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School me on Servers

ThanatosThanatos Registered User regular
So, I'm trying to spec out a new server for my office. We have 28 users, and are currently running a six-year-old server with Windows SBS 2003. We're looking at two different possibilities:

1) A large Windows 2008 SBS server with VMWare and a dedicated virtual machine for an Exchange server.

2) A smaller file server running Windows 2008 Server with Hosted Exchange.

I don't even know where to begin; I've spec'd out PCs before, but this is an entirely different creature. I don't know what's good or bad. I've heard Dell and HP are the way to go, but that's about it. How much RAM do I need? How many processors? What else do I need to look out for? Thanks.

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  • syndalissyndalis Getting Classy On the WallRegistered User, Loves Apple Products, Transition Team regular
    edited December 2010
    Okay, simple rule of thumb:

    Unless you have government contracts or paranoid clients who absolutely cannot abide by you having your emails hosted elsewhere, go with hosted exchange. Managing and maintaining the health of an exchange server will dominate your IT resources compared to everything else, trust me. Also, Hosted Exchange will keep the biggest backdoors, namely OWA and ActiveSync, from running inside your local environment.

    People may suggest you go with the professional paid-for gMail service; I will stand opposed to that simply because I can speak to the shittiness of sharing appointments with people in other environments. Almost all big business uses Exchange, or something that has no problems working with exchange calendar invites.

    May I ask what kind of security you have planned for between the internet and your server? Do you have an ASA or something similar?

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  • ThanatosThanatos Registered User regular
    edited December 2010
    Sorry, I lost my original OP, and forgot to mention when I re-wrote it that I, personally, am leaning very strongly towards the latter option; Hosted Exchange sounds totally awesome to me, and in an office our size, seems to make a lot of sense.

    At the moment, we have a Cisco ASA and a Barracuda Spam Firewall between us and the internet (which kind of sucks, because we just renewed that a few months ago).

    Our office already has Outlook, and I find it to be a fucking awesome program, so I really don't see any reason to switch away from Exchange; if we were looking at all new computers or opening an office, I would maybe check out other options, but I don't really see any reason to get rid of that particular environment.

    Thanatos on
  • NailbunnyPDNailbunnyPD Registered User regular
    edited December 2010
    We run Exchange 2010 on site for ~45 users. We've run Exchange since SBS 2000, and then standalone 2003, skipping 2007. We maintain Software Assurance on our Exchange licensing. I can't speak for hosted, but I enjoy having the Exchange server on-site, having control over the server, having access to regular backups to restore long lost emails, etc. My biggest concerns about hosted would be regarding backups and accessing long since deleted emails.

    That said, 2010 is a beast. We have it running in a VM (Hyper-V) on its own physical server. We could probably run more VMs on the server, but we don't need to at the moment. If we did that, Exchange would need its own isolated disk array (as it has now by default), and I would probably keep it assigned the 14G of RAM it gets now, and add more for the additional VMs. The RAM might be more than it needs, but it doesn't hurt.

    All our mail comes in through AppRiver (third party spam/virus filtering), and the Exchange server only accepts mail from their servers.

    We run into some quirks trying to use Outlook 2003 w/ Exchange 2010, but its manageable once you implement a couple fixes. Outlook 2007 and 2010 behave much better.

    (edit: We have a couple Cisco ASA's and redundant internet connections. We used to do Dell servers until they burned us with a shitty PE 2850 file and backup server, which would just lockup and they were reluctant to work with us. We've since switched to HP servers and I can't complain.)

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  • NailbunnyPDNailbunnyPD Registered User regular
    edited December 2010
    I should add that we run a second Hyper-V host server that runs 3 VMs off a single RAID5 array (DC, file, and Citrix.) In hindsight, I might have split the Citrix server off on its own RAID1 disk array (and I may still end up doing that next year.) Both host servers run off their own dedicated RAID1 array, while the VMs run off RAID5 arrays.

    We run 2 hosts on site for redundancy. If one fails, we can at least restore the VM instances onto the other physical server and be up and running.

    Exchange 2010 will require a 2008 DC, but you'd be covered with SBS 2008.

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  • darkmayodarkmayo Registered User regular
    edited December 2010
    Thanatos wrote: »
    So, I'm trying to spec out a new server for my office. We have 28 users, and are currently running a six-year-old server with Windows SBS 2003. We're looking at two different possibilities:

    1) A large Windows 2008 SBS server with VMWare and a dedicated virtual machine for an Exchange server.

    2) A smaller file server running Windows 2008 Server with Hosted Exchange.

    I don't even know where to begin; I've spec'd out PCs before, but this is an entirely different creature. I don't know what's good or bad. I've heard Dell and HP are the way to go, but that's about it. How much RAM do I need? How many processors? What else do I need to look out for? Thanks.


    Alot of variables are needed to be looked at. I am going to pitch the HP side of things since I play with HP servers the most, they have in my experience the best support suites, best hardware and for the most part the server guys aren't morons.. I've also worked with SUN, DELL and IBM servers and they have there strengths and weaknesses but I know the HP gear the best as well as the support/warranty side of HP gear.

    Anyways.. as someone said earlier if you can farm out exchange to a hosted service DO IT.

    When picking a server we would need to know how much you guys are forecasted to grow in lets say the next five years, your current server room what are its power and cooling capabilities, do you have a server rack. Do you require redundancy?


    The growth forecast will give you an idea what you will need and might need to have for expansion.

    For HP the current generation of servers are the proliant G7s if you dont have a rack then you will be looking at an ML class tower, if you have a rack then DL class.

    The G7s are still fairly new so they are working through some bugs with firmware but that tends to happen pretty damn quick with HP as well the firmware update process for HP servers is easy peasy.

    There is a variety of different models but since the G6 series HP has been moving the servers to more of a Virtualization friendly machine, with more DIMM slots better Bus architecture and partnerships with VMware to make sure ESX runs nicely on the gear. As well power consumption has improved alot so your electrical bill will be lower.

    As well for servers, you should be buying extended or enhanced warranty, HP servers come with a base 3 year warranty. onsite parts and labour but usually a next business day response next available tech deliverable. Most companies I work with usually will buy 24x7 4hour response (for either 3 4 or 5 years)

    What that does is allows you to get same day parts (90% of the time, even HP has stocking issues from time to time) a tech will come onsite within 4 hours and you can make that call 24 hours a day 7 days a week. There is more to that but that is the gist. Really depends on how critical the server. There is other options for support as well but i'll leave that for now. Oh also where you are located would effect speed of response.. if you are in the middle of nowhere, and nowhere near a hub site it will take longer to get to than being in cities.

    I'll leave it at that for now.

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  • ThanatosThanatos Registered User regular
    edited December 2010
    We are a 28-person non-tech office. We don't even have a rack for our current server (it's a tower server), let alone a cooling system or anything like that. The server room is also the telephone cabinet/storage closet.

    As far as growth, if you're talking about number of users, I anticipate us staying around 30ish for quite some time (the foreseeable future of the server, in any case). If you're talking about files, I'm not sure how much bigger we're going to get there, but I don't anticipate it being a problem; we currently have about 200GB of files (counting Exchange and all the software), so even if we start scanning a lot more (which I want to do), we probably won't get big enough for it to be a problem.

    Thanatos on
  • amateurhouramateurhour One day I'll be professionalhour The woods somewhere in TennesseeRegistered User regular
    edited December 2010
    You should definitely go with option two if that's the case.

    Have you thought about how you're going to handle file sharing? Are you just going to use mapped drives to the server or are you considering Project Server/Sharepoint?

    Do you have a domain controller or does everyone just use local login?

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  • bowenbowen Sup? Registered User regular
    edited December 2010
    Option 2, you'll thank us all later.

    You can get a cheap rack for like $400. In my experience our HP servers have lasted the longest of the bunch, so there's that. You don't want to be trying to support an exchange server. I have it for the most basic of email and it's still a nightmare sometimes. A single server, and maybe a NAS will probably be the best way to invest your money. Especially if the NAS is easily expandable.

    bowen on
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  • SpudgeSpudge Witty comments go next to this blue dot thingyRegistered User regular
    edited December 2010
    You know what would fit your situation?

    An HP ProLiant ML300 series. They can be had in tower or rack mount and can be specced from base to pretty decently powerful

    Up to 2 6-core procs
    192 GB RAM capable
    SAS and SATA capabilities
    Power redundancy available
    Low heat output

    Plus all ML300 units come with iLO integrated controller, which is a great system for keeping your server healthy without touching it physically

    (disclaimer: I work for HP, in storage R&D)

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  • bowenbowen Sup? Registered User regular
    edited December 2010
    I don't work for HP and I would agree. HP makes great servers. Also if you don't have a dedicated server room/closet with special cooling needs, low heat output servers are what you'll want. Otherwise the hardware will burn out fast. No pun intended.

    bowen on
    not a doctor, not a lawyer, examples I use may not be fully researched so don't take out of context plz, don't @ me
  • ThanatosThanatos Registered User regular
    edited December 2010
    You should definitely go with option two if that's the case.

    Have you thought about how you're going to handle file sharing? Are you just going to use mapped drives to the server or are you considering Project Server/Sharepoint?

    Do you have a domain controller or does everyone just use local login?
    We just use mapped network drives for file sharing; I don't think Sharepoint is really worthwhile for us. I'm having a hard enough time converting people over to using Office instead of WordPerfect.

    We do have a domain controller.

    Thanatos on
  • darkmayodarkmayo Registered User regular
    edited December 2010
    Tower it is.

    You could probably get by nicely with room to upgrade if you go with an HP ProLiant ML350 G6 , which coincidentally is a model I just built a few weeks ago.

    I'll post the link to the HP quickspecs on this unit.

    http://h18004.www1.hp.com/products/quickspecs/13241_na/13241_na.html


    this unit has 18 DIMM slots in total

    Max storage on the unit currently is 16 Terabytes or 8 Terabytes depending if you use LFF or SFF drives.
    Then whatever you want to turn that amount of disc space into for RAID (RAID 0, RAID 1 and RAID 1+0 for the base controller in there RAID 5 requires a better cotnroller which can be picked off the bat depending on the model you want.

    anyways give that a look over.

    (disclaimer, I dont work for HP but did years ago in the service side of things, I now work for a company that partners heavily with HP and I am working towards my HP AIS for Bladesystems. )

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  • ThanatosThanatos Registered User regular
    edited December 2010
    I could probably move things around in the server room to make room for a rack, if that would be a better way to go.

    Right now, all of our networking appliances are sitting on shelves, and our tape drive is on top of the tower. Probably sub-optimal.

    Thanatos on
  • syndalissyndalis Getting Classy On the WallRegistered User, Loves Apple Products, Transition Team regular
    edited December 2010
    Thanatos wrote: »
    I could probably move things around in the server room to make room for a rack, if that would be a better way to go.

    Right now, all of our networking appliances are sitting on shelves, and our tape drive is on top of the tower. Probably sub-optimal.

    before you start thinking your closet can handle a rack, measure how deep your closet goes.

    MOST 1U-2U servers are much, MUCH deeper than you think.

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  • bowenbowen Sup? Registered User regular
    edited December 2010
    4 feet of depth should be okay.

    bowen on
    not a doctor, not a lawyer, examples I use may not be fully researched so don't take out of context plz, don't @ me
  • SpudgeSpudge Witty comments go next to this blue dot thingyRegistered User regular
    edited December 2010
    If you go rack mount, I'd recommend the ProLiant DL370 G6. It's a 4U server (more height, less depth) with comparable specs to the ML350. Some differences are:

    Insight Control with iLO Advanced
    24 Small Form Factor SAS/SATA or
    14 Large Form Factor SAS/SATA
    4 port Multifunction Gigabit Ethernet
    Minimum 6 GB RAM, max of 144 GB

    The nice thing about the DL370 is it's completely scalable - the basic model would probably fit your needs just fine right now and if the company sees any growth, it's more than capable of meeting future demands

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  • bowenbowen Sup? Registered User regular
    edited December 2010
    The scalability part is the biggest thing you want Thanatos. It sucks after getting a new server after a year you've already outgrown it.

    bowen on
    not a doctor, not a lawyer, examples I use may not be fully researched so don't take out of context plz, don't @ me
  • ThanatosThanatos Registered User regular
    edited December 2010
    If scalability becomes an issue, we're going to be not only needing a new server, but an entirely new office. We could fit maybe one or two more people in the office we have now, and as far as I know, there's not any talk of expanding any time in the future.

    We've been around for 100 years, and to my knowledge, have been about the same size for the past fifteen or twenty.

    Thanatos on
  • bowenbowen Sup? Registered User regular
    edited December 2010
    Scalability plays a huge part in not only amount of users, but amount of data and requirements of the programs too. Do you foresee the applications needs expanding? I can assume your data will, but it'll be a while before you'll need to worry about that being even a remote issue.

    If, for instance, you want everyone using RDP to the server, you'll want more memory and processing power. If this is just a file server? You can be much more lax about the requirements.

    bowen on
    not a doctor, not a lawyer, examples I use may not be fully researched so don't take out of context plz, don't @ me
  • ThanatosThanatos Registered User regular
    edited December 2010
    bowen wrote: »
    Scalability plays a huge part in not only amount of users, but amount of data and requirements of the programs too. Do you foresee the applications needs expanding? I can assume your data will, but it'll be a while before you'll need to worry about that being even a remote issue.

    If, for instance, you want everyone using RDP to the server, you'll want more memory and processing power. If this is just a file server? You can be much more lax about the requirements.
    There are about 15 users who use Cisco Systems VPN to connect to the server, which I don't think is anywhere near as intense as RDP, and they don't do it when they're local (which is most work days).

    If anything, we'll be cutting down on applications a bit with the new server.

    Thanatos on
  • NailbunnyPDNailbunnyPD Registered User regular
    edited December 2010
    Our 2 VM host servers are ML350 G6's, with the rack mount kits. They are very scalable. SAS drives are nice, and if you go with the small form factor drives and extra drive bays, you will have a lot of room to expand if needed.

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  • darkmayodarkmayo Registered User regular
    edited December 2010
    Spudge wrote: »
    If you go rack mount, I'd recommend the ProLiant DL370 G6. It's a 4U server (more height, less depth) with comparable specs to the ML350. Some differences are:

    Insight Control with iLO Advanced
    24 Small Form Factor SAS/SATA or
    14 Large Form Factor SAS/SATA
    4 port Multifunction Gigabit Ethernet
    Minimum 6 GB RAM, max of 144 GB

    The nice thing about the DL370 is it's completely scalable - the basic model would probably fit your needs just fine right now and if the company sees any growth, it's more than capable of meeting future demands

    I hate to say out of all the HP servers I would not recommend this one.. it is a pain in the ass. I have had more than a few clients have issues with this beast and let me tell you as someone who services the machine I would rather get punched in the face than work on one of these servers.

    Of course your milage may vary but I hate these things, from the separate power backplane that has a mess of cables flowing everywhere inside the chassis to the shitty quad port PCI-E NIC that comes with it.

    Once again this is anecdotal if someone has had great experience with these then great, but I've been out to service more than a few of these and the clients hated them.

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  • bowenbowen Sup? Registered User regular
    edited December 2010
    We have the 2U/1U ones where I work and I haven't had to touch them in 5+ years, so, your mileage will vary.

    bowen on
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