[Affirmative Action] Perspectives and solutions

1101113151621

Posts

  • Gnome-InterruptusGnome-Interruptus Registered User regular
    edited October 2010
    To move the discussion slightly outside of the AA framework for a moment:

    Are tax breaks for small businesses discriminatory in that they punish their more successful big business counterparts? Should these tax breaks be abolished even if the consequence would be an increase in the number of monopolies and the increase in government required to properly regulate said monopolys?

    I have yet to hear about an AA policy that actively takes away from someone that doesnt qualify for AA, almost all the AA policies that I hear about merely provide advantages for people that qualify for it.

    Gnome-Interruptus on
    steam_sig.png
    MWO: Adamski
  • wwtMaskwwtMask Registered User regular
    edited October 2010
    Modern Man wrote: »
    Heartlash wrote: »
    Do you see the net benefit of AA negated completely by the potential loss of the hypothetical white person? Or do you think it possible that said white person will still be in a better position than hypothetical minority person should AA no longer exist?
    The benefits of AA are wholly irrelevant. IMO, with some really minor exceptions, any racially discriminatory policy or program is unjust and illegal. Whether or not it provides a benefit to someone is not a relevant part of the analysis. It's not even worth discussing the relative benefits and harms of AA.

    Every racially discriminatory practice in the past benefitted somebody. And they were all as wrong as AA.
    wwtMask wrote: »
    So your world view amounts to acknowledging the problem but not actually doing anything meaningful to address the problem. How convenient and useless. You have no solution, but want to scrap the only solution in existence, in effect increasing discrimination, despite your insistence that you want to end discrimination.

    I see something wrong here, and it's the idea that you actually are against discrimination. You claim to desire an end to discrimination, but that is a fucking pipe dream that will never get reached, so how about we deal with the real world and try to decrease the net effects of discrimination? Or is that beyond your ability to square with your world view?
    If a good solution doesn't exist, it doesn't exist. That's unfortunately the case sometimes. But the fact that I can't come up with a better solutiuon doesn't mean that your solution is any good.

    I'm happy to support real-world solutions to discrimination, with the provisio that they cannot be discriminatory themselves.

    Like I said, you're happy to acknowledge that a problem exists, but not actually do anything about it. Which is useless, and convenient since, you being white, it's all good for you. I imagine that you're opposed to Medicaid because it discriminates against non-poor people and takes money from them to benefit poor people.

    wwtMask on
    When he dies, I hope they write "Worst Affirmative Action Hire, EVER" on his grave. His corpse should be trolled.
    Twitter - @liberaltruths | Google+ - http://gplus.to/wwtMask | Occupy Tallahassee
  • Modern ManModern Man Registered User regular
    edited October 2010
    emnmnme wrote: »
    Modern Man wrote: »
    If a good solution doesn't exist, it doesn't exist. That's unfortunately the case sometimes. But the fact that I can't come up with a better solutiuon doesn't mean that your solution is any good.

    I'm happy to support real-world solutions to discrimination, with the provisio that they cannot be discriminatory themselves.

    Names in a hat!
    Picking names at random is actually not a bad solution for college admissions. If you have 20 applicants with the same point score for admissions and only 10 spots, picking names out of a hat is probably the fairest system I can think of.

    I doubt any business would be willing to hire based using that method, though. When it comes to hiring, the most important part is usually the interview. I doubt there are many situations where two+ candidates are equally liked after the interview process.

    Modern Man on
    Aetian Jupiter - 41 Gunslinger - The Old Republic
    Rigorous Scholarship

  • wwtMaskwwtMask Registered User regular
    edited October 2010
    Let's take it a step further, since "name in a hat" doesn't account for discrimination and bias prior to the selection. Where your child attends primary and secondary school should be drawn from a hat. Funding schools should be taken from a general education fund rather than from local property taxes. That would do a lot to assuage some sources of bias that would skew the "name in a hat" selection process for college entry.

    wwtMask on
    When he dies, I hope they write "Worst Affirmative Action Hire, EVER" on his grave. His corpse should be trolled.
    Twitter - @liberaltruths | Google+ - http://gplus.to/wwtMask | Occupy Tallahassee
  • Styrofoam SammichStyrofoam Sammich WANT. 5386-8443-8937Registered User regular
    edited October 2010
    MM do you believe you or white people in general are benefiting from racism in the past in today's world?

    Styrofoam Sammich on
    wq09t4opzrlc.jpg
  • wwtMaskwwtMask Registered User regular
    edited October 2010
    MM do you believe you or white people in general are benefiting from racism in the past in today's world?

    He thinks they don't, but in the off chance they do, white people should be allowed to benefit but not suffer any consequences at all from past racism.

    wwtMask on
    When he dies, I hope they write "Worst Affirmative Action Hire, EVER" on his grave. His corpse should be trolled.
    Twitter - @liberaltruths | Google+ - http://gplus.to/wwtMask | Occupy Tallahassee
  • LoklarLoklar Registered User
    edited October 2010
    Was there AA for Jews or the Irish?

    Loklar on
  • Styrofoam SammichStyrofoam Sammich WANT. 5386-8443-8937Registered User regular
    edited October 2010
    Loklar wrote: »
    Was there AA for Jews or the Irish?
    THe question is IS there.

    And no, because poverty and crime aren't disproportionate problems for Jews and Irishmen.

    You're thinking of reparations for racism, which AA isn't.

    Styrofoam Sammich on
    wq09t4opzrlc.jpg
  • FroThulhuFroThulhu Registered User regular
    edited October 2010
    Loklar wrote: »
    Was there AA for Jews or the Irish?

    I might be mistaken, but I believe there's a financial reparations system for the families of victims of the Holocaust.

    Also, members of some Native American tribes receive monetary reparations.

    As an African American, I don't feel the need to receive reparations. However, I'd be all for the liquidation of former plantation lands, and the money being dispersed. Of course, this would only result in me receiving a few cents at most, but it's the principal. Well... the tobacco industry does use some former plantation land, so maybe it'd be more.

    FroThulhu on
    Nova_C wrote: »
    "I'm arresting you for failing to check yourself. You have the right to wreck yourself."
  • LoklarLoklar Registered User
    edited October 2010
    Loklar wrote: »
    Was there AA for Jews or the Irish?
    THe question is IS there.

    And no, because poverty and crime aren't disproportionate problems for Jews and Irishmen.

    You're thinking of reparations for racism, which AA isn't.

    Doesn't that torpedo the "do you think white people benefit from racism?" argument, because AA isn't for correcting past wrongs. Instead it's for helping disadvantaged people.

    In which case it should be organized around things like 1) coming from a high-crime area or 2) coming from a poor background and not based on race.

    Loklar on
  • Styrofoam SammichStyrofoam Sammich WANT. 5386-8443-8937Registered User regular
    edited October 2010
    Loklar wrote: »
    Loklar wrote: »
    Was there AA for Jews or the Irish?
    THe question is IS there.

    And no, because poverty and crime aren't disproportionate problems for Jews and Irishmen.

    You're thinking of reparations for racism, which AA isn't.

    Doesn't that torpedo the "do you think white people benefit from racism?" argument, because AA isn't for correcting past wrongs. Instead it's for helping disadvantaged people.

    In which case it should be organized around things like 1) coming from a high-crime area or 2) coming from a poor background and not based on race.

    You misunderstand the point to my question, and I'm still waiting on an answer from MM

    AA is for helping overcome the systemic effects of long term racism.

    Styrofoam Sammich on
    wq09t4opzrlc.jpg
  • LoklarLoklar Registered User
    edited October 2010
    FroThulhu wrote: »
    Loklar wrote: »
    Was there AA for Jews or the Irish?

    I might be mistaken, but I believe there's a financial reparations system for the families of victims of the Holocaust.

    Also, members of some Native American tribes receive monetary reparations.

    As an African American, I don't feel the need to receive reparations. However, I'd be all for the liquidation of former plantation lands, and the money being dispersed. Of course, this would only result in me receiving a few cents at most, but it's the principal. Well... the tobacco industry does use some former plantation land, so maybe it'd be more.

    This makes most sense to me. Though I'd be all about suing the government for kidnapping, slavery, murder, ignoring treaties or anything else I could think of.

    Loklar on
  • Modern ManModern Man Registered User regular
    edited October 2010
    MM do you believe you or white people in general are benefiting from racism in the past in today's world?
    Not exactly- I think past racism disadvantages certain non-whites. But the "advantages" that white people might get from past racism is nothing more than what should be the status quo for everyone. That is, generally being judged on one's personal qualities, rather than skin color. The way to fix things is to bring disadvantaged minorities up to the economic and social level of white people through education and the like.

    Modern Man on
    Aetian Jupiter - 41 Gunslinger - The Old Republic
    Rigorous Scholarship

  • Styrofoam SammichStyrofoam Sammich WANT. 5386-8443-8937Registered User regular
    edited October 2010
    Modern Man wrote: »
    MM do you believe you or white people in general are benefiting from racism in the past in today's world?
    Not exactly- I think past racism disadvantages certain non-whites. But the "advantages" that white people might get from past racism is nothing more than what should be the status quo for everyone. That is, generally being judged on one's personal qualities, rather than skin color. The way to fix things is to bring disadvantaged minorities up to the economic and social level of white people through education and the like.

    So then whats the problem with programs that give those disadvantaged groups a change to catch up and overcome years of racism?

    Styrofoam Sammich on
    wq09t4opzrlc.jpg
  • JuliusJulius Registered User regular
    edited October 2010
    Modern Man wrote: »
    My world view includes a belief that it is not just to try and balance out discrimination through more discrimination.
    Why not?
    You either don't get, or don't care, that AA leads to discrimination against innocent individuals for the past sins of other people, or for the sins of society in general. It is not just to demand that someone take a hit for the actions of others.
    Of course we don't care that AA may lead to discrimination against "innocent" people, because all that supposed harm pales in comparison to all the benefits you receive.

    Julius on
  • emnmnmeemnmnme Registered User regular
    edited October 2010
    Reparations, for me, would be free higher education to a state university for all African-American students who graduate highschool with a 3.3 GPA. Win-win. That will lead to more black doctors employed, more doctors for me to choose from in my golden years.

    emnmnme on
  • FroThulhuFroThulhu Registered User regular
    edited October 2010
    Loklar wrote: »
    FroThulhu wrote: »
    Loklar wrote: »
    Was there AA for Jews or the Irish?

    I might be mistaken, but I believe there's a financial reparations system for the families of victims of the Holocaust.

    Also, members of some Native American tribes receive monetary reparations.

    As an African American, I don't feel the need to receive reparations. However, I'd be all for the liquidation of former plantation lands, and the money being dispersed. Of course, this would only result in me receiving a few cents at most, but it's the principal. Well... the tobacco industry does use some former plantation land, so maybe it'd be more.

    This makes most sense to me. Though I'd be all about suing the government for kidnapping, slavery, murder, ignoring treaties or anything else I could think of.

    But then we'd have to sue a third of the European Union. And talk about monolithic entities.

    FroThulhu on
    Nova_C wrote: »
    "I'm arresting you for failing to check yourself. You have the right to wreck yourself."
  • wwtMaskwwtMask Registered User regular
    edited October 2010
    Modern Man wrote: »
    MM do you believe you or white people in general are benefiting from racism in the past in today's world?
    Not exactly- I think past racism disadvantages certain non-whites. But the "advantages" that white people might get from past racism is nothing more than what should be the status quo for everyone. That is, generally being judged on one's personal qualities, rather than skin color. The way to fix things is to bring disadvantaged minorities up to the economic and social level of white people through education and the like.

    So your solution to racial discrimination is to not address racial discrimination at all. Are you seriously implying that racism is solely a symptom of poverty/social status? Care to explain why well educated and well to do black people still face racial discrimination? I'd like to see this fantasy world that you keep referring to where racism disappears once minorities get money and college degrees.

    wwtMask on
    When he dies, I hope they write "Worst Affirmative Action Hire, EVER" on his grave. His corpse should be trolled.
    Twitter - @liberaltruths | Google+ - http://gplus.to/wwtMask | Occupy Tallahassee
  • Styrofoam SammichStyrofoam Sammich WANT. 5386-8443-8937Registered User regular
    edited October 2010
    I don't know, how do you convince someone AA is a good idea when they won't even admit there is a problem?

    Styrofoam Sammich on
    wq09t4opzrlc.jpg
  • wwtMaskwwtMask Registered User regular
    edited October 2010
    It's less about convincing lost causes like MM and more about forcing them to expound upon and defend their position in such a way that it convinces others that AA, while not perfect, is the best solution that we have at our disposal.

    wwtMask on
    When he dies, I hope they write "Worst Affirmative Action Hire, EVER" on his grave. His corpse should be trolled.
    Twitter - @liberaltruths | Google+ - http://gplus.to/wwtMask | Occupy Tallahassee
  • valiancevaliance Registered User regular
    edited October 2010
    Heartlash wrote: »
    I'm honestly of the opinion that the more fair and pragmatic solution to the social and economic racial divide should involve a significantly heavier investment of local and federal money into social and educational programs and facilities in problematic areas.

    The playing field needs to be leveled at a foundational level. Schools, social programs, and public facilities need to be elevated to the level of schools and public facilities in affluent areas. This prevents the problem from being highlighted as specifically racial, while solving the racial problem inherent in our current socio-economic situation.

    We don't give someone an advantage because they're a member of a minority. We consider poorer areas the highest priority for effort and funding.

    except this does nothing to address the explicitly racial disadvantages and discrimination that minorities suffer every day. see: ease of getting loans, ease of getting a job, ease of getting a mortgage, ease of finding a place to rent.

    Additionally, I hold that racial inequality is a problem in and of itself, not just as an adjunct to the more general problem of class discrimination. if your problem is: black people are underrepresented in higher education and the workplace; then you solve that problem by addressing black people, not by trying to help everyone else and helping black people only incidentally or not at all.

    valiance on
  • HeartlashHeartlash Registered User regular
    edited October 2010
    valiance wrote: »
    Heartlash wrote: »
    I'm honestly of the opinion that the more fair and pragmatic solution to the social and economic racial divide should involve a significantly heavier investment of local and federal money into social and educational programs and facilities in problematic areas.

    The playing field needs to be leveled at a foundational level. Schools, social programs, and public facilities need to be elevated to the level of schools and public facilities in affluent areas. This prevents the problem from being highlighted as specifically racial, while solving the racial problem inherent in our current socio-economic situation.

    We don't give someone an advantage because they're a member of a minority. We consider poorer areas the highest priority for effort and funding.

    except this does nothing to address the explicitly racial disadvantages and discrimination that minorities suffer every day. see: ease of getting loans, ease of getting a job, ease of getting a mortgage, ease of finding a place to rent.

    Additionally, I hold that racial inequality is a problem in and of itself, not just as an adjunct to the more general problem of class discrimination. if your problem is: black people are underrepresented in higher education and the workplace; then you solve that problem by addressing black people, not by trying to help everyone else and helping black people only incidentally or not at all.

    I disagree, as legal racial discrimination no longer exists in this country. I think the problem is primarily a byproduct of past discriminatory practices creating a glass ceiling for members of specific groups.

    From a legal standpoint, I don't think the issue can properly be addressed through any means outside of economic class unless you establish a currently relevant systemic reason (e.g. segregation, etc) that particular minorities have it worse.

    It HAS to be based on class, because the problem itself IS class. Poor black kids aren't missing out in life because they're black, they're missing out because they're poor. Prior racial discrimination is what got them there, sure, but it's no longer what's keeping them there.

    Heartlash on
    My indie mobile gaming studio: Elder Aeons
    Our first game is now available for free on Google Play: Frontier: Isle of the Seven Gods
  • enlightenedbumenlightenedbum Registered User regular
    edited October 2010
    Um, it's also because those kids are black.

    enlightenedbum on
    Herbert Hoover got 40% of the vote in 1932. Friendly reminder.
    Warren 2020
  • Styrofoam SammichStyrofoam Sammich WANT. 5386-8443-8937Registered User regular
    edited October 2010
    I disagree, as legal racial discrimination no longer exists in this country

    Well as long as its no legal I guess we don't have to worry about it.
    Poor black kids aren't missing out in life because they're black, they're missing out because they're poor

    And they're poor because they're black.

    Styrofoam Sammich on
    wq09t4opzrlc.jpg
  • wwtMaskwwtMask Registered User regular
    edited October 2010
    Again, trying to frame racism solely as a byproduct of economic inequality is wrong. Being in the upper class doesn't insulate minorities from discrimination based on their race.

    wwtMask on
    When he dies, I hope they write "Worst Affirmative Action Hire, EVER" on his grave. His corpse should be trolled.
    Twitter - @liberaltruths | Google+ - http://gplus.to/wwtMask | Occupy Tallahassee
  • enlightenedbumenlightenedbum Registered User regular
    edited October 2010
    I disagree, as legal racial discrimination no longer exists in this country.

    Worth nothing, this is only true when the party in control of Justice is interested in enforcing those laws. Surprisingly, the Bush Justice Department? Not terribly interested in civil rights law.

    enlightenedbum on
    Herbert Hoover got 40% of the vote in 1932. Friendly reminder.
    Warren 2020
  • Modern ManModern Man Registered User regular
    edited October 2010
    Julius wrote: »
    Modern Man wrote: »
    My world view includes a belief that it is not just to try and balance out discrimination through more discrimination.
    Why not?
    Because I was under the impression that discriminating against people based on race is bad. Or is it only bad when it is discrimination for reasons you don't like?

    Modern Man on
    Aetian Jupiter - 41 Gunslinger - The Old Republic
    Rigorous Scholarship

  • Styrofoam SammichStyrofoam Sammich WANT. 5386-8443-8937Registered User regular
    edited October 2010
    Modern Man wrote: »
    Julius wrote: »
    Modern Man wrote: »
    My world view includes a belief that it is not just to try and balance out discrimination through more discrimination.
    Why not?
    Because I was under the impression that discriminating against people based on race is bad. Or is it only bad when it is discrimination for reasons you don't like?

    Its wrong when there isn't a logical reason for it.

    Styrofoam Sammich on
    wq09t4opzrlc.jpg
  • wwtMaskwwtMask Registered User regular
    edited October 2010
    Modern Man wrote: »
    Julius wrote: »
    Modern Man wrote: »
    My world view includes a belief that it is not just to try and balance out discrimination through more discrimination.
    Why not?
    Because I was under the impression that discriminating against people based on race is bad. Or is it only bad when it is discrimination for reasons you don't like?

    I suppose this depends largely on whether you agree that it's ever okay to have "collateral damage". By your logic, armies should never do anything ever because of a non-zero chance of hurting innocent people. And yet people with sense accept that a small amount of collateral damage is preferable to the larger damage caused by not taking action.

    wwtMask on
    When he dies, I hope they write "Worst Affirmative Action Hire, EVER" on his grave. His corpse should be trolled.
    Twitter - @liberaltruths | Google+ - http://gplus.to/wwtMask | Occupy Tallahassee
  • SchrodingerSchrodinger Registered User regular
    edited October 2010
    Modern Man wrote: »
    Not my problem. If you think there is a societal issue that needs to be addressed, the onus is on you to propose a non-discriminatory solution to the problem.

    So, once again: Do handicap lanes discriminate against non-handicap people?

    Is it possible to make parking easier for the handicapped without such discrimination?

    Answer me a basic question: How do you negate an aspect of white privilege that all white people receive in general without somehow affecting all white people in general?
    There already exist laws that can be used to punish companies and individuals for specific instances of racial discrimination. Those laws provide a way for specific acts of discrimination to be redressed.

    Assuming that they get caught.

    I don't think that we should have laws against pollution. If you get sick or the quality of life suffers because of pollution, then you should track down your illness to a specific particle of smog and track down that particle to the specific illness that created it.

    Which is about as practical as a case where you know for a fact that you are only receiving 2/3 the callbacks of an equally qualified white person, so of course you will be able to figure out which specific rejections are due to racism and which rejections are not.

    Oh, what's that? There's absolutely no way to tell?

    Gee, awfully convenient how your solution to racism doesn't actually do anything to negate your racial disadvantage, huh?
    If you want to go the next step and try to figure out how to fix more abstract issues of discrimination and differing levels of wealth in society, more power to you. But the solution you support (affirmative action) is a racially-discriminatory system that is no different than a system that gives white job and school applicants an advantage based on race.

    Promoting white supremacy is the exact same thing as trying to end it.

    It's sort of like how giving someone a drug to make them sick is the exact same thing as giving someone a drug to make them healthy. In both cases, you're still giving that person drugs in order to affect his health.
    You really can't get around this fact- you whine about supposed white privilege and throw around a bunch of academic mumbo-jumbo, but at the end of the day you can't escape the fact that you are proposing racial discrimination as a solution to racial discrimination. The logical disconnect is, frankly, pathetic and sad.

    The other day, my doctor proposed altering my nutrition levels as a solution to the fact that my nutrition levels had been altered. The logical disconnect makes no sense!

    Schrodinger on
  • Modern ManModern Man Registered User regular
    edited October 2010
    Modern Man wrote: »
    Julius wrote: »
    Modern Man wrote: »
    My world view includes a belief that it is not just to try and balance out discrimination through more discrimination.
    Why not?
    Because I was under the impression that discriminating against people based on race is bad. Or is it only bad when it is discrimination for reasons you don't like?

    Its wrong when there isn't a logical reason for it.
    At least part of the reason behind racial segregation was that it prevented racial conflict. And part of the reasoning behind banning mixed-race marriage was the concern about the children of such a union fitting into society.

    Racial discrimination usually has some sort of "logical reason" behind it.

    Modern Man on
    Aetian Jupiter - 41 Gunslinger - The Old Republic
    Rigorous Scholarship

  • SchrodingerSchrodinger Registered User regular
    edited October 2010
    Modern Man wrote: »
    wwtMask wrote: »
    Apparently since you can't perfectly fix the situation so that everyone is happy, you shouldn't try to fix the situation at all. Retarded logic is retarded, especially coming from Modern Man.
    Except, the solution you support is, on its face, racially discriminatory. I fail to see how racial discrimination is a legitimate solution to racial discrimination.

    The point that your missing is that doing nothing is also racially discriminatory. As proven by numerous studies that show that doing nothing will result in discrimination against black people.

    You just don't care, because it's the type of discrimination that benefits you, by giving you an unfair advantage. Where as that other type of discrimination will benefit everyone by taking away your unfair advantage.
    AA supporters seem to have no problem with disadvantaging people for the sins of others.

    You benefit from racism. You.

    That is not a "sins of others" thing. That is something that you personally benefit from.

    Schrodinger on
  • enlightenedbumenlightenedbum Registered User regular
    edited October 2010
    It's giving African Americans a stool to get to the same place we got to by climbing on their backs.

    enlightenedbum on
    Herbert Hoover got 40% of the vote in 1932. Friendly reminder.
    Warren 2020
  • tinwhiskerstinwhiskers Registered User regular
    edited October 2010
    Does anyone else notice how Tin responds to several pages worth of analysis by posting the same meaningless statement over and over again, without actually bothering to defend or explain said sentence when he is challenged on it?

    Tin, you never answered the question.

    White people, in general, benefit from a racial bonus. How do you plan to correct for this advantage that white people receive in general without actually targeting the problem in general? How do you address a problem that affects the entire white population without affecting the entire white population?

    Your comparison to water boarding and racial profiling fails, because there is nothing inherent about being middle eastern and being a terrorist. However, there is something inherent about being white and benefiting from white privilege. There is no comparison. A Middle Eastern has to make a conscious effort to commit an act of terrorism. A white person applying for a job doesn't have to do anything to benefit from his whiteness. Benefiting from whiteness is inherent to being white.

    So your comparison fails. Your attempt to insist that this is discrimination fails.
    You are framing your question to me as "How do we do X without doing Y?" all I'm saying "You can't do Y, Y is unjust", I'm not on the hook for alternative ways of achieving X.*

    It is on you(as the person who wishes to penalize someone) to prove that the individual warrants penalization, because our legal system deals with people as individuals not racial groups, and statistical data about not having a black name doesn't provide that. Alternatively you could assert white privilege as a universal -not general- claim, but that statement is "All white people are inherently advantaged against all black people.", which is trivial to disprove.

    Your reasoning(generality => universality & collective guilt) can be used to support both of these:

    example1: In general users of crack cocaine are more likely to commit crimes, beyond the consumption of cocaine, than users of powdered cocaine. Therefore it is reasonable to punish possession of crack more harshly than possession of powder cocaine.


    example2:
    Men rape women at disproportionate rates and reap some collective male economic advantage generated by it (economists can probably find one for just the ability to pee standing), therefore all men should share the punishment for every rape.



    *The AA goals(related to college admittance) can be achieved using non-race based criteria(Title 1 schools/single parent homes/first generation college student/low household income), or the Texas example(with tweaking since 10% to any school is causing havoc at the more cool/desirable schools). Why is this solution unacceptable to you?

    Beyond that, jiggling the college admittance bar around is a cart before horse fix when minority HS grad rates sit in the 50% range and birth rates are inversely proportional to education. I haven't done the math but the year to year growth you'd need for the minority middle class, just to keep the current middle:lower class ratio is probably insane. So it would make more sense to focus efforts on the 50-75% of minorities who will not currently attend college at any admittance standard, rather than those that would attend a poorer one without AA.
    Moreover, your solution of ignoring the problem on a general scale and suing businesses that discriminate fails, because you haven't given us a method for identifying such businesses in the first place. It is logically equivalent to saying, "We should not have laws against pollution, we should merely allow for sick people to sue offenders for damages." The problem being that this is completely inefficient and impossible to prove. How do you definitively establish that it was their pollution specifically caused your illness? All they would have to say is, "You got sick because of someone else's pollutions, not ours."

    Um, we have laws against both pollution and racial discrimination. You seem to be arguing that "Prove this company polluted" is an unreasonable standard for enforcing the pollution laws. "They use scary chemicals, the must be polluting, fine them" is no more rational than "they are run by white people, they must be discriminating, fine them". Sorry enforcing the law justly is so much work? But shortcuts to justice are really bad ideas.

    tinwhiskers on
    How do you spell Justice?B D S Non-Violent Resistance to Israel Apartheid & Occupation.
  • Styrofoam SammichStyrofoam Sammich WANT. 5386-8443-8937Registered User regular
    edited October 2010
    Modern Man wrote: »
    Modern Man wrote: »
    Julius wrote: »
    Modern Man wrote: »
    My world view includes a belief that it is not just to try and balance out discrimination through more discrimination.
    Why not?
    Because I was under the impression that discriminating against people based on race is bad. Or is it only bad when it is discrimination for reasons you don't like?

    Its wrong when there isn't a logical reason for it.
    At least part of the reason behind racial segregation was that it prevented racial conflict. And part of the reasoning behind banning mixed-race marriage was the concern about the children of such a union fitting into society.

    Racial discrimination usually has some sort of "logical reason" behind it.

    You're confusing logical reason with excuse.

    None of those arguments were logical.

    Styrofoam Sammich on
    wq09t4opzrlc.jpg
  • Styrofoam SammichStyrofoam Sammich WANT. 5386-8443-8937Registered User regular
    edited October 2010
    How do we do X without doing Y?" all I'm saying "You can't do Y, Y is unjust", I'm not on the hook for alternative ways of achieving X.*
    No but it makes you pretty useless in the discussion of what to do
    It is on you(as the person who wishes to penalize someone)
    You still don't seem to understand what AA is, its not reparations and its not punishment.

    Styrofoam Sammich on
    wq09t4opzrlc.jpg
  • emnmnmeemnmnme Registered User regular
    edited October 2010
    Modern Man wrote: »
    Racial discrimination usually has some sort of "logical reason" behind it.

    Affirmative Action has a logical reason behind it.

    Notice how I don't need to use quotation marks with that statement.

    emnmnme on
  • Modern ManModern Man Registered User regular
    edited October 2010
    Modern Man wrote: »
    wwtMask wrote: »
    Apparently since you can't perfectly fix the situation so that everyone is happy, you shouldn't try to fix the situation at all. Retarded logic is retarded, especially coming from Modern Man.
    Except, the solution you support is, on its face, racially discriminatory. I fail to see how racial discrimination is a legitimate solution to racial discrimination.

    The point that your missing is that doing nothing is also racially discriminatory. As proven by numerous studies that show that doing nothing will result in discrimination against black people.

    You just don't care, because it's the type of discrimination that benefits you, by giving you an unfair advantage. Where as that other type of discrimination will benefit everyone by taking away your unfair advantage.
    Except, the two situations are not the same. You support active racial discrimination. On the other hand, I'm not happy with the results of past discrimination that disadvantage certain minorities, but that system of passive disadvantage is better than being in favor of active racial discrimination.

    You keep trying to dance around the fact that you're the one who supports active racial discrimination, while I oppose such a system.
    AA supporters seem to have no problem with disadvantaging people for the sins of others.

    You benefit from racism. You.

    That is not a "sins of others" thing. That is something that you personally benefit from.
    Maybe. But even if I do, my hands are clean since I don't engage in discrimination against anyone. Therefore, you don't have the moral or legal right to demand I suffer any diasdvantage to make up for other peoples' sins.

    Do you consider it morally acceptable to punish someone for the wrongdoings of others?

    Modern Man on
    Aetian Jupiter - 41 Gunslinger - The Old Republic
    Rigorous Scholarship

  • SchrodingerSchrodinger Registered User regular
    edited October 2010
    Modern Man wrote: »
    My world view includes a belief that it is not just to try and balance out discrimination through more discrimination.

    So if someone gives you a stolen Xbox, it would be wrong for the owner to reclaim his property.

    Because it's wrong for someone to try to balance out taking an Xbox by taking an Xbox.

    There's a logical disconnect there, right?
    You either don't get, or don't care, that AA leads to discrimination against innocent individuals for the past sins of other people, or for the sins of society in general.

    Again, you're holding white people to a completely different standard to black people in an attempt to prove you aren't racist. When your double standard actually proves the exact opposite.

    White people in general benefit from a massive racial bonus simply for being white. You have no problem with this.

    Affirmative Action attempts to take some of that bonus away. Not all of it. Just a little. And only in very specific areas. But this is something that you have a huge problem with.

    Again, if white people in general have a racial bonus, then how do you solve that problem without negatively affecting white people in general?

    Explain this to me. If you are given a stolen Xbox that doesn't belong to you, then how do you intend to make things right without returning or paying for that that Xbox? How? That's the problem. You insist that you never asked for your white privilege and you say you agree that it's wrong, but you refuse to let anyone do anything that would take your white privilege away from you.
    I don't have a solution. But that doesn't mean your favored solution (AA) is right or just.

    So you don't have any actual moral standard to accuse someone else of being immoral, but you're going to say that they are anyway, because you don't want to give up your white privilege.

    Schrodinger on
  • Styrofoam SammichStyrofoam Sammich WANT. 5386-8443-8937Registered User regular
    edited October 2010
    Maybe. But even if I do, my hands are clean since I don't engage in discrimination against anyone. Therefore, you don't have the moral or legal right to demand I suffer any diasdvantage to make up for other peoples' sins.

    "So what if I have an unfair advantage, you can't give that guy the advantage came at the expense of an leg up because i didn't ask for an advantage."

    You see how silly this is?

    Styrofoam Sammich on
    wq09t4opzrlc.jpg
Sign In or Register to comment.