HonkHonk is this poster.Registered User, __BANNED USERSregular
edited October 2010
The day9 archive-player is acting up and I can't skip in the timeline of yesterdays episode. This makes it incredibly frustrating because I missed a part in the middle and now I will have to restart the whole thing from the beginning.
I'm pretty sure the only time Zerg needs to fear going 14 hatch against Toss is if Toss went Forge first. Double gates are pretty laughable now with the Roach and Zealot changes. See 2 gates? Thrown down a warren, you are safe until the mid-game, enjoy.
Not to mention a probe in your base.. What's that? It sees that you don't have a pool down? It sees a drone heading to your expo? Blocked. gg. You're extremely behind.
In TvZ, when I scout the Zerg going FE, can I FE myself or would it be a little too dangerous? Typically I scout at 12 or so. I'd assume the BO would be depot/rax/CC then build a bunker or two at expo. That would also involve delaying gas in order to get the minerals high enough.
Is it worth it? Too dangerous? Anyone here pulled it off before? Also, what hp #'s should I be looking for as signs to tip off their BO? Like 14 Hatch/14 Pool, etc?
Thanks!
MNC Dover on
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Legends of Runeterra: MNCdover #moc
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i'm not a terran player but i'd say no. i can do it with toss but it can be a crapshoot if i'm attacked at the wrong time. plus i have chronoboost to help me out. 1base terran is pretty strong already, so i don't think you even need 2 bases right away. if you really want the resource boost though, consider just making an extra CC and getting double the mules. then when you can reasonably defend, expoing will be quick and easy.
In TvZ, when I scout the Zerg going FE, can I FE myself or would it be a little too dangerous? Typically I scout at 12 or so. I'd assume the BO would be depot/rax/CC then build a bunker or two at expo. That would also involve delaying gas in order to get the minerals high enough.
Is it worth it? Too dangerous? Anyone here pulled it off before? Also, what hp #'s should I be looking for as signs to tip off their BO? Like 14 Hatch/14 Pool, etc?
Thanks!
1rax FE is becoming quite standard now actually. I think it is one of the few viable builds against 14hatch at the moment. It starts off with the standard opening:
10 depot
12 rax
13 gas
15 OC
Get a tech lab right away on the barracks and build a reaper. Harass with the reaper, potentially try throwing up a bunker near their natural, anything to delay them. Throw up a CC as soon as you get 400 minerals (in your base). At this point the build can differ depending on what you want to do. A common transition I've seen is throwing down three more barracks (see Loner vs Terious Game 3). As soon as the CC finishes float it down into the natural and build 1-2~ bunkers. Scout carefully to make sure you're ready if they try some sort of all-in attack. I'm not sure about health #s exactly, that is just something that comes with experience.
mEEksa on
0
3cl1ps3I will build a labyrinth to house the cheeseRegistered Userregular
edited October 2010
The zerg thing is like Day[9] said.
They were never UP, people were just playing them wrong.
I think everyone just isn't used to playing zerg yet. Zerg players are just starting to get good at zerg and toss and terran suddenly realize they have to play better than ball up your (stalkers/colossus/zealots/templar) or (MMM/thor/helions) and a-move to win.
Zerg has to make sure they have good unit comps, get good surrounds, make sure they fight in the open so they aren't choked, and harass and contain with mutalisks all while macro'ing up to many expansions. The other races will start to have to prepare to fight in a similar fashion using their tools instead of just contently turtling on 2-bases and waiting til they have thors or colossus to a-move.
:^:
my how the tables have turned. zerg have gone from UP to waaah waah waah so OP. is it just roach range? bulding hp buff? the reaper zealot build time nerfs? or just people learning to play zerg and P and T not adapting?
valiance on
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tuxkamenreally took this picture.Registered Userregular
The day9 archive-player is acting up and I can't skip in the timeline of yesterdays episode. This makes it incredibly frustrating because I missed a part in the middle and now I will have to restart the whole thing from the beginning.
Frustration.
This happens all the time.
EDIT: ....to me. I think blip just chokes and dies up until a certain point in the day.
I think everyone just isn't used to playing zerg yet. Zerg players are just starting to get good at zerg and toss and terran suddenly realize they have to play better than ball up your (stalkers/colossus/zealots/templar) or (MMM/thor/helions) and a-move to win.
Zerg has to make sure they have good unit comps, get good surrounds, make sure they fight in the open so they aren't choked, and harass and contain with mutalisks all while macro'ing up to many expansions. The other races will start to have to prepare to fight in a similar fashion using their tools instead of just contently turtling on 2-bases and waiting til they have thors or colossus to a-move.
:^:
my how the tables have turned. zerg have gone from UP to waaah waah waah so OP. is it just roach range? bulding hp buff? the reaper zealot build time nerfs? or just people learning to play zerg and P and T not adapting?
For Terran at least it is the combination of the early game nerf, the roach buff and Zerg learning how to play better. Zerg can now early expand with no danger, and that coupled with all T harass except banshees being nerfed means that Zerg can go into the mid-game without being at a disadvantage like was common before. At this point the Zerg macro can start kicking in and Terran has an uphill battle trying to do significant damage before late game (at which point Zerg is considered to have a pretty large advantage). This is all just based on my own experiences and what I've read from some of the pros.
HonkHonk is this poster.Registered User, __BANNED USERSregular
edited October 2010
Okay so watching the first game of the Funday Monday double episode, I just realised that I can never have met a protoss player who played a dark color. Because the collossi in this game are shaded completely different than they usually are - I hardly even recognize them as a unit, because the color is so different (this player is dark purple or something).
I play random, so I hope I can sound a bit impartial here. To me the main big advantage of zerg right now is that neither terran or protoss can stop them from taking multiple expansions and gaining full map control. Once I'm up 2+ bases as zerg it's GG because I can continuously produce troops way faster than terran or protoss can.
Pretty much once 4-5 mutas are on the field every option for terran or protoss harass is shut down and zerg gets full map control. Drops can be chased down, hellions are easy to stop, and the moment you step out of your base you lose your whole mineral line.
Maybe it's just because I haven't learned how to deal with it as terran or protoss, but I definitely abuse it as zerg.
Okay so watching the first game of the Funday Monday double episode, I just realised that I can never have met a protoss player who played a dark color. Because the collossi in this game are shaded completely different than they usually are - I hardly even recognize them as a unit, because the color is so different (this player is dark purple or something).
...and that coupled with all T harass except banshees being nerfed means that Zerg can go into the mid-game without being at a disadvantage like was common before.
Uh.. What T harass was nerfed other than reapers again?
Pretty much once 4-5 mutas are on the field every option for terran or protoss harass is shut down and zerg gets full map control.
Meh. Disagree. Throw down a few turrets. You're golden. And I find it even less useful against toss since they can warp in like 4 stalkers anywhere anytime in the blink of an eye. They don't have to pull their army back or anything.
yeah Zerg lategame has never really been weak, a lot of their loss rate was just coming from having their FEs taken down. I wouldn't be surprised if they had a >50% winrate in games that ran over 15 minutes even in 1.1.1
I'd rather have ultras vs terran. vikings are such a ludicrously hard counter to broodlords and easily mass produced, so you need mutas to kill them off which can't morph into broodlords and have to deal with thors.
...and that coupled with all T harass except banshees being nerfed means that Zerg can go into the mid-game without being at a disadvantage like was common before.
Uh.. What T harass was nerfed other than reapers again?
Hellion harass indirectly through the roach buff. You may argue that it doesn't make a big difference but I've yet to see hellion harass do any damage since the patch (apart from maybe 1-2 drone kills). On the other hand I've seen Terran lose outright with Hellion openings if the Zerg counters with roaches.
Pretty much once 4-5 mutas are on the field every option for terran or protoss harass is shut down and zerg gets full map control.
Meh. Disagree. Throw down a few turrets. You're golden. And I find it even less useful against toss since they can warp in like 4 stalkers anywhere anytime in the blink of an eye. They don't have to pull their army back or anything.
4-5 turrets are fine until the Zerg gets critical mass of mutas. At that point turrets go down like butter. And the same situation holds true for warping in a few stalkers. Watch any ZvT or ZvP recently where the Zerg goes mutaling to see this in action.
Watching the Terious-Loner game, it occurs to me, a nice asshole trick would be to burrow banelings one at a time in front of an approaching Terran bioball. On narrow maps, until they get a raven, the Terran's choices are either to walk into it and die or waste 300 minerals to scan it out
I have been getting constantly beat by terrans that go heavy mech (blue flame hellions, Thors) with some mauraders to murder my roaches. I think I need to improve my muta harass so they stay in their base for longer but I dunno, even when I harass well they still just move out and murder me
I have been getting constantly beat by terrans that go heavy mech (blue flame hellions, Thors) with some mauraders to murder my roaches. I think I need to improve my muta harass so they stay in their base for longer but I dunno, even when I harass well they still just move out and murder me
I'd rather have ultras vs terran. vikings are such a ludicrously hard counter to broodlords and easily mass produced, so you need mutas to kill them off which can't morph into broodlords and have to deal with thors.
Make 4-7 blords, destroy their expo, then mass ultras while they're stuck with vikings. It doesn't matter your blords are killed after that. They're down an expo and wasted resources to build useless units.
So I've never played a game against Zerg that lasted long enough for Broodlords or Ultras to show up, and I play Protoss.
What is it about the examples given that keeps the Terran from building Battlecruisers when you're talking about the Zerg player alternating between 2 different Tier 3 units? Are we just assuming that the Zerg has the expected late game econ advantage, or that the Terran has no reason to go anything but Viking?
Dropping Loads on
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3clipse: The key to any successful marriage is a good mid-game transition.
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HonkHonk is this poster.Registered User, __BANNED USERSregular
Okay so watching the first game of the Funday Monday double episode, I just realised that I can never have met a protoss player who played a dark color. Because the collossi in this game are shaded completely different than they usually are - I hardly even recognize them as a unit, because the color is so different (this player is dark purple or something).
Posts
I should work on it but it's been fine for me so far...
- a coordinated post by duldonkulus and iowa
Frustration.
In TvZ, when I scout the Zerg going FE, can I FE myself or would it be a little too dangerous? Typically I scout at 12 or so. I'd assume the BO would be depot/rax/CC then build a bunker or two at expo. That would also involve delaying gas in order to get the minerals high enough.
Is it worth it? Too dangerous? Anyone here pulled it off before? Also, what hp #'s should I be looking for as signs to tip off their BO? Like 14 Hatch/14 Pool, etc?
Thanks!
Legends of Runeterra: MNCdover #moc
Switch ID: MNC Dover SW-1154-3107-1051
Steam ID
Twitch Page
1rax FE is becoming quite standard now actually. I think it is one of the few viable builds against 14hatch at the moment. It starts off with the standard opening:
10 depot
12 rax
13 gas
15 OC
Get a tech lab right away on the barracks and build a reaper. Harass with the reaper, potentially try throwing up a bunker near their natural, anything to delay them. Throw up a CC as soon as you get 400 minerals (in your base). At this point the build can differ depending on what you want to do. A common transition I've seen is throwing down three more barracks (see Loner vs Terious Game 3). As soon as the CC finishes float it down into the natural and build 1-2~ bunkers. Scout carefully to make sure you're ready if they try some sort of all-in attack. I'm not sure about health #s exactly, that is just something that comes with experience.
They were never UP, people were just playing them wrong.
Crovax.436 Steam: Crovaxan
:^:
my how the tables have turned. zerg have gone from UP to waaah waah waah so OP. is it just roach range? bulding hp buff? the reaper zealot build time nerfs? or just people learning to play zerg and P and T not adapting?
This happens all the time.
EDIT: ....to me.
Games: Ad Astra Per Phalla | Choose Your Own Phalla
Crovax.436 Steam: Crovaxan
For Terran at least it is the combination of the early game nerf, the roach buff and Zerg learning how to play better. Zerg can now early expand with no danger, and that coupled with all T harass except banshees being nerfed means that Zerg can go into the mid-game without being at a disadvantage like was common before. At this point the Zerg macro can start kicking in and Terran has an uphill battle trying to do significant damage before late game (at which point Zerg is considered to have a pretty large advantage). This is all just based on my own experiences and what I've read from some of the pros.
FFBE: 898,311,440
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Pretty much once 4-5 mutas are on the field every option for terran or protoss harass is shut down and zerg gets full map control. Drops can be chased down, hellions are easy to stop, and the moment you step out of your base you lose your whole mineral line.
Maybe it's just because I haven't learned how to deal with it as terran or protoss, but I definitely abuse it as zerg.
Muta harass until you get broodlords
Roach/Bling to knock out bioballs
They're hallucinations, not real Collossi
that would work better if broodlords morphed from mutas, but no
blue flame hellions have not been nerfed at all. terran mech is still really, really good against zerg.
Kind of a TLO build, but slower and more economical.
Uh.. What T harass was nerfed other than reapers again?
Meh. Disagree. Throw down a few turrets. You're golden. And I find it even less useful against toss since they can warp in like 4 stalkers anywhere anytime in the blink of an eye. They don't have to pull their army back or anything.
blords own mech
Hellion harass indirectly through the roach buff. You may argue that it doesn't make a big difference but I've yet to see hellion harass do any damage since the patch (apart from maybe 1-2 drone kills). On the other hand I've seen Terran lose outright with Hellion openings if the Zerg counters with roaches.
4-5 turrets are fine until the Zerg gets critical mass of mutas. At that point turrets go down like butter. And the same situation holds true for warping in a few stalkers. Watch any ZvT or ZvP recently where the Zerg goes mutaling to see this in action.
Serves you right.
Insect scum.
See if i ever randomly join your games again!
What is it about the examples given that keeps the Terran from building Battlecruisers when you're talking about the Zerg player alternating between 2 different Tier 3 units? Are we just assuming that the Zerg has the expected late game econ advantage, or that the Terran has no reason to go anything but Viking?
3clipse: The key to any successful marriage is a good mid-game transition.
Oh man do I feel stupid now. 8-)