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Need H/A with choosing a CIS degree...
HadjiQuest
Registered User regular
Registered User regular
I'm at a community college. They're known for their really good CIS programs; 4 seperate ones that all lead to a 2 year Associates of Applied Sciences. Most transfer on to 4 year school afterwards.
The four options are:
-Software Engineering (I'm not even considering this as an option)
-Computer Support
-Homeland Security (More on this in a bit; not viable as a 2 year)
-Systems Analysis
Here's the list of courses required for the degree and each of its options to help you get a better feel for them
I'm looking to get a decent income job just off the 2 year degree. I may come back after a semester or two and go for that 4 year degree, but I have an outstanding arangement to move closer to someone, and so I need a job pretty quickly.
Is that even reasonable? Will I be able to enter the CIS job field at all with a 2 year degree, or will I have to continue on down the four year path?
Computer Support and Systems Analysis both strike my fancy as far as two yearing goes. Which of those looks more marketable, and what's the difference between them, juding from the required courses?
The homeland security degree is a specialized thing that transfers to a bachelor's, and works best as such. If you folks tell me the best way to go is 4 year, than that's the path I would most likely take.
Now, I'm not just relying on you internet folk. The CIS department head teaches a class of mine, and as we get further in (only 2 sessions so far) I intend to ask him a bit more about my options. I'll also have to see a counselor either at the end of this semester or during the summer. I just want to get a general heads up and feel from all of you.
The four options are:
-Software Engineering (I'm not even considering this as an option)
-Computer Support
-Homeland Security (More on this in a bit; not viable as a 2 year)
-Systems Analysis
Here's the list of courses required for the degree and each of its options to help you get a better feel for them
I'm looking to get a decent income job just off the 2 year degree. I may come back after a semester or two and go for that 4 year degree, but I have an outstanding arangement to move closer to someone, and so I need a job pretty quickly.
Is that even reasonable? Will I be able to enter the CIS job field at all with a 2 year degree, or will I have to continue on down the four year path?
Computer Support and Systems Analysis both strike my fancy as far as two yearing goes. Which of those looks more marketable, and what's the difference between them, juding from the required courses?
The homeland security degree is a specialized thing that transfers to a bachelor's, and works best as such. If you folks tell me the best way to go is 4 year, than that's the path I would most likely take.
Now, I'm not just relying on you internet folk. The CIS department head teaches a class of mine, and as we get further in (only 2 sessions so far) I intend to ask him a bit more about my options. I'll also have to see a counselor either at the end of this semester or during the summer. I just want to get a general heads up and feel from all of you.
HadjiQuest on
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For long term career prospects, I strongly recommend at least a Bachelors degree in some field. Otherwise, you will have to rely solely on luck, connections, and experience and you will be excluded from a large percentage of jobs. For example, a friend of mine was on the 'taking the occasional college-level class' plan, but had a decent job at a system administrator. However, he's gone back for a four-year degree because he had basically no advancement opportunities otherwise.
With respect to the programs you linked:
The computer support classes are just that - learning how to administer and fix specific technologies - networks, databases, Windows, UNIX, and so on. With this sort of skill set, you can expect to look for jobs in system administration, network administration, (possibly) database administration, and so on. You would work for a company maintaining the technological infrastructure. You may or may not interact extensively with end users.
The "system analysis" classes seem to be teaching hodgepodge of technologies closely or loosely related to developing Web-based services. Web technologies like Web servers, XML, and various middleware/component models for composing web applications seem to be covered. I suppose the kinds of jobs you would be looking for here are jobs developing Web-based applications (either internal or external) for a company.
Also note that these programs are, to a large extent, vocational. They call out specific 'buzzword-compliant' technologies in the names of the classes. When you see that, that's a red flag - that means they may be teaching you details of a specific technology without really giving you a chance to grasp the higher-level concepts that are what's really important. Knowing XML is one thing; understanding a breadth of data encoding formats and tools is another. Knowing Oracle is one thing, understanding the design and use of relational databases is another.
Decent four-year programs will be less vocational. For example, in major universities, you will see four-year degrees in things like:
Computer science (the study of computing fundamentals, algorithms, and techniques)
Computer engineering (the design of digital circuits and hardware)
Electrical engineering (the design of analog circuits and hardware)
Management/Information Systems (MIS) (a combined study of complex information systems and traditional management)
Information Science (a study of how information is managed by technological systems, closely related to but not the same as library science)
You will not see many four-year degrees in things like "homeland security," "web applications" and "computer support," and especially not at major universities. Arguably, "computer support" is not a topic that is really general or academic enough for a four-year university curriculum. The closest 4-year curriculum would be MIS, which will have you taking management (e.g., business) type classes along with topics like networking and databases. Likewise, you will not see "web application" four-year degrees. Web systems are not particularly special; they are just another type of complex distributed system. These subjects are covered in software engineering curricula. (Computer science degrees generally allow you to specialize in software engineering, although there is a move afoot to create full-fledged software engineering curricula). The area of computer security (what's called "homeland security" here, presumably to make it sound more novel and relevant than it is) is so new that very few four year curricula have been established, and I'm not really certain whether this will ever become a well-recognized four-year degree.
I'm still interested in hearing about more experiences with 2 year degrees, though. Anyone else have something?
1) Definitely get your 4 year degree asap.
Without a degree of any type you're looking at starting at the bottom with a hellish phone support job that usually doesn't pay enough to live on your own anywhere outside of the ghetto, probably doing that for a few years, and then if your lucky getting moved to desktop support. With a 2 year degree based on my experience, you're not qualified for much more. Even the move to desktop support from phone support will frequently be tough as most of the jobs in that area that I see posted want someone who already has hands on desktop support experience of 1-2 years. The only reason I was able to make the jump was that the company I had done contract phone support for had a desktop support contract. You should note that it was not an internal promotion it was after my phone support contract had ended and I was out of work that I was able to get that job, in my almost 3 years on phone support I saw only 2 people picked from the department to fill roles they were qualified for rather than the company hiring externally for those openings.
I worked my way through higher tier support bouncing from contract to contract. Eventually due to the luck of getting a tier 2-3ish support role directly working with developers and my hobby experience I was able to get a job as a developer. The company fucked up and laid most of us off 5 months later and I've been looking for work since then (that was August). I'm certain that with a 4 year degree I would have been working again within 2 months in another development role based on the job descriptions I've seen and how my interviews have gone. Instead I'm still looking, finally have a couple leads on decent paying, stable, non-low level support jobs but none of them are really what I want to do, especially the one I'm most likely to get which means that I've got to hope for an opportunity to make a move within the company or keep looking.
2) Based on my community college experience (both the classes and people I've met in them) I would hire someone with just a lot of hobby experience over someone with a certificate (not certification like a+ but a non-degree certificate offered from a school) or 2 year degree and no other experience. All community colleges are not necessarily like this, but it's all I have to go on. I'm finding these classes to range from being simplified to the point of being nearly useless without solid hands on experience (and if you had that experience, you'd already know everything the class is teaching because it's too dumbed down) for example, my systems architecture class barely went beyond the detail of A+ certification, to being outright incorrect and terrible, such as my network security class where the book starts the "web security" chapter off by talking about securing smtp servers (for anyone who doesn't know, those are not related in any way) and then talking about how JavaScript is based on Java and runs in the JVM (again, not even close). Someone with a lot of hobby experience shows me that they enjoy the work and have a passion for it and are willing and capable to go out and learn these things on their own. Someone with a 2 year degree says to me that they heard they can make good money working with computers or maybe played some video games and so decided computers would be fun and now have a piss poor education that hasn't made them qualified to do anything and didn't have the drive or love for it to start working with this stuff on their own.
3) As to the classes/program you linked, I've gotta agree with DrFrylock on what he's said. Here's are my thoughts on them, though.
I really think the Computer Support and Software Engineering programs look the best put together in terms of how the classes are related (Note that I haven't read class descriptions, just the names). Even those I feel are incomplete.
Like frylock said, it really looks to me like these mostly try to jump to "Here's some cool and advanced buzzword compliant stuff" without first making you get the basics and groundwork you need to truly understand them, which is the same as what my school does. The systems analysis and homeland security more so than the other two. Learning web services programming without first just learning to program in general AND learning about networking and web servers (most every JSP programmer job I've seen wants solid knowledge of Unix/Linux, Apache, and Tomcat on top of Java and JSP programming at a minimum)? Internet and system security without first giving a solid base in networking and server administration? This leads me to believe that much like my school, it's going to be very watered down and simplified versions of most of these subjects.
It didn't matter if you were a Networking, Security, Programming, or Help Desk CIS student, you were put into the same job until that 4 year degree came. There were a couple places that hired people for what they were actually graduating in, but those jobs were in the $25 to $30k area, which is actually below average income levels for this area.
I can not do anything but tell you to get the associates degree only if you plan to move into a 4 year bachelor program. For the most part, work experience will be more worthwhile than an associates degree ever will.
But then YMMV depending on what the company wants and who the hiring manager is. Some actually like to take people right out of high school and mold them into what they want.
And good choice on the 4-year. I don't have a degree. And although my immense experience landed me a pretty tasty job, my lack of secondary education is keeping me and my income pretty static.
Find your closest state college or university. Talk to them about what transfers and what doesn't. This process is sometimes called 'articulation.' (I don't know why). Basically universities have agreements with community colleges that say "taking ECE 110 at Foobar Community College is the same as taking CE 100 at Foobar U." This will be your best guide.
If you don't figure out what will transfer before you take it, you will screw yourself. You will be one of dozens of bitter transfer students I have met who didn't read the fine print, assumed that everything they took would transfer, and then found out that their four-year degree plan turned into a five-year one. Even if the units transfer, you have to make sure the classes transfer. In a four-year program, you will need to satisfy both unit and classwork requirements. So, let's say the graduation requirements of your 4-year program are (just a small hypothetical):
Classes needed: CS 100 (4 units), CS 101 (4 units), CS 102 (4 units), Elective (4 units)
Units needed: 16
Now, lets say you come in with 12 units, but none of the classes articulate. How many classes do you need to take to graduate with a 4-year degree? Answer: 3. So you end up taking two extra classes and being bitter.
I first started working for Target HQ in Minneapolis as lvl 1 help desk. Expect to have a help desk job sometime in your career, more then likely, your first position. It is a good job to get your feet wet and allows various other opportunities if its for a big company.
I highly suggest coming out of college, if you are having trouble finding a job, hit up a contract company. More then likely they can get you a job within a week or two, as they already have relationships established and their foot in the door.
After ending my contract and realizing that contract reality is just that, contracts. Once your done, you move to a new position. Your likely chance to get hired onto some big coporation was a contracting vying for that 1 position for fulltime against 20 other candidates, is not very good.
I knoew someone at the current job I have and they were looking for a Network Admin. I applied, interviewed and got the position. I work for a small 40 man company, handling all aspects of IT, getting great experience and the pay is decent.
As someone said, there IS a difference in between 2 year degree job openings and 4 year. You certainly have a better shot getting into a position with a 4 year, but the MOST important aspect of what (in my experience) comapnies look for in relation to a position, is your EXPERIENCE, NOT YOUR EDUCATION. I would be much more valuable to a company as a person with a 2 year degree and 3 years of experience then a 4 year degree and 1 year experience.
Experience will mostly likely win the day and the job for you. Degrees will help to a point, but ultimately, they are just a piece of paper.
Will I go back for my 4 year? Maybe. Depends on if I want to stay in the field, and right now, I don't.
Super-cool. That's what I was looking for.
The reason I am not doing for a four year is because I have a family right now and would like to get in and out rather quick. I still plan to get my BS eventually, but it would most likely be part time at night. Thanks for any help.
My 360 is [strike]back[/strike] [strike]bricked[/strike] back!
BA to get them. A lot of employers use a BA as a sort of baseline cutoff to slim down the number of applicants.
From my experience a college will train you on how to use languages while universities teach you the important fundamental concepts of software development.
FWIW I have a BA and I'm working as a software developer, but I spent time in a CC first.
My 360 is [strike]back[/strike] [strike]bricked[/strike] back!
True story: A friend of mine had a two year degree and a few years of experience and was a committer to several large open source projects. He was in the final process of being hired by Google but HR would not let the hiring manager hire him because he didn't have a Bachelors.
It all depends on where you want to start out in the company. If you're looking at help desk/IT work then most of the time a 2 year is good enough. If you want to do software development and you don't have a BA you need a proven background in software development. If you want to be a developer, the kind of software you will be writing will affect what you will need to get the job. A company hiring somebody to work on internal only tools might be more forgiving than Microsoft looking to hire a new kernel developer.
The problem is software companies receive a lot of applications, and most of the people aren't very good. I read an article awhile ago about a company trying to hire software developers and even the ones with experience and BAs couldn't answer simple programming questions. Companies use BAs as a baseline to thin the herd. It sucks, but that's just the way things work.
That says something; to me at least -results may vary.
Stay away from the Homeland Security nonsense. There are a lot of gimmicky programs like that right now because there are a lot of people in Washington funneling pork down any throat marked “Homeland Security,” but that shit isn’t going to last much longer. You don't want to be looking for jobs in 2009 with a Homeland Security degree right after a new President and heavily Democratic Congress have finished wiping the House floor with all the people involved in the Department of Homeland Security and the related billions that have gone nowhere.