Just gonna spoiler whole thing cause I think I have a gigantic run-on sentence:
I am still a little confused that its such a smart decision to go after Joe (to supposedly make the muscle he lent to Gyp scurry like rats). Even if Joe dies, the rats will have to find a new leader anyway and why not just stick with who your current leader figure is. I can't imagine Tabor Heights being on such a lock down that you can't get at Gyp and thus not piss off any of your partners in New York. Your ship captain got a meeting with him pretty easy. Secondly, I was waiting for the cousin of the guy he beat to just say F you and pull out a piece and shoot Gyp in the face. You keep messing with your underlings who have family and friends in your own gang, your own gang is going to go crazy and off you even if it means the rest of the people kill you next. But, I am guessing even if you did kill Gyp, not sure many of his gang would actually think it was a bad thing considering he could be killing and beating them next for any small thing.
Yea, that's one of the reason's I think Nucky orchestrated it to off Margaret's lover.. The whole thing just made no sense.
Except whether it happened or not, Joe still thinks Nucky tried to kill him, so that doesn't make any sense. Why would Nucky throw Owen to the wolves and not get anything out of it?
This last episode fell apart in a number of ways. One of the biggest is why,
if you can get a delivery through to Nucky at 4 A.M., wouldn't you have just shipped him a time bomb instead of setting one up for Babette's?
I thought the same thing, but consider this:
It's not like today, where you fedex C4 to someone's house, call a cellphone, and then boom. A bomb and a timer require the kind of logistics that may exceed the capabilities of your average 1920's gangster. I'm not saying there aren't ways (even back then), but that they may not have been realistic to your criminal element.
Babette's was obviously a time bomb. It went off at a specific moment, not at a specific action. If Nucky had been a minute later 'cause he had to piss before leaving the Ritz no one in his party would've died at all.
Also the fact that a bomb going off in the middle of a major vacation spot would call down the Feds big time. Especially still being on the heels of WWI and all that anarchy business.
It's a horrible contrivance that really makes no sense. Nor does Nucky, needing to quickly gather an army, pissing in Chalky's face with some racist mumbo-jumbo. You tell Chalky, "Okay, you get your club, I get thirty armed men from you in return." Shit doesn't make sense, yo.
More and more this season sets up things to be "dramatic" rather than thinking them through.
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Silas AdamsI know certainty freaks you guys out, but it's 100.Registered Userregular
Fucking amazing episode tonight. The season finale is going to be even better.
Uh, she's struck her kids, signed away and undercut Nucky in a multitude of ways (before and after he started sleeping around on her..) I dunno, I just know that the golden halo over her as the abused woman that lost a baby was tarnished a bit, and she was less white, and more a shade of gray.
I'm not one of those guys that thinks she should be stoned because she wanted to get outta the abusive relationship with Nucky once she wised up or whatever, I'm just saying she ain't no saint, and the fact that she horned Nucky doesn't bode well for her life expectancy, especially since I think Nucky knows.
For the time period, physical punishment of your children (a slap or spanking) was very, very normal. Applying your current cultural norms to it just doesn't work. I'm pretty sure that Nucky has never not been sleeping around on her. Just because you don't see it, doesn't mean it's not happening. It's part of who he is. She also has for a long time been very aware of his less than sterling business practices, so things like signing away the land and other such deeds is her way of making atonement for it.
What? I'm not even talking about cultural norms, it was just what jumped to my mind, as an example of her less than sterling behavior as you like to put it. She's also exploited her relationship with Nucky in a number of ways, and forced him to marry her, essentially. Granted, that was all on his own volition, and don't try to pigeonhole me into defending Nucky, as he is very obviously an anit-hero, and he needs FAR less reason to kill Margaret than he has..
My big point was just, for that last scene with her losing it over the package, and with the way the planning went for her lover's mission, I just get the feeling that Nucky was wise, and orchestrated it.. I could be wrong, and it could've been lazy writing, but just the way the scene broke, and that particular episode, and the whole hummingbird thing that occured while Nucky was concussed.. Makes me think there's gonna be a big showdown between the two, and I think Nucky will be holding all the cards, since he's really who the show's about.
Even nowadays, paddling your kid is fine depending on the kid and situation. And Nucky absolutely did not orchestrate it, didn't you see his reaction to Margaret breaking down?
Also, Margaret was justified in cheating on Nucky. He cheated on her pretty much constantly. I just didn't like how snotty she treated people in S2 and most of 3, but that was in part because she was in a loveless marriage while being too scared to just leave. Owen was her way out, now she's pretty emotionally adrift.
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PharezonStruggle is an illusion.Victory is in the Qun.Registered Userregular
Why would Nucky orchestrate the delivery of that package?
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EshTending bar. FFXIV. Motorcycles.Portland, ORRegistered Userregular
Uh, she's struck her kids, signed away and undercut Nucky in a multitude of ways (before and after he started sleeping around on her..) I dunno, I just know that the golden halo over her as the abused woman that lost a baby was tarnished a bit, and she was less white, and more a shade of gray.
I'm not one of those guys that thinks she should be stoned because she wanted to get outta the abusive relationship with Nucky once she wised up or whatever, I'm just saying she ain't no saint, and the fact that she horned Nucky doesn't bode well for her life expectancy, especially since I think Nucky knows.
For the time period, physical punishment of your children (a slap or spanking) was very, very normal. Applying your current cultural norms to it just doesn't work. I'm pretty sure that Nucky has never not been sleeping around on her. Just because you don't see it, doesn't mean it's not happening. It's part of who he is. She also has for a long time been very aware of his less than sterling business practices, so things like signing away the land and other such deeds is her way of making atonement for it.
What? I'm not even talking about cultural norms, it was just what jumped to my mind, as an example of her less than sterling behavior as you like to put it. She's also exploited her relationship with Nucky in a number of ways, and forced him to marry her, essentially. Granted, that was all on his own volition, and don't try to pigeonhole me into defending Nucky, as he is very obviously an anit-hero, and he needs FAR less reason to kill Margaret than he has..
My big point was just, for that last scene with her losing it over the package, and with the way the planning went for her lover's mission, I just get the feeling that Nucky was wise, and orchestrated it.. I could be wrong, and it could've been lazy writing, but just the way the scene broke, and that particular episode, and the whole hummingbird thing that occured while Nucky was concussed.. Makes me think there's gonna be a big showdown between the two, and I think Nucky will be holding all the cards, since he's really who the show's about.
Even nowadays, paddling your kid is fine depending on the kid and situation. And Nucky absolutely did not orchestrate it, didn't you see his reaction to Margaret breaking down?
Also, Margaret was justified in cheating on Nucky. He cheated on her pretty much constantly. I just didn't like how snotty she treated people in S2 and most of 3, but that was in part because she was in a loveless marriage while being too scared to just leave. Owen was her way out, now she's pretty emotionally adrift.
LOL, good job telling me how I'm wrong about Nucky orchestrating it after the episode that gives it away has aired, I just don't like the reveal their since I feel it was done to just give them a way for Nucky to know about Owen and Marg (although this coulda been done a few different ways, but not as cleanly to make Marg go batshit..).. And yea, I just don't get how they get a package to Nucky in the middle of the night witht he remains of Owen, and he just goes 'hum de dum, gonna open this in front of the misses.'
And yea, I don't know why you guys are getting off on trying to tell me how good it is to hit your kids across the face (which she did, and was justified IMO for what the son did, but again, that's not the point I was making), it was more of a 'they're giving the audience reasons to not think of her as na innocent.' So that she can be written off, since i think the show has realized the Soprano's family aspect isn't what's working.. It's awesome the historical gangster stuff that makes the show so sweet..
And yea, this most recent episode was awesome. i'm hoping I'm not just saying that because of Chalky's larger role, but it was a really strong hour. I say this AFTER watching this week's homeland/the walking dead which were also above average.
As much as I know I'll enjoy the impending Harrow's Big Day, I was kinda hoping his arc this season would finally free him from the violence that has so dominated his character, and show that he was able to find redemption in being a father for Jimmy's boy. Maybe that would be overly saccharine or simply too tidy for a show that likes everything to be connected to everything, but I just don't know how much I believe that Richard would be compelled to [do what the previews showed him doing] at this point of the game.
His threat and later assault on Julia's dad did certainly show that he's extremely protective of those he loves, but I feel like he his character is smart enough to find a way to "rescue" Tommy without resorting to massacre.
And yea, I don't know why you guys are getting off on trying to tell me how good it is to hit your kids across the face (which she did, and was justified IMO for what the son did, but again, that's not the point I was making), it was more of a 'they're giving the audience reasons to not think of her as na innocent.' So that she can be written off, since i think the show has realized the Soprano's family aspect isn't what's working.. It's awesome the historical gangster stuff that makes the show so sweet..
I get what you're saying, I think it's the phrasing that a little off. Like I would say the show is trying to make Margaret compromise her values more and more which is a terrible way to use one of the few female characters. We already have one nutcase bitch running the whorehouse, we don't need to tear down the other woman in the show, too.
As much as I know I'll enjoy the impending Harrow's Big Day, I was kinda hoping his arc this season would finally free him from the violence that has so dominated his character, and show that he was able to find redemption in being a father for Jimmy's boy. Maybe that would be overly saccharine or simply too tidy for a show that likes everything to be connected to everything, but I just don't know how much I believe that Richard would be compelled to [do what the previews showed him doing] at this point of the game.
His threat and later assault on Julia's dad did certainly show that he's extremely protective of those he loves, but I feel like he his character is smart enough to find a way to "rescue" Tommy without resorting to massacre.
I think he would just resort to the massacre because it's what he knows, and it's what he 'does'... His violent side, and his conflicted nature about it is what makes the character so compelling for sure. And yea, I gotta agree with the predictions regarding Gretchen Mol, it's either she gone, or Harrow switches the tables on her, if he allies up with Nucky, and she's under his thumb. They don't really have much of a reason to keep her around, though, with what a monster they've made her into at this point.
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EshTending bar. FFXIV. Motorcycles.Portland, ORRegistered Userregular
Uh, she's struck her kids, signed away and undercut Nucky in a multitude of ways (before and after he started sleeping around on her..) I dunno, I just know that the golden halo over her as the abused woman that lost a baby was tarnished a bit, and she was less white, and more a shade of gray.
I'm not one of those guys that thinks she should be stoned because she wanted to get outta the abusive relationship with Nucky once she wised up or whatever, I'm just saying she ain't no saint, and the fact that she horned Nucky doesn't bode well for her life expectancy, especially since I think Nucky knows.
For the time period, physical punishment of your children (a slap or spanking) was very, very normal. Applying your current cultural norms to it just doesn't work. I'm pretty sure that Nucky has never not been sleeping around on her. Just because you don't see it, doesn't mean it's not happening. It's part of who he is. She also has for a long time been very aware of his less than sterling business practices, so things like signing away the land and other such deeds is her way of making atonement for it.
What? I'm not even talking about cultural norms, it was just what jumped to my mind, as an example of her less than sterling behavior as you like to put it. She's also exploited her relationship with Nucky in a number of ways, and forced him to marry her, essentially. Granted, that was all on his own volition, and don't try to pigeonhole me into defending Nucky, as he is very obviously an anit-hero, and he needs FAR less reason to kill Margaret than he has..
My big point was just, for that last scene with her losing it over the package, and with the way the planning went for her lover's mission, I just get the feeling that Nucky was wise, and orchestrated it.. I could be wrong, and it could've been lazy writing, but just the way the scene broke, and that particular episode, and the whole hummingbird thing that occured while Nucky was concussed.. Makes me think there's gonna be a big showdown between the two, and I think Nucky will be holding all the cards, since he's really who the show's about.
Even nowadays, paddling your kid is fine depending on the kid and situation. And Nucky absolutely did not orchestrate it, didn't you see his reaction to Margaret breaking down?
Also, Margaret was justified in cheating on Nucky. He cheated on her pretty much constantly. I just didn't like how snotty she treated people in S2 and most of 3, but that was in part because she was in a loveless marriage while being too scared to just leave. Owen was her way out, now she's pretty emotionally adrift.
LOL, good job telling me how I'm wrong about Nucky orchestrating it after the episode that gives it away has aired, I just don't like the reveal their since I feel it was done to just give them a way for Nucky to know about Owen and Marg (although this coulda been done a few different ways, but not as cleanly to make Marg go batshit..).. And yea, I just don't get how they get a package to Nucky in the middle of the night witht he remains of Owen, and he just goes 'hum de dum, gonna open this in front of the misses.'
And yea, I don't know why you guys are getting off on trying to tell me how good it is to hit your kids across the face (which she did, and was justified IMO for what the son did, but again, that's not the point I was making), it was more of a 'they're giving the audience reasons to not think of her as na innocent.' So that she can be written off, since i think the show has realized the Soprano's family aspect isn't what's working.. It's awesome the historical gangster stuff that makes the show so sweet..
You really aren't actually reading anything that we're saying, are you? We told you were wrong way before tonight's episode (about the package delivery) and no one ever said that hitting a kid was right. Nucky had no reason to expect there'd be a dead body in the package and his attitude of being untouchable (even after the bombing) caused him to just open it up without thinking.
About the slap, let me break this down for you. Cultural processes (behavior partly acquired from social influences) change over time. They don't remain static. So, what was socially acceptable in the 20s and 30s could quite possibly not be socially acceptable now (e.g., slapping a child). Your insistence that Margaret slapping her kid is wrong just doesn't work because you're viewing it through the lens of a 21st century inhabitant. You have the position of someone almost one-hundred years in the future. They weren't trying to give the audience anything, it's just what people did.
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PharezonStruggle is an illusion.Victory is in the Qun.Registered Userregular
Of course I'm viewing it 'throug the lens of a 21st century inhabitant' because I'm watching a television show. You understand the events that occur in this show aren't historical reenactments, right? And that they make decisions for things characters do in order to tell a story, and that a good storyteller will use the biases, and mores that their audience knows in order to prejudice/invoke emotion for characters. I know, and don't care that it was fine (again, she didn't think it was fine, if you remembered how she acted after doing it, you would know that even SHE wasn't okay with doing it, which is why I brought it up.) Again, I don't care about the slap, I like Marg, and get the characterization, and what she is.. I just think that it might be a dead end for the show because it's not what resonates based on what I've read, and evnen though it's a double standard, Nucky isn't the type of guy that will get cuckolded and just be okay with it.. Granted, he might have some emotional attachment to Margaret, and especially the kids, that'll keep her/them around, the dynamic will just be changing.
And my point about the timing wasn't at you, Esh, it was at Silas. You seem to have a hair up your butt for goosery and me, as this in't the first thread you've tried to strawman my statements. My predictions were explained, and were in regards to the previous episode, and I was wrong, things have gone in a different direction, and Nucky obviously didn't know about Marg and Owen until the package, so that was why it was done.. I could also be wrong about this, and he was just testing Kessler in last night's episode, but he seemed pretty troubled by it, so I feel like it was a fresh revelation.
@madkinggeorge Having some weird issues with my phone, so having a problem keeping order straight/quoting correctly, but I'd be interested in hearing what you think I'm saying, and how you'd express it since I wasn't looking for an argument, just was looking to voice an opinion, and thoughts about the thought process for the production team.
I think he would just resort to the massacre because it's what he knows, and it's what he 'does'... His violent side, and his conflicted nature about it is what makes the character so compelling for sure.
My point was that I had hoped his character would, you know, continue to progress into a less homicidal individual, instead of simply doing "what he knows". How his character struggles to maintain his self-perception as an intact human being goes far beyond the conflict between his violent impulses and his somewhat naive romanticism.
The season began with Richard getting his revenge on Manny Horowitz and now ends with more quasi-revenge. In between you have Richard's attempt at creating a family out of his relationships with Julia and Tommy, which included partial measures to erase Gillan's conditioning of Tommy. Circling back to Richard being an ice-cold killer just feels more like an attempt at feeding the viewer's bloodlust and violent fantasies, rather than something that's vital to Richard's character progression.
Why would Nucky orchestrate the delivery of that package?
He wouldn't. He's a dick, not that much of one. MadCaddy was way off in left field with that theory.
I realize, I was just asking out loud how one could even think that notion.
I just read a review on Huffington Post about the current episode, and they apparently thought it was also possible for Nucky to have orchestrated the delivery.. If he knew that Owen was sleeping with his wife, he'd want him dead, and he'd deliver it like that to turn the screws on Marg was my thought process.. There're more nuanced arguments for it, but it was wrong, so it doesn't matter. I just don't get why he'd open packages in front of her like that, but I guess he just felt he had outthought everyone, and his man Owen was taking care of business.
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EshTending bar. FFXIV. Motorcycles.Portland, ORRegistered Userregular
Of course I'm viewing it 'throug the lens of a 21st century inhabitant' because I'm watching a television show. You understand the events that occur in this show aren't historical reenactments, right? And that they make decisions for things characters do in order to tell a story, and that a good storyteller will use the biases, and mores that their audience knows in order to prejudice/invoke emotion for characters. I know, and don't care that it was fine (again, she didn't think it was fine, if you remembered how she acted after doing it, you would know that even SHE wasn't okay with doing it, which is why I brought it up.) Again, I don't care about the slap, I like Marg, and get the characterization, and what she is.. I just think that it might be a dead end for the show because it's not what resonates based on what I've read, and evnen though it's a double standard, Nucky isn't the type of guy that will get cuckolded and just be okay with it.. Granted, he might have some emotional attachment to Margaret, and especially the kids, that'll keep her/them around, the dynamic will just be changing.
And my point about the timing wasn't at you, Esh, it was at Silas. You seem to have a hair up your butt for goosery and me, as this in't the first thread you've tried to strawman my statements. My predictions were explained, and were in regards to the previous episode, and I was wrong, things have gone in a different direction, and Nucky obviously didn't know about Marg and Owen until the package, so that was why it was done.. I could also be wrong about this, and he was just testing Kessler in last night's episode, but he seemed pretty troubled by it, so I feel like it was a fresh revelation.
I don't even remember seeing or discussing anything with you on the forums before, so please, let's not turn this into something it isn't.
And again, like the metaphor of the lens, it's easy enough to step back and switch out the lens when viewing or reading something concerning another time period or taking place in another environ. Don't be so rigid in how you see things. Yes, I understand that the show is 98% fiction in the story, but the recreated environments and processes happening in them are still there. Hell, the show didn't even have to exist for me to tell you that striking an obstinate child was pretty normal back then.
Of course I'm viewing it 'throug the lens of a 21st century inhabitant' because I'm watching a television show. You understand the events that occur in this show aren't historical reenactments, right? And that they make decisions for things characters do in order to tell a story, and that a good storyteller will use the biases, and mores that their audience knows in order to prejudice/invoke emotion for characters. I know, and don't care that it was fine (again, she didn't think it was fine, if you remembered how she acted after doing it, you would know that even SHE wasn't okay with doing it, which is why I brought it up.) Again, I don't care about the slap, I like Marg, and get the characterization, and what she is.. I just think that it might be a dead end for the show because it's not what resonates based on what I've read, and evnen though it's a double standard, Nucky isn't the type of guy that will get cuckolded and just be okay with it.. Granted, he might have some emotional attachment to Margaret, and especially the kids, that'll keep her/them around, the dynamic will just be changing.
And my point about the timing wasn't at you, Esh, it was at Silas. You seem to have a hair up your butt for goosery and me, as this in't the first thread you've tried to strawman my statements. My predictions were explained, and were in regards to the previous episode, and I was wrong, things have gone in a different direction, and Nucky obviously didn't know about Marg and Owen until the package, so that was why it was done.. I could also be wrong about this, and he was just testing Kessler in last night's episode, but he seemed pretty troubled by it, so I feel like it was a fresh revelation.
I don't even remember seeing or discussing anything with you on the forums before, so please, let's not turn this into something it isn't.
And again, like the metaphor of the lens, it's easy enough to step back and switch out the lens when viewing or reading something concerning another time period or taking place in another environ. Don't be so rigid in how you see things. Yes, I understand that the show is 98% fiction in the story, but the recreated environments and processes happening in them are still there. Hell, the show didn't even have to exist for me to tell you that striking an obstinate child was pretty normal back then.
What I don't understand is where I asked if it was okay? I made a statement about my expected plot direction, and gave a weak justification when pressed, which you consequently used as my only argument to try and redirect the conversation from what my original premise was.
Did you know that they used to hire kids to get whipped for Prince's once upon a time? You might not care/knew already, but now you know!
Really? Is there that much Van Alden hate? I loved his scene with the fat guy and the iron where he goes on a Frankenstein rampage.
I love the character. It's this tragic arc that keeps getting more so, and the best part about it, it's all self inflicted. That scene with the iron was epic.
Yea, I think he probably will be as his arc has been for him to get involved more with the main storyline again, as I think his stuff was just the most 'slow burn' of all is what I was getting at. I'd compare this to the s2e9 of Game of Thrones with how it just felt right, while neglecting a significant portion of the major players. It could also be how much I love Omar in comparison, in general.. I just watched The Wire this year.
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EshTending bar. FFXIV. Motorcycles.Portland, ORRegistered Userregular
Of course I'm viewing it 'throug the lens of a 21st century inhabitant' because I'm watching a television show. You understand the events that occur in this show aren't historical reenactments, right? And that they make decisions for things characters do in order to tell a story, and that a good storyteller will use the biases, and mores that their audience knows in order to prejudice/invoke emotion for characters. I know, and don't care that it was fine (again, she didn't think it was fine, if you remembered how she acted after doing it, you would know that even SHE wasn't okay with doing it, which is why I brought it up.) Again, I don't care about the slap, I like Marg, and get the characterization, and what she is.. I just think that it might be a dead end for the show because it's not what resonates based on what I've read, and evnen though it's a double standard, Nucky isn't the type of guy that will get cuckolded and just be okay with it.. Granted, he might have some emotional attachment to Margaret, and especially the kids, that'll keep her/them around, the dynamic will just be changing.
And my point about the timing wasn't at you, Esh, it was at Silas. You seem to have a hair up your butt for goosery and me, as this in't the first thread you've tried to strawman my statements. My predictions were explained, and were in regards to the previous episode, and I was wrong, things have gone in a different direction, and Nucky obviously didn't know about Marg and Owen until the package, so that was why it was done.. I could also be wrong about this, and he was just testing Kessler in last night's episode, but he seemed pretty troubled by it, so I feel like it was a fresh revelation.
I don't even remember seeing or discussing anything with you on the forums before, so please, let's not turn this into something it isn't.
And again, like the metaphor of the lens, it's easy enough to step back and switch out the lens when viewing or reading something concerning another time period or taking place in another environ. Don't be so rigid in how you see things. Yes, I understand that the show is 98% fiction in the story, but the recreated environments and processes happening in them are still there. Hell, the show didn't even have to exist for me to tell you that striking an obstinate child was pretty normal back then.
What I don't understand is where I asked if it was okay? I made a statement about my expected plot direction, and gave a weak justification when pressed, which you consequently used as my only argument to try and redirect the conversation from what my original premise was.
Did you know that they used to hire kids to get whipped for Prince's once upon a time? You might not care/knew already, but now you know!
You made a statement that said "Margaret is bad for slapping her child!" and then you were corrected by myself and others. At which point you went off on some diatribe about the show not being real or something. It got kinda wharblegarbley at that point and I sorta glazed over.
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EshTending bar. FFXIV. Motorcycles.Portland, ORRegistered Userregular
A girl I dated who now lives in NYC is an extra on the show. You can see her briefly walk by when Van Alden first sells his aquavit during the festival and then she's shown a bunch in the beach scene with King Neptune, sitting and enjoying the show.
Of course I'm viewing it 'throug the lens of a 21st century inhabitant' because I'm watching a television show. You understand the events that occur in this show aren't historical reenactments, right? And that they make decisions for things characters do in order to tell a story, and that a good storyteller will use the biases, and mores that their audience knows in order to prejudice/invoke emotion for characters. I know, and don't care that it was fine (again, she didn't think it was fine, if you remembered how she acted after doing it, you would know that even SHE wasn't okay with doing it, which is why I brought it up.) Again, I don't care about the slap, I like Marg, and get the characterization, and what she is.. I just think that it might be a dead end for the show because it's not what resonates based on what I've read, and evnen though it's a double standard, Nucky isn't the type of guy that will get cuckolded and just be okay with it.. Granted, he might have some emotional attachment to Margaret, and especially the kids, that'll keep her/them around, the dynamic will just be changing.
And my point about the timing wasn't at you, Esh, it was at Silas. You seem to have a hair up your butt for goosery and me, as this in't the first thread you've tried to strawman my statements. My predictions were explained, and were in regards to the previous episode, and I was wrong, things have gone in a different direction, and Nucky obviously didn't know about Marg and Owen until the package, so that was why it was done.. I could also be wrong about this, and he was just testing Kessler in last night's episode, but he seemed pretty troubled by it, so I feel like it was a fresh revelation.
I don't even remember seeing or discussing anything with you on the forums before, so please, let's not turn this into something it isn't.
And again, like the metaphor of the lens, it's easy enough to step back and switch out the lens when viewing or reading something concerning another time period or taking place in another environ. Don't be so rigid in how you see things. Yes, I understand that the show is 98% fiction in the story, but the recreated environments and processes happening in them are still there. Hell, the show didn't even have to exist for me to tell you that striking an obstinate child was pretty normal back then.
What I don't understand is where I asked if it was okay? I made a statement about my expected plot direction, and gave a weak justification when pressed, which you consequently used as my only argument to try and redirect the conversation from what my original premise was.
Did you know that they used to hire kids to get whipped for Prince's once upon a time? You might not care/knew already, but now you know!
You made a statement that said "Margaret is bad for slapping her child!" and then you were corrected by myself and others. At which point you went off on some diatribe about the show not being real or something. It got kinda wharblegarbley at that point and I sorta glazed over.
Ah, I can understand.. I write to stream of conscious with my thumbs.
My point was: Margaret's recent arc feels like what they did to Jimmy in season 2, and then gave some of the reasons. It just felt like a good reason that they might earn Nucky's scorn, and face repercussions. I've never insulted the show for being bad, especially with regards to historical accuracy. I just feel that the scene with Nucky, Owen, and Margaret feels a little heavy handed, and that's just to taste/a nitpick.
I really liked the King Neptune scene/pageant aspect of it.
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Silas AdamsI know certainty freaks you guys out, but it's 100.Registered Userregular
A girl I dated who now lives in NYC is an extra on the show. You can see her briefly walk by when Van Alden first sells his aquavit during the festival and then she's shown a bunch in the beach scene with King Neptune, sitting and enjoying the show.
Cool story, bro. I know.
Is she... is she hot?
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EshTending bar. FFXIV. Motorcycles.Portland, ORRegistered Userregular
A girl I dated who now lives in NYC is an extra on the show. You can see her briefly walk by when Van Alden first sells his aquavit during the festival and then she's shown a bunch in the beach scene with King Neptune, sitting and enjoying the show.
If anyone (who has murdered just a ton of people) deserves a way out on the this show it's Richard.
Whereas the list of people who need to die is getting pretty long.
Well, we know the history of most of the major characters, and when they all actually died. Lucky, Rothstien, Massaria, Capone, Johhny Torio, O'Bannon, etc., They're all just a Wikipedia search away. The fictional characters - well, their expiration dates are all mercurial things.
I think one thing we can all say for certain is:
Richard Harrow is gonna be killin' a lot of people. This is one man with whom you do not fuck.
If anyone (who has murdered just a ton of people) deserves a way out on the this show it's Richard.
Whereas the list of people who need to die is getting pretty long.
Well, we know the history of most of the major characters, and when they all actually died. Lucky, Rothstien, Massaria, Capone, Johhny Torio, O'Bannon, etc., They're all just a Wikipedia search away. The fictional characters - well, their expiration dates are all mercurial things.
I think one thing we can all say for certain is:
Richard Harrow is gonna be killin' a lot of people. This is one man with whom you do not fuck.
Nucky's based on a real character as well.. Can't remember the real name, they changed it slightly for the show to take liberties, but he was a real AC political machine/crime boss with a brother.. Wish I could remember it.
It's pretty funny, when we were watching the scene last night with Lucky, my girlfriend was like, "And this is where he dies.." wasn't sure if I should pop her bubble or not by telling her which ones are being completely created, and those that're 'based' on real people.
If anyone (who has murdered just a ton of people) deserves a way out on the this show it's Richard.
Whereas the list of people who need to die is getting pretty long.
Well, we know the history of most of the major characters, and when they all actually died. Lucky, Rothstien, Massaria, Capone, Johhny Torio, O'Bannon, etc., They're all just a Wikipedia search away. The fictional characters - well, their expiration dates are all mercurial things.
I think one thing we can all say for certain is:
Richard Harrow is gonna be killin' a lot of people. This is one man with whom you do not fuck.
Richard is definitely my favourite character in the show:
I had the biggest shit eating grin when he was piling up all his weapons on the bed. I really fucking hope nothing happens to his new lady friend.
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Except whether it happened or not, Joe still thinks Nucky tried to kill him, so that doesn't make any sense. Why would Nucky throw Owen to the wolves and not get anything out of it?
Also the fact that a bomb going off in the middle of a major vacation spot would call down the Feds big time. Especially still being on the heels of WWI and all that anarchy business.
It's a horrible contrivance that really makes no sense. Nor does Nucky, needing to quickly gather an army, pissing in Chalky's face with some racist mumbo-jumbo. You tell Chalky, "Okay, you get your club, I get thirty armed men from you in return." Shit doesn't make sense, yo.
More and more this season sets up things to be "dramatic" rather than thinking them through.
Even nowadays, paddling your kid is fine depending on the kid and situation. And Nucky absolutely did not orchestrate it, didn't you see his reaction to Margaret breaking down?
Also, Margaret was justified in cheating on Nucky. He cheated on her pretty much constantly. I just didn't like how snotty she treated people in S2 and most of 3, but that was in part because she was in a loveless marriage while being too scared to just leave. Owen was her way out, now she's pretty emotionally adrift.
He wouldn't. He's a dick, not that much of one. MadCaddy was way off in left field with that theory.
LOL, good job telling me how I'm wrong about Nucky orchestrating it after the episode that gives it away has aired, I just don't like the reveal their since I feel it was done to just give them a way for Nucky to know about Owen and Marg (although this coulda been done a few different ways, but not as cleanly to make Marg go batshit..).. And yea, I just don't get how they get a package to Nucky in the middle of the night witht he remains of Owen, and he just goes 'hum de dum, gonna open this in front of the misses.'
And yea, I don't know why you guys are getting off on trying to tell me how good it is to hit your kids across the face (which she did, and was justified IMO for what the son did, but again, that's not the point I was making), it was more of a 'they're giving the audience reasons to not think of her as na innocent.' So that she can be written off, since i think the show has realized the Soprano's family aspect isn't what's working.. It's awesome the historical gangster stuff that makes the show so sweet..
And yea, this most recent episode was awesome. i'm hoping I'm not just saying that because of Chalky's larger role, but it was a really strong hour. I say this AFTER watching this week's homeland/the walking dead which were also above average.
His threat and later assault on Julia's dad did certainly show that he's extremely protective of those he loves, but I feel like he his character is smart enough to find a way to "rescue" Tommy without resorting to massacre.
I get what you're saying, I think it's the phrasing that a little off. Like I would say the show is trying to make Margaret compromise her values more and more which is a terrible way to use one of the few female characters. We already have one nutcase bitch running the whorehouse, we don't need to tear down the other woman in the show, too.
I think he would just resort to the massacre because it's what he knows, and it's what he 'does'... His violent side, and his conflicted nature about it is what makes the character so compelling for sure. And yea, I gotta agree with the predictions regarding Gretchen Mol, it's either she gone, or Harrow switches the tables on her, if he allies up with Nucky, and she's under his thumb. They don't really have much of a reason to keep her around, though, with what a monster they've made her into at this point.
You really aren't actually reading anything that we're saying, are you? We told you were wrong way before tonight's episode (about the package delivery) and no one ever said that hitting a kid was right. Nucky had no reason to expect there'd be a dead body in the package and his attitude of being untouchable (even after the bombing) caused him to just open it up without thinking.
About the slap, let me break this down for you. Cultural processes (behavior partly acquired from social influences) change over time. They don't remain static. So, what was socially acceptable in the 20s and 30s could quite possibly not be socially acceptable now (e.g., slapping a child). Your insistence that Margaret slapping her kid is wrong just doesn't work because you're viewing it through the lens of a 21st century inhabitant. You have the position of someone almost one-hundred years in the future. They weren't trying to give the audience anything, it's just what people did.
I realize, I was just asking out loud how one could even think that notion.
And my point about the timing wasn't at you, Esh, it was at Silas. You seem to have a hair up your butt for goosery and me, as this in't the first thread you've tried to strawman my statements. My predictions were explained, and were in regards to the previous episode, and I was wrong, things have gone in a different direction, and Nucky obviously didn't know about Marg and Owen until the package, so that was why it was done.. I could also be wrong about this, and he was just testing Kessler in last night's episode, but he seemed pretty troubled by it, so I feel like it was a fresh revelation.
My point was that I had hoped his character would, you know, continue to progress into a less homicidal individual, instead of simply doing "what he knows". How his character struggles to maintain his self-perception as an intact human being goes far beyond the conflict between his violent impulses and his somewhat naive romanticism.
The season began with Richard getting his revenge on Manny Horowitz and now ends with more quasi-revenge. In between you have Richard's attempt at creating a family out of his relationships with Julia and Tommy, which included partial measures to erase Gillan's conditioning of Tommy. Circling back to Richard being an ice-cold killer just feels more like an attempt at feeding the viewer's bloodlust and violent fantasies, rather than something that's vital to Richard's character progression.
I just read a review on Huffington Post about the current episode, and they apparently thought it was also possible for Nucky to have orchestrated the delivery.. If he knew that Owen was sleeping with his wife, he'd want him dead, and he'd deliver it like that to turn the screws on Marg was my thought process.. There're more nuanced arguments for it, but it was wrong, so it doesn't matter. I just don't get why he'd open packages in front of her like that, but I guess he just felt he had outthought everyone, and his man Owen was taking care of business.
I don't even remember seeing or discussing anything with you on the forums before, so please, let's not turn this into something it isn't.
And again, like the metaphor of the lens, it's easy enough to step back and switch out the lens when viewing or reading something concerning another time period or taking place in another environ. Don't be so rigid in how you see things. Yes, I understand that the show is 98% fiction in the story, but the recreated environments and processes happening in them are still there. Hell, the show didn't even have to exist for me to tell you that striking an obstinate child was pretty normal back then.
Did you know that they used to hire kids to get whipped for Prince's once upon a time? You might not care/knew already, but now you know!
I didn't even think about that.. That, too, could maybe be why it felt so great (and is being praised so universally.)
I love the character. It's this tragic arc that keeps getting more so, and the best part about it, it's all self inflicted. That scene with the iron was epic.
You made a statement that said "Margaret is bad for slapping her child!" and then you were corrected by myself and others. At which point you went off on some diatribe about the show not being real or something. It got kinda wharblegarbley at that point and I sorta glazed over.
Cool story, bro. I know.
Ah, I can understand.. I write to stream of conscious with my thumbs.
My point was: Margaret's recent arc feels like what they did to Jimmy in season 2, and then gave some of the reasons. It just felt like a good reason that they might earn Nucky's scorn, and face repercussions. I've never insulted the show for being bad, especially with regards to historical accuracy. I just feel that the scene with Nucky, Owen, and Margaret feels a little heavy handed, and that's just to taste/a nitpick.
I really liked the King Neptune scene/pageant aspect of it.
Is she... is she hot?
Why would I date an ugly girl?
Whereas the list of people who need to die is getting pretty long.
Well, we know the history of most of the major characters, and when they all actually died. Lucky, Rothstien, Massaria, Capone, Johhny Torio, O'Bannon, etc., They're all just a Wikipedia search away. The fictional characters - well, their expiration dates are all mercurial things.
I think one thing we can all say for certain is:
It's pretty funny, when we were watching the scene last night with Lucky, my girlfriend was like, "And this is where he dies.." wasn't sure if I should pop her bubble or not by telling her which ones are being completely created, and those that're 'based' on real people.
Richard is definitely my favourite character in the show:
http://steamcommunity.com/id/pablocampy