The new forums will be named Coin Return (based on the most recent vote)! You can check on the status and timeline of the transition to the new forums here.
The Guiding Principles and New Rules document is now in effect.
Double standards in modern society
joshofalltrades
Class TraitorSmoke-filled roomRegistered User regular
Class TraitorSmoke-filled roomRegistered User regular
So, I was poking around the web today and came across this video.
What happens when women abuse men in public?
It got me thinking about misandry a lot. Don't get me wrong, misogyny is still a huge problem in our culture, but on the whole, I think we're more aware of it. Misandry is gaining a sort of sinister acceptance in a lot of mainstream society.
For instance, watch any daytime television show where a woman is unsure of who the father of her child is. Typically, she will be welcomed, applauded and comforted for having the courage to come onto national television and tell her story while we wait for the DNA results. The five or six guys that she slept with? Total assholes who may have forced her to have sex, tricked her into intercourse somehow, or, even if outright stated that both parties are equally responsible (rare), are booed at for thinking that there is a chance that they are not the parent, no matter how valid that idea might be.
Maury Povich is a prime example of this, and in a rare near-subversion (quoted because ick I don't watch Maury Povich):
And on Oprah (quoted because I don't watch Oprah either):
I could go on and on about double standards relating to men, but what about women?
Well, I could go on and on about their unfortunate double standards too.
For instance, there seems to be a common misconception that women in positions of power or authority are either PMSing 31 days out of the month (even in February), manipulative or completely incompetent. This is a big one that pisses me off.
The simple fact that there exists a term exclusively for women who are too unattractive to get laid by a Real Man but are so desperate for attention that they'll hang around gay men isn't just offensive, it's ridiculous. And there's no term that applies to men who invert this example, as far as I know.
J.K. Rowling submitted to a demand from her publisher that she use initials so that nobody would know she was a woman, at least at first. Also, Nora Roberts (J.D. Robb), Amantine Aurore Lucile Dupin (George Sand), and very famously
Double standards are not exclusive to genders, but the OP would be huge if I attempted a self-dialog with all of the different types included. I'd rather we discuss them as they come up in discourse.
Can we do anything more than draw attention to these? I think the more we have a dialog about whether these sorts of things are reasonable or not, the more they will be embedded firmly in our conscious mind and not subconsciously accepted.
tl;dr -- What are some double standards in our world today, and how can they be combated?
What happens when women abuse men in public?
It got me thinking about misandry a lot. Don't get me wrong, misogyny is still a huge problem in our culture, but on the whole, I think we're more aware of it. Misandry is gaining a sort of sinister acceptance in a lot of mainstream society.
For instance, watch any daytime television show where a woman is unsure of who the father of her child is. Typically, she will be welcomed, applauded and comforted for having the courage to come onto national television and tell her story while we wait for the DNA results. The five or six guys that she slept with? Total assholes who may have forced her to have sex, tricked her into intercourse somehow, or, even if outright stated that both parties are equally responsible (rare), are booed at for thinking that there is a chance that they are not the parent, no matter how valid that idea might be.
Maury Povich is a prime example of this, and in a rare near-subversion (quoted because ick I don't watch Maury Povich):
It gets worse than that. One episode consisted of a woman who is suspected of cheating on her husband and the idea that the child might not be his. When she comes out she is surprisingly booed. Maury was flabbergasted by the lack of sympathy, asking why they were booing her (with loud declarations of her being a cheater from the audience). Could you imagine this reaction from Maury if the genders were reversed? Seriously, the borderline misandry on the show is infuriating.
And on Oprah (quoted because I don't watch Oprah either):
Several years back on Oprah Winfrey's talk show, a researcher was getting disbelieving catcalls from the (normally very well-behaved) audience when she pointed out that there had to be just about as many women as men cheating in relationships. She asked if they believed there was a pool of a few dozen women all the cheating men shared? She also explicitly described the "When he cheats it's his fault, when she cheats, it's his fault" double standard.
I could go on and on about double standards relating to men, but what about women?
Well, I could go on and on about their unfortunate double standards too.
For instance, there seems to be a common misconception that women in positions of power or authority are either PMSing 31 days out of the month (even in February), manipulative or completely incompetent. This is a big one that pisses me off.
The simple fact that there exists a term exclusively for women who are too unattractive to get laid by a Real Man but are so desperate for attention that they'll hang around gay men isn't just offensive, it's ridiculous. And there's no term that applies to men who invert this example, as far as I know.
J.K. Rowling submitted to a demand from her publisher that she use initials so that nobody would know she was a woman, at least at first. Also, Nora Roberts (J.D. Robb), Amantine Aurore Lucile Dupin (George Sand), and very famously
Nelle
Harper Lee.Double standards are not exclusive to genders, but the OP would be huge if I attempted a self-dialog with all of the different types included. I'd rather we discuss them as they come up in discourse.
Can we do anything more than draw attention to these? I think the more we have a dialog about whether these sorts of things are reasonable or not, the more they will be embedded firmly in our conscious mind and not subconsciously accepted.
tl;dr -- What are some double standards in our world today, and how can they be combated?
joshofalltrades on
0
Posts
There was a recent H/A thread about a fella who got punched by his wife or girlfriend, and one person was arguing that since she was a woman, it wasn't a big deal. I didn't post in it but it turned into a debate. I'll try to dig it up when I get home from work.
xbl - HowYouGetAnts
steam - WeAreAllGeth
Right. The henpecked husband thing is widely played for laughs in movies/TV shows/etc. Try and do the same thing with a woman. Make her husband treat her like she's weak and inefficient, just another one of his children who will never grow up or learn how to take care of herself without his firm hand and guidance.
See how long it takes the feminists to come out of the fucking woodwork.
I think I know the one. Most of the people there seemed pretty reasonable (PotatoNinja is always awesome in H/A, specifically), and Penny Arcade is actually one of the few places I've been on the internet that calls people out on their misandrist bullshit. In the real world though, and other places...
If you listen she says things like "Stop ignoring me" and slaps him while he reads the paper, whereas in the reversed scene she is clearly being prevented from leaving and forced back into the chair. Despite being the one being beaten, in that scene he is still in the position to leave.
I think if you had got the larger woman, and had her do a better job of actually hitting and restraining him and having her say things like 'I'll sleep with whoever I want Steve, you're just here to pay the bills and shut the F$%K up, I'll break your leg again if you don't stop bothering me about this' then people would still just have walked by and many women would still have 'celebrated'.
edit - Oh, and the other thing. The woman (while innefective in this scene) was clearly trying to hurt him. The passers by said "I just assumed he'd cheated on her". That's the really telling thing. That her activity is easily excusable to them, and if they'ed walked up to the guy and he'd said "Oh, her? I'm hitting her because she cheated on me" then noone but the most despicable of bastards would say "Ahh, carry on then"
I'm not sure if this counts, but I absolutely loathe commercials that paints men as the incompetent, bumbling apes.
Edit: Eh, nevermind, I couldn't see the video at work and I'm guessing you're talking more about domestic violence things.
xbl - HowYouGetAnts
steam - WeAreAllGeth
But the problem isn't that women abuse men the exact same way that men abuse women. Women abusing men is often about demoralizing, demeaning, insulting, and belittling. I mean, you hardly ever see a 200 lbs. woman beating the shit out of her 90 lbs. husband in public, but the slumped shoulders, world-weary look and dull eyed men accompanying their wives who talk shit about them to their friends while their husband is right there? Happens all the time, and if you don't notice it, you're not alone. The abuse is different, but it is abuse nonetheless, and the world generally laughs it off, because women can't abuse men, right? Men are bigger, tougher, stronger and thicker-skinned than women; they don't have feelings. And if they do, and are genuinely hurt by the woman? They're wimps or sissies; alternately, they probably deserve it. He probably cheated on her or something.
All I can say is if anyone hit me with a frying pan, I'd do everything possible to make sure they didn't hit me with it a second time, regardless of it the person swinging it had a penis or a vagina.
This reminds me of Tiger Woods, too. She hit him full in the face with a golf club, making him lose two teeth and sending him to the hospital. But let's all joke about it, because he had it coming!
Who says it's not funny? This is one of my favorite Family Guy scenes
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mPewxSel_fo
Oh, my point was actually that women do abuse men in all sorts of ways, it's just that the woman they had abusing the man in that scene was doing such a puny job of it that it didn't seem serious enough to intervene, and that even if they had got someone who could do the abuse seriously enough to make people take it seriously she still would likely have been applauded. I imagine a good test would be to have her say, throw 'Hot' coffee on him. I bet women would have applauded her, and men ignored the situation as they went by.
Mental abuse is indeed very nearly as bad as physical abuse in the long run, and I do indeed notice it.
One that I hate the most is when there's a woman who really wants to get her boyfriend's ass beat. The woman proceeds to yell in public, "He hits me! He tried to rape me! He's sexually assaulting me!" while the boyfriend panics and tries to explain himself when the accusations are going on. If this event happens in a bar you can almost guarantee to have a cut or bruise from something.
It's almost too hard to go on talking about this, I'm just not keen enough to consider all the variables.
Sorry, but slippery slope is a total fallacy. Women and men are equal, I can't think of a single double standard that is there for a good reason off the top of my head.
Well I'd say Andy Capp isn't funny no matter what, but you're being pretty disingenuous if you don't admit that physical strength and weight disparity has a huge impact on whether or not this kind of slapstick is socially accpeted.
A core element of slapstick is that the pain or injury is temporary. When the victim suffers no long lasting harm, the audience can safely laugh at their misfortune without dealing with any ethical dilemmas. The wife isn't viewed as a credible threat to Andy Capp's health, so she can hit him on the head and its a joke.
Pre-emptive disclaimer before the inevitable trolling begins: Hitting people on the head with a rolling pin is bad regardless of your gender.
I actually know a guy who got his ass kicked by 3 or 4 guys because his girlfriend said he beat her. But they are both raging alcoholics so I have no idea what is or isn't true, other than he got his ass kicked hard. Broken ribs, 2 black eyes, broken nose, bruises all over etc.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gxEaWBaP5qk
Of course the reality is even 140 pound woman hits a guy on the head with a rolling pin he's going to be fucking hurt.
Why? Simply because it implies an inherent weakness and inequality of action on the part of women when done upon men. I don't think society cares too much particularly about men being abused by women, and that becomes a wide-spread generalized acknowledgement that women are inferior in intent, if not action, to that of men. And much in the same way society would react to a small child physically or verbally assaulting an adult.
As well it assumes a certain predilection toward stereotypical behavior in women that handwaves away what generally should be considered inappropriate adult behavior, and thus creates a cycle where people begin behaving in that way because they think it's appropriate and other accept it as, "it's just how women are."
My sister in law is a great example of this. A huge walking mess of daddy issues, vanity, and henpecking, and in their brief marriage she and my brother have had a ton of problems already. But my brother just sighs and goes, "Eh, women. Whaddya gonna do?" and soldiers on like it's just the way things are.
Accounting for realistic consequences of a character's actions is like the antithesis of comedy.
In the perfect world I would agree, men and women should be treated equally. But there's such a longstanding cultural and biological difference and influence between sexes that makes it difficult for me to craft the right statements without making me look like a total asshole. When I have more clarity I'll try to make another attempt.
This might be a slow ball, but I can think of double standards for pregnant and not-pregnant women that I feel should be justified. Or if you're on the bus and you see an elderly man and woman who have to stand because there are no seats, should I stay put in my seat or give it to the person who looks the most feeble?
Yeah, I brought up the scenario cause I was listening to Adam Carolla's story about attending a sex party and being stuck with the fat chick. Carolla didn't want to have sex with the fat chick and starts to leave. The chick doesn't like this at all and yells that she was abused by him. He gets jumped and receives a baseball bat to the legs, among other things.
Because he isn't Jackie Gleason?
There's no update on Wikipedia about it so I'm guessing they're still investigating.
But man, maybe this speaks volumes to the OP, but I look at him just taking it from her and all I can think is that he's a pussy for letting a little girl beat him like that.
I'd argue that he's more of a man for leaving without hitting back than a man who would punch her in the face.
Oh, I agree.
One example that comes immediately to mind is the rape scene in Wedding Crashers. It's played for laughs because it's a man being raped by a woman, whereas if a man tied a woman down and forced himself upon her it wouldn't have been funny at all.
Really the best defense against this sort of thing is awareness and discussion. When you see a double standard, point it out and talk about it, without judging the people who uphold it. We just have to deal with these one example at a time.
the "no true scotch man" fallacy.
Anecdotal: I've received a slap or two from girlfriends. I didn't really care that much in a pragmatic sense, because it wasn't a regular thing and it didn't actually hurt. I would ask what she thought would happen if I did the same to her. That put an end to it pretty quickly; they were smart and sane, but anyone can get caught up in a double standard until they're made to question it.
Also when arguing within a relationship, I tend to get calmer (but no less adamant) as the other person gets more worked up. That's got to be frustrating as hell to go up against, heh.
I agree totally with this, controlling oneself is a much bigger display of being a "man." I use quotes because I really think it means he is the better person, not neccesarily a bigger "man." He could have very easily slammed her ass against a wall, but he showed restraint in not doing so, not everyone has the self control to do that.
Yeah both were supposed to be elderly. I would give up my seat for both of them, but what standards would you use to feel justified? Probably just a bad example on my end.
Here's the definition of Double Standard and Single Standard for convenience(cause I keep going back to dictionary.com to see if it qualifies):
This is what I mean by slippery slope, the semantics of each situation can be so different that it can be impossible to justify one or the other.
I'm going to be more hand-holding towards an immigrant student who doesn't know very much English compared to a native student of the country. Of course there could be a point where I'm going to consider both equal, but until I do I'll make sure that one isn't lost more than the other.
I probably shouldn't have even posted in this thread
What the fuck is this? Baiting people is no way to start a debate, son.
Its also objectively stupid, since feminists are very strongly anti DV no matter who is involved, and you'd know that if you were actually interested in looking into this issue instead of getting your opnions off of fucking daytime television.
The lenient treatment meted out to criminal women (in some cases of criminality; women are historically more likely to be declared mentally incompetent by court systems and more heavily punished for nonviolent sexual deviance) is a holdover of patriarchal society. You know, the same society that traditionally holds that a few men at the top of the power pyramid of human society get to do whatever they want, while the men below get to be wage slaves and cannon fodder, and are bought off by being granted the ability to do what they want to the women and children below them?
Talk about a counterproductive fucking statement.
I am the exact same way. I have also had a girl smack me, and said roughly the same thing as you. I put more emphasis on the fact that I didn't think I deserved to be hit, and that no one really deserves to be hit like that.
Somewhat, yes, I agree.
I also think there's an idea that men should be willing to endure suffering. If you don't man up and take it, you're being a weak man.
the "no true scotch man" fallacy.
Whenever I bring up women abusing/raping men, most people I get into the discussion with (mostly on livejournal, most self described feminists who believe in equality) go "Oh, it is a problem, but men abusing women is so much more prevalent than the other way around, so let's focus on that instead." Which boils my blood because my father was beat up by my mother when I was younger (and she even attempted it last year, but I stopped her in her tracks).
There is also the argument that the patriarchy hurts men too, so it really isn't women's fault but the patriarchy. But I'm not sure how that is supposed to work as it seems to me that some forms of feminism tends to push this "Women aren't responsible for their actions because of the patriarchy. Everything they do is influenced by it, and men suffer for it too" ideal.
But when do we break it from the patriarchy and put it on individual blame?
Yeah. Hi, *raises hand*, feminist here, just came out of the woodwork to say "Hey, this is a problem."
the "no true scotch man" fallacy.
Yes and this is reinforced in your peer group as well. Its why men don't seek help when they are getting beaten from their wives. And why its difficult to reach male victims of domestic violence in general. If they can't take it then they are weak and not a man.
pleasepaypreacher.net
The couple in question, Amber and Garry are actually more upsetting because Garry comes from a domestic abuse background. I don't think it's about him being a man, but being used to this kind of behavior and reenacting what he saw (only in his case it was his mom being beaten).
There's also a little truth to it.
If somebody weighs 120 lbs and attacks someone weighting 240 lbs, that's not really an even fight. The video of the crazy women attacking her boyfriend was a worthwhile example: What she's doing is clearly abusive and domestic violence but its also very clear that the guy is not at risk of actual lasting injury. He's not bleeding, bones are not being broken, he's not going to the hospital in an ambulance.
The amount of harm that can be inflicted by an assault is certainly an element of how serious that assault should be taken.
patriarchy hurts men, as has been said over and over here.