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To slip the surly bonds of Earth [Flight Lessons]
Mr Ray
Sarcasm sphereRegistered User regular
Sarcasm sphereRegistered User regular
So it has occured to be recently that, being 25, I should probably start thinking about getting to work on the whole "things to do before I die" list.
One of these is to become a pilot.
Let me start by saying I don't care what it is I fly; planes, helicopters, hell i'd settle for a blimp if I thought there were many blimp piloting lessons about. You can probably see where this is going though, I have no idea where to start. I understand that the first step of this process is probably "aquire a big pile of money". I'm doing pretty well on that one, I've got a nice chunk of cash saved up, but I have no idea what sort of scale I need to be thinking on. Likely tens-of-thousands, and I'm prepared to accept that, but I'd also like to know what other people have had to shell out for their lessons / licences.
I'm vaugely of a few things, some of which may be completely wrong, so let me list what I think I know, and hopefully people in the know can correct the parts that are wrong:
- You need to have good unaided eyesight
I may be fucked on this one, as my eyesight is terrible. On the other hand, I've flown with a helicopter pilot who was the spitting image of Gordon Freeman, so this can't be a universal rule.
- You need to log a certain amount of hours before you can take your test
Fine, I'm willing to take the time and effort it will take to do this thing. Sounds like 48 hours to pass your "General flying progress test" which lets you take passengers, although I'm confused about the section of this site which says you need 48 hours for your progress test... and 24 for your private license. Is that 48 logged hours + 24 hours = 72 logged hours? It sounds like it means 24 hours non-stop, but that can't be right.
- You need to log a certain amount of hours per year to keep your license
Again, fine.
.. thats actually basically all I know, actually.
I'm not necessarily interested in a job as a commerical airline pilot, but if things go well who knows. I'd be quite willing to take and pay for whatever tertiary eductation I'd need in that case.
I've seen "starter packages" ranging from $150 to $1000, but I doubt either of them provide anything beyond a student license (which pretty much requires a medical and nothing else). I need to know how much I can expect to spend for enough lessons to get me my private pilot's license.
Then of course there's the crate itself. Can you rent planes once you get your license? Is this common? How much flying would you have to do for it to be worth buying your own?
So basically, I have a million questions, and need someone who's been through this process to talk me through some of it.
I'd likely be flying from Essendon Airport (in Australia). On that note, that's the other thing I need to know. If I get a private license in Aus, will my license be usable in other countries, specifically the UK? And likewise if I get halfway through my lessons and move back to the UK, will any of my Aus flight hours count?
I feel like this was a big ramble, and it probably was, so I'm going to let the people who've been patient enough to make it this far tell me what's what now.
One of these is to become a pilot.
Let me start by saying I don't care what it is I fly; planes, helicopters, hell i'd settle for a blimp if I thought there were many blimp piloting lessons about. You can probably see where this is going though, I have no idea where to start. I understand that the first step of this process is probably "aquire a big pile of money". I'm doing pretty well on that one, I've got a nice chunk of cash saved up, but I have no idea what sort of scale I need to be thinking on. Likely tens-of-thousands, and I'm prepared to accept that, but I'd also like to know what other people have had to shell out for their lessons / licences.
I'm vaugely of a few things, some of which may be completely wrong, so let me list what I think I know, and hopefully people in the know can correct the parts that are wrong:
- You need to have good unaided eyesight
I may be fucked on this one, as my eyesight is terrible. On the other hand, I've flown with a helicopter pilot who was the spitting image of Gordon Freeman, so this can't be a universal rule.
- You need to log a certain amount of hours before you can take your test
Fine, I'm willing to take the time and effort it will take to do this thing. Sounds like 48 hours to pass your "General flying progress test" which lets you take passengers, although I'm confused about the section of this site which says you need 48 hours for your progress test... and 24 for your private license. Is that 48 logged hours + 24 hours = 72 logged hours? It sounds like it means 24 hours non-stop, but that can't be right.
- You need to log a certain amount of hours per year to keep your license
Again, fine.
.. thats actually basically all I know, actually.
I'm not necessarily interested in a job as a commerical airline pilot, but if things go well who knows. I'd be quite willing to take and pay for whatever tertiary eductation I'd need in that case.
I've seen "starter packages" ranging from $150 to $1000, but I doubt either of them provide anything beyond a student license (which pretty much requires a medical and nothing else). I need to know how much I can expect to spend for enough lessons to get me my private pilot's license.
Then of course there's the crate itself. Can you rent planes once you get your license? Is this common? How much flying would you have to do for it to be worth buying your own?
So basically, I have a million questions, and need someone who's been through this process to talk me through some of it.
I'd likely be flying from Essendon Airport (in Australia). On that note, that's the other thing I need to know. If I get a private license in Aus, will my license be usable in other countries, specifically the UK? And likewise if I get halfway through my lessons and move back to the UK, will any of my Aus flight hours count?
I feel like this was a big ramble, and it probably was, so I'm going to let the people who've been patient enough to make it this far tell me what's what now.
Mr Ray on
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This discussion has been closed.
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1 - Eyesight. - I wear glasses for driving, and wore them for flying. I also had 2 buddies in my flight classes that couldnt see 2 feet without glasses and had no problems flying. One even went on to be a commercial pilot. The only time I have heard of it being an issue is fighter pilots.
2 - I dont remember there being a mandatory number before taking the test, but your flight instructor is not going to let you take it till he feels you are ready to take it. I think I remember getting mine around the 50 hours mark, but I had friends that still didnt have theres at 80 hours. Depending on how fast you learn and your flight instructor is the real factors.
3. Money - Im sure rates have changed, but where I was flying out of, it was right around $100 an hour to rent the plane. I do not however know how much flight instructor fees were. I dont know if this included fuel or not.
4. I had to pass the ground exam before I could start flight training. This involves learning things like aerodynamics, weight and balance, density altitude and a lot of other math heavy stuff. You will probably want to look into ground school on top of everything else you have to think about.
5. I had to have a flight physical before I could fly. This was kinda like a regular physical, but with a lot more tests. There were some weird balance tests and other things.
Something I will add is that even once you get your license, the costs dont really go down. To have your license remain valid you have to continually fly. You have to make X (X used to equal 3) full take offs and landing every 90 days to carry passengers. You have to have a flight medical every 2 years. If you want to move into IFR(instrument only) flying, or multi-engine, its even more time and cost, because you have to get certified for each and every different aircraft you want to fly.
I work in the aviation field, but on the maintenance side of things, so there isn't a lot of advice I can offer. But I can say that we get a -lot- of Aussie pilots here in Canada. So I bet that transferring licenses between countries, at least within the Commonwealth if nothing else, isn't terribly difficult. The only other suggestion I have is stick with fixed wing; learning to fly a helicopter is going to be well outside your budget. The average cost I hear for guys who learn on fixed wing, like a basic Cessna, is somewhere around $10-20k all in. Most of the helicopter pilots I work with have spent around $80k, and that's gone up more in the last few years.
Limed because if this is your goal, he is 1000% right. You pretty much have to live your life in an airplane for quite awhile before you will even be considered for a commercial job.
I also wanted to add that I remember there being a "recreational" type of license available. It was a license that required much less time to get, but limited your range and altitude(as well as other restrictions I dont remember). It was (explained to me anyway)for like farmers that owned there own planes/air strips and wanted to be able to fly around the area for crop dusting, or surveying, etc.
In the US they have pilots clubs. You pay a yearly fee for maintenance/housing of the planes you fly. You then pay an hourly fee for whatever plane your using and take it where you need to go. The hourly fee is only for the exact time your in the air, not any of the time the plane is sitting on the ground in a hanger. Some times you don't need to bring it back you just leave it at the airport you flew to and pick up a different plane next when you come back. http://www.pattayapilotsclub.com/index.html
http://www.glenndale.net/
Home Inspection and Wind Mitigation
http://www.FairWindInspections.com/
In my experience, vision requirements are based on corrected vision. It looks like there are some uncorrected limits but they look pretty permissive. As far as your license being recognized internationally, I believe most countries will issue a license based on having one somewhere else after testing you on their specific regulations. As far as the hours requirements, the page you linked is pretty confusing about that.
The best thing I can suggest is asking the flight school you're looking at, and probably a few others too. They should be happy to help and know where to find the answers to anything they don't know. And if you do start taking lessons, make sure you like the instructor. Most instructors are great people, but there are some who are just looking to build up their hours and don't care about your success as much as they should. If you get one, change instructors. It sucks hearing about someone that had a bad experience with an instructor give up on flying.
And you shouldn't have any trouble renting a plane once you've got your license. At least in the US renting is much more common than owning your own plane.
Medical: Vision must be correctable to 20/40. Some conditions like diabetes or high blood pressure will require a waiver from the FAA, but most people can get a basic medical no problem. Only an Aviation Medical Examiner can issue it, and I believe they last 5 years if you're under 40.
Hours: In most cases you must log 40 hours, of which 10 must be solo, 20 with an instructor, and the remaining 10 can be mixed between the two.
Hours per year: Nope. In order to carry passengers, you have to have 3 takeoffs and landings in the last 90 days. Every 24 months you have to have a flight review with an instructor in order to use the license, unless you've passed a checkride for something like an instrument rating in that time.
Cost: I'd say about $10k for your private, which lets you carry passengers in most single engine general aviation planes, day or night. If you're in a part of the country where you can rent for cheap and only need the minimum of hours you might get closer to $5k, but it's not common.
Another option is the sport pilot license. It only requires 20 hours, but you're limited to lighter airplanes with no more than 2 seats during daytime hours. Think Piper Cub type airplanes, with the Cessna 162 being a new plane specifically designed for this category. To use sport pilot privileges you do not need an FAA medical. If you weren't denied a medical, you can self certify that you're fit to fly if you have a drivers license. I'm not sure what kind of cost you'd be looking at for this.
In addition to the hours you need in the air, you'll need ground instruction. You can get the material and teach yourself, work with your instructor, or take a group ground school depending on what's available in your area.
I would avoid this licence unless you literally fit that description at the end of the quote, as I don't believe that license lets you fly into or out of an airport with a tower.
Just food for thought, I THINK to stay current with your license you have to fly at least something like 30 hours a year (at least in the US). At ~$100 an hour if you're renting a plane, that's 3000 dollars at the absolute barest minimum every year. It's not a cheap hobby, but I'm sure you understand that already.
I remember thinking it was an out of reach dream once too 'til I started my first real professional job and it seemed like every man, woman, dog, and pet hedgehog had a pilot's license.
Anyways, in the US I think you need a minimum of 15 hours before you can solo, and then maybe 50 before you can take the license test? I'm not really sure but that may be ballpark right and probably ballpark right for Australia.
My two cents, you want to avoid long stretches between lessons, so I'd suggest spending the next year or however long it takes saving up enough money before you start. Somebody up above quoted 10-20k for a Cessna, but that seems high to me. 10k I think would be the upper limit. It is highly variable though, I want to say a reasonable expectation is like 20-30 more hours than the minimum before you get that license.
That's what I was referring to as a "recreational" license. I knew it had a different name, just couldnt remember it.
This realisation was what made me want to pursue this further.
It sounds like the steepest requirement would be the whole "3 takeoffs in 90 days" to carry passengers. That's one a month, which could be pricey.
I figured I should do that. Luckily for me the nearest small airport is really close. I'm going to put this on hold in case I get any lessons for christmas, but my new year's resolution is definitely going to be to make some progress on this. It sounds like another major problem is going to be instructor availability; unsuprisingly it seems weekend lessons get booked out fast, and there's only so many planes that can take off at once.
And yes, just three takeoffs would be all you need. I don't think the number of passengers matters.
I believe there's also a rule on the number of hours you need as well to keep your license. I'm looking now, but I can't find it. It's something like 12 hours per 3 month period.
http://www.faa.gov/library/manuals/
http://www.faa.gov/regulations_policies/handbooks_manuals/aircraft/airplane_handbook/
http://www.faa.gov/library/manuals/aviation/pilot_handbook/
Private is basically extended use of an airplane for your own person. Like the difference between driving your own car, and driving a semi truck.
You drive your car for yourself to get around.
You drive a semi for other people, doing work for them. You need other certification to do this.
Recreational is like go-karting, where you do it every once in a while for S&G and because it's fun.
First off, to all the people in the thread suggesting the Recreational Pilot licence: I know you are well meaning, but please stop. Rec Pilot is a dead end - you have to do 80 percent of the stuff for Private Pilot anyway, and the restrictions are onerous. Of the thousands of licensed general aviation pilots in the US, only 800 or so hold a Rec Pilot license.
First, to be a Private Pilot, you must hold a Third Class Airman Medical Certificate. If you're in decent health, this shouldn't be hard to get. Furthermore, most medical conditions can be waived by the FAA. The only ones that can't are ones that could lead to the pilot being incapacitated, like diabetes.
Second, you'll need to pass the ground exam. A good ground school plus study will prep you. The ground test will cover all aspects of flying, including weather, aerodynamics, airport operations, navigation,and more.
Third, you'll need 40 hours of flight time as a student pilot. 20 of those hours must be under dual instruction with a Certified Flight Instructor. 10 must be solo. In addition, you must complete 3 hours each of night and instrument instruction. Finally,you will have to complete a number of cross-country trips. One of these is a "long" trip between three other destination airports, with one leg having a length of more than 50 nautical miles, and a total light of over 150 n.m.
Finally, once you meet those requirements and your CFI signs off, you can take your checkride. This is the aviation equivalent of a driving test, where an FAA tester will confirm you are a safe pilot. Once you pass, you will be a Private Pilot, and can now act as pilot in command of a plane with passengers. You may not be paid to fly, but you can split the cost, provided that certain guidelines are followed.
And yes, I do keep a FAR/AIM within reach of my computer. I have been known to get bored enough to actually just sit and read it...
EDIT: I don't want to get too off topic, but since I "love" FAA legal interpretations so much:
IANAL, but I interpret that as unless I'm already planning on going somewhere for the same reason, if someone asks me to give them a ride somewhere to do something, I can't accept anything from them if I do. Of course that's a decision every PIC has to make depending on the circumstances, but I'd rather be safe than sorry.
Also, you will never lose your license. What you can lose is currency. Once you lose your currency, you'll need to re-establish it.before you can fly with passengers. This is done by executing three landings. Also, day and night currency are seperate.
Also, there are two endorsements to think about. The Complex Airframe endorsement means you can fly a plane with retractable landing gear and a variable pitch propeller. The High Performance Airframe endorsement allows you to operate a plane that has engines that can produce over 200 hp.
Down the line, I might want to fly to Sydney where a friend of mine lives; its about 500 miles. My questions are:
1. Is that a do-able distance in a small prop aircraft?
2. What stage of the certification process would I have to be at to make the flight by myself?
3. Would I be able to fly my friend back and forth, assuming its strictly on a "you don't need to pay me, but if you pay for all my drinks tonight I might do this again some time" basis?
1: A lot of them could do it nonstop, but I'd probably plan on a fuel stop.
2: Someone more familiar with Australian regulations will have to answer this.
3: In the US the FAA would probably have a problem with that, especially worded that way. You'd have to be clear he couldn't in any way compensate you for the flights.
Aviation is a lot more standardized than driving is, even on the general aviation side. In fact, its possible to operate as a pilot abroad with a FAA licence. That said, you'll need to learn the.rules of the road where you are.
As for the questions:
1: Depends on a lot of factors. And to become a pilot, you'll be required to make that determination.
2: In theory, a flight instructor could sign you off to do so as soon as they felt you could do a solo cross-country. In reality, its unlikely they would.
3: Sure. Just be aware of bottle to throttle rules.
It's important that the OP do his own research though, because of things like this:
One thing about flying professionally though: from what I understand (based on talking with family friends who are airline pilots) it's a pretty tough road. You spend a whole bunch of your own money to get a commercial license, and mostly likely a flight instruction certification. Then you give lessons for crap pay for a few years to build hours. While you're instructing you basically give all your paychecks back to the flight school to pay for the multi-engine hours you need. Then you fly cargo for crap pay to build hours. Then you fly regional air transport for crap pay, and live in your car.
Eventually you can get enough seniority to earn a very good living, but even then you have to be prepared for the lifestyle of being away from home for days to weeks at a time.
I'm not entirely trying to crush your dreams of flying professionally, but it's something you've really got to want to do. Unfortunately, it's something a lot of other people want to do too, so airlines (and other employers) can basically say "talk to us when you have 5,000 hours in multi-engine jets and we'll see if there's an opening," putting all the burden on you to get there.
The trainer said I got the hang of the controls pretty quick, and I did thoroughly enjoy the 10-minute period in the middle when I didn't feel horribly sick, but... yeah. So I'm going to try ginger pills, and maybe a smaller breakfast next time. And also not throwing the controls around like I did at the start, that probably didn't help.
In other news, it cost quite a bit more than I expected; $380 in total, which was $325 for the hour, plus landing fee. On the bright side, I got a call back from the flight school I left a message with originally, and he says he can do it in a smaller plane for $250 inc landing fee. That seems a little more manageable.
So, any tips for combatting flight sickness?
For airsickness ginger pills are pretty much the gold standard cure all recommended by just about every flight surgeon i have ever talked to. While I was in flight school they gave them to all the kids that got air sick. Sometimes it worked sometimes no. (we were pulling G's and doing aerobatics though.)
Eat a light breakfast but don't skip it. I recommend just a banana with some peanut butter on it.
Keep your eyes open and on the horizon. This will help with motion sickness.
As for why he was asking your height and weight. It is very common for smaller aircraft to require precise weight and balance. (all aircraft require this but the big ones just assume every person weighs the same. Tiny ones have to gnats ass the details or they crash.)
It is also incredibly common to get sick your first few times in a small aircraft. Don't worry about it to much it does get better quickly. I felt queasy on my first flight in a cesna and have never been airsick since and I have plenty of hours.
I am an instrument rated military helicopter pilot with a commercial fixed wing and rotary license feel free to pm me any questions.