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Train to beat Joe? Rigorous wrist workouts to open starcraft2.exe?
I think the game should be played in the opposite way of a normal games. Trying to lose while still attacking and scouting. Except when the opponent and scouted and you wanna tech switch, you switch to the worst thing.
that'll be easy for joe, he's a fan of the 'build every tech structure' approach
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KlykaDO you have anySPARE BATTERIES?Registered Userregular
Train to beat Joe? Rigorous wrist workouts to open starcraft2.exe?
I think the game should be played in the opposite way of a normal games. Trying to lose while still attacking and scouting. Except when the opponent and scouted and you wanna tech switch, you switch to the worst thing.
that'll be easy for joe, he's a fan of the 'build every tech structure' approach
Train to beat Joe? Rigorous wrist workouts to open starcraft2.exe?
I think the game should be played in the opposite way of a normal games. Trying to lose while still attacking and scouting. Except when the opponent and scouted and you wanna tech switch, you switch to the worst thing.
that'll be easy for joe, he's a fan of the 'build every tech structure' approach
I'm a fan of the "go fucking kill him" approach.
its back to basics tonight for me fellas, and gals if they're any here...
it seemed like a neat theme, but i don't know how he's going to keep up with new ideas every week. Maybe once a month would have made more sense. Though his Tuesday and Wednesday themes are easily doable every week.
Train to beat Joe? Rigorous wrist workouts to open starcraft2.exe?
I think the game should be played in the opposite way of a normal games. Trying to lose while still attacking and scouting. Except when the opponent and scouted and you wanna tech switch, you switch to the worst thing.
that'll be easy for joe, he's a fan of the 'build every tech structure' approach
only when i'm up several bases :-)
of course, i should just finish the other guy when i'm in that position instead of fucking around.
Best response to cheese is to not panic, macro, and make something to break out. If a dude is makin cannons, he can't make guys. If a dude is proxy reapering you, that's all he has and he has no economy. Turtle up around your probe line, and make the correct thing to kill that dude.
Just last night I played a ZvT on LT. I started 15 Hatch and he responded with a bunker just out of sight. When he scouted my hatch I thought "And now if he is any good he will try to bunker me" but I was dumb and didn't even look for it. Sure enough I see it right when the bunker completes and 2 marines jump into it and start firing away at my just finished Hatch. My pool was up and my response was to make Queens and drones. Used 2 drones to make 2 spine crawlers. when they were completed I built 6 zerglings and used my 2 queens, 2 spine crawlers and 6 zerglings to rape his bunker, 3 marines and a reaper. Got A couple roaches to fend off the inevitable reaper harass follow up and was feeling like a boss.
Then 5 cloaked banshees destroyed me and I felt like a damn retard for 1) Not suspecting it. 2) Responding slowly and 3) If I had been paying attention to the minimap my scout Overseer would have seen 1 leaving his base! Ughhh.
But yea, Had I paniced, over-reacted to the bunker by spamming lings at it I would have lost a lot of larva and minerals and his bunker would have been successful. Since I didnt panic and just let my hatch soak the hits I was able to just pretend he wasn't there and continue to drone up till I had the resources to beat it cleanly.
Do you have the replay? Sounds like an interesting watch.
Funday Monday is good to watch just because of how excited it makes him and how funny it can be. This week suffered from both him being tired from his really long weekend and him picking games that we ultimately didn't care about. That second game was awfully boring, the only funny thing was the barracks being ping ponged at the end.
Newbie Tuesday, is just blegh. I have no real interest in watching it for the content. Take tonights episode for example. The message will be simple, Scout your damn opponent early and often! Oh, he has 5 marines and a Tech lab starport? Welp, better make some anti-air and detection. In fact, I thought about sending in that game I lost to banshees last night, but when I watched the replay it was simply "Oh, I should have Sacced an overlord earlier and prepared" because I definately had the means to be prepared and crush that guy. Then I realized that the only reason I wanted to submit the replay is because I wanted Day[9] to analyze my bunker rush defense and my use of Infestors to defend against the 20+ kill banshees which happened to late. Do any of the Bronze/silver Players feel they gain anything from the Newbie Tuesday?
Friends-day Wednesday is the best though. That episode with Gretorp was so awesome with him explaining his thought process in the game. I feel it really gives a fresh perspective on the game to see how top players think and how they approach the game.
Yea, I'll upload the replay. give me a minute to remote into my house. I may send it into Day[9] last minute too, I mean why not. The timing of the banshees though really messed me up. I should have seen it comming. I mean I even made an overseer before they came but I sent him near the enemy base to spot banshees leaving his base but was literally like 20 seconds to late with it.
So funny how watching that, knowing the outcome and everything I'm like "WHY DIDN'T I DO THIS!?" Like how I saved one of my queens energy to transfuse my spinecrawler, and then FAILED to do that when it was about to die ugh I suck so much lol. hahaha, I was all like "Yea, I'm smart cause I'm saving my energy to transfuse instead of spitting larva yeeeeeea..... FUUUCK it died. OH GOD BANSHEES FUUUUCK"
Funday Monday is good to watch just because of how excited it makes him and how funny it can be. This week suffered from both him being tired from his really long weekend and him picking games that we ultimately didn't care about. That second game was awfully boring, the only funny thing was the barracks being ping ponged at the end.
Newbie Tuesday, is just blegh. I have no real interest in watching it for the content. Take tonights episode for example. The message will be simple, Scout your damn opponent early and often! Oh, he has 5 marines and a Tech lab starport? Welp, better make some anti-air and detection. In fact, I thought about sending in that game I lost to banshees last night, but when I watched the replay it was simply "Oh, I should have Sacced an overlord earlier and prepared" because I definately had the means to be prepared and crush that guy. Then I realized that the only reason I wanted to submit the replay is because I wanted Day[9] to analyze my bunker rush defense and my use of Infestors to defend against the 20+ kill banshees which happened to late. Do any of the Bronze/silver Players feel they gain anything from the Newbie Tuesday?
Friends-day Wednesday is the best though. That episode with Gretorp was so awesome with him explaining his thought process in the game. I feel it really gives a fresh perspective on the game to see how top players think and how they approach the game.
Yea, I'll upload the replay. give me a minute to remote into my house.
i watched the first newbie tuesday, and while it was an hour, the lesson could have been boiled down into 30 seconds or less. can't comment on the second one, as i didnt watch it, i thought it was zerg centric?
there really is enough material out there to have a newbie tuesday an hour a week, and not get monotonous or cover the same things over and over. it would kindof be neat to see him give out assignments and treat it like a college course "SC2 10" where the topics build and if you follow the course, you should be able to pull out into Gold league fairly easily as you should be able to swim after taking swim lessons. Pre-diamond is not as simple as "make probes, make pylons", although that's the foundation and getting that down is a huge, difficult step. There are a ton of other things that can be covered that are not intuitive to people picking up the game, that could be presented in an organized course-like fashion. Heck, he could have a practicum night if someone were to invent "lobbies" for BNet2.0.
i've got some ideas, but i'll hold them until i get out of bronze :-)
Yea, actually I kind of take the Newbie Tuesday comment back. I watched the Drone timing one, and I think it had more than 1 good lesson in it. Showing just how much shit you can get away with, the concept of larva as a resource and rewarding winning engagements by building a lot of drones.
But tonights just seems like it will be a "lets observe how overpowered flying DTs are" night. Drone/Larva spenditure is a kind of advanced theory type of thing that top players just intuitively understand but might not realize they do it so they can gain from it to. Dieing to Banshee's is one of those things that happens once in a while that keeps you honest. You lose to once then never again because it's so easy to prepare for(Except when you play a bunch of games without seeing any and skew your BO to not account for them and then they show up)*.
*Im a noob and die to Banshees like a flailing idiot.
So funny how watching that, knowing the outcome and everything I'm like "WHY DIDN'T I DO THIS!?" Like how I saved one of my queens energy to transfuse my spinecrawler, and then FAILED to do that when it was about to die ugh I suck so much lol. hahaha, I was all like "Yea, I'm smart cause I'm saving my energy to transfuse instead of spitting larva yeeeeeea..... FUUUCK it died. OH GOD BANSHEES FUUUUCK"
Shame about those banshees, but you handled that bunker rush so calmly.
Definitely beats bankrupting yourself by throwing mass lings at the problem, which was my non-solution 2 days ago in that situation.
So I'm brand spankin' new to Starcraft, and I haven't played an RTS since Dune2 on my 386. For me, the Newbie Tuesdays do 2 separate things right:
1, give simple strategies that are easy to remember (make pylons, make probes)
2, give actual numbers that are easy to remember (have ONE gameplan for each matchup, and learn that)
I know there is so much more going on at the higher levels, and yet the Newbie Tuesdays makes me feel like I have something I can constructively work on without just getting crushed because I can't do something complicated the right way.
Very few people use concrete examples, like mineral counts or relative army counts (one Colossus = two phoenix), and I'm sure I can find that stuff somewhere else, but it's awesome to have it presented this way.
I'm hoping tonight he'll cover things like turret placement and counterattack strategies as well as just "make air defense".
Dropping Loads on
Sceptre: Penny Arcade, where you get starcraft AND marriage advice.
3clipse: The key to any successful marriage is a good mid-game transition.
it seemed like a neat theme, but i don't know how he's going to keep up with new ideas every week. Maybe once a month would have made more sense. Though his Tuesday and Wednesday themes are easily doable every week.
it seemed like a neat theme, but i don't know how he's going to keep up with new ideas every week. Maybe once a month would have made more sense. Though his Tuesday and Wednesday themes are easily doable every week.
Is your imagination really that bad?
The first 3 Funday Mondays set a tone that he had no intention of actually setting. It was easy to see No Queens, Carriers First, and Gimped Terrans, as a way to say "setting these limitations for yourself will lead to improved strategy development and more tactical play." I could see that. However, it was pretty clear after the next one that the actual theme was, "Go have some fun! P.S., lose your whole fuckin' base." There's a lot more options available for that, and I think he'll keep coming up with fun stuff.
Dropping Loads on
Sceptre: Penny Arcade, where you get starcraft AND marriage advice.
3clipse: The key to any successful marriage is a good mid-game transition.
it seemed like a neat theme, but i don't know how he's going to keep up with new ideas every week. Maybe once a month would have made more sense. Though his Tuesday and Wednesday themes are easily doable every week.
Is your imagination really that bad?
The first 3 Funday Mondays set a tone that he had no intention of actually setting. It was easy to see No Queens, Carriers First, and Gimped Terrans, as a way to say "setting these limitations for yourself will lead to improved strategy development and more tactical play." I could see that. However, it was pretty clear after the next one that the actual theme was, "Go have some fun! P.S., lose your whole fuckin' base." There's a lot more options available for that, and I think he'll keep coming up with fun stuff.
Exactly, the possibilities are endless. These aren't legit strategies and such, just crazy wacky shit. I mean even with the no queens thing, thats a terrible fucking idea, but that isnt the point. It was to try crazy new shit.
edit: also I really have no idea how you can see no queens as "setting these limitations for yourself will lead to improved strategy development and more tactical play", You probably dont play zerg right?
2, give actual numbers that are easy to remember (have ONE gameplan for each matchup, and learn that)
I know there is so much more going on at the higher levels, and yet the Newbie Tuesdays makes me feel like I have something I can constructively work on without just getting crushed because I can't do something complicated the right way.
This is a good place to start and too many players that want to get better dart back and forth between multiple "strategies" they have without having at least 1 rock solid strategy that they actually work on understanding. If you can't do 1 actual decent strat without mistakes I don't see why those who want to get better, eg their goal is to move up in divisions, are basically hindering their process by fluttering around between random crap they've seen or dream up on the spot.
it seemed like a neat theme, but i don't know how he's going to keep up with new ideas every week. Maybe once a month would have made more sense. Though his Tuesday and Wednesday themes are easily doable every week.
Is your imagination really that bad?
No, my imagination isnt that bad, its just that coming up with odd restrictions or challenges that actually make sense to learning the game is really tough, and there are more crappy ideas than good ones. Tuesdays and Wednesdays are much easier - he should be able to line up guests from now until forever, and keep covering newbie areas, because of the complexity of the game practically writes itself.
The Monday challenges are going to be the hardest for him to keep creating. This week's is a huge dropoff from last, and the one before that.
2, give actual numbers that are easy to remember (have ONE gameplan for each matchup, and learn that)
I know there is so much more going on at the higher levels, and yet the Newbie Tuesdays makes me feel like I have something I can constructively work on without just getting crushed because I can't do something complicated the right way.
This is a good place to start and too many players that want to get better dart back and forth between multiple "strategies" they have without having at least 1 rock solid strategy that they actually work on understanding. If you can't do 1 actual decent strat without mistakes I don't see why those who want to get better, eg their goal is to move up in divisions, are basically hindering their process by fluttering around between random crap they've seen or dream up on the spot.
It has less to do with trying out different strategies, and more to do with their mechanics suck. They think strategies are the key to winning, when in reality its largely just mechanics that are the key to winning.
it seemed like a neat theme, but i don't know how he's going to keep up with new ideas every week. Maybe once a month would have made more sense. Though his Tuesday and Wednesday themes are easily doable every week.
Is your imagination really that bad?
No, my imagination isnt that bad, its just that coming up with odd restrictions or challenges that actually make sense to learning the game is really tough, and there are more crappy ideas than good ones. Tuesdays and Wednesdays are much easier - he should be able to line up guests from now until forever, and keep covering newbie areas, because of the complexity of the game practically writes itself.
The Monday challenges are going to be the hardest for him to keep creating. This week's is a huge dropoff from last, and the one before that.
Funday Monday isnt designed to help you better learn the game....You are missing the whole damn point Joe
edit: also I really have no idea how you can see no queens as "setting these limitations for yourself will lead to improved strategy development and more tactical play", You probably dont play zerg right?
Nah, I haven't played any Zerg. I've hardly played at all. What I meant was, if you choose to not play with queens, it gives you a chance to see if there is something you were missing when you were so focused on queens. Then when you play a normal game, you'll remember to do both things. I didn't mean to imply you'd create a whole new no-queen metagame. And I could still be wrong about learning any lessons at all, but it seemed at first like that was why he chose that limitation.
Dropping Loads on
Sceptre: Penny Arcade, where you get starcraft AND marriage advice.
3clipse: The key to any successful marriage is a good mid-game transition.
2, give actual numbers that are easy to remember (have ONE gameplan for each matchup, and learn that)
I know there is so much more going on at the higher levels, and yet the Newbie Tuesdays makes me feel like I have something I can constructively work on without just getting crushed because I can't do something complicated the right way.
This is a good place to start and too many players that want to get better dart back and forth between multiple "strategies" they have without having at least 1 rock solid strategy that they actually work on understanding. If you can't do 1 actual decent strat without mistakes I don't see why those who want to get better, eg their goal is to move up in divisions, are basically hindering their process by fluttering around between random crap they've seen or dream up on the spot.
It has less to do with trying out different strategies, and more to do with their mechanics suck. They think strategies are the key to winning, when in reality its largely just mechanics that are the key to winning.
Yes, exactly, to both points. My mechanics suck. If I didn't admit that, I'd keep swapping strategies. Since I know my mechanic sucks, I will continue to 4 gate until I can actually get all 4 gates up and running before the 8 minute mark.
Yup, I'm that bad, which is why I watch Day9 and practice .
Dropping Loads on
Sceptre: Penny Arcade, where you get starcraft AND marriage advice.
3clipse: The key to any successful marriage is a good mid-game transition.
edit: also I really have no idea how you can see no queens as "setting these limitations for yourself will lead to improved strategy development and more tactical play", You probably dont play zerg right?
Nah, I haven't played any Zerg. I've hardly played at all. What I meant was, if you choose to not play with queens, it gives you a chance to see if there is something you were missing when you were so focused on queens. Then when you play a normal game, you'll remember to do both things. I didn't mean to imply you'd create a whole new no-queen metagame. And I could still be wrong about learning any lessons at all, but it seemed at first like that was why he chose that limitation.
He does want you to question decisions you make automatically yes, but in this case the automatic decision of making a queen turns out to be pretty dead on.
2, give actual numbers that are easy to remember (have ONE gameplan for each matchup, and learn that)
I know there is so much more going on at the higher levels, and yet the Newbie Tuesdays makes me feel like I have something I can constructively work on without just getting crushed because I can't do something complicated the right way.
This is a good place to start and too many players that want to get better dart back and forth between multiple "strategies" they have without having at least 1 rock solid strategy that they actually work on understanding. If you can't do 1 actual decent strat without mistakes I don't see why those who want to get better, eg their goal is to move up in divisions, are basically hindering their process by fluttering around between random crap they've seen or dream up on the spot.
It has less to do with trying out different strategies, and more to do with their mechanics suck. They think strategies are the key to winning, when in reality its largely just mechanics that are the key to winning.
Yes, exactly, to both points. My mechanics suck. If I didn't admit that, I'd keep swapping strategies. Since I know my mechanic sucks, I will continue to 4 gate until I can actually get all 4 gates up and running before the 8 minute mark.
Yup, I'm that bad, which is why I watch Day9 and practice .
No my point is, you can keep swapping strategies and work on your mechanics at the same time.
2, give actual numbers that are easy to remember (have ONE gameplan for each matchup, and learn that)
I know there is so much more going on at the higher levels, and yet the Newbie Tuesdays makes me feel like I have something I can constructively work on without just getting crushed because I can't do something complicated the right way.
This is a good place to start and too many players that want to get better dart back and forth between multiple "strategies" they have without having at least 1 rock solid strategy that they actually work on understanding. If you can't do 1 actual decent strat without mistakes I don't see why those who want to get better, eg their goal is to move up in divisions, are basically hindering their process by fluttering around between random crap they've seen or dream up on the spot.
It has less to do with trying out different strategies, and more to do with their mechanics suck. They think strategies are the key to winning, when in reality its largely just mechanics that are the key to winning.
The mechanics of the game are the foundation of it, and without a good foundation, you really can't build something solid on top. No matter how good your plans are. The mechanics are also fairly complex, and non-intuitive, so it isn't easy to get them down, while trying to get a good build order or go for some creative strat is more interesting, it isn't where the most rewards are.
Got to have a good foundation before building the house. We'll work on the 15' high ceilings in your great room and that kick ass master bed/bath with sauna and jacuzzi later, after we have a solid foundation that won't move for several hundred years.
and yes, i'm still working on my foundation. sometimes it sets right, sometimes it doesn't. better than when i wasnt pouring one in at all.
No my point is, you can keep swapping strategies and work on your mechanics at the same time.
As someone who is willing to say I suck as much as I do, I don't think that's actually true at my level. I don't even know what each hotkey is for each building. I don't know how long a Phoenix takes to build compared to a Colossus. I'm going to stick w/ 4gate and learn all those timings first.
Day9 once compared playing Starcraft to being a musician, and I find that so fitting.. I COULD keep switching between 3 different songs, and playing each one badly, or I could play one song and keep practicing until I get it right. For a lot of people, the second method will help you get better faster and will also be more fun to do.
To be fair, I have to learn 3 strategies at once anyway, one for each matchup (PvZ, PvT, PvP), so if I tried to learn 3 for each matchup I'd be completely overwhelmed.
Dropping Loads on
Sceptre: Penny Arcade, where you get starcraft AND marriage advice.
3clipse: The key to any successful marriage is a good mid-game transition.
it seemed like a neat theme, but i don't know how he's going to keep up with new ideas every week. Maybe once a month would have made more sense. Though his Tuesday and Wednesday themes are easily doable every week.
Is your imagination really that bad?
No, my imagination isnt that bad, its just that coming up with odd restrictions or challenges that actually make sense to learning the game is really tough, and there are more crappy ideas than good ones. Tuesdays and Wednesdays are much easier - he should be able to line up guests from now until forever, and keep covering newbie areas, because of the complexity of the game practically writes itself.
The Monday challenges are going to be the hardest for him to keep creating. This week's is a huge dropoff from last, and the one before that.
Funday Monday isnt designed to help you better learn the game....You are missing the whole damn point Joe
i'll leave it at - i disagree, you take from it what you want. I saw some eye-opening revelations in the first three...
2, give actual numbers that are easy to remember (have ONE gameplan for each matchup, and learn that)
I know there is so much more going on at the higher levels, and yet the Newbie Tuesdays makes me feel like I have something I can constructively work on without just getting crushed because I can't do something complicated the right way.
This is a good place to start and too many players that want to get better dart back and forth between multiple "strategies" they have without having at least 1 rock solid strategy that they actually work on understanding. If you can't do 1 actual decent strat without mistakes I don't see why those who want to get better, eg their goal is to move up in divisions, are basically hindering their process by fluttering around between random crap they've seen or dream up on the spot.
It has less to do with trying out different strategies, and more to do with their mechanics suck. They think strategies are the key to winning, when in reality its largely just mechanics that are the key to winning.
The mechanics of the game are the foundation of it, and without a good foundation, you really can't build something solid on top. No matter how good your plans are. The mechanics are also fairly complex, and non-intuitive, so it isn't easy to get them down, while trying to get a good build order or go for some creative strat is more interesting, it isn't where the most rewards are.
Got to have a good foundation before building the house. We'll work on the 15' high ceilings in your great room and that kick ass master bed/bath with sauna and jacuzzi later, after we have a solid foundation that won't move for several hundred years.
and yes, i'm still working on my foundation. sometimes it sets right, sometimes it doesn't. better than when i wasnt pouring one in at all.
Yeah but while you are pouring that foundation you can build a sweet bed that you will later put in the house, or a sweet painting etc.
Constantly building probes is the single most important thing that changed me from a Silverish player to a Platinumish player. Using Protoss Warpgates taught me better micro ability just because I CAN'T queue units.
2, give actual numbers that are easy to remember (have ONE gameplan for each matchup, and learn that)
I know there is so much more going on at the higher levels, and yet the Newbie Tuesdays makes me feel like I have something I can constructively work on without just getting crushed because I can't do something complicated the right way.
This is a good place to start and too many players that want to get better dart back and forth between multiple "strategies" they have without having at least 1 rock solid strategy that they actually work on understanding. If you can't do 1 actual decent strat without mistakes I don't see why those who want to get better, eg their goal is to move up in divisions, are basically hindering their process by fluttering around between random crap they've seen or dream up on the spot.
It has less to do with trying out different strategies, and more to do with their mechanics suck. They think strategies are the key to winning, when in reality its largely just mechanics that are the key to winning.
Yes, exactly, to both points. My mechanics suck. If I didn't admit that, I'd keep swapping strategies. Since I know my mechanic sucks, I will continue to 4 gate until I can actually get all 4 gates up and running before the 8 minute mark.
Yup, I'm that bad, which is why I watch Day9 and practice .
Arcanis - we have a potential dojo guy here.
No offense intended, but if you're looking at getting 4 gate done by 8 min, you're off the mark by several minutes. When people here first started helping me, I was given a goal of building an ARMY in 8 minutes, and moving out with that. It often won on first push. I exclusively 4gated.
2, give actual numbers that are easy to remember (have ONE gameplan for each matchup, and learn that)
I know there is so much more going on at the higher levels, and yet the Newbie Tuesdays makes me feel like I have something I can constructively work on without just getting crushed because I can't do something complicated the right way.
This is a good place to start and too many players that want to get better dart back and forth between multiple "strategies" they have without having at least 1 rock solid strategy that they actually work on understanding. If you can't do 1 actual decent strat without mistakes I don't see why those who want to get better, eg their goal is to move up in divisions, are basically hindering their process by fluttering around between random crap they've seen or dream up on the spot.
It has less to do with trying out different strategies, and more to do with their mechanics suck. They think strategies are the key to winning, when in reality its largely just mechanics that are the key to winning.
Yes, exactly, to both points. My mechanics suck. If I didn't admit that, I'd keep swapping strategies. Since I know my mechanic sucks, I will continue to 4 gate until I can actually get all 4 gates up and running before the 8 minute mark.
Yup, I'm that bad, which is why I watch Day9 and practice .
No my point is, you can keep swapping strategies and work on your mechanics at the same time.
You really can't. The whole point of a strategy is to find something and stick with it so you can get better.
So your hands automatically make a probe as soon as you need to, and you automatically make an expo as soon as you need to, and you automatically make your gateways as soon as you're able to, etc. Without your brain realizing it, your hands play the game for you and get you to 50 food with an advantage.
If you're constantly swapping strategies, you can't do that. You don't automatically take your expo, because you're not doing the same strategy and you haven't learned it yet. You don't know when (or if) you should cut workers. All the things that make your mechanics good, you can't learn until you've learned your strategy. Without knowing a strategy, your mechanics can never crest above a certain level. And contstantly swapping strategies mean you never get to truly learn any one strategy.
I want to improve but I also want to have fun. My mechanics arent great, as Ill still get pwned by the occasional plat in customs (ive been too scared to latter again for months now!!) but i can handle executing a quick 8-10 minute strat relatively flawlessly. Its once I have to manage multiple bases that things get harry.
Point is, theory-crafting and strat switching is fun.
Also, if I just went with ONE strat, I would get beat, a lot. You cant just say "im going to build gateway units" and hope to win more then 50% of the time, because even if your execution is perfect, the guy who gets a few collosi or DTs or what not is going to beat you as long as his execution is decent.
No offense intended, but if you're looking at getting 4 gate done by 8 min, you're off the mark by several minutes. When people here first started helping me, I was given a goal of building an ARMY in 8 minutes, and moving out with that. It often won on first push. I exclusively 4gated.
Can you post a replay?
Thanks so much for offering to help, but I literally bought this game a week ago and haven't played an RTS game in 16 years. I'll send in replays soon enough, but for now I know I just need to work on my timing and knowing my hotkeys. I'm pretty sure I can get to that point with just repetition. I also don't get the chance to play every day, which slows me down.
Edit: Disrupter, you are in Platinum. If you win 50% of the time by only making gateway units, that actually seems on the high side. I wouldn't win a single ladder game right now, so why worry about what the right transition is? The idea isn't to do only gateway units at the upper echelons of the game, it's to get your hands used to playing (i.e. learning the instrument) so you'll do better when you finally get to gold-platinum and then try to improvise.
Dropping Loads on
Sceptre: Penny Arcade, where you get starcraft AND marriage advice.
3clipse: The key to any successful marriage is a good mid-game transition.
2, give actual numbers that are easy to remember (have ONE gameplan for each matchup, and learn that)
I know there is so much more going on at the higher levels, and yet the Newbie Tuesdays makes me feel like I have something I can constructively work on without just getting crushed because I can't do something complicated the right way.
This is a good place to start and too many players that want to get better dart back and forth between multiple "strategies" they have without having at least 1 rock solid strategy that they actually work on understanding. If you can't do 1 actual decent strat without mistakes I don't see why those who want to get better, eg their goal is to move up in divisions, are basically hindering their process by fluttering around between random crap they've seen or dream up on the spot.
It has less to do with trying out different strategies, and more to do with their mechanics suck. They think strategies are the key to winning, when in reality its largely just mechanics that are the key to winning.
The mechanics of the game are the foundation of it, and without a good foundation, you really can't build something solid on top. No matter how good your plans are. The mechanics are also fairly complex, and non-intuitive, so it isn't easy to get them down, while trying to get a good build order or go for some creative strat is more interesting, it isn't where the most rewards are.
Got to have a good foundation before building the house. We'll work on the 15' high ceilings in your great room and that kick ass master bed/bath with sauna and jacuzzi later, after we have a solid foundation that won't move for several hundred years.
and yes, i'm still working on my foundation. sometimes it sets right, sometimes it doesn't. better than when i wasnt pouring one in at all.
Yeah but while you are pouring that foundation you can build a sweet bed that you will later put in the house, or a sweet painting etc.
Also house analogies suck.
if you were to take the music analogy, I think that Day[9] got it a little off. Instead of trying to learn a song well, or three poorly at once, you should learn how to play the instrument completely, and then you can play any song you'd like.
Once you can master the basics, pylons and probes, you can actually start playing the game correctly, no matter what strat you use. At lower levels, it doesnt matter what strat you're using, just that you're playing the game correctly.
you know I'm really disappointed in broodlords. On paper they look okay, but they just don't have the oomph to get anything done except maybe blocking off units with broodlings. It comes down to them only doing 20 damage every 2.5 seconds(one of the lowest dps units in the entire game) while the protoss and terran units do obscene aoe of death attacks. just compare it to a thor's 60 damage every 1.2 seconds. then to make things worse they move even slower than bcs and carriers, because they are so much better right? you might as well forget trying to micro out of storms.
Jars on
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HonkHonk is this poster.Registered User, __BANNED USERSregular
edited October 2010
All I know about brood lords is that they outrange missile turrets, because they were a bitch in that single player level near the end.
I have never ever ever seen anyone use them in multi.
Posts
that'll be easy for joe, he's a fan of the 'build every tech structure' approach
I'm a fan of the "go fucking kill him" approach.
its back to basics tonight for me fellas, and gals if they're any here...
i might have to break out the timer again.
Joe's Stream.
it seemed like a neat theme, but i don't know how he's going to keep up with new ideas every week. Maybe once a month would have made more sense. Though his Tuesday and Wednesday themes are easily doable every week.
Joe's Stream.
only when i'm up several bases :-)
of course, i should just finish the other guy when i'm in that position instead of fucking around.
Joe's Stream.
if there's money on this, there better be a winner's and loser's cut of the vig.
Joe's Stream.
Do you have the replay? Sounds like an interesting watch.
Also this is my daily tournament post: http://challonge.com/tournament/signup/86d8cjts2b
Newbie Tuesday, is just blegh. I have no real interest in watching it for the content. Take tonights episode for example. The message will be simple, Scout your damn opponent early and often! Oh, he has 5 marines and a Tech lab starport? Welp, better make some anti-air and detection. In fact, I thought about sending in that game I lost to banshees last night, but when I watched the replay it was simply "Oh, I should have Sacced an overlord earlier and prepared" because I definately had the means to be prepared and crush that guy. Then I realized that the only reason I wanted to submit the replay is because I wanted Day[9] to analyze my bunker rush defense and my use of Infestors to defend against the 20+ kill banshees which happened to late. Do any of the Bronze/silver Players feel they gain anything from the Newbie Tuesday?
Friends-day Wednesday is the best though. That episode with Gretorp was so awesome with him explaining his thought process in the game. I feel it really gives a fresh perspective on the game to see how top players think and how they approach the game.
Yea, I'll upload the replay. give me a minute to remote into my house. I may send it into Day[9] last minute too, I mean why not. The timing of the banshees though really messed me up. I should have seen it comming. I mean I even made an overseer before they came but I sent him near the enemy base to spot banshees leaving his base but was literally like 20 seconds to late with it.
So funny how watching that, knowing the outcome and everything I'm like "WHY DIDN'T I DO THIS!?" Like how I saved one of my queens energy to transfuse my spinecrawler, and then FAILED to do that when it was about to die ugh I suck so much lol. hahaha, I was all like "Yea, I'm smart cause I'm saving my energy to transfuse instead of spitting larva yeeeeeea..... FUUUCK it died. OH GOD BANSHEES FUUUUCK"
i watched the first newbie tuesday, and while it was an hour, the lesson could have been boiled down into 30 seconds or less. can't comment on the second one, as i didnt watch it, i thought it was zerg centric?
there really is enough material out there to have a newbie tuesday an hour a week, and not get monotonous or cover the same things over and over. it would kindof be neat to see him give out assignments and treat it like a college course "SC2 10" where the topics build and if you follow the course, you should be able to pull out into Gold league fairly easily as you should be able to swim after taking swim lessons. Pre-diamond is not as simple as "make probes, make pylons", although that's the foundation and getting that down is a huge, difficult step. There are a ton of other things that can be covered that are not intuitive to people picking up the game, that could be presented in an organized course-like fashion. Heck, he could have a practicum night if someone were to invent "lobbies" for BNet2.0.
i've got some ideas, but i'll hold them until i get out of bronze :-)
Joe's Stream.
But tonights just seems like it will be a "lets observe how overpowered flying DTs are" night. Drone/Larva spenditure is a kind of advanced theory type of thing that top players just intuitively understand but might not realize they do it so they can gain from it to. Dieing to Banshee's is one of those things that happens once in a while that keeps you honest. You lose to once then never again because it's so easy to prepare for(Except when you play a bunch of games without seeing any and skew your BO to not account for them and then they show up)*.
*Im a noob and die to Banshees like a flailing idiot.
Shame about those banshees, but you handled that bunker rush so calmly.
Definitely beats bankrupting yourself by throwing mass lings at the problem, which was my non-solution 2 days ago in that situation.
1, give simple strategies that are easy to remember (make pylons, make probes)
2, give actual numbers that are easy to remember (have ONE gameplan for each matchup, and learn that)
I know there is so much more going on at the higher levels, and yet the Newbie Tuesdays makes me feel like I have something I can constructively work on without just getting crushed because I can't do something complicated the right way.
Very few people use concrete examples, like mineral counts or relative army counts (one Colossus = two phoenix), and I'm sure I can find that stuff somewhere else, but it's awesome to have it presented this way.
I'm hoping tonight he'll cover things like turret placement and counterattack strategies as well as just "make air defense".
3clipse: The key to any successful marriage is a good mid-game transition.
Although I am a T.
Is your imagination really that bad?
The first 3 Funday Mondays set a tone that he had no intention of actually setting. It was easy to see No Queens, Carriers First, and Gimped Terrans, as a way to say "setting these limitations for yourself will lead to improved strategy development and more tactical play." I could see that. However, it was pretty clear after the next one that the actual theme was, "Go have some fun! P.S., lose your whole fuckin' base." There's a lot more options available for that, and I think he'll keep coming up with fun stuff.
3clipse: The key to any successful marriage is a good mid-game transition.
orly? :P
Exactly, the possibilities are endless. These aren't legit strategies and such, just crazy wacky shit. I mean even with the no queens thing, thats a terrible fucking idea, but that isnt the point. It was to try crazy new shit.
edit: also I really have no idea how you can see no queens as "setting these limitations for yourself will lead to improved strategy development and more tactical play", You probably dont play zerg right?
This is a good place to start and too many players that want to get better dart back and forth between multiple "strategies" they have without having at least 1 rock solid strategy that they actually work on understanding. If you can't do 1 actual decent strat without mistakes I don't see why those who want to get better, eg their goal is to move up in divisions, are basically hindering their process by fluttering around between random crap they've seen or dream up on the spot.
No, my imagination isnt that bad, its just that coming up with odd restrictions or challenges that actually make sense to learning the game is really tough, and there are more crappy ideas than good ones. Tuesdays and Wednesdays are much easier - he should be able to line up guests from now until forever, and keep covering newbie areas, because of the complexity of the game practically writes itself.
The Monday challenges are going to be the hardest for him to keep creating. This week's is a huge dropoff from last, and the one before that.
Joe's Stream.
It has less to do with trying out different strategies, and more to do with their mechanics suck. They think strategies are the key to winning, when in reality its largely just mechanics that are the key to winning.
Funday Monday isnt designed to help you better learn the game....You are missing the whole damn point Joe
Nah, I haven't played any Zerg. I've hardly played at all. What I meant was, if you choose to not play with queens, it gives you a chance to see if there is something you were missing when you were so focused on queens. Then when you play a normal game, you'll remember to do both things. I didn't mean to imply you'd create a whole new no-queen metagame. And I could still be wrong about learning any lessons at all, but it seemed at first like that was why he chose that limitation.
3clipse: The key to any successful marriage is a good mid-game transition.
Yes, exactly, to both points. My mechanics suck. If I didn't admit that, I'd keep swapping strategies. Since I know my mechanic sucks, I will continue to 4 gate until I can actually get all 4 gates up and running before the 8 minute mark.
Yup, I'm that bad, which is why I watch Day9 and practice
3clipse: The key to any successful marriage is a good mid-game transition.
He does want you to question decisions you make automatically yes, but in this case the automatic decision of making a queen turns out to be pretty dead on.
No my point is, you can keep swapping strategies and work on your mechanics at the same time.
The mechanics of the game are the foundation of it, and without a good foundation, you really can't build something solid on top. No matter how good your plans are. The mechanics are also fairly complex, and non-intuitive, so it isn't easy to get them down, while trying to get a good build order or go for some creative strat is more interesting, it isn't where the most rewards are.
Got to have a good foundation before building the house. We'll work on the 15' high ceilings in your great room and that kick ass master bed/bath with sauna and jacuzzi later, after we have a solid foundation that won't move for several hundred years.
and yes, i'm still working on my foundation. sometimes it sets right, sometimes it doesn't. better than when i wasnt pouring one in at all.
Joe's Stream.
As someone who is willing to say I suck as much as I do, I don't think that's actually true at my level. I don't even know what each hotkey is for each building. I don't know how long a Phoenix takes to build compared to a Colossus. I'm going to stick w/ 4gate and learn all those timings first.
Day9 once compared playing Starcraft to being a musician, and I find that so fitting.. I COULD keep switching between 3 different songs, and playing each one badly, or I could play one song and keep practicing until I get it right. For a lot of people, the second method will help you get better faster and will also be more fun to do.
To be fair, I have to learn 3 strategies at once anyway, one for each matchup (PvZ, PvT, PvP), so if I tried to learn 3 for each matchup I'd be completely overwhelmed.
3clipse: The key to any successful marriage is a good mid-game transition.
i'll leave it at - i disagree, you take from it what you want. I saw some eye-opening revelations in the first three...
Joe's Stream.
Yeah but while you are pouring that foundation you can build a sweet bed that you will later put in the house, or a sweet painting etc.
Also house analogies suck.
Arcanis - we have a potential dojo guy here.
No offense intended, but if you're looking at getting 4 gate done by 8 min, you're off the mark by several minutes. When people here first started helping me, I was given a goal of building an ARMY in 8 minutes, and moving out with that. It often won on first push. I exclusively 4gated.
Can you post a replay?
Joe's Stream.
You really can't. The whole point of a strategy is to find something and stick with it so you can get better.
So your hands automatically make a probe as soon as you need to, and you automatically make an expo as soon as you need to, and you automatically make your gateways as soon as you're able to, etc. Without your brain realizing it, your hands play the game for you and get you to 50 food with an advantage.
If you're constantly swapping strategies, you can't do that. You don't automatically take your expo, because you're not doing the same strategy and you haven't learned it yet. You don't know when (or if) you should cut workers. All the things that make your mechanics good, you can't learn until you've learned your strategy. Without knowing a strategy, your mechanics can never crest above a certain level. And contstantly swapping strategies mean you never get to truly learn any one strategy.
I want to improve but I also want to have fun. My mechanics arent great, as Ill still get pwned by the occasional plat in customs (ive been too scared to latter again for months now!!) but i can handle executing a quick 8-10 minute strat relatively flawlessly. Its once I have to manage multiple bases that things get harry.
Point is, theory-crafting and strat switching is fun.
Also, if I just went with ONE strat, I would get beat, a lot. You cant just say "im going to build gateway units" and hope to win more then 50% of the time, because even if your execution is perfect, the guy who gets a few collosi or DTs or what not is going to beat you as long as his execution is decent.
Thanks so much for offering to help, but I literally bought this game a week ago and haven't played an RTS game in 16 years. I'll send in replays soon enough, but for now I know I just need to work on my timing and knowing my hotkeys. I'm pretty sure I can get to that point with just repetition. I also don't get the chance to play every day, which slows me down.
Edit: Disrupter, you are in Platinum. If you win 50% of the time by only making gateway units, that actually seems on the high side. I wouldn't win a single ladder game right now, so why worry about what the right transition is? The idea isn't to do only gateway units at the upper echelons of the game, it's to get your hands used to playing (i.e. learning the instrument) so you'll do better when you finally get to gold-platinum and then try to improvise.
3clipse: The key to any successful marriage is a good mid-game transition.
if you were to take the music analogy, I think that Day[9] got it a little off. Instead of trying to learn a song well, or three poorly at once, you should learn how to play the instrument completely, and then you can play any song you'd like.
Once you can master the basics, pylons and probes, you can actually start playing the game correctly, no matter what strat you use. At lower levels, it doesnt matter what strat you're using, just that you're playing the game correctly.
Joe's Stream.
I have never ever ever seen anyone use them in multi.
Ultras seem more useful in pretty much any other situation.