Speaking from a Zerg perspective; Thors beat every unit we have for cost.
I was tempted to say Collossus but I don't really consider them OP since they can be so totally countered by air.
i dont think that's actually true, is it? zerglings will defeat a thor for cost, even if you just straight exchange the gas for mins, which you shouldnt do because gas is so much more valuable.
Mineral for Mineral (which is terrible, i know) I'm pretty sure a Thor will beat Zerglings thanks to that attack speed buff the Thor got back in beta.
Every other unit is beaten gas for gas, by the Thor
The biggest thing I noticed was when they reduced the size. The number of lings able to attack a thor at the same time is a lot smaller now. Makes a pretty big difference.
What they need is something to make up for their cost. I don't think their damage output -- 30% more than a stimmed marine that costs no gas and half minerals -- makes up for their drawbacks. Hydras either need to be a little scarier or they need to have some more survivability. Making them a little less dangerous and making them cost less gas would be cool but the roach and baneling kind of cover 25 gas units. Hmm. They definitely don't need much. Maybe have the range upgrade do something in addition, or give them a burrow-only ability
i think they need a speed upgrade off creep. also if their range upgrade was to 7 and not 6, that would be worth it.
dont marauders have like 7 range without any upgrades? why?
Ketherial on
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HonkHonk is this poster.Registered User, __BANNED USERSregular
edited October 2010
And I tried a neat thing against an opponent who heavily turreted. He built so many turrets after I sent a banshee early on, so I sacrificed a medivac dropping two marauders in, then they stimmed and ripped apart 3 turrets. Then cloaked banshees fly in.
For Protoss it's the Stalker, the Stalker is good against everything.
I have no idea what it is for Terran. Marauders maybe, but they can't shoot air, so they aren't good against "everything".
e: And they didn't say "game changer" they said "good against everything", very specific wording.
i wouldn't say the stalker is "good" against everything. they're "ok" against everything but everything is either ok against them or rip them to shreds.
unless you have 40 stalkers, and 2-4 collosus to back them up. they get shit DONE then....
I don't know what you guys are smoking, hydras are pretty sweet...doubly so with backup. I get rolled all the time by pure hydra/roach (no corrupters for my colossi). It's like, sure my colossi fry a ton of hydras, but holy shit I just lost most my army...and oh god they just keep coming ...
you get rolled by hydra/roach going stalker/colossus? o_O total opposite of my experience
please PLEASE up a replay, I'd like to see how I can get hydra/roach to work
What they need is something to make up for their cost. I don't think their damage output -- 30% more than a stimmed marine that costs no gas and half minerals -- makes up for their drawbacks. Hydras either need to be a little scarier or they need to have some more survivability. Making them a little less dangerous and making them cost less gas would be cool but the roach and baneling kind of cover 25 gas units. Hmm. They definitely don't need much. Maybe have the range upgrade do something in addition, or give them a burrow-only ability
i think they need a speed upgrade off creep. also if their range upgrade was to 7 and not 6, that would be worth it.
dont marauders have like 7 range without any upgrades? why?
Marauders are 6 range, marines are 5, hydras are 5/6
I like the idea of a range boost. so hydras would start at 6 and go to 7. so upgraded hydras can beat unupgraded colossi with greater ease. plus they start outranging hellions at 6 instead of equal to them at 5, and upgraded they'd be equal range (7) to tank mode siege tanks.
also like the idea of a speed boost. hydras off creep are the same speed as unstimmed marines but hydras feel SOOOO SLOOOW. any random players know why hydras feel so slow and marines don't? are marines just always stimmed?
alternately revert the earlier nerfs: bring them back to 90 life up from 80 and buff their attack cooldown to .75 from .83
What is really lame about broodlords, is that you need to have ground and air upgrades for them to be truly effective. I shouldn't have to get 6 attack upgrades for one unit period.
or the unit would have to be really good. like that fun slightly OP unit zerg still lacks. I'm not saying make that unit the brolord, but if it was at least the upgrade structure would make sense
and zerglings needs cliffjumping ever so badly
what do you consider to be the toss OP unit, if u dont mind me askin?
also, how do zerg players counter HTs? just bigger numbers in general? ultras?
It was talked about during one of the latest State of the Game podcasts were the guests were talking about how Zerg doesn't have that one unit that is good against everything which Terrans and Protoss have to an extent, however, they didn't mention what those units are for the other races (if I had to guess the Terran unit would be the Thor and the Protoss unit would be...I have no idea, Voidray maybe?)
voidrays win you the game if there isnt a counter near by. they can go with an army, but most people will just fire one down if it isnt charged....
And I tried a neat thing against an opponent who heavily turreted. He built so many turrets after I sent a banshee early on, so I sacrificed a medivac dropping two marauders in, then they stimmed and ripped apart 3 turrets. Then cloaked banshees fly in.
Why would you sacrifice a medivac to only drop 2 marauders? Medivacs can hold 4...
For Protoss it's the Stalker, the Stalker is good against everything.
I have no idea what it is for Terran. Marauders maybe, but they can't shoot air, so they aren't good against "everything".
e: And they didn't say "game changer" they said "good against everything", very specific wording.
i wouldn't say the stalker is "good" against everything. they're "ok" against everything but everything is either ok against them or rip them to shreds.
I've seen stalkers kill every possible unit composition in the game, with upgrades and blink. That doesn't mean they are the best choice for everything, that's not the point. The point is that you can build stalkers, and be reasonably sure they can fight whatever comes at you.
That's what the podcast guy was trying to say. Zerg doesn't have that unit (according to him, I won't really comment on that, because I don't play Zerg enough) that you can build and know it's going to be useful start to finish.
If you mass stalker against an MM ball, you're gonna get rolled (unless you completely outmacro the guy in which case you could win with anything). Same against speedlings, except blink is actually useful. The only reason stalkers can be considered good against everything is the fact that they can shoot at everything. So you could concievably mass them and not have to worry about losing to one surprise unit. Even then, they're decimated by voidrays and they lose to banshees in equal numbers. And then theres PDD...
I mean your point that they CAN fight anything thrown at them is correct, however, they lose pretty horribly against most reasonable compositions. And stalkers have the WORST upgrade path in the game(a flat +1) so fully upgraded stalkers go from a 10+4 to a whopping 13+4. Woooo.....
stalkers hit 10/+4 for base, so 14 against armored. they hit at 16 against armored with +1. They're considered "armored" type, and they get destroyed by anything that has an obscene bonus to "armor", like marauders (10/+10) or charged VRs (15/+35) or immortals (20/+30). and for some reason, i thought they were 8/+8 until i just checked....
For Protoss it's the Stalker, the Stalker is good against everything.
I have no idea what it is for Terran. Marauders maybe, but they can't shoot air, so they aren't good against "everything".
e: And they didn't say "game changer" they said "good against everything", very specific wording.
i wouldn't say the stalker is "good" against everything. they're "ok" against everything but everything is either ok against them or rip them to shreds.
Blink makes them Good -> Phenomenal against everything
marauders still own them. they outrange and outdamage at lower cost. no contest.
if you can mix in immortals, its a different story, or enough zealots that can get close enough to attack....
What they need is something to make up for their cost. I don't think their damage output -- 30% more than a stimmed marine that costs no gas and half minerals -- makes up for their drawbacks. Hydras either need to be a little scarier or they need to have some more survivability. Making them a little less dangerous and making them cost less gas would be cool but the roach and baneling kind of cover 25 gas units. Hmm. They definitely don't need much. Maybe have the range upgrade do something in addition, or give them a burrow-only ability
You're bitching about Hydras? Look at the Marauder vs. Stalker comp. Its insane.
stalkers only get the +1 bonus per attack upgrade sadly
yep their offenses suck but they're mobile and can generally avoid fighting their hard counters straight
arg...
i thought they got +1/+1 ... Now I'm even having a harder time focusing on them. I'd almost rather sentry/zealot for cost. you just get blown a little on gas, although 2-3 immortals goes a long way with either comp....
What they need is something to make up for their cost. I don't think their damage output -- 30% more than a stimmed marine that costs no gas and half minerals -- makes up for their drawbacks. Hydras either need to be a little scarier or they need to have some more survivability. Making them a little less dangerous and making them cost less gas would be cool but the roach and baneling kind of cover 25 gas units. Hmm. They definitely don't need much. Maybe have the range upgrade do something in addition, or give them a burrow-only ability
You're bitching about Hydras? Look at the Marauder vs. Stalker comp. Its insane.
I don't... understand? I'm not talking about counters
What they need is something to make up for their cost. I don't think their damage output -- 30% more than a stimmed marine that costs no gas and half minerals -- makes up for their drawbacks. Hydras either need to be a little scarier or they need to have some more survivability. Making them a little less dangerous and making them cost less gas would be cool but the roach and baneling kind of cover 25 gas units. Hmm. They definitely don't need much. Maybe have the range upgrade do something in addition, or give them a burrow-only ability
You're bitching about Hydras? Look at the Marauder vs. Stalker comp. Its insane.
I don't... understand? I'm not talking about counters
For Protoss it's the Stalker, the Stalker is good against everything.
I have no idea what it is for Terran. Marauders maybe, but they can't shoot air, so they aren't good against "everything".
e: And they didn't say "game changer" they said "good against everything", very specific wording.
i wouldn't say the stalker is "good" against everything. they're "ok" against everything but everything is either ok against them or rip them to shreds.
I've seen stalkers kill every possible unit composition in the game, with upgrades and blink. That doesn't mean they are the best choice for everything, that's not the point. The point is that you can build stalkers, and be reasonably sure they can fight whatever comes at you.
That's what the podcast guy was trying to say. Zerg doesn't have that unit (according to him, I won't really comment on that, because I don't play Zerg enough) that you can build and know it's going to be useful start to finish.
If you mass stalker against an MM ball, you're gonna get rolled (unless you completely outmacro the guy in which case you could win with anything). Same against speedlings, except blink is actually useful. The only reason stalkers can be considered good against everything is the fact that they can shoot at everything. So you could concievably mass them and not have to worry about losing to one surprise unit. Even then, they're decimated by voidrays and they lose to banshees in equal numbers. And then theres PDD...
I mean your point that they CAN fight anything thrown at them is correct, however, they lose pretty horribly against most reasonable compositions. And stalkers have the WORST upgrade path in the game(a flat +1) so fully upgraded stalkers go from a 10+4 to a whopping 13+4. Woooo.....
stalkers hit 10/+4 for base, so 14 against armored. they hit at 16 against armored with +1. They're considered "armored" type, and they get destroyed by anything that has an obscene bonus to "armor", like marauders (10/+10) or charged VRs (15/+35) or immortals (20/+30). and for some reason, i thought they were 8/+8 until i just checked....
I think Stalkers were 8/+6 during the Beta and were buffed to 10/+4 later on so they wouldn't suck so much against Light units; Mutalisks for example.
eeSanG on
Slice like a god damn hammer. LoL: Rafflesia / BNet: Talonflame#11979
Has anyone else been playing Stalker Phoenix in early/mid game PvP?
It takes a bit more micro than just pumping Immortals but I've feel it's bit more fun. It is a pain in the ass with the current grav lift bug. I wonder if it will see more play once this is fixed.
I don't really follow Day9 in yesterdays cast, when he says that three barracksing (mass marine, marauders) will die extremely easy to DT's.
Even if I mass those units alone I can extremely easily just keep one or two scans ready at all time and your dt's will die with one kill each...
So not really getting that part.
it is possible to catch terran by surprise without scan, or kite the scan out, until you break down and buy a couple ravens.
Indeed, but you'd most definitely be sacrificing a lot, if not all, of your initial dt's when that first scan goes down. Provided it's a good scan, if not then oh well.
And then later he probably gets some form of detection. You can catch him without a scan but it seems like a coin toss tactic.
Honk on
PSN: Honkalot
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HonkHonk is this poster.Registered User, __BANNED USERSregular
And I tried a neat thing against an opponent who heavily turreted. He built so many turrets after I sent a banshee early on, so I sacrificed a medivac dropping two marauders in, then they stimmed and ripped apart 3 turrets. Then cloaked banshees fly in.
Why would you sacrifice a medivac to only drop 2 marauders? Medivacs can hold 4...
Maybe I should clarify. :P
There were four in it, but it went down so quickly. They did the job this time though!
Posts
The biggest thing I noticed was when they reduced the size. The number of lings able to attack a thor at the same time is a lot smaller now. Makes a pretty big difference.
i think they need a speed upgrade off creep. also if their range upgrade was to 7 and not 6, that would be worth it.
dont marauders have like 7 range without any upgrades? why?
it is possible to catch terran by surprise without scan, or kite the scan out, until you break down and buy a couple ravens.
Joe's Stream.
unless you have 40 stalkers, and 2-4 collosus to back them up. they get shit DONE then....
Joe's Stream.
you get rolled by hydra/roach going stalker/colossus? o_O total opposite of my experience
please PLEASE up a replay, I'd like to see how I can get hydra/roach to work
Marauders are 6 range, marines are 5, hydras are 5/6
I like the idea of a range boost. so hydras would start at 6 and go to 7. so upgraded hydras can beat unupgraded colossi with greater ease. plus they start outranging hellions at 6 instead of equal to them at 5, and upgraded they'd be equal range (7) to tank mode siege tanks.
also like the idea of a speed boost. hydras off creep are the same speed as unstimmed marines but hydras feel SOOOO SLOOOW. any random players know why hydras feel so slow and marines don't? are marines just always stimmed?
alternately revert the earlier nerfs: bring them back to 90 life up from 80 and buff their attack cooldown to .75 from .83
voidrays win you the game if there isnt a counter near by. they can go with an army, but most people will just fire one down if it isnt charged....
Joe's Stream.
Why would you sacrifice a medivac to only drop 2 marauders? Medivacs can hold 4...
stalkers hit 10/+4 for base, so 14 against armored. they hit at 16 against armored with +1. They're considered "armored" type, and they get destroyed by anything that has an obscene bonus to "armor", like marauders (10/+10) or charged VRs (15/+35) or immortals (20/+30). and for some reason, i thought they were 8/+8 until i just checked....
Joe's Stream.
if you can mix in immortals, its a different story, or enough zealots that can get close enough to attack....
Joe's Stream.
You're bitching about Hydras? Look at the Marauder vs. Stalker comp. Its insane.
Joe's Stream.
yep their offenses suck but they're mobile and can generally avoid fighting their hard counters straight
arg...
i thought they got +1/+1 ... Now I'm even having a harder time focusing on them. I'd almost rather sentry/zealot for cost. you just get blown a little on gas, although 2-3 immortals goes a long way with either comp....
Joe's Stream.
I don't... understand? I'm not talking about counters
I guess I should stop posting at this point
me too, prbly...
new thread time?
Joe's Stream.
I think Stalkers were 8/+6 during the Beta and were buffed to 10/+4 later on so they wouldn't suck so much against Light units; Mutalisks for example.
Slice like a god damn hammer. LoL: Rafflesia / BNet: Talonflame#11979
Or make like... a single turret while you build a raven.
It takes a bit more micro than just pumping Immortals but I've feel it's bit more fun. It is a pain in the ass with the current grav lift bug. I wonder if it will see more play once this is fixed.
Indeed, but you'd most definitely be sacrificing a lot, if not all, of your initial dt's when that first scan goes down. Provided it's a good scan, if not then oh well.
And then later he probably gets some form of detection. You can catch him without a scan but it seems like a coin toss tactic.
Maybe I should clarify. :P
There were four in it, but it went down so quickly.
3clipse: The key to any successful marriage is a good mid-game transition.
i know this because of a day9 daily where he described a spore crawler desperately trying to burrow to see the ghost before the nuke landed on him
One of the best moments in a daily.
Which is probably the funniest daily I've seen... ever. Especially that part, I lol'd so hard.
Time for all the single player and multiplayer threads to become one.
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