Child-Free Spaces?

Dread Pirate Arbuthnot

So a month ago, there was a controversy in the Feminist Blogsophere.

A writer claimed that 'You do not have the right to child free spaces.

http://www.feministe.us/blog/archives/2010/07/27/shorter-cuter-more-honest-people/

you do not have a right to child free spaces.

there is this weird thing in western culture, especially n american culture, where people/adults seem to believe that they have a right to discriminate against children.
recently, i was hanging out at a bar, when a friend called and invited me to come hang out for a few drinks and chill time as the sun came up. cool. then, i heard a bit of whispers in the background and the question posed to me: is aza with you?
ummm…what? why? does that matter?

my daughter, aza, is a person. a three year old person. a funny, cute, bad-ass, curly haired person who loves to dance and draw, wearing short skirts, watching pink videos, and talking on the phone. frankly, she is probably cooler than you are. she is definitely cooler than i am. but even if she wasnt you dont have the right to discriminate against her based on her age. or her race. or her gender. or her nationality, etc.

sometimes she is loud. but frankly, she is normally one of the quieter people in a room full of inebriated souls. and since she is a person, and not a thing, it is not my job as her mother to ‘control’ her. love her? yes. model how to be respectful to fellow human beings and other sentient creatures? yes. teach her self respect, self love? definitely yes

The Femiblogosphere immediately erupted into a clusterfuck. But I thought it was an interesting initial topic: do we have a right to child-free spaces?

Now, I'm a young person and don't have kids, so I'm quite ignorant on this, but I'm of the view that children should be limited in their behavior in public spaces (and it is the parent's duty to control their kids)

For instance, if an adult was speaking in a really, really loud voice, screaming, and throwing their shit around, they would be asked to leave. I don't see how it is different for a child. Of course, people want to teach their children how to behave in spaces for when they are adults. But what does the kid learn if the adult ignores them and lets them scream and run between the other tables?

Of course, there are places where children should be free to be children. A child should be able to have a grand ol' time in a McDonald's. But in a restaurant where I'm paying for a relaxing evening out, or a scary movie, or a bar, I think should absolutely be restricted to adults. I also think one of the great privileges of adulthood is not being able to hang around kids unless you want to, in opposition to school days and babysitting when we were younger.

What do you guys think? I'm especially interested to hear from the parents.

Eat it You Nasty Pig.

I think people have the right not to hang out around children if they don't want to.

Screaming kids in restaurants are the fucking worst thing

ed: also, the kid learns the entirely positive idea that screaming is not a good way to get attention. Which is an important lesson for kids to learn, just not in the middle of everyone else's dinner

So It Goes

I think this is a non issue. The blogger overreacted and needs to maybe find some new friends. Of course adults can choose who they want to hang out with and be around. There is a standard for public behavior for kids that is different from adults, but it's still a standard.

Wash

Man if I was hanging out with some people and one of them decided to bring their kid along I would be annoyed. The presence of a child immediately imposes a certain amount of censorship, and alters the dynamic of a group. It is a reasonable complaint.

Aegis

Yea, the rights talk surrounding her post just serves as an unnecessary provocation. It's a courtesy/etiquette issue, not a rights issue.

moniker

As a mother it is most definitely her legal requirement and responsibility to 'control' her children. With the exception of times when other persons or bodies act 'in loco parentis' during which time it is their legal requirement and responsibility to control them. This is in exchange for restricted rights, responsibilities, and typically a lot more lee-way in numerous matters since they are technically chattel.

Basically, you can't have it both ways. If you want your 3 year old to be treated as an autonomous individual, then they're going to need to have the responsibilities of an autonomous individual to go along with that. Meaning the bouncer should be carding her, restaurants can ask her to leave for being too loud, and the cops can be called if she creates a breach of the peace/public disturbance when throwing a tantrum which won't get purged on her 18th birthday. That doesn't sound like a good idea to me.

KalTorak

Getting a babysitter when you want to go out is part of being a parent. I'm sorry if the world doesn't conform with your desires to bring your toddler to an R-rated movie or a bar or the opera, but that shit comes with the diapers.

DanHibiki

Aza?

That's a terrible name.

emnmnme

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fitxofd7kOA

Wasn't there a Simpsons episode about this? "Let's kill every kid ...... friendly thing in Springfield!"

Regina Fong

I wouldn't tell my friends with kids this but I find their children fairly annoying and their presence makes the parents dull.

When kids are there everything is about the kids. Everything. So while I again, wouldn't mention this to parents, it certainly is a consideration when it comes to invitations and who I plan to hang out with.

Feral

How about this?

You can bring your child with you to restaurants or other public spaces.

But if your child can't control his or her behavior and is obnoxiously loud, I can tell you to take your screaming brat elsewhere before I stuff a napkin in his mouth.

I think that's fair. Rather than make life difficult for the majority of parents who don't have problematic children, we can subject the minority who do to public censure and shame.

Wash

Seriously.

my daughter, aza, is a person. a three year old person. a funny, cute, bad-ass, curly haired person who loves to dance and draw, wearing short skirts, watching pink videos, and talking on the phone. frankly, she is probably cooler than you are.

She is all those things to the parent. No one else will appreciate or view a child the way a parent does, and all those little neat, cute things they do for the parent are just... whatever, to other people. So aside from not being able to talk casually, use vulgar language, or engage in specific topics - which makes a normally comfortable setting (that of being around friends) less comfortable - there's also this one new dull person present, who in turn makes their parent dull.

Not fun.

Regina Fong

Yes. Parents find their own children endlessly entertaining and bright and magical and fun and they don't even feel that way about other people's kids.

Yet they blithely expect everyone to feel that way about their particular kids.

I blame biology.

Rent

This is why i hate hanging out with parents w/ children

Zedar

Fluffy, Our Beloved Flopsy Bunny Friend wrote: »

Seriously.

my daughter, aza, is a person. a three year old person. a funny, cute, bad-ass, curly haired person who loves to dance and draw, wearing short skirts, watching pink videos, and talking on the phone. frankly, she is probably cooler than you are.

She is all those things to the parent. No one else will appreciate or view a child the way a parent does, and all those little neat, cute things they do for the parent are just... whatever, to other people. So aside from not being able to talk casually, use vulgar language, or engage in specific topics - which makes a normally comfortable setting (that of being around friends) less comfortable - there's also this one new dull person present, who in turn makes their parent dull.

Not fun.

Agreed on the first point. I am yet to encounter the three year old who is in any way intentionally funny. Any humour derived is purely from a "stupid young person doesn't understand how world works" point of view.

Anyway, I'm just reaching the point where parties I go to are populated by several people with very young (0-2 year old) children, and so far this hasn't been a major issue. For the first couple of hours we play it low key and the children crawl around doing their thing, then they are put to bed and we pick things up a bit, no big deal. Personally i would question the judgement of any parent who wanted their child staying up til 3am and participating in the party, and since my friends are reasonable people this hasn't been a problem.

adytum

Her friends would have expected her to possibly have her kid with her at a bar at 7AM? What a mom.

Am I the only one that pulled that out of her rambling?

Unknown

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Regina Fong

I love that "the feminist blogsphere" is a thing, and that it's exactly what you expect it to be from the name.

Ashcroft

You can bring your kids to my party but if they don't have any booze they're not getting in.

Unknown

This content has been removed.

So It Goes

I dunno...I love kids. I can't agree with the sentiment "all kids suck." But they can get annoying and there are spaces and times that kids aren't as fun to have around. The idea of "no right to child free spaces" is just silly. I have a couple friends who became parents last year and they definitely didn't act as entitled and silly as this blogger.

Regina Fong

mcdermott wrote: »

Yup. People never seem to realize that nobody thinks your kid is an interesting, cool, cute, amusing, or lovable as you do.

In fact, there's a very good chance the a majority of people you subject to your children think they're annoying obnoxious, or possibly boring.

Basically, your kids probably suck. Don't take it personally, though...everybody else's probably do too.



I had some parents flip the fuck out on me recently, because on a cruise I opened the door and told their kids to be quiet. They were running races up and down our hallway (outside our room), and playing fucking pattycake outside my door. Loudly. It wasn't early, or anything, but at the same time we were up partying late the night before and wanted an afternoon nap before dinner. So despite how fucking adorable you may think your kids are, there are about a thousand other spaces that are not outside somebody's bedroom for them to do that shit, including some areas dedicated specifically to children. Take them there.

And guess what: I didn't want to have to tell your kids to be quiet. I would prefer if you had done that. But since you weren't courteous enough to do that, don't be surprised if I don't show you the courtesy of going through you (besides, you were nowhere in sight at the time anyway), and don't be surprised if I'm not nice about it. I am having to discipline your children for you. That doesn't come with cutesy voice and candy.

Parents have a peculiar expectation that people pay attention to their children whenever the parents want and to ignore them whenever they want.

And you're also expected to read their mind to know which time it is sometimes.

It's also probably incredibly embarrassing to have your children disciplined by a stranger, no matter how justified.

I remember one time when I was working retail hell a woman customer wanted to complain about something, I don't remember what, but she used her young daughter as a proxy to do it.

She was speaking to her daughter about what was unsatisfactory, but it was directed at me. I really didn't know how to respond. And parents of small children can't understand why they and their spawn might be unwanted at social gatherings that are supposed to be fun.

Coinage

adytum wrote: »

Her friends would have expected her to possibly have her kid with her at a bar at 7AM? What a mom.

Am I the only one that pulled that out of her rambling?

Yeah, I find that much more alarming than any stupidity about imposing her child on somebody else. Since when is it ok to bring a kid to a bar at any time, what the fuck?

matt has a problem

It's bullshit. It's self-centered, narcissistic "me" generation bullshit. Parents are not special because they managed to reproduce. Kids are not special by the virtue of them being a kid.

Also any parent who has their kid at a bar before sunrise is an unfit parent and should be arrested as such.

Darkewolfe

I think we can all agree that anyone who has borne children is less of a person for it, and they should all be caged away from the rest of society.

So It Goes

Coinage wrote: »

adytum wrote: »

Her friends would have expected her to possibly have her kid with her at a bar at 7AM? What a mom.

Am I the only one that pulled that out of her rambling?

Yeah, I find that much more alarming than any stupidity about imposing her child on somebody else. Since when is it ok to bring a kid to a bar at any time, what the fuck?

I go and have happy hour/drinks with people at a local pub and they bring their kids...it's not a big deal.

Now, in the middle of the night when kids should be sleeping...yeah

Elldren

why on earth would you take your three year old daughter to hang out in bars and allow her to watch pink films?

what the fuck, seriously

edit: also, a pub isn't a bar. They are different things

Rent

Darkewolfe wrote: »

I think we can all agree that anyone who has borne children is less of a person for it, and they should all be caged away from the rest of society.

yep

Especially since there are parentless children all around the world who desperately need families right now

YodaTuna

How is this topic even related to feminism? Is this woman honestly angry that her friends didn't want a child around them while they were most likely going to be drunk?

This chick sounds like the type of person who is going to try their kid's friend rather than their parent. Good luck with that.

Zedar

The feminist connection seems to be that she thinks that by partitioning off the children, mothers will be expected to go with them. Pretty tenuous really, and if anything seems to come back to an assumption on her part that it would be the mother doing so

Rear Admiral Choco

YodaTuna wrote: »

How is this topic even related to feminism?

but i dont understand people who claim to be feminist on one hand, and on the other hand think that children should be designated to certain public and private spaces, not mixing in ‘normal’ public areas, such as restaurants, stores, airplanes, etc. cause in us culture, when you create little reservations for children, you are really creating little reservations for mothers. it is the mother who will be sent away to take care of the child. and how is that supporting all women and girls?

ive even heard people claim that mamas, like me, just dont want to face up to the fact that they are parents and still want to live as if they are unattached. ummm…nope. i know im a mama. i love being one. i simply dont believe that my mamahood means that i must be shunted away from the rest of society. nor do i believe it is beneficial to my daughter if she is not allowed to interact and explore the world as it is.

From the post.

EDIT: Whooops this is Cass not Choco.

emnmnme

YodaTuna wrote: »

This chick sounds like the type of person who is going to try their kid's friend rather than their parent. Good luck with that.

She also didn't use capitalization, which makes me even more annoyed with her.

EDIT: Ok, that blogger has her wires crossed. Prejudice against toddlers is a good thing. It shields them from harm.

Elldren

Rear Admiral Choco wrote: »

YodaTuna wrote: »

How is this topic even related to feminism?

but i dont understand people who claim to be feminist on one hand, and on the other hand think that children should be designated to certain public and private spaces, not mixing in ‘normal’ public areas, such as restaurants, stores, airplanes, etc. cause in us culture, when you create little reservations for children, you are really creating little reservations for mothers. it is the mother who will be sent away to take care of the child. and how is that supporting all women and girls?

ive even heard people claim that mamas, like me, just dont want to face up to the fact that they are parents and still want to live as if they are unattached. ummm…nope. i know im a mama. i love being one. i simply dont believe that my mamahood means that i must be shunted away from the rest of society. nor do i believe it is beneficial to my daughter if she is not allowed to interact and explore the world as it is.

From the post.

EDIT: Whooops this is Cass not Choco.

Yeah, but that's a false expectation on her part.

If you can't bear to be parted from your kid to do something in a place where kids should not be or that kids shouldn't really do or with people who don't like your kid that is on you.

edit: she is acting as if she is attached at the hip to her three year old and frankly no, she isn't, that's an issue she has, and it's not a feminist issue it's a personal one.

Wash

The game changes when you have a kid. She sounds like she's in denial.

So It Goes

Does she mention this kid's dad ever in her post

She seems to live in a world of only single moms

YodaTuna

Rear Admiral Choco wrote: »

YodaTuna wrote: »

How is this topic even related to feminism?

but i dont understand people who claim to be feminist on one hand, and on the other hand think that children should be designated to certain public and private spaces, not mixing in ‘normal’ public areas, such as restaurants, stores, airplanes, etc. cause in us culture, when you create little reservations for children, you are really creating little reservations for mothers. it is the mother who will be sent away to take care of the child. and how is that supporting all women and girls?

ive even heard people claim that mamas, like me, just dont want to face up to the fact that they are parents and still want to live as if they are unattached. ummm…nope. i know im a mama. i love being one. i simply dont believe that my mamahood means that i must be shunted away from the rest of society. nor do i believe it is beneficial to my daughter if she is not allowed to interact and explore the world as it is.

From the post.

EDIT: Whooops this is Cass not Choco.

Why is she singling out mothers? I mean it's up to her family to decide who will take care of the child. Normally I'm pretty chill with feminists, but the link seems tenous at best. "I'm a parent and I feel like I'm being treated unfairly... it must be because I'm a woman." No, it's because you're a parent.

matt has a problem

Elldren wrote: »

Rear Admiral Choco wrote: »

YodaTuna wrote: »

How is this topic even related to feminism?

but i dont understand people who claim to be feminist on one hand, and on the other hand think that children should be designated to certain public and private spaces, not mixing in ‘normal’ public areas, such as restaurants, stores, airplanes, etc. cause in us culture, when you create little reservations for children, you are really creating little reservations for mothers. it is the mother who will be sent away to take care of the child. and how is that supporting all women and girls?

ive even heard people claim that mamas, like me, just dont want to face up to the fact that they are parents and still want to live as if they are unattached. ummm…nope. i know im a mama. i love being one. i simply dont believe that my mamahood means that i must be shunted away from the rest of society. nor do i believe it is beneficial to my daughter if she is not allowed to interact and explore the world as it is.

From the post.

EDIT: Whooops this is Cass not Choco.

Yeah, but that's a false expectation on her part.

If you can't bear to be parted from your kid to do something in a place where kids should not be or that kids shouldn't really do or with people who don't like your kid that is on you.

Plus, a 3 year old doesn't have the comprehensive ability to understand how to act in an adult situation. At best you'll just get mimicry.

Slider

I basically just lost a good friend, because his wife is pregnant...again. One child allows a parent a small window of opportunity to socialize and have friends. Two children consume your life and leave you with nothing.

In my group of friends, I am the only person who doesn't have any kids and, to be honest, I don't understand why people feel the need to procreate. Children are a chore!

So It Goes

Slider wrote: »

I basically just lost a good friend, because his wife is pregnant...again. One child allows a parent a small window of opportunity to socialize and have friends. Two children consume your life and leave you with nothing.

In my group of friends, I am the only person who doesn't have any kids and, to be honest, I don't understand why people feel the need to procreate. Children are a chore!

Consume your life and leave you with nothing, eh. Harsh.

emnmnme

Slider wrote: »

Children are a chore!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=96CUQCoTkug

Casual Eddy

Regina Fong wrote: »

I love that "the feminist blogsphere" is a thing, and that it's exactly what you expect it to be from the name.

based on this one blog entry?