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On a totally different topic: I can't agree with Gretorp on tanks being useless. I just love my tanks, even with the nerf. It's weird for me to imagine playing terran and not doing a classic tank push (not every game, but it's a style I enjoy often).
Thoughts?
It's funny. I don't see as much tank play as I used to, but the slow tank push still seems pretty ugly. Watched a recent game where HuK barely held off tanks and marines right at his natural on Blistering Sands. He pretty much won because he is HuK. Anyone else would have crumbled.
It may be that I just don't let Terran mass tanks like I used to. I push pretty hard after my first immortal is out. If they've invested heavily in tanks at that point, I tend to crush them.
Yeah Immortals are rough on tanks - it's shield makes my tank commander's cry. Still, I try to position tanks so they are hard to get to and are in separate groups so they can cover each other for when units get close.
Seems to help alot...though my brain might just be too stuck in classic BW terran tank / inf. push mindset. May turn out this style is not as viable in SC2, but I guess time will tell.
Any time a Terran goes tanks, I just counter with colossus, blink stalker, mothership and kick the crap out of em.
I don't see how you can really say that given the tallies done by Billmaan above. If the system only cared about your 30 most-recent games, you'd still be in Bronze.
Well, Billman "sampled" about "20 games". I'm not sure of the definition there. If he means that he went through my last 20 games, he probably has a valid point - if thats how the system is determining placement (and we don't know). If its a "sample", I have no idea what that means.
Really man, I understand how you feel, but you really should let this go. It's like over taking your entire focus on the game (it would seem) and I think it's poisonous to your development as a player.
Sorry, I normally keep my opinions on stuff like this to myself, but it's hard to watch you tear yourself apart over this instead of enjoying the game.
nah, i enjoy the games. i lose when i'm playing customs where i'm should lose, and try to learn from that, and win the games that I'm supposed to win. It is frustrating when you've dug yourself out of a hole, are in an extreme top position in league, and can't figure out what to do to get out of it. Notice that I haven't been bitching until I've been ranked #1 in my division, sc2ranks is putting me near the top in the division world wide, and i've kept on winning.
I have no idea where i am, or where to go. I mean, i know that i'm sitting in my office, but what path gets me out of this league?
GoodKingJayIIIThey wanna get mygold on the ceilingRegistered Userregular
edited October 2010
To steer this conversation another direction, I've got a question. I'm getting mixed advice on this, and as always I turn to the wisdom of the PA forumers.
Is general consensus that one base--constantly building workers, and constantly building supply--can support three unit producing structures (constantly producing) or four?
My common opener (2 gate robo) seems to suggest that three is the way to go. After my first push, I want my expansion up and running. And by that I mean, able to send ~16 probes over to it without completely screwing economy at my first base.
If I build four unit producing structures, I either can't produce from all of them each production cycle, or I have to cut probes. But people have disagreed with me, and said that four UPs are possible on one base. I haven't seen it in my own play, but I am Silver and I could be missing a big piece of the puzzle.
I'm simply skeptical of four UPs on one base, because I've heard Day9 say it a bunch of times, and I've seen a lot of pros (HuK, adelscott, gretorp) follow this principle.
To steer this conversation another direction, I've got a question. I'm getting mixed advice on this, and as always I turn to the wisdom of the PA forumers.
Is general consensus that one base--constantly building workers, and constantly building supply--can support three unit producing structures (constantly producing) or four?
My common opener (2 gate robo) seems to suggest that three is the way to go. After my first push, I want my expansion up and running. And by that I mean, able to send ~16 probes over to it without completely screwing economy at my first base.
If I build four unit producing structures, I either can't produce from all of them each production cycle, or I have to cut probes. But people have disagreed with me, and said that four UPs are possible on one base. I haven't seen it in my own play, but I am Silver and I could be missing a big piece of the puzzle.
I'm simply skeptical of four UPs on one base, because I've heard Day9 say it a bunch of times, and I've seen a lot of pros (HuK, adelscott, gretorp) follow this principle.
For Protoss, one base can generally support 3 gateways + tech. So 3-gate robo, 3-gate stargate. That equals 4-structures I guess.
I don't see how you can really say that given the tallies done by Billmaan above. If the system only cared about your 30 most-recent games, you'd still be in Bronze.
Well, Billman "sampled" about "20 games". I'm not sure of the definition there. If he means that he went through my last 20 games, he probably has a valid point - if thats how the system is determining placement (and we don't know). If its a "sample", I have no idea what that means.
Look, I know it wasn't the conclusion you wanted to see, but at least read the post. My exact words were "I collected data on your last 30 1v1 games"; I don't see how there's any ambiguity there. I went through each one of the last 30 1v1 ladder games you played and recorded the outcome as well as your opponent's (current) league.
Billman, I quoted you as the wrong guy who did the "sample". sorry.
it can support 4, but that's without being able to expand and drone up anymore
Ok yeah, that's what I thought. That's why it's basically an all-in, because either you've got an expansion that will take a while to get running, or your one base economy will get left in the dust by good macro pretty quickly.
I'm gonna keep doing what I'm doing. Cuz I like having an expansion after I bust down a door.
Joe, what you need to do is stop blaming Blizzard. They have stated there are some players with problems getting promoted. They have not stated what the problem is, or who it applies to. It may very likely not apply to you since you don't have a high win percentage against higher league players. It may even apply to you, but we won't know until Blizzard fixes the problem or tells us more about it.
We also don't know if the number of total games played is a factor, true, but it has been said by Blizzard people that you get checked for promotion after your first 30 games, and then checked again at some unknown rate thereafter.
Billman even went to the trouble to look up your last 30 1v1 games to see where you stand. Indeed everything does point to you belonging in the top of the bronze league.
If SC2Gears linked into SC2Ranks.com data and you had all your 700+ ladder game replays saved, you could see your actual win percentage against each league type. I don't think it does that yet, and again you'd need all your replays for it to anaylze. Something to keep in mind for the future, though, if they implement it.
TL;DR: It may or may not be Blizzard's fault, but you need to stop assuming that it is.
We also don't know if the number of total games played is a factor, true, but it has been said by Blizzard people that you get checked for promotion after your first 30 games, and then checked again at some unknown rate thereafter.
I think this is a myth because I was promoted from Silver->Gold on my NA account after about 12 total games.
To steer this conversation another direction, I've got a question. I'm getting mixed advice on this, and as always I turn to the wisdom of the PA forumers.
Is general consensus that one base--constantly building workers, and constantly building supply--can support three unit producing structures (constantly producing) or four?
My common opener (2 gate robo) seems to suggest that three is the way to go. After my first push, I want my expansion up and running. And by that I mean, able to send ~16 probes over to it without completely screwing economy at my first base.
If I build four unit producing structures, I either can't produce from all of them each production cycle, or I have to cut probes. But people have disagreed with me, and said that four UPs are possible on one base. I haven't seen it in my own play, but I am Silver and I could be missing a big piece of the puzzle.
I'm simply skeptical of four UPs on one base, because I've heard Day9 say it a bunch of times, and I've seen a lot of pros (HuK, adelscott, gretorp) follow this principle.
it is possible to have 4 unit producing structures on your base before and keep them constantly producing. You won't be able to tech or expand until after (or sometimes during) your first push where you can usually forgo a production cycle, but should still come out ahead due to pumping out of four structs.
If you're looking for a quick expand or quick tech, you need to drop a Warpgate, and go 2/1. Although, with all the one-base terran builds and zerg quick expand-production, I've never felt comfortable doing a 2/1 anything, just didnt think that i could get enough units out to counter anything. Let alone the 1 Gate builds... I just don't get them at ALL.
it can support 4, but that's without being able to expand and drone up anymore
Ok yeah, that's what I thought. That's why it's basically an all-in, because either you've got an expansion that will take a while to get running, or your one base economy will get left in the dust by good macro pretty quickly.
I'm gonna keep doing what I'm doing. Cuz I like having an expansion after I bust down a door.
Basic rule of thumb. Choose any 4 at once: Gateway, Robo, Starport, Expo, Upgrades, Tech (Eg, robo bay, fleet beacon, templar stuff)
Since you always have a gateway (and should be producing from it), it leaves either 2gate+robo+expand, 3gate ups then tech, 2gate+robo+tech (then swap to expo once you've teched to colossus), or straight 4gate. If you can support more than 4, it means you're not using your stuff to the fullest.
For Protoss, it also depends on what you're using your Chrono-boosts on. You can actually get more units out of 1 Gateway than 3 in the early midgame if you Chrono it constantly.
I think what online interaction annoys me most is when I clear and away win a match and my opponent responds by claiming i'm terrible and that I don't know how to play the game.
I just beat this zerg who lost to my 4gate because they fast expanded and had nothing to defend when i came roaring in with about 15 chargelots from a proxy pylon. then he proceeds to tell me I'm absolutely terrible and that he lost because he assumed i was a better player.
i can't tell if they actually believe that hogwash or if i'm just being trolled but either way, it makes me furious
I think what online interaction annoys me most is when I clear and away win a match and my opponent responds by claiming i'm terrible and that I don't know how to play the game.
I just beat this zerg who lost to my 4gate because they fast expanded and had nothing to defend when i came roaring in with about 15 chargelots from a proxy pylon. then he proceeds to tell me I'm absolutely terrible and that he lost because he assumed i was a better player.
i can't tell if they actually believe that hogwash or if i'm just being trolled but either way, it makes me furious
I think what online interaction annoys me most is when I clear and away win a match and my opponent responds by claiming i'm terrible and that I don't know how to play the game.
I just beat this zerg who lost to my 4gate because they fast expanded and had nothing to defend when i came roaring in with about 15 chargelots from a proxy pylon. then he proceeds to tell me I'm absolutely terrible and that he lost because he assumed i was a better player.
i can't tell if they actually believe that hogwash or if i'm just being trolled but either way, it makes me furious
My favorite games are when both players think that we're each terrible, and that the other one is better.
Oooh, that reminded me of a replay, going to upload...
Joe, what you need to do is stop blaming Blizzard. They have stated there are some players with problems getting promoted. They have not stated what the problem is, or who it applies to. It may very likely not apply to you since you don't have a high win percentage against higher league players. It may even apply to you, but we won't know until Blizzard fixes the problem or tells us more about it.
We also don't know if the number of total games played is a factor, true, but it has been said by Blizzard people that you get checked for promotion after your first 30 games, and then checked again at some unknown rate thereafter.
Billman even went to the trouble to look up your last 30 1v1 games to see where you stand. Indeed everything does point to you belonging in the top of the bronze league.
If SC2Gears linked into SC2Ranks.com data and you had all your 700+ ladder game replays saved, you could see your actual win percentage against each league type. I don't think it does that yet, and again you'd need all your replays for it to anaylze. Something to keep in mind for the future, though, if they implement it.
TL;DR: It may or may not be Blizzard's fault, but you need to stop assuming that it is.
PS: Not hating on you or anything.
I have a hunch that its due to my large sample size (years of debugging complex systems zen). I don't know for sure. Neither do people who are pointing to a fraction of my play as the absolute factor in determining placement. There is no disclosed algorithm, none of us know what the hell its doing, and because of the distribution between leagues, it is fairly easy to infer that it does something different with Bronze (and probably diamond).
All I can do is keep winning games. And wait for the reset.
and stop wasting 4 hours a day where i could be playing instead of bitching on here.
For Protoss, it also depends on what you're using your Chrono-boosts on. You can actually get more units out of 1 Gateway than 3 in the early midgame if you Chrono it constantly.
i'd *love* to see a replay doing this... does he not chrono any probes? or gateway research?
For Protoss, it also depends on what you're using your Chrono-boosts on. You can actually get more units out of 1 Gateway than 3 in the early midgame if you Chrono it constantly.
i'd *love* to see a replay doing this... does he not chrono any probes? or gateway research?
I really don't think there is anything done differently in bronze or diamond. It's simply that you need to a) have 50% or better WLR against higher league opponents and b) also win much more consistently against similar league opponents (you seem to have the second part down).
I don't see why you think it's your number of games played when you don't win consistently against higher league players in the ladder.
It may be fair to say that you are not getting matched with higher league players often enough to win against them, but if you're winning consistently against bronze it will throw you higher league players more often. It's based on your MMR which is not related to WLR, only recent wins and losses (or so it is believed anyway).
Win games? MMR goes up. Lose games? MMR goes down. MMR is how it determines who you match against.
FFing ramps is SO useful. for any toss players who bemoan early marauder aggression, rushing to that first sentry and splitting their army on the ramp solves all your problems. taking out natural expansions while the enemy ramp is FFed is also immensely satisfying. sometimes if their army is lying outside their main, i'll use a warp prism to take a single immortal into the middle of their base and warp in a handful of zealots. at least half of their army will rush into their main to quell the threat, i attack their partial army with my main force, FF the ramp to keep the armies split, and proceed to take out their natural. mmmm tastes good
I think what online interaction annoys me most is when I clear and away win a match and my opponent responds by claiming i'm terrible and that I don't know how to play the game.
I just beat this zerg who lost to my 4gate because they fast expanded and had nothing to defend when i came roaring in with about 15 chargelots from a proxy pylon. then he proceeds to tell me I'm absolutely terrible and that he lost because he assumed i was a better player.
i can't tell if they actually believe that hogwash or if i'm just being trolled but either way, it makes me furious
oh, i love that.
"You're the worst player ever"
-
"and you just lost to me... because..."
or -
you're the cheesiest player i've ever seen! (i did double gas steal the guy, VR and WP drop him...)
FFing ramps is SO useful. for any toss players who bemoan early marauder aggression, rushing to that first sentry and splitting their army on the ramp solves all your problems. taking out natural expansions while the enemy ramp is FFed is also immensely satisfying. sometimes if their army is lying outside their main, i'll use a warp prism to take a single immortal into the middle of their base and warp in a handful of zealots. at least half of their army will rush into their main to quell the threat, i attack their partial army with my main force, FF the ramp to keep the armies split, and proceed to take out their natural. mmmm tastes good
Yeah, sentries are my default second gateway unit nowadays. Even with my sucky bronze skills, Force Field has done great things for me.
Posts
http://www.teamliquid.net/video/userstream.php?user=Cancella
CellaWerra is singing karaoke on his stream. This is amazing.
Any time a Terran goes tanks, I just counter with colossus, blink stalker, mothership and kick the crap out of em.
nah, i enjoy the games. i lose when i'm playing customs where i'm should lose, and try to learn from that, and win the games that I'm supposed to win. It is frustrating when you've dug yourself out of a hole, are in an extreme top position in league, and can't figure out what to do to get out of it. Notice that I haven't been bitching until I've been ranked #1 in my division, sc2ranks is putting me near the top in the division world wide, and i've kept on winning.
I have no idea where i am, or where to go. I mean, i know that i'm sitting in my office, but what path gets me out of this league?
Joe's Stream.
FFBE: 898,311,440
Youtube: http://www.youtube.com/dElementalor
For some reason I expected to play 4 total bo3 matches before the phase ended. Oh well. :?
It was kinda fun and I learned that dumping gas into tech when your opponent is coming at you with an army is fucking stupid.
SC2 NA: exoplasm.519 | PA SC2 Mumble Server | My Website | My Stream
Is general consensus that one base--constantly building workers, and constantly building supply--can support three unit producing structures (constantly producing) or four?
My common opener (2 gate robo) seems to suggest that three is the way to go. After my first push, I want my expansion up and running. And by that I mean, able to send ~16 probes over to it without completely screwing economy at my first base.
If I build four unit producing structures, I either can't produce from all of them each production cycle, or I have to cut probes. But people have disagreed with me, and said that four UPs are possible on one base. I haven't seen it in my own play, but I am Silver and I could be missing a big piece of the puzzle.
I'm simply skeptical of four UPs on one base, because I've heard Day9 say it a bunch of times, and I've seen a lot of pros (HuK, adelscott, gretorp) follow this principle.
Current Song: Bad Romance by Lady Gaga
CellaWerra is a Pro Korean Zerg player..
I have it on now though.
It is a thing.
For Protoss, one base can generally support 3 gateways + tech. So 3-gate robo, 3-gate stargate. That equals 4-structures I guess.
Billman, I quoted you as the wrong guy who did the "sample". sorry.
Joe's Stream.
You can support 4 gate, but it's typically an all-in.
EDIT: Damn, owned by like a million folks.
Ok yeah, that's what I thought. That's why it's basically an all-in, because either you've got an expansion that will take a while to get running, or your one base economy will get left in the dust by good macro pretty quickly.
I'm gonna keep doing what I'm doing. Cuz I like having an expansion after I bust down a door.
We also don't know if the number of total games played is a factor, true, but it has been said by Blizzard people that you get checked for promotion after your first 30 games, and then checked again at some unknown rate thereafter.
Billman even went to the trouble to look up your last 30 1v1 games to see where you stand. Indeed everything does point to you belonging in the top of the bronze league.
If SC2Gears linked into SC2Ranks.com data and you had all your 700+ ladder game replays saved, you could see your actual win percentage against each league type. I don't think it does that yet, and again you'd need all your replays for it to anaylze. Something to keep in mind for the future, though, if they implement it.
TL;DR: It may or may not be Blizzard's fault, but you need to stop assuming that it is.
PS: Not hating on you or anything.
SC2 NA: exoplasm.519 | PA SC2 Mumble Server | My Website | My Stream
it is possible to have 4 unit producing structures on your base before and keep them constantly producing. You won't be able to tech or expand until after (or sometimes during) your first push where you can usually forgo a production cycle, but should still come out ahead due to pumping out of four structs.
If you're looking for a quick expand or quick tech, you need to drop a Warpgate, and go 2/1. Although, with all the one-base terran builds and zerg quick expand-production, I've never felt comfortable doing a 2/1 anything, just didnt think that i could get enough units out to counter anything. Let alone the 1 Gate builds... I just don't get them at ALL.
Joe's Stream.
Oh God.
This stream is fantastic.
Basic rule of thumb. Choose any 4 at once: Gateway, Robo, Starport, Expo, Upgrades, Tech (Eg, robo bay, fleet beacon, templar stuff)
Since you always have a gateway (and should be producing from it), it leaves either 2gate+robo+expand, 3gate ups then tech, 2gate+robo+tech (then swap to expo once you've teched to colossus), or straight 4gate. If you can support more than 4, it means you're not using your stuff to the fullest.
The way Cella sings "Galileo" is the best thing ever.
EDIT: OH GOD THE FALSETTO!
I just beat this zerg who lost to my 4gate because they fast expanded and had nothing to defend when i came roaring in with about 15 chargelots from a proxy pylon. then he proceeds to tell me I'm absolutely terrible and that he lost because he assumed i was a better player.
i can't tell if they actually believe that hogwash or if i'm just being trolled but either way, it makes me furious
They are projecting.
"I suck? NO! YOU SUCK!"
SC2 NA: exoplasm.519 | PA SC2 Mumble Server | My Website | My Stream
My favorite games are when both players think that we're each terrible, and that the other one is better.
Oooh, that reminded me of a replay, going to upload...
I have a hunch that its due to my large sample size (years of debugging complex systems zen). I don't know for sure. Neither do people who are pointing to a fraction of my play as the absolute factor in determining placement. There is no disclosed algorithm, none of us know what the hell its doing, and because of the distribution between leagues, it is fairly easy to infer that it does something different with Bronze (and probably diamond).
All I can do is keep winning games. And wait for the reset.
and stop wasting 4 hours a day where i could be playing instead of bitching on here.
Joe's Stream.
i'd *love* to see a replay doing this... does he not chrono any probes? or gateway research?
any idea where i can find one?
Joe's Stream.
I don't see why you think it's your number of games played when you don't win consistently against higher league players in the ladder.
It may be fair to say that you are not getting matched with higher league players often enough to win against them, but if you're winning consistently against bronze it will throw you higher league players more often. It's based on your MMR which is not related to WLR, only recent wins and losses (or so it is believed anyway).
Win games? MMR goes up. Lose games? MMR goes down. MMR is how it determines who you match against.
SC2 NA: exoplasm.519 | PA SC2 Mumble Server | My Website | My Stream
oh, i love that.
"You're the worst player ever"
-
"and you just lost to me... because..."
or -
you're the cheesiest player i've ever seen! (i did double gas steal the guy, VR and WP drop him...)
Joe's Stream.
Yeah, sentries are my default second gateway unit nowadays. Even with my sucky bronze skills, Force Field has done great things for me.
Nm.
After placing in 3v3 and 4v4, my 1v1 did a faceplant. Feel free to tear me apart.