Alternately:
Like [voter of given perspective] needed this to vote [normal vote direction]
The governments of the world still have common concerns. This will spark a week of domestic grandstanding for leaders around the world, but nothing will change otherwise.
If anything we already sort of know that Israel has been probably been planning some sort of offensive movement against Iran. It seems more of a horrible inevitability if anything else.
:?
If anything I'm surprised that it's Iran that's widely viewed as the destabilising influence in the Middle East, rather than Israel.
Both are destabising influences in the Middle East. The difference is one has a nuke, the other is working on it.
I mean, it's cool that this guy is all about saving the day by showng corruption and stuff, but this isn't really stuff that needs to be known by the public, is it?
This could really hurt our foreign relations and I am sure every government to every grade school kid talks about people behind their backs, but those people aren't meant to find out and it is arguably worse that the information comes to light.
Yes, such as the fact that they are breaking the law. You are arguing that it's okay for criminals to have anonymity to enable their crimes?
If the laws they are breaking are morally corrupt to begin with, yes.
Anyway, for an example of why we need Wikileaks, from the BBC article:
Germany being warned in 2007 not to enforce arrest warrants for US Central Intelligence Agency officers involved in an operation in which an innocent German citizen with the same name as a suspected militant was abducted and held in Afghanistan
I mean, it's cool that this guy is all about saving the day by showng corruption and stuff, but this isn't really stuff that needs to be known by the public, is it?
This could really hurt our foreign relations and I am sure every government to every grade school kid talks about people behind their backs, but those people aren't meant to find out and it is arguably worse that the information comes to light.
So we shouldn't expect our politicians and public servants to act better than grade schoolers?
HamHamJ on
While racing light mechs, your Urbanmech comes in second place, but only because it ran out of ammo.
# Corruption within the Afghan government, with concerns heightened when a senior official was found to be carrying more than $50m in cash on a foreign trip
# Bargaining to empty the Guantanamo Bay prison camp - including Slovenian diplomats being told to take in a freed prisoner if they wanted to secure a meeting with President Barack Obama
# The very close relationship between Russian PM Vladimir Putin and his Italian counterpart Silvio Berlusconi
# Yemen's president talking to then US Mid-East commander General David Petraeus about attacks on Yemeni al-Qaeda bases and saying: "We'll continue saying the bombs are ours, not yours"
So we shouldn't expect our politicians and public servants to act better than grade schoolers?
Is it the general expectation that people stop acting like people when dealing with other people, when they're hired into a position of public service?
I mean, it's cool that this guy is all about saving the day by showng corruption and stuff, but this isn't really stuff that needs to be known by the public, is it?
This could really hurt our foreign relations and I am sure every government to every grade school kid talks about people behind their backs, but those people aren't meant to find out and it is arguably worse that the information comes to light.
So we shouldn't expect our politicians and public servants to act better than grade schoolers?
Honestly, I think people everywhere does this kind of thing to some extent or another.
As we grow older, we just move past "Dumb poop head" to "Thinskinned authoritarian".
We all have our views on certain people and our own "backroom" name-calling.
It doesn't really need to be made public for no reason.
Edit: The grade-schooler comment was mainly meant to illustrate how all ages/walks do this, not about comparing them in the terms you pointed back.
So far it seems like the shit that is 'putting lives at risk' could more accurately be described as 'damaging foreign relations by revealing the childish way in which US operatives describe foreign leaders, spy on our allies, and act in outright opposition to our stated positions in order to broker power'
Yes, thank you.
Wikileaks may be a tattleteller of sorts but they didn't conjure these phrases up out of thin air. And while any journalist worth his salt will, indeed, tell you "context is everything" no journalist worth his salt is going to pretend that an outright insulting remark like "he's a flabby poo-poo head" has any sort of context that would make such a comment appropriate. Even assuming, for conspiracy theory's sake, that there was an unreported "Kim Jong Il is definitely not a..." phrase before "dessicated fart factory" doesn't make it any better to use those words.
Let me point out again that I am all for airing stuff that actually fingers corruption and possible humn-rights issues, but not things that were never meant for more than 5 ro so people to see on how Kim Jong Il is a fatty.
Let me point out again that I am all for airing stuff that actually fingers corruption and possible humn-rights issues, but not things that were never meant for more than 5 ro so people to see on how Kim Jong Il is a fatty.
It does nothing but hurt both sides.
Really?
Your primary concern in this is that kindergarten level insults got leaked?
Seriously, if a bunch of insults getting thrown around pushes us closer to World War III, I welcome our destruction, because then the Human Race has become a giant, never ending episode of Jerseylicious and doesn't deserve to exist anymore.
Let me point out again that I am all for airing stuff that actually fingers corruption and possible humn-rights issues, but not things that were never meant for more than 5 ro so people to see on how Kim Jong Il is a fatty.
It does nothing but hurt both sides.
Really?
Your primary concern in this is that kindergarten level insults got leaked?
Come on.
You can hand-wave it away all you like, but it hurts relations. Something Obama's been working on since he's gotten elected and one of the few things that seems to have been pushing forward with the least bit of opposition.
But because of these comments that people in mild power have said who enever would have dreamed would get posted on the web (olol), things could backslide.
Do you really not think foreign papers will run away with these headlines and cause an uproar amongst their populace?
It will be pretty bad.
Edit: Humans are petty and vain, Drez - news at 11.
Seriously, if a bunch of insults getting thrown around pushes us closer to World War III, I welcome our destruction, because then the Human Race has become a giant, never ending episode of Jerseylicious and doesn't deserve to exist anymore.
Don't say that. People gettin mad over nothin yo. :P
¶ Bargaining to empty the Guantánamo Bay prison: When American diplomats pressed other countries to resettle detainees, they became reluctant players in a State Department version of “Let’s Make a Deal.” Slovenia was told to take a prisoner if it wanted to meet with President Obama, while the island nation of Kiribati was offered incentives worth millions of dollars to take in Chinese Muslim detainees, cables from diplomats recounted. The Americans, meanwhile, suggested that accepting more prisoners would be “a low-cost way for Belgium to attain prominence in Europe.”
¶ Mixed records against terrorism: Saudi donors remain the chief financiers of Sunni militant groups like Al Qaeda, and the tiny Persian Gulf state of Qatar, a generous host to the American military for years, was the “worst in the region” in counterterrorism efforts, according to a State Department cable last December. Qatar’s security service was “hesitant to act against known terrorists out of concern for appearing to be aligned with the U.S. and provoking reprisals,” the cable said.
The diplomats also noted that while Mr. Putin enjoys supremacy over all other public figures in Russia, he is undermined by an unmanageable bureaucracy that often ignores his edicts.
For instance, it has been previously reported that the Yemeni government has sought to cover up the American role in missile strikes against the local branch of Al Qaeda. But a cable’s fly-on-the-wall account of a January meeting between the Yemeni president, Ali Abdullah Saleh, and Gen. David H. Petraeus, then the American commander in the Middle East, is nonetheless breathtaking.
“We’ll continue saying the bombs are ours, not yours,” Mr. Saleh said, according to the cable sent by the American ambassador, prompting Yemen’s deputy prime minister to “joke that he had just ‘lied’ by telling Parliament” that Yemeni forces had carried out the strikes.
Mr. Saleh, who at other times resisted American counterterrorism requests, was in a lighthearted mood. The authoritarian ruler of a conservative Muslim country, Mr. Saleh complains of smuggling from nearby Djibouti, but tells General Petraeus that his concerns are drugs and weapons, not whiskey, “provided it’s good whiskey.”
Likewise, press reports detailed the unhappiness of the Libyan leader, Col. Muammar el-Qaddafi, when he was not permitted to set up his tent in Manhattan or to visit ground zero during a United Nations session last year.
The bottom line is that people are going to be people regardless of what position of power they are in.
We tell eachother lies and such everyday and it works because people on each side don't find out, or they even know but it isn't made public to their friends and neighbors.
Think of how it would affect the people around you if that kind of personal shit got out?
People would be upset and friendships could very well be lost.
That seems to be happening on a worldwide level.
At least for the US.
Edit: And their allies apparently. Ugh.
Let me point out again that I am all for airing stuff that actually fingers corruption and possible humn-rights issues, but not things that were never meant for more than 5 ro so people to see on how Kim Jong Il is a fatty.
It does nothing but hurt both sides.
Really?
Your primary concern in this is that kindergarten level insults got leaked?
Come on.
You can hand-wave it away all you like, but it hurts relations. Something Obama's been working on since he's gotten elected and one of the few things that seems to have been pushing forward with the least bit of opposition.
But because of these comments that people in mild power have said who enever would have dreamed would get posted on the web (olol), things could backslide.
Do you really not think foreign papers will run away with these headlines and cause an uproar amongst their populace?
It will be pretty bad.
Edit: Humans are petty and vain, Drez - news at 11.
Do I think the media in every country is sensationalist? Yes.
Do I think the unwashed masses of most countries eat up the sensationalism the media feeds them? Yes.
Do I think that will continue indefinitely? No, I do not.
The fact is, neither you nor I know what the blowout will be. I think there will be little to none. You think it will be substantial. You dismiss my opinion as "hand waving," but my opinion is just as plausible as yours, so your dismissal is denied.
What's so bad about that Yemen stuff. US striking alQaeda but Yemen taking the blame/credit?
The Yemeni government doesn't want its people to be actively aware of the fact that US forces are conducting strikes against al-qaeda in Yemen. They allow the strikes because they don't like terrorists in their country either. This makes things harder for both the US and Yemen because Yemens population is generally made up of ignorant muslims with an extremely unfavorable view of the US.
I believe that it is better to be worried that potential issues could arise than say "Ah, it'll all be ok"
Okay, so sit there and be worried? Should I thank you for doing your part to heal our nation and our diplomatic ties to other nations by sitting there worried? Clearly being sedentary in a perpetual state of panic and fear is superior to being sedentary in a state of calm until something bad actually does happen.
You are kind of being obnoxious here. It's one thing to say "I think it's reasonable to be worried" and it's another thing to tell me that it's actually "better to be worried." Better how?
• How the hacker attacks which forced Google to quit China in January were orchestrated by a senior member of the Politburo who typed his own name into the global version of the search engine and found articles criticising him personally.
• The extraordinarily close relationship between Vladimir Putin, the Russian prime minister, and Silvio Berlusconi, the Italian prime minister, which is causing intense US suspicion. Cables detail allegations of "lavish gifts", lucrative energy contracts and the use by Berlusconi of a "shadowy" Russian-speaking Italian go-between.
• Allegations that Russia and its intelligence agencies are using mafia bosses to carry out criminal operations, with one cable reporting that the relationship is so close that the country has become a "virtual mafia state".
Man this stuff is great. The world is run by assholes. If this is the kind of stuff that's leaked then IMO it would helpful if less of this happened. But I doubt it. Reading through it makes me feel like a spy. 8-)
I believe that it is better to be worried that potential issues could arise than say "Ah, it'll all be ok"
Okay, so sit there and be worried? Should I thank you for doing your part to heal our nation and our diplomatic ties to other nations by sitting there worried? Clearly being sedentary in a perpetual state of panic and fear is superior to being sedentary in a state of calm until something bad actually does happen.
You are kind of being obnoxious here. It's one thing to say "I think it's reasonable to be worried" and it's another thing to tell me that it's better to be worried. Better how?
We have a semantics issue here, Drez.
I agree with the reasonable worry part, perhaps I should have worded my post better.
It seemed like hand-waving on your part because you completely dismissed it as something that wouldn't be an issue in the slightest.
I believe that it is better to be worried that potential issues could arise than say "Ah, it'll all be ok"
Okay, so sit there and be worried? Should I thank you for doing your part to heal our nation and our diplomatic ties to other nations by sitting there worried? Clearly being sedentary in a perpetual state of panic and fear is superior to being sedentary in a state of calm until something bad actually does happen.
You are kind of being obnoxious here. It's one thing to say "I think it's reasonable to be worried" and it's another thing to tell me that it's better to be worried. Better how?
We have a semantics issue here, Drez.
I agree with the reasonable worry part, perhaps I should have worded my post better.
It seemed like hand-waving on your part because you completely dismissed it as something that wouldn't be an issue in the slightest.
Ultimately, I don't think it will be. I hope it won't be. If it is, I will be wrong, and I will have lost a little more faith in human beings.
The point is, the insults don't really matter. Should the US diplomats have engaged in such puerile behavior? No. Do the nations - including the diplomats, leaders, and citizens - that were criticized so childishly in these insults have a right to get upset about it? Yes.
But is it actually reasonable for our entire diplomatic relationship with a nation to deteriorate because of a tactless description? No. And I don't think the leaders of any of these nations are really that stupid. So there will be some temporary condemnation of the US's tactless gossip, fueled at first by these governments (they have to, it's important for their national diplomacy) and then carried by the media for longer than the governments or citizens would actually care otherwise. And then it will die down, because ultimately a handful of insulting descriptions don't matter.
Are people vain? Yep. Sure. Are they so vain that we are going to draw swords over it or stop being friends because of it? I seriously doubt it.
The more likely problem then chilled foreign relations, as pointed out a few pages ago, is that reports will no longer be frank or truthful. Or less so anyway.
The assumption that tomorrow, they could be public will lead to people talking diplomatically instead of accurately and degrade inter-government communication.
Most of the descriptions of foreign politicians and the like aren't "childish", they are truthful. Just the kind of truthful that one doesn't say publicly.
Just skimming over the descriptions and such, it seems for every piece of useful information, there's like 2 pieces of pointless information released to no positive purpose.
Just skimming over the descriptions and such, it seems for every piece of useful information, there's like 2 pieces of pointless information released to no positive purpose.
If Wikileaks was the ones deciding what was or was not important enough, they would just end up as corrupt as the mainstream media.
HamHamJ on
While racing light mechs, your Urbanmech comes in second place, but only because it ran out of ammo.
those assertions of european politicians are pretty much spot on
you'll be hard-pressed to find anyone here in germany that disagrees on their views on merkel and westerwave
Just skimming over the descriptions and such, it seems for every piece of useful information, there's like 2 pieces of pointless information released to no positive purpose.
If Wikileaks was the ones deciding what was or was not important enough, they would just end up as corrupt as the mainstream media.
Um ... they ARE the ones deciding what is and isn't important enough to release.
those assertions of european politicians are pretty much spot on
you'll be hard-pressed to find anyone here in germany that disagrees on their views on merkel and westerwave
The more likely problem then chilled foreign relations, as pointed out a few pages ago, is that reports will no longer be frank or truthful. Or less so anyway.
The assumption that tomorrow, they could be public will lead to people talking diplomatically instead of accurately and degrade inter-government communication.
Most of the descriptions of foreign politicians and the like aren't "childish", they are truthful. Just the kind of truthful that one doesn't say publicly.
Just skimming over the descriptions and such, it seems for every piece of useful information, there's like 2 pieces of pointless information released to no positive purpose.
Being tactless is childish.
Please explain to me the diplomatic utility in referring to a foreign leader as a "flabby old chap"? I don't think there is anything wrong is suggesting that a particular leader is vain or alcoholic, if you're going to assert that these things make diplomacy or working with said individual a difficult matter. But "flabby old chap"? I have no love for Kim Jong-il, but I stand by my assertion that calling him a "flabby old chap" in any context, but especially a diplomatic or political one, is childish.
Please show me how it isn't. Also, please show me how such tactless "frankness" is a value-added freedom in our diplomatic dealings?
If this leak chills all that baby crap, I say good riddance.
those assertions of european politicians are pretty much spot on
you'll be hard-pressed to find anyone here in germany that disagrees on their views on merkel and westerwave
Yeah but to jump on to the other side of the argument, that's not the point, is it? I mean, it's one thing to insult your own country, your own government, your own leaders, but it's another thing when some other country is doing it.
It's like mom and dad. How many people will tirelessly argue with or complain about their own parents but risk going to jail for assault if some random stranger makes a comment about them? Too many, I'm afraid.
Just skimming over the descriptions and such, it seems for every piece of useful information, there's like 2 pieces of pointless information released to no positive purpose.
If Wikileaks was the ones deciding what was or was not important enough, they would just end up as corrupt as the mainstream media.
Um ... they ARE the ones deciding what is and isn't important enough to release.
Their current policy, AFAIK, is to pretty much publish everything they are given.
HamHamJ on
While racing light mechs, your Urbanmech comes in second place, but only because it ran out of ammo.
Posts
Alternately:
Like [voter of given perspective] needed this to vote [normal vote direction]
The governments of the world still have common concerns. This will spark a week of domestic grandstanding for leaders around the world, but nothing will change otherwise.
What of the Pentagon Papers? They certainly embarrassed a few, and, by your extension, chilled the intra-government discourse.
Was their being leaked a catastrophe?
:?
Both are destabising influences in the Middle East. The difference is one has a nuke, the other is working on it.
I mean, it's cool that this guy is all about saving the day by showng corruption and stuff, but this isn't really stuff that needs to be known by the public, is it?
This could really hurt our foreign relations and I am sure every government to every grade school kid talks about people behind their backs, but those people aren't meant to find out and it is arguably worse that the information comes to light.
If the laws they are breaking are morally corrupt to begin with, yes.
Anyway, for an example of why we need Wikileaks, from the BBC article:
:x
So we shouldn't expect our politicians and public servants to act better than grade schoolers?
As we grow older, we just move past "Dumb poop head" to "Thinskinned authoritarian".
We all have our views on certain people and our own "backroom" name-calling.
It doesn't really need to be made public for no reason.
Edit: The grade-schooler comment was mainly meant to illustrate how all ages/walks do this, not about comparing them in the terms you pointed back.
Yes, thank you.
Wikileaks may be a tattleteller of sorts but they didn't conjure these phrases up out of thin air. And while any journalist worth his salt will, indeed, tell you "context is everything" no journalist worth his salt is going to pretend that an outright insulting remark like "he's a flabby poo-poo head" has any sort of context that would make such a comment appropriate. Even assuming, for conspiracy theory's sake, that there was an unreported "Kim Jong Il is definitely not a..." phrase before "dessicated fart factory" doesn't make it any better to use those words.
Really, the man needs to go.
It does nothing but hurt both sides.
Really?
Your primary concern in this is that kindergarten level insults got leaked?
Come on.
But because of these comments that people in mild power have said who enever would have dreamed would get posted on the web (olol), things could backslide.
Do you really not think foreign papers will run away with these headlines and cause an uproar amongst their populace?
It will be pretty bad.
Edit: Humans are petty and vain, Drez - news at 11.
Don't say that. People gettin mad over nothin yo. :P
We tell eachother lies and such everyday and it works because people on each side don't find out, or they even know but it isn't made public to their friends and neighbors.
Think of how it would affect the people around you if that kind of personal shit got out?
People would be upset and friendships could very well be lost.
That seems to be happening on a worldwide level.
At least for the US.
Edit: And their allies apparently. Ugh.
Do I think the media in every country is sensationalist? Yes.
Do I think the unwashed masses of most countries eat up the sensationalism the media feeds them? Yes.
Do I think that will continue indefinitely? No, I do not.
The fact is, neither you nor I know what the blowout will be. I think there will be little to none. You think it will be substantial. You dismiss my opinion as "hand waving," but my opinion is just as plausible as yours, so your dismissal is denied.
The Yemeni government doesn't want its people to be actively aware of the fact that US forces are conducting strikes against al-qaeda in Yemen. They allow the strikes because they don't like terrorists in their country either. This makes things harder for both the US and Yemen because Yemens population is generally made up of ignorant muslims with an extremely unfavorable view of the US.
The idea that everything be transparent is naive.
There are good lies and there are bad lies, just like *GASP* real life!
Okay, so sit there and be worried? Should I thank you for doing your part to heal our nation and our diplomatic ties to other nations by sitting there worried? Clearly being sedentary in a perpetual state of panic and fear is superior to being sedentary in a state of calm until something bad actually does happen.
You are kind of being obnoxious here. It's one thing to say "I think it's reasonable to be worried" and it's another thing to tell me that it's actually "better to be worried." Better how?
Man this stuff is great. The world is run by assholes. If this is the kind of stuff that's leaked then IMO it would helpful if less of this happened. But I doubt it. Reading through it makes me feel like a spy. 8-)
I agree with the reasonable worry part, perhaps I should have worded my post better.
It seemed like hand-waving on your part because you completely dismissed it as something that wouldn't be an issue in the slightest.
Ultimately, I don't think it will be. I hope it won't be. If it is, I will be wrong, and I will have lost a little more faith in human beings.
The point is, the insults don't really matter. Should the US diplomats have engaged in such puerile behavior? No. Do the nations - including the diplomats, leaders, and citizens - that were criticized so childishly in these insults have a right to get upset about it? Yes.
But is it actually reasonable for our entire diplomatic relationship with a nation to deteriorate because of a tactless description? No. And I don't think the leaders of any of these nations are really that stupid. So there will be some temporary condemnation of the US's tactless gossip, fueled at first by these governments (they have to, it's important for their national diplomacy) and then carried by the media for longer than the governments or citizens would actually care otherwise. And then it will die down, because ultimately a handful of insulting descriptions don't matter.
Are people vain? Yep. Sure. Are they so vain that we are going to draw swords over it or stop being friends because of it? I seriously doubt it.
The assumption that tomorrow, they could be public will lead to people talking diplomatically instead of accurately and degrade inter-government communication.
Most of the descriptions of foreign politicians and the like aren't "childish", they are truthful. Just the kind of truthful that one doesn't say publicly.
Just skimming over the descriptions and such, it seems for every piece of useful information, there's like 2 pieces of pointless information released to no positive purpose.
If Wikileaks was the ones deciding what was or was not important enough, they would just end up as corrupt as the mainstream media.
you'll be hard-pressed to find anyone here in germany that disagrees on their views on merkel and westerwave
Ahh, so more secrecy. The exact outcome everyone wanted.
Um ... they ARE the ones deciding what is and isn't important enough to release.
I wish they'd done an assessment of Cowen.
"God, he's an insult to pig farmers everywhere."
Being tactless is childish.
Please explain to me the diplomatic utility in referring to a foreign leader as a "flabby old chap"? I don't think there is anything wrong is suggesting that a particular leader is vain or alcoholic, if you're going to assert that these things make diplomacy or working with said individual a difficult matter. But "flabby old chap"? I have no love for Kim Jong-il, but I stand by my assertion that calling him a "flabby old chap" in any context, but especially a diplomatic or political one, is childish.
Please show me how it isn't. Also, please show me how such tactless "frankness" is a value-added freedom in our diplomatic dealings?
If this leak chills all that baby crap, I say good riddance.
Yeah but to jump on to the other side of the argument, that's not the point, is it? I mean, it's one thing to insult your own country, your own government, your own leaders, but it's another thing when some other country is doing it.
It's like mom and dad. How many people will tirelessly argue with or complain about their own parents but risk going to jail for assault if some random stranger makes a comment about them? Too many, I'm afraid.
Their current policy, AFAIK, is to pretty much publish everything they are given.