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I just got hired by Zynga, what should I do?
mercenary
Registered User, __BANNED USERS regular
Registered User, __BANNED USERS regular
PURPOSE
This is both a post seeking advice, and also as means of distributing insight. Many of you may want to be game developers, and I hope the intel I provide will be helpful.
BACKGROUND
I would like to keep this as anonymous as I can, and would like to leave out incriminating details (since these details are irrelevant for the advice I am seeking from this community). If you pick up a clue on who I am (and some of you who do browse this forum frequently do know me in meatspace), I'd like to quarry a simple favor; don't name any names, simply because the 'who' is irrelevant in the advice I am seeking.
I've been a long time lurker, and have closely watched gaming communities, from the perspective as a member, and also from the perspective of a game developer. I consider myself a 'hardcore' gamer in many aspects, although I don't compete on professional gaming leagues. Like most of you, I've spent the majority of my childhood and most of my adult life playing games, and going to PAX.
FOCUS
In general, there is absolutely no love for companies like Zynga. In fact, Zynga is seen as some sort of evil cartel of digital goods. It's both a war of ideas, identity, and a frothing battlefield of game criticism. At the center is Zynga, seen both as an upstart and a usurper. And in my opinion, Zynga is seen as the bad guy, by default.
PROBLEM STATE
This started off in late 2009, during the 'ScamVille' blowout. At the time, I was going through a university game engineering program (focused in computer science/game engines).
At the time, I despised facebook games. I didn't like them, because they were mind-numbing, on the same level that crack cocaine is mind numbing. At the time, I felt that 'social games' offered very little value to hardcore gamers. The OfferPal scams were the last straw, at the time, I sealed my opinion of social games as nothing more than elaborate scams. (As a note, Zynga responded to the scams, and took out the malicious offers/lead-gen advertisers) In general, I thought facebook games could use an ethical eye, and better engineering.
So, I finished off my game project during that senior year. It wasnt the best project, nor would it win any IGF trophies, but it taught us how to hack a current-gen console (and yes, we did hack on a current gen console). We were proud to survive our project. We graduated, and started job hunting. Some of us tried to go independent, but its not as easy as we thought it would be.
No one wanted to hire, this was the Summer of 2010. Traditional game studios had a serious case of 'senioritis' (just check the Gamasutra job boards, everything has a damn 'senior' title attached). Indie game projects were secluded, and had a hit driven feel, and most indie teams had their own cliques they wanted to take care off. I had no funds to continue any of my independent projects. Mind you, this was about 7 months of constantly looking for employers, taking their damn tests (and acing them), but getting turned down for someone with 'more experience'. This is also submitting pages and pages of design documents, source code, and constantly refitting cover letters.
I got as close as a phone interview for the core design team of a high profile studio. They saw my experience as 'lacking', even though my chops in software engineering and experimental game mechanics were impressive. I think they wanted to have someone with more stripes on their uniform, not necessarily talent. It seemed that traditional studios didn't care for the fact that I was an avid gamer, or had extensive, "real life" experience being a gamer. They cared more about studio experience, and business savvy.
I still keep my independent projects on the SVN. I don't have the funds to pay my crew, and no, I didn't want to work them on 'sweat equity', I felt it was unfair if I couldn't pay them up front.
So, that's a cliff notes of the past summer, PAX 2010 was the only thing that made it worthwhile, and less of a career nightmare. PAX Prime was an oasis, in a void of failure.
ZYNGA HAD OPEN DOORS
First off, Zyngas HR process was chill, easy going and respectful, compared to all the traditional studios HR machinery. Not one hint of antagonism. They didn't care about my 'bureaucratic knowledge' of C++, they cared more about my ability to solve problems. Completely unexpected. It was the first time I was comfortable, and even felt welcomed as a prospective hire. Many of my university friends are also part of Zyngas crew, so that also made me feel like the doors were open. The interview process was also insightful. Dude, they give their employees catered lunches AND dinners, a huge huge benefit.
After getting a crappy offer from a high profile studio (basically, scrubbing their tools/assets pipeline, maybe get fired in 3 months? No bennies, no respect... not a great start, but it WAS a start....), I decided not to pursue that entry level job, and started looking more to Zynga; their offer gave me a chance to pay off my student loans, and showed some chances for mobility. And free chow, while at work.
"FRIENDS"
This is just a gut feeling; it seems I have lost the respect of many people I considered friends, colleagues, and future crewmates. When I accepted Zyngas offer, I think the general consensus was that I "sold out" good game design to make a quick buck, and be a corporate shill. I don't expect to see any love from PAX neither, I think I will get a lot of sneers for even admitting that I work for Zynga.
And yes, that made me sad. Many others were more supportive, even my professors. But theres still that shadow of doubt, lurking. I guess this is similar to a career 'identity' crisis. To be frank, I have readjusted who I considered 'friend', and am starting to think that Zynga isn't some evil dominion. In fact, I consider Zynga to be the savior of my career, when no one else had the time to take me seriously, they were the only company to throw me a bone. A BIG bone, with juicy meat.
WHAT TO DO?
Which brings me here. I don't wanna make the next Farmville. Maybe I can make a better one? Who knows. But I do want to make better games. I don't wanna sound like an infiltrator; I don't consider Zynga an enemy. In fact, I consider Zynga to be wild, untamed territory, so I consider myself an Astronaut, venturing into this vacuous space called 'social game design'.
Every game design graduate wants to make an impact on the industry, I feel that I can make more of an impact this way.
Should I be the dutiful employee? Taking orders, and shipping features?
Should I try to influence them? and if so, on what scale?
I already have my foot in the door, so I'm asking here; what would you do if you were in my shoes?
I'm not asking for a flame war, and I could care less if I'm called a shill, but I wanna get a feel for what all y'all think.
This is both a post seeking advice, and also as means of distributing insight. Many of you may want to be game developers, and I hope the intel I provide will be helpful.
BACKGROUND
I would like to keep this as anonymous as I can, and would like to leave out incriminating details (since these details are irrelevant for the advice I am seeking from this community). If you pick up a clue on who I am (and some of you who do browse this forum frequently do know me in meatspace), I'd like to quarry a simple favor; don't name any names, simply because the 'who' is irrelevant in the advice I am seeking.
I've been a long time lurker, and have closely watched gaming communities, from the perspective as a member, and also from the perspective of a game developer. I consider myself a 'hardcore' gamer in many aspects, although I don't compete on professional gaming leagues. Like most of you, I've spent the majority of my childhood and most of my adult life playing games, and going to PAX.
FOCUS
In general, there is absolutely no love for companies like Zynga. In fact, Zynga is seen as some sort of evil cartel of digital goods. It's both a war of ideas, identity, and a frothing battlefield of game criticism. At the center is Zynga, seen both as an upstart and a usurper. And in my opinion, Zynga is seen as the bad guy, by default.
PROBLEM STATE
This started off in late 2009, during the 'ScamVille' blowout. At the time, I was going through a university game engineering program (focused in computer science/game engines).
At the time, I despised facebook games. I didn't like them, because they were mind-numbing, on the same level that crack cocaine is mind numbing. At the time, I felt that 'social games' offered very little value to hardcore gamers. The OfferPal scams were the last straw, at the time, I sealed my opinion of social games as nothing more than elaborate scams. (As a note, Zynga responded to the scams, and took out the malicious offers/lead-gen advertisers) In general, I thought facebook games could use an ethical eye, and better engineering.
So, I finished off my game project during that senior year. It wasnt the best project, nor would it win any IGF trophies, but it taught us how to hack a current-gen console (and yes, we did hack on a current gen console). We were proud to survive our project. We graduated, and started job hunting. Some of us tried to go independent, but its not as easy as we thought it would be.
No one wanted to hire, this was the Summer of 2010. Traditional game studios had a serious case of 'senioritis' (just check the Gamasutra job boards, everything has a damn 'senior' title attached). Indie game projects were secluded, and had a hit driven feel, and most indie teams had their own cliques they wanted to take care off. I had no funds to continue any of my independent projects. Mind you, this was about 7 months of constantly looking for employers, taking their damn tests (and acing them), but getting turned down for someone with 'more experience'. This is also submitting pages and pages of design documents, source code, and constantly refitting cover letters.
I got as close as a phone interview for the core design team of a high profile studio. They saw my experience as 'lacking', even though my chops in software engineering and experimental game mechanics were impressive. I think they wanted to have someone with more stripes on their uniform, not necessarily talent. It seemed that traditional studios didn't care for the fact that I was an avid gamer, or had extensive, "real life" experience being a gamer. They cared more about studio experience, and business savvy.
I still keep my independent projects on the SVN. I don't have the funds to pay my crew, and no, I didn't want to work them on 'sweat equity', I felt it was unfair if I couldn't pay them up front.
So, that's a cliff notes of the past summer, PAX 2010 was the only thing that made it worthwhile, and less of a career nightmare. PAX Prime was an oasis, in a void of failure.
ZYNGA HAD OPEN DOORS
First off, Zyngas HR process was chill, easy going and respectful, compared to all the traditional studios HR machinery. Not one hint of antagonism. They didn't care about my 'bureaucratic knowledge' of C++, they cared more about my ability to solve problems. Completely unexpected. It was the first time I was comfortable, and even felt welcomed as a prospective hire. Many of my university friends are also part of Zyngas crew, so that also made me feel like the doors were open. The interview process was also insightful. Dude, they give their employees catered lunches AND dinners, a huge huge benefit.
After getting a crappy offer from a high profile studio (basically, scrubbing their tools/assets pipeline, maybe get fired in 3 months? No bennies, no respect... not a great start, but it WAS a start....), I decided not to pursue that entry level job, and started looking more to Zynga; their offer gave me a chance to pay off my student loans, and showed some chances for mobility. And free chow, while at work.
"FRIENDS"
This is just a gut feeling; it seems I have lost the respect of many people I considered friends, colleagues, and future crewmates. When I accepted Zyngas offer, I think the general consensus was that I "sold out" good game design to make a quick buck, and be a corporate shill. I don't expect to see any love from PAX neither, I think I will get a lot of sneers for even admitting that I work for Zynga.
And yes, that made me sad. Many others were more supportive, even my professors. But theres still that shadow of doubt, lurking. I guess this is similar to a career 'identity' crisis. To be frank, I have readjusted who I considered 'friend', and am starting to think that Zynga isn't some evil dominion. In fact, I consider Zynga to be the savior of my career, when no one else had the time to take me seriously, they were the only company to throw me a bone. A BIG bone, with juicy meat.
WHAT TO DO?
Which brings me here. I don't wanna make the next Farmville. Maybe I can make a better one? Who knows. But I do want to make better games. I don't wanna sound like an infiltrator; I don't consider Zynga an enemy. In fact, I consider Zynga to be wild, untamed territory, so I consider myself an Astronaut, venturing into this vacuous space called 'social game design'.
Every game design graduate wants to make an impact on the industry, I feel that I can make more of an impact this way.
Should I be the dutiful employee? Taking orders, and shipping features?
Should I try to influence them? and if so, on what scale?
I already have my foot in the door, so I'm asking here; what would you do if you were in my shoes?
I'm not asking for a flame war, and I could care less if I'm called a shill, but I wanna get a feel for what all y'all think.
mercenary on
0
Posts
Fuck 'em, get paid. I'm willing to bet that your "game designer" "friends" aren't designing games for a major studio. Personally, I wouldn't worry about living up to the standards of the sanctimonious unemployed.
If they are in fact "ballers" at major studios, then they haven't been awesome friends otherwise they would have helped you get a foot in the door at Integrity Studios.
Businesses are businesses, and any future employer will only see previous experience at another gaming studio as a plus (assuming you left amicably).
As long as you can clearly mark out what skills you have and even potentially what skills you gained from working at Zynga, the name itself shouldn't be a blight on your resume. Particularly in this field, they would be looking for people with skills, not past associations
World of Warcraft - 15 million users... (active and past I assume)
Screw the haters. I may not like the games but I'm damned envious of how big they got.
True. I also suspect a hint of geek envy from these folks.
And geek envy is utterly poisonous.
im not sure what i would do with respect to trying to influence the company, etc. is zynga really viewed that negatively? if millions and millions of people love it and play it and pay money for digital goods and they are happy to do so, who cares what the 20 people in this thread think? the hardcore is such a small number of people that i don't think you should give a shit at all.
in other words, nerdrage is dumb and you should not pay it any heed whatsoever. go make madden 12 or guitar hero 7 or whatever and make a million bucks.
I do hope so.
First, I hope you don't actually have an offer from "Internet Gaming company in question" and in fact have an offer from "Competitor of internet gaming company in question", companies don't like you saying stuff like this about them behind their back and the last thing you want is some head of HR searching around on the internet and realizing you were their only hire in December 2010 or something. I'd advise editing your post to replace the names of the guilty.
Second, while "Company" might have some bad press, you should certainly take the job. An opportunity to expand your resume like this, and to gain experience in working in social gaming is massive. All those big companies who won't give you a job now, they'll be beating down your door once you have 4 years of experience working in 'the expanded market'.
Third, "Company" is still producing crap games which are annoying, but their habits of nearly stealing cash seem to have died down a bit. If you'll be working on their games you can do something about the former, and if you're on the inside and feel that morality is important you can argue against the latter and quit if you feel it's important to do so.
Fourth, "Company" is a leader in it's field. Whatever you may say about them they are very good at what they do, and doing what they do makes a significant amount of money.
So, stop your hand wringing and take the job. Noone who is serious in any business will hold it against you if you worked for a succesful company, no matter their reputation. If you take the job, and find they are actually the devil stealing credit card details, then quit.
There's on thing here that matters to the people you actually want to impress, and it's not tied into what the neckbeards might think of casual gaming developers.
I did take the job.
We can't all work for Pixar straight out of college, realizing this is your first step into the real world.
When you get your first paycheck, invite them to eat a dick. Your treat.
Ahh, then work hard, enjoy your new company and don't worry about your cred on the street. Provided they aren't doing things you think are going to have them shut down by the feds.
In terms of what you should do, you should develop your skills on high profile projects if possible, and try to steer them in a direction which is both pleasing to you as a creator and to them as a company.
True.
I just found it utterly mind boggling how the hiring process works with traditional studios. And sad to say that my expectations were demolished.
Most companies care about your skills and how you applied them. If you do a shitty job here then don't expect to be treated seriously later on. Take this job seriously and gather as much experience as you can then go the next job if you want to.
This company is just the latest "evil" company in a long line. I bet plenty of people view Microsoft and Apple just as badly, but there are plenty of others who would do anything to work there because they know they are on the edge of whatever field they are passionate about.
You're in an industry that everyone wants to be a part of, studios have their pick of the litter that they can then treat like crap because everyone wants that job.
Sounds like you got a decent job at a high profile company in the industry, just do your part well and seize any opportunity you can get.
I will take it seriously. I need more chops in web traffic processing anyway. The fact that friends work there was defining factor in taking the hire date for me.
Who knows, maybe I will work for them for a long time.
I do hope Zynga does something more hardcore in the future, they already have the machinery for it.
People who get bent out of shape about it aren't looking out for your best interests in this economy, and your "cred" should be about doing a respectable job with the task you have at hand, not others peoples Ideals about an industry. Challenge yourself to keep thinking about innovate ideas, and use your new knowledge of social media games as selling point. These are games with mechanics that suck in the most casual of gamers, and you'll have insights into why.
This has been an emotionally charged summer for me, I felt the need to gush on ze internet.
Not to mention companies like Bigpoint that are busy making browser-based versions of Age of Empires, Battlestar Galactica, Tiger Woods and Stronghold.
Maybe your friends in the business are laughing at you now, but between now and next year their boss will come to them asking if they can look into a Facebook app.
I am not sure how applicable programming skills are across game quality, but in general in different industries it seems that once you start down a particular path it becomes much harder to change your specialty. This seems especially true considering the fact that most of the triple AAA studios look to people with business knowledge of their particular segment of the industry. The Intellectual Capital you develop at Zygna might be applicable to those triple AAA studios, but it may not.
In all seriousness I think that with such a poor economy now, that if you took this Zygna job for a year, it would not reflect poorly on your resume and some of their business knowledge might adequately prepare you for your future switch (hopefully). I would take the job, but I would also find a headhunter in your industry and discuss the ramifications of this move. Surprisingly recruiters and head hunters don't mind giving some free advice, are generally discrete, and want to build a relationship with you so that in the future they can make money placing you with another firm.
Disclaimer: I worked in finance and now work in the legal field, so my advice above may not apply to the entertainment/programming industry.
That's all there is to it.
Believe me, I do so desperately WANT to make that happen.
In my opinion, Zynga has yet to reach the hardcore audience, and it should in some fashion.
That's pretty much what I expected.
My average day while programming stretches about 16 hours.
oh, yea. I meant to comment on this. The free meals thing sounds like gangbusters on paper, but there's always a catch to it.
I get free lunch and dinner too when something goes horribly wrong at my job and I have to stick around.
I think this is why the AAA studios are so butthurt about social games.
After personally seeing this (and also NOMing at the chowhall) at Zyngas offices, I can confirm that the lunches and dinners are a solid company function, and not merely for show.
I'll recant if proven otherwise, but I believe WoW refers to the number of simultaneously active accounts. Also, each of those accounts paid in for at least the base game, and quite possibly one or more expansions. I suspect a large percentage of Farmville players have never given Zynga a dime directly, and have doubts that the fractions of pennies they get in advertising revenue (add up as they might) compare directly to said base game costs plus monthly subscription fees.
Also, while people having multiple accounts in WoW is a well known phenomenon, said subscription fee likely keeps it to a relatively low number (I do not play currently, but I spent 4 years as a high end raider, so I have some experience with the rather... hardcore playerbase). In comparison, I do play a Zynga game (after axing like 3 others due to shitty gameplay mechanics or annoying bullshit), and I know of many people running multiple accounts, such as to make all the gifting bullshit easier to deal with. Whether or not that makes up a notable percentage of those 68 million I cannot say, but given that making up another facebook account is free, carries no fees and as long as you're not terribly blatant about it, nobody seems to care, I doubt there's anything resembling the same natural restraint/restrictions that $15 a month can bring to people.
Related to the OP: Go for the job. In this market, you'd be crazy to turn down work, and just because Zynga is paying your bills doesn't mean you murder kittens in order to achieve climax. That said, if you have any say in their development team whatsoever, I could probably give you a page or more breakdown on some of their annoying, bullshit or obtuse game mechanic choices of late.
A (now ex) girlfriend got me into Vampire Wars, and I later picked up Treasure Isle, Farmville, Mafia Wars (the only one I still play) and briefly dabbled in Frontierville. The interconnected nature of their game is approaching MMO levels of time sinkness; play game X to gain benefit Y in game Z, which nicely rewards players with absurd amounts of patience, free time and/or less scrupulous means of participation, but they're often applied in an asinine fashion. "Get a stamina boost for playing treasure isle" means "only if you go through this link; play it from the normal link and you don't get jack".
Don't get me started on the absolutely copious wall spam expected to keep up, the absurd restrictions on social actions while expecting people to have an order of magnitude more people in their 'group', etc, etc, etc. If nothing else, the sour taste left by some of their choices (as a game designer and a company in general) have left me wary of anything they produce. Hell, I probably just play MW out of habit at this point.
Apologies if this is going off topic, though I suppose there could be room for some interesting discussion on the company, their practices and what is acceptable by the gaming populace while respecting that companies are expected to watch their profit margins.
Many developers are looking for new ways to bring in revenues instead of just relying on the traditional model so having experience with a company that has done well with this should be an asset.
I think you are going through the same thing many graduates including myself are. I was in the top 5% of my class and did many things while in university to improve my resume so I had high expectations and had them increased by getting interviews with the top firms in the world in my field. Then reality set in and I realized not only would I have to settle for less but getting that less would require luck, patience and allot of work.
I think the 'spam' is a product of their constraints; games that are playable within the timeframe of a smokebreak/lunch/bus ride, and playable from a mobile device/facebook. That's not a lot of room.
On the company's practices and ethics; I think a lot of sensationalist gaming blogs have capitalized on marking Zynga as the bad guy; the company is fairly young (3 years?), and they are making revenues hand over fist.
Further reading into the ScamVille saga, I think Zynga cleaned up (immediately even). My industry friends tell me that the majority of Zyngas revenue comes from in game purchases, barely from anything else.
Any future companies that won't hire you because you worked at Zynga, well, you don't want to work for them anyhow. Even if you don't like Zynga, you have to admire their success, and wonder if there's an aspect of their success you can use to boost your own. Even if it turns out to be a Bad Place To Work, you can list on your resume the lessons you learned while you were there about how to avoid that kind of thing in the future.
It sounds like an excellent opportunity, and congratulations.
I'd be very surprised to see any major studio taking experience at zynga (who they are all currently pretty jealous of I'm sure) as a negative.
Any friends who treat you like you sold out because you took a job, in a bad economy, which, by all description, sounds like a great one, should really stop thinking of themselves and start thinking of your well being.
Seriously, it sounds like they are a nice company to work for, and they are hot right now. Last week my brother told me that at a meeting at his software company the phrase 'more zynga-like business model' came up, and they don't even make games.
Go for it man. Don't feel like you sold out, just take the job, do the best you can, and either you'll stick with it, or you'll have the paper experience to go work for one of the studios that are more mainstream.
But with zynga it sounds like it's a more stable place, perhaps with less turnaround than your average AAA studio, cranking out AAA titles and replacing half their staff every game. From the outside looking in, it seems like a place where you can comfortably move from one project to another, without a huge dev cycle or crunch.
I'm starting to think that the AAA studios have an underlying propaganda against social games.
Either way, I do feel good about taking the job, but going through the process of job hunting and job critique, I've had to readjust a lot this summer. I've even readjusted on who I considered "friend".
Also, best quote in this thread so far.
Coupled with the Job Hunting Apocalypse of 2010, it made it even worse. Graduating into a troubled economy was not good on any scope. I was literally finishing up my courses this past summer, and all year, up to that point, just about every major publisher had massive layoffs, studios shutting down.
I was close enough to just quitting, and taking a townie job (and even those were scarce).