The new forums will be named Coin Return (based on the most recent vote)! You can check on the status and timeline of the transition to the new forums here.
The Guiding Principles and New Rules document is now in effect.
Career time: Tell me about paralegals
Underdog
Registered User regular
Registered User regular
Trying to land employment has not been easy with my super useful English degree. For the record, I don't want to teach or tutor, whether it be in Canada or abroad. I have a lot of teacher friends and I greatly respect the work that they do and recognize that there is a big difference between a teacher and a good teacher. I don't think I can be a good teacher because I have no patience with children.
What had been suggested to me once was being a paralegal. I was told that with my writing skills, it may end up being something I could make a career out of. 4 months of unemployment has me seriously looking at paralegal as something I might get into. I have read a few websites on the occupation (wiki being the first and then a couple of the first hits when I typed in "What do paralegals do") and I feel like I'm more confused than before I started.
1) What do paralegals do? From those websites, it feels like they do everything in a law firm, short of appearing in court (and apparently, in Canada, they actually can appear in court for some of the smaller things). Is this true? Research, looking over evidence, interviewing witnesses, writing up reports, writing a myriad of law documents, these as well as a whole bunch of other things, would all these be my responsibilities? Or just some of them? Because from those websites, it looks like there are several different types of paralegals (i.e. corporate, real estate, etc).
2) Are you a paralegal? Do you know someone who is? Can you tell me what a day at your job is like? Do you spend much time actually in court? People who work in Canada would be most helpful here but I will take anything. I really want to know what a normal day of work is like.
3) Is there much in the way of take-home work in this occupation? I have something that I really need to work on in my personal time and the teaching/tutoring thing which I did for a year really cut into that. I want to know if this is a job where I get in, work my ass off and then leave it all behind when I get into my car.
4) Do I need a paralegal certificate to get a job as one? I have a university degree from UofT but nothing related to law. Is it that my chances would get a lot better or it's actually a must have?
5) This is a much more specific question based on Toronto. Obviously, Seneca college pops up first when I search paralegal program Toronto but is it the best one? Humber, Metro and Herzing also show up as having those programs. I guess Seneca is the most recognizable one but that doesn't always mean best. I do like that it has an accelerated program to finish in one year as opposed to two though.
Those are really the biggest questions floating in my mind so any help on them would be great. Oh, any info you can think of that I didn't ask about, feel free to post it anyway.
What had been suggested to me once was being a paralegal. I was told that with my writing skills, it may end up being something I could make a career out of. 4 months of unemployment has me seriously looking at paralegal as something I might get into. I have read a few websites on the occupation (wiki being the first and then a couple of the first hits when I typed in "What do paralegals do") and I feel like I'm more confused than before I started.
1) What do paralegals do? From those websites, it feels like they do everything in a law firm, short of appearing in court (and apparently, in Canada, they actually can appear in court for some of the smaller things). Is this true? Research, looking over evidence, interviewing witnesses, writing up reports, writing a myriad of law documents, these as well as a whole bunch of other things, would all these be my responsibilities? Or just some of them? Because from those websites, it looks like there are several different types of paralegals (i.e. corporate, real estate, etc).
2) Are you a paralegal? Do you know someone who is? Can you tell me what a day at your job is like? Do you spend much time actually in court? People who work in Canada would be most helpful here but I will take anything. I really want to know what a normal day of work is like.
3) Is there much in the way of take-home work in this occupation? I have something that I really need to work on in my personal time and the teaching/tutoring thing which I did for a year really cut into that. I want to know if this is a job where I get in, work my ass off and then leave it all behind when I get into my car.
4) Do I need a paralegal certificate to get a job as one? I have a university degree from UofT but nothing related to law. Is it that my chances would get a lot better or it's actually a must have?
5) This is a much more specific question based on Toronto. Obviously, Seneca college pops up first when I search paralegal program Toronto but is it the best one? Humber, Metro and Herzing also show up as having those programs. I guess Seneca is the most recognizable one but that doesn't always mean best. I do like that it has an accelerated program to finish in one year as opposed to two though.
Those are really the biggest questions floating in my mind so any help on them would be great. Oh, any info you can think of that I didn't ask about, feel free to post it anyway.
Underdog on
0
This discussion has been closed.
Posts
1) Depends on the type of law. Litigation paralegals can appear in court. I'm an estate planning paralegal and my office doesn't handle any litigation (or even probate work). I do some research, but mostly just initial drafting of documents. You gotta think about the type of law you want to get involved with, Contracts, Corporations, EP/Probate (not sure how this is handled in Canada), Intellectual Property (generally requires a science/engineering background), Litigation, Malpractice, Immigration, etc. etc.
There are paralegals who work in every type of law. Also, not all paralegals work for law offices. You can be a corporation's paralegal (different from a corporate paralegal who handles corporate formation and maintenance) and help in that specific company's litigation/IP/contracts or what not.
2) Yes. Yes, my girlfriend is also an estate planning paralegal. Day at my job: sit on my ass and type, do some filing, enter in timesheets. I also handle the IT for our office.
3) None. I work 9-5 and that's it.
4) Yes, you need a certificate here in the US at least. You can get a job as a legal secretary if you don't want to get a certificate.
1) I organized, copied and submitted documents. Thousands and thousands of documents. DOCUMENTS. Sometimes there was research and drafting, but mostly document handling and quality control.
2) See above.
3) Take-home work? No. Get to go home from work at all? No. 60-80 hour weeks were not uncommon.
4) Nope. I have an English degree, just like you, and that's all I had at the time.
I haven't got a clue what type of law I want to get into as the serious desire to do this only occured about 3 days ago. I'm writing a cover letter for the position of a legal assistant (it seems like it's the same thing as paralegal) at a firm that takes cases of wrongful dismissal and that actually seems interesting to me. I can't say for sure though as I'm still in the waffling phase. The nice thing about the position is that it doesn't mention anything about the certificate and says that full training will be provided. I won't get my hopes up but I'll try for it anyway.
*phew* The descriptions of your day-to-day work is very comforting everybody, thank you. I was feeling overwhelmed and although I know that my work will depend on what type of paralegal I aim for, I'm still more positive about it.
I actually am not actively looking to end up in the courts so it's good to know even if I do, I wouldn't be tasked with anything huge. I do not mind research and typing and filing at all. I'm hoping Gork's working hours are the exception rather than the norm as it seems like Blonde and John both went through 9-5 days. The take-home stuff sounds encouraging though, definitely what I want.
I think I'll definitely look into the certificate. I mean, if I defy the odds of my life and land the legal assistant job then I'll decide what to do then but likely I won't and having the certificate shouldn't hurt even if it doesn't help much. I just wish i'd come to this point sooner since all the programs have started already. Oh well, this'll give me some much needed time to save up money for the program. Looks like Seneca has one that starts in the Summer so I'll likely aim for that. Oh and Seneca is certified by the LSUC which is the body that oversees lawyers and such in Ontario so I think it's legit.
To Gork, how did you get the paralegal job then? It was just part of your job search or you looked specifically for it? Did they train you on the job then?
To John, was your aim to become a lawyer? Is that why you say you were pissed you never got into the court room?
Timesheet as in recording yours hours at work? Two of you mentioned that, does that take long? I'm just curious now, this isn't really part of the paralegal stuff. Don't you just type in the hours your worked?
You guys have been super helpful so far. Thank you very much.
Originally, I wanted to be a lawyer. I got the job when I interned under a former partner who was working in Congress. I mentioned wanting to work for his firm so he made a phone call and then I had an interview.
Yes, there was on the job training. None of it was particularly difficult. The most valuable skill was probably meticulous attention to detail. If you can cultivate that, you'll be fine.
As far as time sheets go, I had to record every six minutes of my day in a computer program every week. Otherwise, they can't bill clients and I don't get paid.
Hmm, I think I shouldn't aim for big law firms then. Attention to detail I can do. I'm sure it's not at the ideal level yet but I don't think I should have trouble getting better at it.
Record every six minutes? I'm still confused about that. Like, if you got in at 9 on Monday, you'd have to account for what you were doing at 9:06, 9:12, 9:18, etc? If I got that right then I can see why John said he hated that part.
Edit: In my cover letter, I detailed my organizational and time management skills. In light of your post, should I take out time management and focus on my attention to detail then?
Time management is super-important to a paralegal; the firms I'm familiar with don't expect the paralegals to account for every moment of their day. Especially at smaller firms, a lot of a paralegal's time is spent doing things considered overhead, that aren't billable; they're only expected to bill X hours per week ("X" usually being something much less than 40, as opposed to the lawyers who are expected to bill 50+ hours per week).
Just something to keep in mind.
So you mean you have to write down "At 9:06 I was doing this. Then at 9:12 it was this. And at 9:18 it was this." ?
They call that metered billing or somesuch, lots of jobs do it, though a bunch do it by 10 minutes or 15 minutes. 6 minutes seems a little silly, like you would be spending lots of time filling out the damn form. I guess even at that, they probably wouldn't hassle you about it as long as you had it filled out before you left.
Honestly though, carrying around a form with a clip board and writing what when down every so often isn't that much work.
but they're listening to every word I say
Billing for me was really hit-or-miss. I made my own time sheet with 10-minute increments. I think as long as I billed 1600 hours a year I was in the clear. That really wasn't a problem, I always cleared 2000 working a 40-45 hour week with some overtime every month. You just do your work for the day and write down what you did when. I've never heard of this every 6 minutes stuff. A typical entry for me would read something like "review, analyze, and index 1st supplemental document production - 2.5 hours." Done. Sometimes a partner will cut your hours, that is they'll remove some of the time from the final bill. I really didn't care about that, just so long as I had actually put in my time they could do whatever they wanted. My pay wasn't based upon hours billed, I think. I got a salary and maxed out the raise and a bonus each year.
My firm was about 20 attorneys, so we did have to keep a fairly strict handle on our time. However, we did have to be a little careful about what we did with our time. Any large photocopying jobs either were sent to a vendor or given to a secretary to copy because they mostly don't bill for their time. It's hard to charge a client for standing at a copier hitting the big green button unless you're putting together a document production or something.
I wouldn't discount large firms just yet. Sure, the work hours can be 70+ hours a week when you're busy, but a good paralegal working overtime at a big firm can make six figures.
And my billing always worked out to something like, "4.5 hours document review for such and such client". I can't think of one instance where I ever billed a client for an actual six minute period.
I think I've got a better grasp of the time sheet thing. It makes sense since the clients are paying for specific chunks of your time.
I will definitely see "1-2 years experience" as a chance to get in so I'd apply anyway. But yes, job availability will definitely be something to consider. Like I said though, chances are I won't get the job I'm applying for right now so the plan is to take the paralegal course that starts in the summer. In the meantime, I'll keep a lookout for entry-level jobs in the field and for jobs in general since I need the money anyway.
Oh, hmm. I just realized the process has a few more steps than I thought. I'd get into the program, finish it and then have to apply to take the licensing exam through LSUC. Looks like booking the exam can take a while so I'll definitely try to think farther ahead to make sure I get everything in place and not spend a year doing nothing while I wait for my exam date.
Again, this has been tremendously helpful. I think I'm definitely more sure of my path now, although I still have to decide what kind of law I want to end up in, and I'm in the planning stages of getting things ready. I'd like to thank all of you for the wealth of information.
Is there any way to save a thread or something? I think H/A threads disappear once they get to the 8th page right? I'm going to need to refer back to a lot of this later on.
This is how we handle it using Timesheets (software program) - keep in mind this isn't really how it looks on the software, but just gives you an idea of what timesheets does.
Johnson, Jeff - Drafted Trust, reviewed and revised same. Proofed summary. .95 (meaning I worked 57 minutes on this matter)
Smith, Sandra - Reviewed deeds, drafted Preliminary Change of Ownership Reports, meeting with attorney regarding same. .6
James, Bill - Telephone call from client regarding outstanding issues, drafted memo to attorney regarding same. .1
Not all work is billable, and the firm won't expect you to bill 8 hours a day, but a certain amount every day (the firm will tell you how much they want billed on an average day). Some days you'll bill 8 hours, some days you'll bill 5. Of course this varies per firm.
I think Litigation paralegals tend to get paid the most, but they have the most stressful job imo. I don't get paid shit (37k base, but good bonuses and a profit share bump me up to about 45k in Los Angeles), but I'm young and pretty inexperienced. The senior paralegal here makes 75k base and about 90k after bonuses and profit share.
I really want out of estate planning though, but it's hard even though I have experience here, I don't have experience in other types of law. It has been my experience that once you're in a type of law, it's hard to change fields, so make your choice wisely. To get an idea of what kind of law you want to practice, start your paralegal courses.
Estate planning is wills, trusts, etc. I think.
Unfortunately for every cool celeb, we have 15 geese looking down on you.
I work in a small office (attorney, 2 paralegals and legal secretary). Last month, a goose came in and I asked him if I could get him something to drink. I bring said drink, and he says, "so is this all you do here?" Sigh.
Estate planning has some overlap with real estate, but only in the sense that we transfer property into our client's Trusts (not sure if you have Trusts in Canada) or correct how title is held (i.e. separate property, community property, tenancy in common), and follow the wishes of the clients to make sure property (real estate and tangible property like cars, boats, jewelry, art, etc.) pass to their descendants and beneficiaries like they want.
We create estate plans: Trusts, Wills, Advanced Health Care Directives (what a client wants done in case he's in a coma, how his remains will be handled, should a doc try to bring him back to life if their heart stops, etc.), General Durable Powers of Attorney (if client is incapacitated, a hand picked person, generally a spouse, will be able to handle their money to pay bills and provide for client). And a few other docs, but those are the big ones.
And Matrix is right about litigation paralegals having it hard. Miss a deadline and screw up a case, and you're in a hell of a lot of trouble. They can have take home work, they work long hours, but they also get paid more (from what I've seen). I think litigation can be a lot more interesting too with all sorts of weird stories you'll eventually see. But it will be high stress.
If one screwed up counting a calendar deadline I would crucify that paralegal myself.
Unless it's paralegal stuff, I'd imagine you would need to make your own thread.
On the subject of paralegal work, is there such thing as a part-time paralegal? I'm getting the impression that it's either 40 hr 9-5 or 60+ hours a week.
Part-time paralegal work exists, but it's mostly a furphy - expect to try and cram an entire week's work into 20 hours, or be on the phone constantly when you're not at work. Not only that, it's much harder to get assigned to any decent cases because partners will want you around full time to see things through to completion.
Of course there are exceptions, mostly in the quieter suburban firms that do conveyancing/real estate type work that don't really need a paralegal around all the time.