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First You Make The [Thread], Then You Get The [Women]
Professor Snugglesworth
Registered User regular
Registered User regular
Let's dispense with the 100 pound bouncing pair of elephants in the room first: most of the people who play videogames are male. As a result, many of the female characters featured in videogames are, by default, rendered to be as attractive and eye-pleasing as possible. It's the law of demography.
But does that mean they should all be objectified? There are still lots of female gamers, and their numbers seem to be increasing if statistics are to be believed. Many of them are fans of the female characters found in games too, so their popularity isn't limited to just hormone-heavy males.
My being one hormone-heavy male notwithstanding, when it comes to videogame characters, I tend to show a great deal of favoritism toward female characters; in fact, if I ever bothered to make a list, I probably have more favorite female characters than male (speaking beyond eye-candy, of course). It's not hard to believe, since women in games tend to have more diverse and often exotic designs (for better or worse), whereas male characters tend to be restricted to just a handful of archetypes (not that I'm against making a thread that's all about the bros, but let's see where this one goes).
Beyond that, I have been eager to get into a big and (hopefully) intelligent discussion, so I'm making the following thread to discuss the role of women in videogames, in their many forms and archetypes. How is their current portrayal? Are things getting better or worse?
To start things off, let's dismiss some common claims about the issue, with my own personal rebuttals.
Videogame Girls are Not Real; Finding Them Attractive Is Wrong
No it isn't. Is it wrong to be find comic book characters like Mary Jane or Catwoman attractive? How about Jessica Rabbit or April O' Neil? Like animation and comic books, videogames are an art form, and people have been getting hot and bothered about fictional portrayals of women (and men) since the Greek days. And with graphics rapidly improving, we'll only be treated to more and more realistically rendered women.
Well....mostly realistic.
Again, incorrect. Some of the earliest female characters were popular because people had an emotional attachment to them. Nobody played Metroid just to get a glance at Samus' skintight Zero suit....it didn't even exist until a couple of years ago.
Many games, particularly RPGs, want the players to be emotionally invested in their characters, whether it's the main hero and/or his secondary love interest. The goal of many titles is to become in-tuned with the characters, and help them achieve their goal of a happy ending.
There are, of course, people who claim they can play through something because the gameplay itself is enjoyable, but also hold no interest in any of the characters featured. This isn't exactly a wrong mindset to have (works for me with Halo, in particular), but if you're playing a 50 hour-plus RPG and none of the cast is clicking with you, then something is seriously wrong there.
And since I'm certain it's going to get brought up a lot in this thread, I want to state my own opinion about Samus' character in Other M: In hindsight, there is nothing wrong with giving the previously mute Samus emotions; it doesn't make her less of a character to cry, show fear, be rescued, or even show love (whether platonic or intimate).
What didn't work was the script itself, in which she drones on and on and on about things that are happening before our eyes, constantly stating the obvious when even the most brain-dead gamer can figure out on his own. There are also other bits, such as how she allows herself to be berated by male characters that she clearly outclasses in every conceivable way, but remains silent about it. In other words, it wasn't her personality that was the problem, it was the writing itself.
And now, to bring up a list of common traits and cliches often seen with female characters. Please note that the following statements and arguments, including the character tropes themselves, are taken from various comments, observations, and a couple of hundred trips taken to TV Tropes. They DO NOT reflect my personal opinion, unless when explicitly stated, and are instead used to bring up a range of discussions we can cover in this broad topic about....well, broads.
That uh, that was the only gif I could find that was worksafe. Deal with it.
The Nutshell: Popularized by the Dead or Alive games, it's difficult these days to find a game that doesn't feature some form of breast bouncing. Even previously innocent titles like Sonic and Mario have fallen victim to the polygonal wobble.
The Argument: But should we be rid of it? In my personal view, the unrealistic waterballoon effect found in many Tecmo titles are indeed a ridiculous exaggeration, but still has a place in the appropriate source material (much as he argues, Itagaki knows what drives the sales of his series).
But with the advancement of visual details, including flowing hair and clothing, or accessories like chains and bracelets dangling with each step, it would only prove unrealistic to not have a bit of a swaying, jiggling motion when it comes to the full-featured female characters. Final Fantasy XIII is one such example, adding lots of little details in character animation except on the females' chests, as if encased in concrete. Someone like Vanille hopping about in her tiny top and not having some kind of physics-based effect adds more to uncanny valley than it does without. Square seems to have learned their lesson, having recently added bounciness (but in a perfectly plausible motion) to games like Dissidia and even Kingdom Hearts.
The Nutshell: Quite possibly the oldest tradition for fictional females, characters will inevitably (if not frequently) find themselves in peril, usually as a pretense for the hero to rush in and save his beloved/platonic companion from the forces of evil.
The Argument: It is also often argued that putting women in these predicaments demeans them, showing them to be powerless unless their mighty man comes in and saves them.
In a sense, they're right, but I don't see it as a form of demoralizing the female character. Rather, I see it as empowering the hero, showing them to be brave and dependable, willing to take on any challenge if it means saving the damsel in distress. If the player is particularly invested in the character in trouble, then it only motivates them to play through and save the character from harm.
After all, nobody thinks that Peach or Zelda are weak and pathetic for being captured. They're just excited because it means another fun adventure with Mario and Link to go rescue them.
Of course, the manner in which a character is captured, along with the repetitive rate that it takes place, can have demoralizing consequences no matter how "heroic" your character may be. Getting swallowed by a tentacle beast and covered in goo? That would certainly do it.
The Nutshell: Sooner or later, particularly in an RPG, it's all but guaranteed that the first girl that the main character comes across will end up falling head over heels for the hero, completely devoted to him and doing whatever it takes to end up in his arms. This is usually accompanied by bittersweet pop music, tearful embraces, and (hopefully) a happy ending where the two of them live happily ever after.
The Argument: Like the damsel in distress, it's argued that female characters falling in love is a sign of weakness, showcasing them as being incapable of thinking for themselves and practically pining over a hero who may or may not be interested in her in the first place.
Admittedly, I'm always a sucker for a good, simple romance. Just like how saving the girl from the bad guy is considered an empowering moment for players, winning their hearts is equally as satisfying. This of course could have the opposite effect if the romance is hackneyed and forced, sort of a last act of shoehorning a romance with no subtext. But when handled right, it becomes a satisfying cliche and a sign that no matter how bleak the story gets, there's always that light at the end of the tunnel.
The Nutshell: If a particular character or series is popular, often you'll find fans recreating the fictional world with their own art or stories. Sometimes this will yield in beautiful or awesome artwork that does justice (and sometimes even improves upon) the original source material.
Most of the time, it's porn, often depicting the most popular (but not necessarily the curviest) characters engaged in consensual intercourse, either with their official romancing interest, or any other pairing the fan thinks is more appropriate/hotter. Much of the time, particularly in Japanese doujins, the character is being raped and humiliated by enemies they could have easily defeated on their own, thus recreating a ludicrous situation that dispenses with plot in favor of mastubatory material.
The Argument: But is this really fan disservice, or can the sensual material be seen as flattering? After all, some titles that feature ridiculously endowed women but fails to gain critical or financial popularity are often sparred from the fan treatment. Regardless, the real disservice is the quality of the art or the story itself, which often depicts the character as being uncharacteristically slutty (or again, put in a situation that they would never find themselves in), and often drawn with even larger proportions that transcend all levels of plausibility.
My stance on the issue is that, just like real porn, this is a fan medium that isn't going to go away. If the material is actually put together well and accurately showcases the character's attractive traits, then hey, no harm in enjoying it. But when the material instead goes beyond acceptable means, either with grossly exaggerated proportions or scenarios that are completley ludicrous (a popular one involves Tifa having to satisfy a group of males, usually teenagers, who threaten to blow the whistle on her bar being a secret headquarters for AVALANCHE), then it most certainly is a disservice.
The Nutshell: Belts and zippers, thongs, breastplates that protect the breasts but not much else, the wardrobe of a female character can go all over the place, but most of the time they are designed to titillate in some way. Whether a character is designed first and given a story later or vice-versa is ultimately irrelevant, because somewhere down the line there will always be an exec who demands that no matter what the situation, the character must be "attractive".
The Argument: So a character is wearing something that most real life women wouldn't be caught dead with, but does that make them slutty? It depends, really, but when you've got a game with a title like "Final FANTASY", you shouldn't be hung up on whether someone's outfit is practical enough to traverse a below-zero snowfield or a blazing hot desert. No, it wouldn't function in real life, but who cares as long as the character looks cool?
And many times, it's the characters' personality that determines whether she can confidently walk around in her sexy outfit or not. Celes fighting in what appears to be a one-piece swimsuit doesn't make her any "weaker" than, say, Samus. If it's appropriate enough for the setting of the game, and seems to follow the style of dress in that fictional world, then who are we to judge?
Admittedly, there are times when this ends up being a disservice to the character. One example would be Tifa, who when viewed by someone who has never played the game or read any synopsis, would appear to be a flirtatious character, when contextually she wears a miniskirt so her kicks aren't encumbered (their excuse, not mine). The biggest offender, however, is when the sequel comes along and gives the character an even smaller amount of clothing, as shown by Rikku above. Despite this, her fashion sense still matches the guidelines of the game world she's a part of, in this case a Caribbean island setting. Of course, there are still characters who go beyond the "laws of the world" and wear an even skimpier-than-acceptable outfit, a good example being Mai Shiranui (who is gawked over by practically every male fighter, and is even accused by Chun Li for violating "public decency").
The Nutshell: Pretty much a staple in any game, especially these days with DLC, characters will be given an extra costume that players can equip them with. Often this is done purely for aesthetics and has no bearing whatsoever in the character's status. Sometimes the outfit will follow the character's personality or preference in clothing.
But sometimes it's just some weird animal getup.
The Argument: Essentially this is playing "dress-up" with the character, and sometimes results in them wearing something they would never consider. Males often get extra costumes as well, but they rarely titular the way the bonus female outfits do. Is it a disservice for Chun Li to fight in a cleavage-focused Chinese getup, or does it attribute to her rarely seen features? Does it work in seeing a softer side to a character, or is it just more fap material? Can it be both?
The Nutshell: Too young to develop any noticeable endowments, and too innocent to fall in love (usually), the little girl character is often doted over by the other members of the group, loved and admired like a little sister, and usually inspires everyone around her with her innocent nature and positive outlook.
The Argument: Knowing Japan's....questionable....fandom over underage characters, it's often hard to admit that you're a fan of the character because of her adorable traits or sugary sweet outlook. My stance? As long you're willing to accept that just about every archetype has its own disturbing level of fandom, and don't adjust the camera around to get a look at her panties, then you should be okay.
The Nutshell: Like the Loli, these characters are incredibly energetic, but since their bodies are more developed, it's totally okay to find them hot (even if they are usually under 18. this is still less creepy than the alternative). Oftentimes they're even more positive, showering everyone with their sugary sweet outlook of rainbows and happiness. Or they can be a selfish brat who will rob you blind the first chance they get.
The Argument: For some reason, people tend to really despise these characters, cursing them for their positive outlook and often writing fanfics where they are brutally tortured and murdered. Why? I don't really know myself.
The Nutshell: This character is usually the most generously endowed, and she knows it. She flaunts her stuff in clothing that just skirts the limits of decency, and tends to flirt with every man (and sometimes woman) she comes across, often as a sign of friendly teasing, but usually just so people can throw cash at her DLC costumes.
The Argument: Surely these characters can be considered sluts, right? This is debatable, really. Most of the time, their role is to be the fanservice character, and there's a bit of genre savvy to these women embracing their roles without complaint. In other plot lines, they do this to mask some deep emotional trauma they've endured. As for whether this justifies their promiscuity or not, well....YMMV.
The Nutshell: Oftentimes the Villainess and the Promiscuous One are one and the same, but with the former there is always one major fact: Evil is Sexy. Usually having the largest breasts out of any other female in the game, as well as the most revealing outfit, the Villainess may either be flirtatious or downright psychotic. Either way, you're a dead man.
The Argument: Why is it that the evil characters are usually the hottest? Does it imply that being too beautiful is a bad thing? Or do they display their endowments prominently as a sort of forbidden fruit, as if to taunt players that they can never have what these buxom bitches are packing?
The Nutshell: Again, a trait that sometimes coincides with the Villainess, but is starting to be common among heroines. The Ice Queen is completely frigid in her disinterest in the main character (usually they'll carry a relationship with a secondary male character), often giving frightening glances and often physical punishment for checking out her physical attributes. To them, looking is just as unforgivable as touching.
The Argument: Much like real women, this trope is perplexing: If they don't want attention drawn to them, then why parade around in such elaborate outfits to begin with? It's a bit like that Simpsons episode where Homer enters a bar called Knockers, and is immediately slapped by the waitress for admiring her enormous breasts.
The Nutshell: Usually, the Tomboy lacks the buxom body that other female characters share (though sometimes they coincide, usually to the Tomboy's displeasure), and is interested more in fighting like "one of the guys". Usually they don't form a love interest with the main hero, and instead focus more on protecting the younger, usually weaker female counterpart like an overprotective big sister.
The Argument: As empowering as these women appear, usually they are immediately labeled as lesbians. Sometimes this is because of their general disinterest over the main character and their devotion to their female friend (because the only way girls can ever be close to one another is if they're gay or related, right?). In my opinion, it's probably because 'lesbians are hot", which they totally are. But most of the time, people are probably making a mountain out of a mole hill (and sometimes the developers encourage this, even if they probably don't endorse the idea themselves).
The Nutshell: This character is devoid of basic emotions and functions, and is devoted solely as a living weapon. Oftentimes, this is because she literally is a machine built for war. But eventually, this character may soon develop human traits, perhaps even learning to love.
The Argument: Is this the ultimate male fantasy? An attractive female who obeys her master's every whim without argument? In KOS-MOS' case, her superior is actually female, which has caused many to lump them together with the "lesbians are hot" argument.
As cliched as it is in JPRGs, I've always been a fan of these type of characters; just as it's considered a victory for the main protagonists to hook up in the end, I also consider it a victory to teach the Emtionless One how to think and feel for herself, to smile and, perhaps, to love.
The Nutshell: Try as you might to ignore it, there is a disturbingly large amount of people who totally fantasize about non-human, anthropomorphic characters: if it has breasts, it will probably be ogled by males, whether they're deeply ashamed of it or not.
The Argument: This is another case of YMMV. As for me, I draw the line at FFXI's Mithras. The only furry things about them are their ears and tails, so there's a much bigger emphasis on the "girl" part of "cat girl".
As for, say, Krystal?
No. God No.
Now before we begin: I just want to offer one more guideline:
This is NOT a Character Battle: Please do not use this thread to get into a rant about how "X character is an excellent representation of women. Y character is a two dollar whore-slut who should be dragged across the field by her nipples and eaten by crows". You can use two characters to compare and contrast if it helps your argument, or state your personal distaste for one character in particular, but keep it civil.
We are discussing FICTIONAL Characters and Settings: To avoid causing any personal offenses, please keep real life comparisons, particularly involving real life women, to a minimum. This is NOT a topic about blurring the lines between fiction and reality. Cammy wears a thong in a street fight, you don't. Simple as that.
And if you're going to use images or videos for your arguments, make sure you spoiler tag them and offer a NSFW warning when needed.
But does that mean they should all be objectified? There are still lots of female gamers, and their numbers seem to be increasing if statistics are to be believed. Many of them are fans of the female characters found in games too, so their popularity isn't limited to just hormone-heavy males.
My being one hormone-heavy male notwithstanding, when it comes to videogame characters, I tend to show a great deal of favoritism toward female characters; in fact, if I ever bothered to make a list, I probably have more favorite female characters than male (speaking beyond eye-candy, of course). It's not hard to believe, since women in games tend to have more diverse and often exotic designs (for better or worse), whereas male characters tend to be restricted to just a handful of archetypes (not that I'm against making a thread that's all about the bros, but let's see where this one goes).
Beyond that, I have been eager to get into a big and (hopefully) intelligent discussion, so I'm making the following thread to discuss the role of women in videogames, in their many forms and archetypes. How is their current portrayal? Are things getting better or worse?
To start things off, let's dismiss some common claims about the issue, with my own personal rebuttals.
Videogame Girls are Not Real; Finding Them Attractive Is Wrong
No it isn't. Is it wrong to be find comic book characters like Mary Jane or Catwoman attractive? How about Jessica Rabbit or April O' Neil? Like animation and comic books, videogames are an art form, and people have been getting hot and bothered about fictional portrayals of women (and men) since the Greek days. And with graphics rapidly improving, we'll only be treated to more and more realistically rendered women.
Well....mostly realistic.
Videogame Girls should only be seen as eye candy with no emotional attachment
Again, incorrect. Some of the earliest female characters were popular because people had an emotional attachment to them. Nobody played Metroid just to get a glance at Samus' skintight Zero suit....it didn't even exist until a couple of years ago.
Many games, particularly RPGs, want the players to be emotionally invested in their characters, whether it's the main hero and/or his secondary love interest. The goal of many titles is to become in-tuned with the characters, and help them achieve their goal of a happy ending.
There are, of course, people who claim they can play through something because the gameplay itself is enjoyable, but also hold no interest in any of the characters featured. This isn't exactly a wrong mindset to have (works for me with Halo, in particular), but if you're playing a 50 hour-plus RPG and none of the cast is clicking with you, then something is seriously wrong there.
And since I'm certain it's going to get brought up a lot in this thread, I want to state my own opinion about Samus' character in Other M: In hindsight, there is nothing wrong with giving the previously mute Samus emotions; it doesn't make her less of a character to cry, show fear, be rescued, or even show love (whether platonic or intimate).
What didn't work was the script itself, in which she drones on and on and on about things that are happening before our eyes, constantly stating the obvious when even the most brain-dead gamer can figure out on his own. There are also other bits, such as how she allows herself to be berated by male characters that she clearly outclasses in every conceivable way, but remains silent about it. In other words, it wasn't her personality that was the problem, it was the writing itself.
And now, to bring up a list of common traits and cliches often seen with female characters. Please note that the following statements and arguments, including the character tropes themselves, are taken from various comments, observations, and a couple of hundred trips taken to TV Tropes. They DO NOT reflect my personal opinion, unless when explicitly stated, and are instead used to bring up a range of discussions we can cover in this broad topic about....well, broads.
The Bounce
That uh, that was the only gif I could find that was worksafe. Deal with it.
The Nutshell: Popularized by the Dead or Alive games, it's difficult these days to find a game that doesn't feature some form of breast bouncing. Even previously innocent titles like Sonic and Mario have fallen victim to the polygonal wobble.
The Argument: But should we be rid of it? In my personal view, the unrealistic waterballoon effect found in many Tecmo titles are indeed a ridiculous exaggeration, but still has a place in the appropriate source material (much as he argues, Itagaki knows what drives the sales of his series).
But with the advancement of visual details, including flowing hair and clothing, or accessories like chains and bracelets dangling with each step, it would only prove unrealistic to not have a bit of a swaying, jiggling motion when it comes to the full-featured female characters. Final Fantasy XIII is one such example, adding lots of little details in character animation except on the females' chests, as if encased in concrete. Someone like Vanille hopping about in her tiny top and not having some kind of physics-based effect adds more to uncanny valley than it does without. Square seems to have learned their lesson, having recently added bounciness (but in a perfectly plausible motion) to games like Dissidia and even Kingdom Hearts.
The Damsel in Distress
The Nutshell: Quite possibly the oldest tradition for fictional females, characters will inevitably (if not frequently) find themselves in peril, usually as a pretense for the hero to rush in and save his beloved/platonic companion from the forces of evil.
The Argument: It is also often argued that putting women in these predicaments demeans them, showing them to be powerless unless their mighty man comes in and saves them.
In a sense, they're right, but I don't see it as a form of demoralizing the female character. Rather, I see it as empowering the hero, showing them to be brave and dependable, willing to take on any challenge if it means saving the damsel in distress. If the player is particularly invested in the character in trouble, then it only motivates them to play through and save the character from harm.
After all, nobody thinks that Peach or Zelda are weak and pathetic for being captured. They're just excited because it means another fun adventure with Mario and Link to go rescue them.
Of course, the manner in which a character is captured, along with the repetitive rate that it takes place, can have demoralizing consequences no matter how "heroic" your character may be. Getting swallowed by a tentacle beast and covered in goo? That would certainly do it.
The Lover
The Nutshell: Sooner or later, particularly in an RPG, it's all but guaranteed that the first girl that the main character comes across will end up falling head over heels for the hero, completely devoted to him and doing whatever it takes to end up in his arms. This is usually accompanied by bittersweet pop music, tearful embraces, and (hopefully) a happy ending where the two of them live happily ever after.
The Argument: Like the damsel in distress, it's argued that female characters falling in love is a sign of weakness, showcasing them as being incapable of thinking for themselves and practically pining over a hero who may or may not be interested in her in the first place.
Admittedly, I'm always a sucker for a good, simple romance. Just like how saving the girl from the bad guy is considered an empowering moment for players, winning their hearts is equally as satisfying. This of course could have the opposite effect if the romance is hackneyed and forced, sort of a last act of shoehorning a romance with no subtext. But when handled right, it becomes a satisfying cliche and a sign that no matter how bleak the story gets, there's always that light at the end of the tunnel.
The Fanart/Fanfiction
The Nutshell: If a particular character or series is popular, often you'll find fans recreating the fictional world with their own art or stories. Sometimes this will yield in beautiful or awesome artwork that does justice (and sometimes even improves upon) the original source material.
Most of the time, it's porn, often depicting the most popular (but not necessarily the curviest) characters engaged in consensual intercourse, either with their official romancing interest, or any other pairing the fan thinks is more appropriate/hotter. Much of the time, particularly in Japanese doujins, the character is being raped and humiliated by enemies they could have easily defeated on their own, thus recreating a ludicrous situation that dispenses with plot in favor of mastubatory material.
The Argument: But is this really fan disservice, or can the sensual material be seen as flattering? After all, some titles that feature ridiculously endowed women but fails to gain critical or financial popularity are often sparred from the fan treatment. Regardless, the real disservice is the quality of the art or the story itself, which often depicts the character as being uncharacteristically slutty (or again, put in a situation that they would never find themselves in), and often drawn with even larger proportions that transcend all levels of plausibility.
My stance on the issue is that, just like real porn, this is a fan medium that isn't going to go away. If the material is actually put together well and accurately showcases the character's attractive traits, then hey, no harm in enjoying it. But when the material instead goes beyond acceptable means, either with grossly exaggerated proportions or scenarios that are completley ludicrous (a popular one involves Tifa having to satisfy a group of males, usually teenagers, who threaten to blow the whistle on her bar being a secret headquarters for AVALANCHE), then it most certainly is a disservice.
The Impractical Outfit
The Nutshell: Belts and zippers, thongs, breastplates that protect the breasts but not much else, the wardrobe of a female character can go all over the place, but most of the time they are designed to titillate in some way. Whether a character is designed first and given a story later or vice-versa is ultimately irrelevant, because somewhere down the line there will always be an exec who demands that no matter what the situation, the character must be "attractive".
The Argument: So a character is wearing something that most real life women wouldn't be caught dead with, but does that make them slutty? It depends, really, but when you've got a game with a title like "Final FANTASY", you shouldn't be hung up on whether someone's outfit is practical enough to traverse a below-zero snowfield or a blazing hot desert. No, it wouldn't function in real life, but who cares as long as the character looks cool?
And many times, it's the characters' personality that determines whether she can confidently walk around in her sexy outfit or not. Celes fighting in what appears to be a one-piece swimsuit doesn't make her any "weaker" than, say, Samus. If it's appropriate enough for the setting of the game, and seems to follow the style of dress in that fictional world, then who are we to judge?
Admittedly, there are times when this ends up being a disservice to the character. One example would be Tifa, who when viewed by someone who has never played the game or read any synopsis, would appear to be a flirtatious character, when contextually she wears a miniskirt so her kicks aren't encumbered (their excuse, not mine). The biggest offender, however, is when the sequel comes along and gives the character an even smaller amount of clothing, as shown by Rikku above. Despite this, her fashion sense still matches the guidelines of the game world she's a part of, in this case a Caribbean island setting. Of course, there are still characters who go beyond the "laws of the world" and wear an even skimpier-than-acceptable outfit, a good example being Mai Shiranui (who is gawked over by practically every male fighter, and is even accused by Chun Li for violating "public decency").
The Extra Costume
The Nutshell: Pretty much a staple in any game, especially these days with DLC, characters will be given an extra costume that players can equip them with. Often this is done purely for aesthetics and has no bearing whatsoever in the character's status. Sometimes the outfit will follow the character's personality or preference in clothing.
But sometimes it's just some weird animal getup.
The Argument: Essentially this is playing "dress-up" with the character, and sometimes results in them wearing something they would never consider. Males often get extra costumes as well, but they rarely titular the way the bonus female outfits do. Is it a disservice for Chun Li to fight in a cleavage-focused Chinese getup, or does it attribute to her rarely seen features? Does it work in seeing a softer side to a character, or is it just more fap material? Can it be both?
The Loli
The Nutshell: Too young to develop any noticeable endowments, and too innocent to fall in love (usually), the little girl character is often doted over by the other members of the group, loved and admired like a little sister, and usually inspires everyone around her with her innocent nature and positive outlook.
The Argument: Knowing Japan's....questionable....fandom over underage characters, it's often hard to admit that you're a fan of the character because of her adorable traits or sugary sweet outlook. My stance? As long you're willing to accept that just about every archetype has its own disturbing level of fandom, and don't adjust the camera around to get a look at her panties, then you should be okay.
The Energetic Teen
The Nutshell: Like the Loli, these characters are incredibly energetic, but since their bodies are more developed, it's totally okay to find them hot (even if they are usually under 18. this is still less creepy than the alternative). Oftentimes they're even more positive, showering everyone with their sugary sweet outlook of rainbows and happiness. Or they can be a selfish brat who will rob you blind the first chance they get.
The Argument: For some reason, people tend to really despise these characters, cursing them for their positive outlook and often writing fanfics where they are brutally tortured and murdered. Why? I don't really know myself.
The Promiscuous One
The Nutshell: This character is usually the most generously endowed, and she knows it. She flaunts her stuff in clothing that just skirts the limits of decency, and tends to flirt with every man (and sometimes woman) she comes across, often as a sign of friendly teasing, but usually just so people can throw cash at her DLC costumes.
The Argument: Surely these characters can be considered sluts, right? This is debatable, really. Most of the time, their role is to be the fanservice character, and there's a bit of genre savvy to these women embracing their roles without complaint. In other plot lines, they do this to mask some deep emotional trauma they've endured. As for whether this justifies their promiscuity or not, well....YMMV.
The Villainess
The Nutshell: Oftentimes the Villainess and the Promiscuous One are one and the same, but with the former there is always one major fact: Evil is Sexy. Usually having the largest breasts out of any other female in the game, as well as the most revealing outfit, the Villainess may either be flirtatious or downright psychotic. Either way, you're a dead man.
The Argument: Why is it that the evil characters are usually the hottest? Does it imply that being too beautiful is a bad thing? Or do they display their endowments prominently as a sort of forbidden fruit, as if to taunt players that they can never have what these buxom bitches are packing?
The Ice Queen
The Nutshell: Again, a trait that sometimes coincides with the Villainess, but is starting to be common among heroines. The Ice Queen is completely frigid in her disinterest in the main character (usually they'll carry a relationship with a secondary male character), often giving frightening glances and often physical punishment for checking out her physical attributes. To them, looking is just as unforgivable as touching.
The Argument: Much like real women, this trope is perplexing: If they don't want attention drawn to them, then why parade around in such elaborate outfits to begin with? It's a bit like that Simpsons episode where Homer enters a bar called Knockers, and is immediately slapped by the waitress for admiring her enormous breasts.
The Tomboy
The Nutshell: Usually, the Tomboy lacks the buxom body that other female characters share (though sometimes they coincide, usually to the Tomboy's displeasure), and is interested more in fighting like "one of the guys". Usually they don't form a love interest with the main hero, and instead focus more on protecting the younger, usually weaker female counterpart like an overprotective big sister.
The Argument: As empowering as these women appear, usually they are immediately labeled as lesbians. Sometimes this is because of their general disinterest over the main character and their devotion to their female friend (because the only way girls can ever be close to one another is if they're gay or related, right?). In my opinion, it's probably because 'lesbians are hot", which they totally are. But most of the time, people are probably making a mountain out of a mole hill (and sometimes the developers encourage this, even if they probably don't endorse the idea themselves).
The Emotionless One
The Nutshell: This character is devoid of basic emotions and functions, and is devoted solely as a living weapon. Oftentimes, this is because she literally is a machine built for war. But eventually, this character may soon develop human traits, perhaps even learning to love.
The Argument: Is this the ultimate male fantasy? An attractive female who obeys her master's every whim without argument? In KOS-MOS' case, her superior is actually female, which has caused many to lump them together with the "lesbians are hot" argument.
As cliched as it is in JPRGs, I've always been a fan of these type of characters; just as it's considered a victory for the main protagonists to hook up in the end, I also consider it a victory to teach the Emtionless One how to think and feel for herself, to smile and, perhaps, to love.
The Furry
The Nutshell: Try as you might to ignore it, there is a disturbingly large amount of people who totally fantasize about non-human, anthropomorphic characters: if it has breasts, it will probably be ogled by males, whether they're deeply ashamed of it or not.
The Argument: This is another case of YMMV. As for me, I draw the line at FFXI's Mithras. The only furry things about them are their ears and tails, so there's a much bigger emphasis on the "girl" part of "cat girl".
As for, say, Krystal?
No. God No.
Now before we begin: I just want to offer one more guideline:
This is NOT a Character Battle: Please do not use this thread to get into a rant about how "X character is an excellent representation of women. Y character is a two dollar whore-slut who should be dragged across the field by her nipples and eaten by crows". You can use two characters to compare and contrast if it helps your argument, or state your personal distaste for one character in particular, but keep it civil.
We are discussing FICTIONAL Characters and Settings: To avoid causing any personal offenses, please keep real life comparisons, particularly involving real life women, to a minimum. This is NOT a topic about blurring the lines between fiction and reality. Cammy wears a thong in a street fight, you don't. Simple as that.
And if you're going to use images or videos for your arguments, make sure you spoiler tag them and offer a NSFW warning when needed.
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qBniJN-u65U
A lot of your arguments are based on narrative justification, which has nothing to do with whether it's sexist or objectified as a creation. You can write lore to explain why all the dudes are wearing 10 ton armor and the women metal bikinis, or offer ludicrous explanations like Tifa's miniskirt, but that doesn't explain why you designed the character that way and wrote the lore to justify it. Rachel is wearing bondage gear and covered in goo because Itagaki wanted her that way.
I'll leave the rest aside, including whether clothing makes someone "slutty." Also, this probably belongs in D&D.
Also, while not the fault of the character herself, I had trouble warming up to Meryl due to her incredibly weird hair (as it was portrayed in the PSX version). Funny enough, it wasn't until MGS4 that I started to appreciate the character, even though by then she had taken exercising lessons by She Hulk.
I also found her relationship with Snake a little forced, as per my above statement. Just a little bit, due to the pacing of the game, which has her a mind-controlled victim in one scene, and immediately after as sniper bait.
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This generally makes the point I want to make, that these are narrative choices and can be traced back to a certain frame of reference that the author has, but I wanted to add a couple of things.
Full disclosure: I like a lot of women video game characters, and am not above "turning my brain off" and enjoying the mechanics of something. But I think the important part of feminist criticism is not that we find answers to the questions asked, but merely that we ask the questions of ourselves, rather than taking things as a given.
Feminist criticism (and deconstructionism) says that these expectations and ways of motivating young men to action are not there because they are necessarily a natural part of the working world, but because we have enforced them as an inherent patriarchy. If the young man has a quest, and he needs a sword, then he needs a woman to do it for, and she must be both pretty and inoffensive enough that she can be the object (active word here) of desire.
I think many developers are trying to do away with the damsel idea, although it might only be because it's been done so many times.
I would say choice is key in this kind of presentation, usually. If the female falls in love with the hero simply because he's the hero, then she might as well be a cardboard cutout. There needs to be some obvious kind of decision making...some reasons why the woman does what she does so that she's cast as an individual rather than a prize. Prince of Persia and Enslaved are two good examples, where the relationship is closer to being mutually dependent on one another, and it's obvious throughout the story. There's still elements of the damsel in there, but to a much lesser degree.
The problem with taking a character and placing her in situations you want her to be in is that it completely circumvents the character part of the equation. It is a forced enterprise from the outset, and the fact that fanart is usually of a sexual nature tends to overshadow whatever flattery might be in it. "Awkward" would be putting it lightly.
There's a deeper problem there of the fetishization of characters as things. The suggestion seems to be that making this kind of fanart is okay because the women aren't real people. Which is true. But I think some feminists would argue it's representative of a mindset that women are generally there to be used for a man's needs and then disposed of.
Ka-Chung!
Ka-Chung!
Hm? Why not?
You're goddamn Commander fucking Shepard
Of course women throw themselves at you
Unless you're femshep, in which case men and women throw themselves at you
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Do you have any data proving that, or is this just one of those pieces of common knowledge that is no longer correct but everyone keeps believing it anyway?
Are Facebook games "video games"? A lot of them are not very sophisticated stuff, but I think most people would argue that they are in fact games. A quick googling of Facebook demographics shows that out of its 44 million US users, 55% are female. A study commissioned by PopCap shows that the average social gamer is a 43-year-old woman.
Even if you're discounting social gaming, here's a survey from Pew Internet Project showing that the breakdown between men and women is almost evenly split: http://www.itfacts.biz/demographics-of-adult-gamers/12814 (although the source it's linking to is broken. But that includes cell phone games, you say. Those aren't real video games either.
Well, the ESA demographics show that 40% of gamers are female. Do you think it was a primarily male demographic that kept Just Dance on or near the top of the sales charts for months?
The idea of only males playing video games is outdated and obsolete, and repeating it without questioning it perpetuates the problem. (I realize that you mentioned there are lots of female gamers, but I don't think you were aware that it's getting pretty close to an even split)
Really though, is there an actual lesbian option for femshep? I know Liara is possible but she's technically an alien that doesn't belong to any gender. Although yeah, those aliens all look like females. But is there a human fem/fem sex scene? Jack, for instance? I never tried.
Totally different.
And, actually, for the first point, they've gone in the opposite direction. In ME1, the two human people were supposed to go both ways but they cut it because they said they ran out of time (there are unused voice files on the disc). The second one has no male/male content because "Shepard is a predefined character and that's not the story we're telling." Even though it apparently is when it's a lady Shepard.
But that goes off the topic of this thread, so focus on my first point.
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You know, when it comes to sexuality in BioWare games, I prefer Jade Empire and Dragon Age. Both have straight, gay and lesbian romances.
Even better than that, Jack is completely bisexual, but if you're playing as a FemShep, she goes "Yeah, I'm not into girls anymore". Just after telling you a story about hooking up with a couple and going on a sexy crime spree.
Also, dear god do I hope we start getting more strong female protagonists in gaming. Where's the video game equivalent of Veronica Mars?
All right, so she isn't playable...but she is a major character! And the actual main character (Virginia) is just as awesome, in a different way.
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Well, you're describing The Damsel in Distress approach in its purest form. The mechanics have changed some over the years, but the principle remains the same: sooner or later, the female character will find herself in a situation she can't get out of, and it's usually up to you (the hero) to save her.
I don't think this is something that will ever go away, but again, I don't feel like it demeans the character either, though that sort of depends on the situation. Like someone mentioned above, Rachel being snatched by a tentacle monster and covered in goo? That's all kinds of demeaning, and just shy away from hentai material (not like that's a shock, given who was in charge); it only goes downhill from there when she's imperiled several more times afterward.
But in an RPG like Lunar or Xenogears? The finales to those games wouldn't have felt nearly as epic had the stakes been not as high.
I guess the best way to put it: if you enjoy the romantic subplot between two characters, you shouldn't find it a chore to go save her. It's a mutual gain in that respect.
Are those really good examples of "choice"? I've only played the demo to Enslaved, but from what it looks like, the main character is stuck with the female character whether he likes it or not. Same goes for the Prince of Persia games. It's kind of like Beauty and the Beast; the characters are stuck with each other, so it could be argued that their feelings are a result of Stockholm Syndrome.
Keep in mind I don't necessarily agree with any of the arguments I posted, I just relayed some of the common statements I've read over the years.
Personally, when I'm looking at fan-art (the non-sexual kind), my biggest complaint is usually geared toward the character's curves being over-exaggerated (though sometimes the reverse occurs....but not often), and/or they're wearing something or doing something that's completely out of character for them. I'm not referring to something like the Tomboy wearing a more feminine getup, things like that are fine, but something like Sephiroth sharing an ice-cream with Aerith? Now that's just stupid.
I didn't really see it that way, personally. Most of the women will remain neutral with you until you bring up a flirtatious text option.
Kelly of course is the exception, but I don't think it's a stretch to say that she's the Promiscuous One, although in a more behind-the-scenes fashion. There's more then enough evidence to suggest that she likes to get particularly "friendly" with aliens of all kinds.
I really was speaking in a generalized, console-specific fashion. You've got evidence that says overall more girls are playing than guys? Fine, I won't debate it. But it's still obvious enough that the majority of games being made are still being developed with the mindset that males are the target audience.
Also, nowhere in my statement did I mention that only males played games. I never believed in such an event, not even during the early days of consoles. I have my sister as proof of that, as she got into Mario and Sonic almost as quickly as I did.
I'm really curious if this is true.
Not true. I recall a conversation where she reminisces about a pair of outlaws she hung out with, one male and one female, and how she would frequently have sex with both of them, either separately or at the same time. I think there was another line where she mentions having slept around with pretty much any man and woman that she came across.
Keep in mind she has no preference, though; to her, sex is an act and nothing more, so it's no surprise that she wouldn't be hung up on genders. I don't think they ever establish whether that includes aliens, though.
Edit: Beaten slightly.
I was originally planning to include a short list of some of my favorite female characters in the OP, characters who don't necessarily define female empowerment, but have enough depth to them that they transcend being just mere eye candy.
But I'm hesitant as I'm afraid that might open up a can of worms that may deter from the topic, even if it is just personal opinion.
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*bro fist-bump*
:?
Well if you play a female Shepard the male squadmates are stumbling over themselves to get in your pants so... equal treatment?
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This is ridiculous. Games don't exist in a vacuum, they are made by real people living in the real world. You can explain anything you want with "but it's fantasy!" but the fact of the matter is that fantasy is influenced by real mindsets and in turn influences real mindsets. A girl made of polygons prancing around in a bikini is just as harmful as the real thing and perpetuates a cycle of objectification.
I think that was just a line shoehorned by execs to keep FemShep players from trying to seduce her. Unless there's some specific side-story that details why Jack decides to swear off women, there's no established reason why she would now only exclusively stick to men.
For me, the most acceptable answer would be that women couldn't handle her roughness in bed. Quick explanation, easily plausible.
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Who exactly are you speaking to here
Everybody seems fairly reasonable so far
Really? I think the most acceptable answer is that Jack, as an individual, can choose not to sleep with women for a while. There doesn't have to be a side-story that details her reasons why. Not every nuance of a character has to be given explanation - something video game writers forget sometimes.
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The thing is, Jack is a certified psychopath. Usually they don't change their sleeping habits out of the blue for no discernible reason.
Sure, it could be argued that she's only labeled as a psychopath, and can freely choose what she wants to do like a fully functional person. But seeing what she's capable of as well as her other statements ("I still feel like killing everyone around me"), that's kind of a stretch.
It feels more like her character to say "girls are too weak, fuck 'em".
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My girlfriend is bi and she has never slept with a woman
Yes, people can have sexual tastes and just choose not to indulge themselves in that taste from time to time
It's honestly kind of offensive what you're saying here
Being a bisexual doesn't mean you lust after both sexes all the time
I mean, that's just as ludicrous as saying bi people want threesomes all the time or something stupid like that
Is your girlfriend a telekinetic psychopath who dreams of murdering everyone around her, and, at best, will make statements about "filleting" her own comrades?
My statement is focused on Jack being mentally unstable, not being bisexual. Read it again.
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Clothing: There's nothing wrong with a character showing a lot of skin, so long as it's consistent with her personality and combat functions. Take Rikku: young, cocky, kind of a show-off, doesn't take anything too seriously. Classed as a Thief, focuses on speed and evasion rather than taking hits. No problems here. Anyone with above-average defense should probably be covered up below the neck.
Damsel in Distress: Kidnapped love interest stories are older than God and never, ever going away. As long as most protagonists (of any) medium) are 1) straight) and 2) male, that means rescuing girls. The related save the princess who may or not also be a love interest plot is also going to stick around, if only because of retro enthusiasts who want reconstruction-minded plots harking back to the 1980s. If a plot has any sort of substance, though, kidnapped women should at least try to contribute to their own rescue and the ultimate downfall of the villain.
Sexuality is its own seperate entity from everything else about you
Just because she's a psychopath doesn't mean that she got bored of women or something
She could've just chosen to not have sex with women
The fact that you need an explanation beyond "I just don't want to have sex with women" reveals your ignorance on the issue
bi people aren't necessarily bi all the time, and believing so is ignorant regardless
Also keep in mind that I am speaking purely on the grounds of Mass Effect being a plot-heavy series, where most of the time a character's personality traits and nuances are over-analyzed through dialog choices and exposition. There's hardly anything that's left out, no matter how insignificant to the overall story.
Which is why, again, Jack's statement about swearing off girls feels like it could use more exposition, because on it's own it feels more like executive meddling (which it obviously is) to keep her from being romanced by FemShep. Again, this is regarding the actual in-game universe, and not a statement about real-life bisexuality and/or psychopathy.
Adding real-life examples to things that happen in fiction rarely tend to work, so let's just leave the two separate.
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...
Because nothing in fiction is ever based on reality right?
and the gengars who are guiding me" -- W.S. Merwin
Not when you over-analyze things that probably weren't intended to be viewed with absolute accuracy, especially in a fantasy/futuristic setting filled with talking animals and interstellar aliens.
Try visiting The Walking Dead thread some time, where people go at length discussing the efficiency of the military, the damaging effect of a crossbow shot from a certain distance, and even the sound of concrete as an ax is chopping up a corpse.
Serious Business.
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