least three of which land to the back of the head. Brock gets back up, throws a few crappy strikes that Cain doesn't care about, then he goes for a take down that doesn't land. After the failed take down, Brock can't regain his equilibrium and we get the ballerina roll. Cain then runs after him and swarms him with punches. One seems to land on the back of the head, but most are in the face. Then the big knee from Cain. Brock isn't down but turns his back and looks away. Right after, at 2:18 on the fight clock, Cain hits Brock with big hard right hand straight to the base of the skull and Brock goes down. Cain swarms with ground and pound straight to the face. Everything is unanswered. Brock flails incoherently. Cain does what ever he wants and gets the mount, delivers elbows, stands up and with out controlling Brock at all and goes to knee on belly to have more space to punch. Several punches and elbows. Cain stands up again but this time Brock uses the break stand up himself. Cain punches him once to about the cheek bone and then again to somewhere to the head. It's likely to the back of the head since Brock has turned away and looks down so the back of his head is exposed. Brock goes down again and into foetal position and rolls over and turtles up, while Cain swarms him with punches. As Brock turns he exposes the back of the head again, which Cain hits several times. Cain turns Brock over and punches. A few looping rights land to the back of Brock's head and neck. Herb Dean stops the fight.

    As far as I can tell the most significant strike is the one at 2:18 when Cain hits the base of Brock's skull. Brock has nothing after that. It also seems likely that whatever strikes Brock absorbed when Cain took him down at about 2:55 shook him up bad enough that he couldn't recover right.

    Also, Brock is not good at straight punches and has tendency to expose the back of his head when he's in trouble. He does it once in the early striking exchanges as well. Still, he landed good strikes on Cain as well. A few knees, a few punches to the face. Good see him improving.

    Peter Ebel on
    Fuck off and die.
  • ZzuluZzulu Registered User regular
    edited October 2010
    Dangerbird wrote: »
    Shield's conditioning was shit in that fight. If he shows up like that against GSP, hes going to get wrecked. At least GSP's fight IQ is alot higher than Kampmann's.

    The Cain vs Brock fight was awesome, but the highlight of the night for me was Diego Sanchez's epic slam. That just made me smile.

    http://postimage.org/image/8m0bpq1w/

    aww yea

    Zzulu on
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  • ZzuluZzulu Registered User regular
    edited October 2010
    GogoKodo wrote: »
    B:L wrote: »
    Thanks guys for taking the time to review the match. It wasn't meant to take anything away from Cain, but to just show what actually happened.
    dlinfiniti wrote: »
    what the hell is this?(45 s)
    i..i dont even know

    Likely just old feelings from when Brock was in WWE.

    Rumor has it that 'Taker thought Brock got shot up the food chain too fast when he was there...caused some friction between the two of them. Apparently it's still there.
    Brock had a Goldberg-like push as "The Next Big Thing" (now "Baddest Man on the Planet"). He was likely a bully as well back then, and of course once an NFL offer came by he gave an absolutely horrible performance for his last match and left. In a sense he betrayed pro-wrestling.

    Gotta love that terrible reporter's comment though. "You were one of the first guys to actually introduce MMA to pro wrestling."
    wre111.jpg

    I know nothing about The Undertaker bringing MMA to pro wrestling. But "one of the first" != "the first" so it could still be a valid statement.

    It's not "one of the first" either. There are a lot of pro wrestlers in MMA and a lot of crossover occured long before Brock entered the picture

    Zzulu on
    t5qfc9.jpg
  • Peter EbelPeter Ebel CopenhagenRegistered User regular
    edited October 2010
    I love it when crazy shit happens in MMA. Who doesn't love Sonnen's Ninja Roll?

    Peter Ebel on
    Fuck off and die.
  • Raoulduke20Raoulduke20 Registered User
    edited October 2010
    Brock didn't look awful at first, he just didn't seem as composed as the Lesnar that survived to arm triangle Carwin. I certainly saw several shots to the back of the head, but only one seemed as if it could really be called intentional on Cain's part imo. Most of the shots seemed to come in flurries or when Brock would turn his head after a punch was thrown. A warning most likely should have been issued without pausing the fight, but in Herb's defense it's hard to fault someone for landing a blow to the back of their opponents head if the person turns while being hit with modestly quick combos. Not that Brock was trying to draw it or anything, it's just something that would be hard to call unless the person throwing the punches is clearly hunting for the back of the head, which I don't feel Cain was doing since he was constantly adjusting the angle on his ground and pound to avoid the back of the head. The real surprise for me was how little dominance Brock had with his wrestling. Cain's good but I didn't expect him to brush off takedowns so easily or to scoot right back to his feet when he was down.

    Raoulduke20 on
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  • ZzuluZzulu Registered User regular
    edited October 2010
    As a big video editing nerd, I looked over the fight during the finish frame by frame and Cain did indeed hit Brock near the base of the skull with a punch that dropped Lesnar to the ground.

    However, the exchange took place as Brock was slumping over and changing directions, turning his back on Cain after eating a knee. I don't think the punch was intentional as much as it occured as a direct result of Brock Lesnar not facing the opponent during an exchange on the feet. It's unfortunate, but it happens.

    I believe Brock himself dropped Couture with a rabbit punch. I also think Vitor finished Rich with rabbit punches. It basically happens a lot and is very very hard to call in realtime for a referee.

    Zzulu on
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  • DangerbirdDangerbird Registered User regular
    edited October 2010
    Throwing a hook that happens to catch your opponent behind the ear is quite different than some of the shots Brock took. That said, its entirely his own fault for constantly flinching and turning his back while Cain was in the midst of throwing punches.

    Dangerbird on
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