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Street Fighter: Oh no! [Main] is the worst now! I'm switching to [buffed alt]!

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    Evil MultifariousEvil Multifarious Registered User regular
    edited October 2010
    Cody is pretty damn boring.

    Evil Multifarious on
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    SlayerVinSlayerVin Registered User regular
    edited October 2010
    I find Cody both boring to play as and against. He does a shitload of damage though, and has good AA options. Unfortunately he seems to lead to a very dull play style.

    SlayerVin on
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    aBlankaBlank Registered User regular
    edited October 2010
    every character can be played 'boring'.

    aBlank on
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    Hiryu02Hiryu02 Registered User regular
    edited October 2010
    Same here, TN is ineligible.

    Hiryu02 on
    Sev: Your gameplay is the most heavily yomi based around. Usually you look for characters that allow you to force guessing situations for big dmg. Even if the guess is mathematically nowhere near in your favor lol. You're happiest when you have either a 50/50, 33/33/33 or even a 75/25 situation to go crazy with. And you will take big risks to force those situations to come up.
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    GF-BoceifusGF-Boceifus Registered User regular
    edited October 2010
    I know I am probably the only person with this sentiment, but...

    I really enjoy fighting Blanka. Maybe it's because my SF bff RxNegative plays him, but I find the matches entertaining. I really don't understand why so many people have a problem with him. Man up and enjoy the shenanigans. Or would you rather fight random shoto #4378?

    GF-Boceifus on
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    Hiryu02Hiryu02 Registered User regular
    edited October 2010
    I don't mind Blanka either, so long as I actually get more than one match in at a time vs the player.

    Hiryu02 on
    Sev: Your gameplay is the most heavily yomi based around. Usually you look for characters that allow you to force guessing situations for big dmg. Even if the guess is mathematically nowhere near in your favor lol. You're happiest when you have either a 50/50, 33/33/33 or even a 75/25 situation to go crazy with. And you will take big risks to force those situations to come up.
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    BizazedoBizazedo Registered User regular
    edited October 2010
    I know I am probably the only person with this sentiment, but...

    I really enjoy fighting Blanka. Maybe it's because my SF bff RxNegative plays him, but I find the matches entertaining. I really don't understand why so many people have a problem with him. Man up and enjoy the shenanigans. Or would you rather fight random shoto #4378?

    My feelings come down entirely to how well I'm throw teching that day, because it feels like that's the only way he can hurt me.

    If I am teching like a champ, it's np.

    That's why finding a 2 bar Blanka can be irritating.

    Bizazedo on
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    DunxcoDunxco Should get a suit Never skips breakfastRegistered User regular
    edited October 2010
    aBlank wrote: »
    every character can be played 'boring'.

    Except Gen. He dances.

    Dunxco on
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    Hiryu02Hiryu02 Registered User regular
    edited October 2010
    I find that Blanka and Bison have something in common: They are both tests of your fundamentals and patience.

    Unless you are playing somebody who has a really bad matchup vs these two, if you can block and tech consistently you shut down a large percentage of their offense. After that, it's just chip damage. I do a lot better vs these chars with I keep my head right, block, tech and punish them when there are breaks in their offense or shenanigans.

    Just hitting buttons usually gets me killed.

    Hiryu02 on
    Sev: Your gameplay is the most heavily yomi based around. Usually you look for characters that allow you to force guessing situations for big dmg. Even if the guess is mathematically nowhere near in your favor lol. You're happiest when you have either a 50/50, 33/33/33 or even a 75/25 situation to go crazy with. And you will take big risks to force those situations to come up.
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    BizazedoBizazedo Registered User regular
    edited October 2010
    Hiryu02 wrote: »
    I find that Blanka and Bison have something in common: They are both tests of your fundamentals and patience.
    100% accurate and why I don't really believe Bison is a top 5 dude. You said it better then I could.

    But, yeah, they really are tests of "Can you block/tech?"

    Bizazedo on
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    Evil MultifariousEvil Multifarious Registered User regular
    edited October 2010
    I much prefer fighting shotos over blanka

    I find that blanka isn't very good, and most players aren't very good with him, so they play him with silly habits and shenanigans that are reinforced by things like people failing to block his ultra and the really good hitbox on j.hk.

    So to beat them, you have to patiently chase around this annoying hoppy jackass whose attack trades with a lot of anti airs. It's annoying and tedious.

    I don't mind playing people with good blankas like RX and chamberlain. I'd rather fight a silly Ken than a silly blanka though, hands down.

    Evil Multifarious on
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    Evil MultifariousEvil Multifarious Registered User regular
    edited October 2010
    I think bison is definitely numerically top five because he has an advantage over so many other characters

    in practice though, he's not a tourney winning character, because all his rough matchups are pretty common high tier characters.

    Evil Multifarious on
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    BizazedoBizazedo Registered User regular
    edited October 2010
    It'd be interesting to see a re-worked tier list working in character popularity and tournament results / % each character is played at tourneys.

    Because being able to rape a crap character and break even with most others shouldn't inflate a character. The word for that is "well-rounded".

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    blaze_zeroblaze_zero Registered User regular
    edited October 2010
    No South Dakota? Fuuuuuuuuuuck. There goes my only chance of ever trying to compete.

    blaze_zero on
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    Evil MultifariousEvil Multifarious Registered User regular
    edited October 2010
    Man all of you guys are getting screwed over here

    land of the free my ass!

    God bless Canada, home of unrestricted online gambling

    Evil Multifarious on
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    SlayerVinSlayerVin Registered User regular
    edited October 2010
    Does anyone know why this is illegal in those states? Is it because of the entrance fee? It seems kinda silly, though I can imagine it's put under the umbrella of online gambling.

    SlayerVin on
    BE ATTITUDE FOR GAINS!
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    LibrarianThorneLibrarianThorne Registered User regular
    edited October 2010
    Hiryu02 wrote: »
    Also good advice re: tiers.

    In general, pretty listenable, I think some of the banter/laughs go on for a bit too long, but there's a lot of stuff that is pretty much what I tell new players.

    I like it, will listen to the next one. Maybe have fewer local references, as nobody outside your scene will necessarily care. Also try and keep a slightly tighter leash on the banter. Personally I tend to tune out if I'm not listening to solid info, unless I'm listening to drama about tourney crap etc. Like that chick Juicebox had on a few podcasts? WASTE of time. I don't need to hear some girl spoonfeed the host questions.

    You guys are off to a good start, sound real natural and like you guys are having fun with it.

    Thanks for the feedback, Hiryu! It's been sent along to my fellow podcasters and we're gonna make sure ep 2 is a bit more even.

    LibrarianThorne on
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    Hiryu02Hiryu02 Registered User regular
    edited October 2010
    blaze_zero wrote: »
    No South Dakota? Fuuuuuuuuuuck. There goes my only chance of ever trying to compete.

    I feel you man, same in my state.

    Re: Bison/Tiers

    I will still say that Bison is top 5 in super. Great normals, good speed/dash. Jumpins have weird hitboxes and are hard to AA, no less than 5-6 possible escapes on wakeup, great SK pressure, etc.

    However I still believe the tier lists are slightly skewed, especially the newest one with Honda at number 1. A much more practical thing would be to only list the top 18-20 characters. Because yeah Honda beats half of the cast for free, but has BAD matchups vs multiple chars in the top 10, yet by dint of having so many favorable matchups he still comes out on top, even though most of his good MU's are vs characters who DON'T MATTER. Like who cares if you are 7-3 vs Hakan, or Sakura?

    You know who isn't even top 10, yet has the capability of absolutely wrecking the shit of nearly everyone in the top 10? Dhalsim. But he has some real bad matchups vs some mid tiers that drag him down. But I mean, this dude shuts down shotos and Guile and Honda down for free. Well that's an exaggeration, but you get my meaning.

    Hiryu02 on
    Sev: Your gameplay is the most heavily yomi based around. Usually you look for characters that allow you to force guessing situations for big dmg. Even if the guess is mathematically nowhere near in your favor lol. You're happiest when you have either a 50/50, 33/33/33 or even a 75/25 situation to go crazy with. And you will take big risks to force those situations to come up.
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    Evil MultifariousEvil Multifarious Registered User regular
    edited October 2010
    Dhalsim is so awesome

    I have considered playing him exclusively for a while.

    Evil Multifarious on
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    TIFunkaliciousTIFunkalicious Kicking back in NebraskaRegistered User regular
    edited October 2010
    Bizazedo wrote: »
    Hiryu02 wrote: »
    I find that Blanka and Bison have something in common: They are both tests of your fundamentals and patience.
    100% accurate and why I don't really believe Bison is a top 5 dude. You said it better then I could.

    But, yeah, they really are tests of "Can you block/tech?"

    You can exploit teching. Crouching and blocking/waiting to tech does not guarantee safety. Bison deserves a top spot. EX specials and U2 mean that unless Mr. B doesn't want to be close to you, he's on top of you

    TIFunkalicious on
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    DaebunzDaebunz Registered User regular
    edited October 2010
    Dhalsim is so awesome

    I have considered playing him exclusively for a while.

    You're just trying to make me hate you now.

    Daebunz on
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    Hiryu02Hiryu02 Registered User regular
    edited October 2010
    Bizazedo wrote: »
    Hiryu02 wrote: »
    I find that Blanka and Bison have something in common: They are both tests of your fundamentals and patience.
    100% accurate and why I don't really believe Bison is a top 5 dude. You said it better then I could.

    But, yeah, they really are tests of "Can you block/tech?"

    You can exploit teching. Crouching and blocking/waiting to tech does not guarantee safety. Bison deserves a top spot. EX specials and U2 mean that unless Mr. B doesn't want to be close to you, he's on top of you

    It can be done yes, but if someone is not dumbly mashing on crouch tech every time you come in range and is actually patient it becomes harder to exploit. I've been learning tech frame traps for the first time recently, and while I can get away with it on certain ppl, others I have to bully really hard into being scared of the throw, and only then do I have a chance to land the frame trap.

    Hiryu02 on
    Sev: Your gameplay is the most heavily yomi based around. Usually you look for characters that allow you to force guessing situations for big dmg. Even if the guess is mathematically nowhere near in your favor lol. You're happiest when you have either a 50/50, 33/33/33 or even a 75/25 situation to go crazy with. And you will take big risks to force those situations to come up.
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    TIFunkaliciousTIFunkalicious Kicking back in NebraskaRegistered User regular
    edited October 2010
    well, yeah
    frame trap > tech > tic throw > block > frame trap etc etc

    If they aren't going to tech then you can just throw them for free half the time. Techniques to counter advanced techniques don't work on people who don't use them liberally
    The thing with bison is that while most characters have to work to get into that favorable situation, he's there all day

    TIFunkalicious on
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    Hiryu02Hiryu02 Registered User regular
    edited October 2010
    well, yeah
    frame trap > tech > tic throw > block > frame trap etc etc

    If they aren't going to tech then you can just throw them for free half the time. Techniques to counter advanced techniques don't work on people who don't use them liberally
    The thing with bison is that while most characters have to work to get into that favorable situation, he's there all day

    Of course it's character dependent, but Bison isn't the only one with the capability to get in there. Adon, Vega, Akuma, Chun etc.

    Also depends if you are fighting anyone with an srk or likewise dangerous reversal. I don't think anyone will be walk-up throwing a reversal-happy Rufus, for example.

    Hiryu02 on
    Sev: Your gameplay is the most heavily yomi based around. Usually you look for characters that allow you to force guessing situations for big dmg. Even if the guess is mathematically nowhere near in your favor lol. You're happiest when you have either a 50/50, 33/33/33 or even a 75/25 situation to go crazy with. And you will take big risks to force those situations to come up.
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    BizazedoBizazedo Registered User regular
    edited October 2010
    well, yeah
    frame trap > tech > tic throw > block > frame trap etc etc

    If they aren't going to tech then you can just throw them for free half the time. Techniques to counter advanced techniques don't work on people who don't use them liberally
    The thing with bison is that while most characters have to work to get into that favorable situation, he's there all day

    Sure, but then we quickly enter the "Who cares if terribads get crushed by him? How do the real players handle him?". The real ones can tech his throw attempts and he doesn't have anything scary like a dp to punish a missed tech (yay Ryu).

    I still maintain the best way to handle him is turtle, attack him on knockdown (while not getting U2'd). Then Bison is in a world of pain. It all revolves around fundamentals, which is what Hiryu was saying.

    If you're really good at fundamentals, Bison is a lot less scary. Reaction time helps even more, here.

    Let me back up a step, though, and say I *DO* think he's good....I just think he benefits a bit much in terms of tier by being very even against almost every one and murdering some of the inferior characters, so it inflates him a bit.

    Top 10 I'd say, easily? Top 5.....ehhhhhhhh.

    Bizazedo on
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    LibrarianThorneLibrarianThorne Registered User regular
    edited October 2010
    Bison is an excellent test of your patience and your spacing skills. If you don't have those down pat, Bison will crush you. However, if you can block and wait out pressure Bison's offense tends to come apart. Bison punishes impatience and sloppy play more than almost any other character.

    LibrarianThorne on
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    Evil MultifariousEvil Multifarious Registered User regular
    edited October 2010
    bison is pretty polar if both players know the matchup.

    once bison gets in - and he rarely has trouble unless you're guile or maybe dhalsim - he sticks to you because of his safe, forward-moving pressure and his great normals for stuffing escapes. it can be very frustrating to be locked down like that because most players are used to a back-and-forth flow of play up when you're in close and hitting with bnbs.

    however, once bison is knocked down, regardless of his escapes, there are lots of characters who can consistently apply pressure and keep him on the defensive because he has no anti-air reversal. Ryu doing close-range option select jump-ins will ruin a bison player's day, and bison is usually forced to sit there and block like anyone else or be punished (and often lose an EX from a stuffed escape attempt). this is frustrating for the bison player because he's so mobile and aggressive, and being stuck in one spot on the defensive is grating.

    the test of a bison player, imo, where he'll really show his skill, is how he deals with being put on the defensive and having to seize control of the match again, against someone who knows all his tricks.

    Evil Multifarious on
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    BizazedoBizazedo Registered User regular
    edited October 2010
    I always get mystified when I run into Bison turtles.

    Like, I know why most Bisons turtle against Bison. It makes some sense.

    But, like, watching them do it versus non-Blankas? Ick.

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    Hiryu02Hiryu02 Registered User regular
    edited October 2010
    Maybe it's because I play characters with no guaranteed way to stop Bison escaping, but I can't remember the last time I played a Bison that burned EX to get away from my pressure and he didn't get away clean.

    Hiryu02 on
    Sev: Your gameplay is the most heavily yomi based around. Usually you look for characters that allow you to force guessing situations for big dmg. Even if the guess is mathematically nowhere near in your favor lol. You're happiest when you have either a 50/50, 33/33/33 or even a 75/25 situation to go crazy with. And you will take big risks to force those situations to come up.
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    Evil MultifariousEvil Multifarious Registered User regular
    edited October 2010
    bison can turtle against anyone who needs to get close to do damage. i tend to turtle against zangief, for example, and sometimes abel, although i prefer not to in the latter instance.

    edit: i don't know if abel has any option selects, but if you can bait the escape and use the right normal, you can stuff his escapes. wheel kick or roll + elbow will punish teleport, jump back and fierce punch probably punishes EX psycho out of the corner, any jumping attack will punish EX devil reverse, and just blocking will punish EX scissors.

    Evil Multifarious on
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    Hiryu02Hiryu02 Registered User regular
    edited October 2010
    Jump back HP does not punish EX PC out of the corner, Abel can even get hit out of it at certain distances. Jump back mk might work, but again it's a gamble vs EX PC out of the corner. Plus if you are jumping back in the first place, you are letting Bison out of the corner anyway. He can OS, but its best vs teleport, mostly.

    Thing is, there is no guaranteed thing Abel can do that covers all of Bison's escapes, and if he uses the wrong one, he not only lets Bison out of pressure, but he can take damage in the bargain.

    Hiryu02 on
    Sev: Your gameplay is the most heavily yomi based around. Usually you look for characters that allow you to force guessing situations for big dmg. Even if the guess is mathematically nowhere near in your favor lol. You're happiest when you have either a 50/50, 33/33/33 or even a 75/25 situation to go crazy with. And you will take big risks to force those situations to come up.
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    Evil MultifariousEvil Multifarious Registered User regular
    edited October 2010
    the thing to do when bison is in the corner and has meter is to back up a bit and give yourself reaction time to punish the PC if he does it. that's how i catch a lot of bison players. smart ones will just walk out of the corner, but that means they lose charge and you can go right back in.

    abel doesn't have many downward striking normals and he'd have to jump early and attack late to punish the PC, probably, which isn't practical. adon i am sure could punish the EX PC on reaction.

    i bet abel's U1 or U2 could punish EX psycho crusher out of the corner after it crosses you up.

    Evil Multifarious on
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    BizazedoBizazedo Registered User regular
    edited October 2010
    You shouldn't try to think of a 100% way to stop Bison escaping, it's not possible. You should just make him waste EX.

    As Abel, step kick the hell out of Bison and don't get predictable with your throws (due to EX PC destroying throw attempts).

    If Bison doesn't have EX, go to town and advance mercilessly.

    If Bison tries to NJ you, crouching HP (that's his rising elbow, right?) and U1.

    i bet abel's U1 or U2 could punish EX psycho crusher out of the corner after it crosses you up.

    Yes, I'm not 100%, but I'm pretty sure it can.

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    Hiryu02Hiryu02 Registered User regular
    edited October 2010
    Bizazedo wrote: »
    (due to EX PC destroying throw attempts).

    Unless it's an EX TT throw attempt. /evilgrin

    Hiryu02 on
    Sev: Your gameplay is the most heavily yomi based around. Usually you look for characters that allow you to force guessing situations for big dmg. Even if the guess is mathematically nowhere near in your favor lol. You're happiest when you have either a 50/50, 33/33/33 or even a 75/25 situation to go crazy with. And you will take big risks to force those situations to come up.
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    BizazedoBizazedo Registered User regular
    edited October 2010
    Hiryu02 wrote: »

    Unless it's an EX TT throw attempt. /evilgrin

    Does it catch Bison? Bison has some invulnerability on his EX PC startup. I honestly don't remember being caught in it at close range when the Abel is trying to tick me and TT me.

    Not 100% sure, though.

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    MagicPrimeMagicPrime FiresideWizard Registered User regular
    edited October 2010
    Is it normal to form an attachment to a non-top tier character to the point where you feel weird if you're not playing as them?

    MagicPrime on
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    LibrarianThorneLibrarianThorne Registered User regular
    edited October 2010
    bison is pretty polar if both players know the matchup.

    once bison gets in - and he rarely has trouble unless you're guile or maybe dhalsim - he sticks to you because of his safe, forward-moving pressure and his great normals for stuffing escapes. it can be very frustrating to be locked down like that because most players are used to a back-and-forth flow of play up when you're in close and hitting with bnbs.

    however, once bison is knocked down, regardless of his escapes, there are lots of characters who can consistently apply pressure and keep him on the defensive because he has no anti-air reversal. Ryu doing close-range option select jump-ins will ruin a bison player's day, and bison is usually forced to sit there and block like anyone else or be punished (and often lose an EX from a stuffed escape attempt). this is frustrating for the bison player because he's so mobile and aggressive, and being stuck in one spot on the defensive is grating.

    the test of a bison player, imo, where he'll really show his skill, is how he deals with being put on the defensive and having to seize control of the match again, against someone who knows all his tricks.

    A lot of Bison players don't use teleport to get out of knockdown situations. This baffles me, especially against Ryu/Akuma, because a teleport gets out of most of their tricks and they can't really attack you because they're gonna recover from whatever shenanigans they were doing. EX meter gives him two other potential escape opportunities (EX crusher, EX scissors) but I find in very many situations, especially when facing against pressure after a knockdown, the teleport is such an important tool.

    LibrarianThorne on
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    aBlankaBlank Registered User regular
    edited October 2010
    Bizazedo wrote: »
    Hiryu02 wrote: »

    Unless it's an EX TT throw attempt. /evilgrin

    Does it catch Bison? Bison has some invulnerability on his EX PC startup. I honestly don't remember being caught in it at close range when the Abel is trying to tick me and TT me.

    Not 100% sure, though.

    You can throw Bison out of EX Psycho. It has 13 frames of invulnerability (hitting on the 14th) but doesn't become throw immune until the 30-something frame. You don't even have to EX-TT it, you can regular throw it if you have god-like timing... but generally, if you don't hit him with the grab on exactly the 14th frame, you're going to get hit instead.

    If Abel tries to EX TT right after step kicking, it'll lose to EX psycho.

    In fact, I don't think EX TT makes a lick of difference against Bison's EX Psycho because EX psycho is considered a projectile not a 'hit' attack... and IIRC, abel's EX TT has strike invulnerability not projectile.

    aBlank on
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    aBlankaBlank Registered User regular
    edited October 2010
    bison is pretty polar if both players know the matchup.

    once bison gets in - and he rarely has trouble unless you're guile or maybe dhalsim - he sticks to you because of his safe, forward-moving pressure and his great normals for stuffing escapes. it can be very frustrating to be locked down like that because most players are used to a back-and-forth flow of play up when you're in close and hitting with bnbs.

    however, once bison is knocked down, regardless of his escapes, there are lots of characters who can consistently apply pressure and keep him on the defensive because he has no anti-air reversal. Ryu doing close-range option select jump-ins will ruin a bison player's day, and bison is usually forced to sit there and block like anyone else or be punished (and often lose an EX from a stuffed escape attempt). this is frustrating for the bison player because he's so mobile and aggressive, and being stuck in one spot on the defensive is grating.

    the test of a bison player, imo, where he'll really show his skill, is how he deals with being put on the defensive and having to seize control of the match again, against someone who knows all his tricks.

    A lot of Bison players don't use teleport to get out of knockdown situations. This baffles me, especially against Ryu/Akuma, because a teleport gets out of most of their tricks and they can't really attack you because they're gonna recover from whatever shenanigans they were doing. EX meter gives him two other potential escape opportunities (EX crusher, EX scissors) but I find in very many situations, especially when facing against pressure after a knockdown, the teleport is such an important tool.


    IIRC Ryu/Akuma can option select a tatsu to punish teleport attempts. If Bison is ever without meter and gets untechable KD by a shoto, his only real option is to block. With meter you can sometimes get away with teleport because they'll guess EX devil reverse/psycho and OS a SRK instead.

    aBlank on
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    BizazedoBizazedo Registered User regular
    edited October 2010
    A lot of Bison players don't use teleport to get out of knockdown situations. This baffles me, especially against Ryu/Akuma, because a teleport gets out of most of their tricks and they can't really attack you because they're gonna recover from whatever shenanigans they were doing. EX meter gives him two other potential escape opportunities (EX crusher, EX scissors) but I find in very many situations, especially when facing against pressure after a knockdown, the teleport is such an important tool.

    This is because if they option select hurricane kick, it'll punish teleport every time and put Bison in another knockdown situation. You can get fancy and forward teleport, but that anticipates the hurricane kick, etc etc.

    It's one of the reasons I like fighting shotos, there's lots of if-he-does-this-i'll-do-that-but-if-he-does-this..etc.

    EX meter also gives EX Devil's Reverse to escape. It's one of the safest if we're being honest, but the least aggressive.
    MagicPrime wrote: »
    Is it normal to form an attachment to a non-top tier character to the point where you feel weird if you're not playing as them?

    No, it's normal. I've always used Bison, no matter what. Always.

    I never looked at tiers before SF4.
    aBlank wrote: »
    You can throw Bison out of EX Psycho. It has 13 frames of invulnerability (hitting on the 14th) but doesn't become throw immune until the 30-something frame. You don't even have to EX-TT it, you can regular throw it if you have god-like timing... but generally, if you don't hit him with the grab on exactly the 14th frame, you're going to get hit instead.

    If Abel tries to EX TT right after step kicking, it'll lose to EX psycho.

    In fact, I don't think EX TT makes a lick of difference against Bison's EX Psycho because EX psycho is considered a projectile not a 'hit' attack... and IIRC, abel's EX TT has strike invulnerability not projectile.

    I was hoping we'd bait you out. Welcome, Coach :)

    Yes, I have been thrown out of ALL my Crushers. But, never by Abel when he's trying to tick throw me / step kick me / TT me. I always catch him with EX Crushers.

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