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Help me purchase a stab-resistant vest
hardxcore_conservative
Registered User regular
Registered User regular
Hey all.
I'm starting this plainclothes security job, and I am told there is a basic certainty of confrontation. Not wanting to die, I feel it is only right to cover my bases and buy a stab-vest.
So!
Can anyone recommend a decent make and model? I'm not looking for anything bullet-resistant, just something that'll save me from getting gutted by that big old dirty shank while I'm making an arrest. Protection of the back is something I'd like to emphasize.
Bear in mind that I live in Canada, so availability is an issue. I would also like it to be concealable. (There are no legal restrictions on body armor, but I might technically be violating company policy.)
Thanks in advance!
I'm starting this plainclothes security job, and I am told there is a basic certainty of confrontation. Not wanting to die, I feel it is only right to cover my bases and buy a stab-vest.
So!
Can anyone recommend a decent make and model? I'm not looking for anything bullet-resistant, just something that'll save me from getting gutted by that big old dirty shank while I'm making an arrest. Protection of the back is something I'd like to emphasize.
Bear in mind that I live in Canada, so availability is an issue. I would also like it to be concealable. (There are no legal restrictions on body armor, but I might technically be violating company policy.)
Thanks in advance!
hardxcore_conservative on
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A not-at-all-unrealistic scenario:
"What are you wearing?"
"This fancy body armor that people on the internets told me is good."
"Didn't I tell you that body armor isn't allowed on the job?"
"Yeah, but you said we might get in fights so I want to protect myself from getting stabbed."
"Well congratulations, you've done a great job. You won't get stabbed if you're at home. You're fired."
I appreciate your opinion, but I'm not really asking about professional ethics.
What he is saying is don't ask the internet, ask your supervisor who (presumably) knows what is allowed and works and what isn't allowed and/or doesn't work.
I find it very hard to believe a company would acknowledge you will be in dangerous situations but not protect you or at the least allow you to protect yourself. That would be a very poor legal defense for them. But I'm not Canadian so I don't understand how non-police officers can make arrests / what kind of job you'll really be doing.
http://www.spycatcheronline.co.uk/black-weatherproof-disguised-bulletstabproof-jacket-p-380.html?currency=USD
But considering that this is your life we're talking about, I think it would be better to ask people who actually knows about this stuff.
Also the 'no body armor' thing could mean a ton of things. It could mean 'don't show up in a bomb squad outfit' for all we know.
Basically, talk to your employers.
If you're comfortable with the idea, get yourself a large slab of beef or pork at your grocery store or from your butcher, hang it up, and take a few swings and jabs at it with a knife (or even multiple knives) from varying angles and with different amounts of pressure. Even try getting a cut through a thick pair of Levi's. The goal of the exercise is to familiarize oneself with the relationship between varying pressure, speed, angles, clothes, etc and how they relate to knives and cutting.
If you are going to get in any kind of knife confrontation, you will most likely be cut. That's just how it is. However, as you'll notice if you work with a beef slab for a little bit, a quick pass with a knife over you won't do much if there isn't a good bit of force behind it. This information alone won't protect you, but it is knowledge that, if I were in your shoes, I would arm myself with.
What I'm trying to say is that if you want to get something high quality, it's going to be seriously expensive. Expensive enough that unless you're working with an armoured car company, I'd be wary of purchasing it on your own, and furthermore, if its a job that is that hazardous, the company really should be either supplying you with that gear or at least able to set you up with a discount through a supplier they know.
Body armour is also extremely hot and tiring. I've worn a vest during one of the hottest summers we've had here in Toronto for a 12 hour shift (8am to 8pm), and believe me, by the time you crack it open you can see steam coming off yourself. It's not terribly heavy... at first, but 6 hours in that extra couple of pounds, slightly restricted movement and trapped heat can feel like an order of magnitude more.
Now, I don't have any experience with "knife resistant" gear, but I believe for that kind of thing you have to start looking at ceramic or metal plates, both of which are likely to be even heavier. Also, regardless of the type you get, you have to choose between internal (under the shirt) and external vests. My experience is with the former, and believe me, it's a pain in the ass. You spend a good bit of each day just getting it all settled in place as you like it, and then when you crack it all open to take a break, another couple hours getting it back in place. External carriers are supposedly easier to work with, but that comes with its own set of problems, such as whether or not the workplace is willing to let you look like a SWAT member on duty. This was the reason we worn internal vests; the company didn't want the intimidation factor to be an issue what with the retail tenants and 3 office towers attached to the site.
So, it's expensive, it may be unwieldy, and while "not getting stabbed" is a laudable goal, you should definitely speak to your supervisor to ensure that it's permitted gear where you work, if it is; whether they supply or can at least get you a discount on it, and whether you're potentially willing to take that cost on, based on how many hours (weeks, months, etc) you'll have to work just to pay this piece of gear off. To the best of my knowledge here in Toronto, any security team that allows or requires vests to be worn will typically supply their own, along with uniforms, boots, handcuffs and possibly other gear as required or resources permitting.
You can purchase a stab resistant vest for a couple Of hundred dollars online. It's really
Not that big of a deal. They aren't that bulky so you should be able to conceal it under
your shirt pretty easy. Also if you get fired for wearing a simple stab vest, you really really
really didn't need that job anyway.
And if they fire you, call a fucking lawyer and get a juicy settlement to keep from throwing their name all over the local papers.
This may actually be a liability thing, as in you purchase your own equipment, wear that instead of the more uncomfortable yet better protecting company provided stuff, get injured because your shit doesn't meet some security/insurance/protection standard and then your company gets left holding the bag
Seriously, talk to the people who hired you before you drop fat cash on something that may not actually protect you, or fit you, at all
I host a podcast about movies.
That said, if you're that concerned about dealing with people with knives, do you really want to skimp on your protective gear?
As for a $100 stab resistant vest? Hell, I think the carriers we use cost more than that. Life saving gear is the last thing I want to be going to the budget counter for. Hence why I still strongly recommend checking with a supervisor as to permitted gear and whether or not you'll be supplied with it. Be a shame to drop a couple hundred bucks and be told to put it in your locker and don the supplied gear.
Plus, these things aren't really just shirts. You don't just order an XL and call it a day, the high quality stuff is custom fitted to varying degrees.
You said plains clothes so I guess blending in and not standing out of the crowd with body armor is what your employer wants.
As well the first rule of getting in a fight with a guy with a knife... dont.
Honestly though, the odds that you will get into a knife fight are extremely low. Anything big enough to carry enough momentum and weight to be effective will be readily visible, anything small enough to be surprising is going to create puncture wounds and not slashes. Very low lethality, and once spotted becomes more of a hinderance than anything. An empty hand can block, grip, twist, and throw; a shank is really only good at feints and pokes.
That being said, when the extremly unlikely does occur, the shank is generally a surprise tactic, held tightly in the hand like a puncturing fist and thrust upwards sharply into the soft midsection. A good kidney belt is enough to protect against the majority of these kinds of surprises. Your own rib cage provides excellent protection, and with the small knives and objects that fill this role, there are very, very few spots on your body that are going to put you down more than piss you off.
Remember, although you may face confrontation, your role is to likely to de-escalate that confrontation. If your role was to engage and retain your opponent, your company should be providing you with the appropriate skills and tools.
This makes it a terrible accessory choice for anybody who naturally smells like trouble, as its essentially giving the law a free hand to do whatever they feel needs doing.
Basically you can carry a knive as long as it doesn't fall in to the following description:
And you have a reasonable, lawful reason to carry it. For instance, I have no reasonable or lawful reason to carry my 6" Buck Knife in downtown Winnipeg (theoretically Self-Defense is reasonable but not lawful). If an RCMP or Manitoba Conservation Officer were to see it strapped to my belt whilst Canoeing the lakes and rivers of the Whiteshell region, I'd simply state that I keep it close at hand for emergency use should I need to free myself from tangled ropes or weeds, both a reasonable and lawful use in that terrain.
Alternatively, a Swiss Army knife could be reasonably and lawfully carried nearly everywhere, as the various tools included make it reasonably useful in a wide variety of lawful situations.
Note: Self Defense is not a lawful reason to carry a knife in Canada.
Most bullet resistant armor is also effectively knife proof even if isn't rated as such.
Unfortunately, most concealable armor tends to fit a bit high on the torso so your lower abdomen as well as your neck will still be exposed.
Remember that none of this 100% -
http://www.policeone.com/edged-weapons/articles/1271123-British-officer-knifed-to-death-despite-wearing-stab-proof-armor/
The fundamental truth about any fight involving a knife is that someone will almost always get cut. You may not get stabbed in the kidney, but try subduing someone with a knife. Any small movement with the knife will cut you, and it doesn't take a deep cut or strong attack to cause a life-threatening wound (a slash across your wrist, for example). Body armor is very poor defense against someone wielding a knife who is willing to use it, because once you close the distance your entire body is vulnerable, not just the torso. This is why cops love things like tasers and pepper spray - no one wants to fuck with a maniac when you can just incapacitate them from far away first.
Your arms have the brachial, ulnar and radial arteries, your legs have lots of critical arteries, and your neck has, well, your neck. I highly suggest wearing stab-resistant clothing rather then relying on a vest. In England, they do a lot of that, including stab-resistant suits or more casual apparel.
And while you're wearing all this stab resistant clothing, what happens when you get shot? :P
Might not want to blow a whole ton of cash on a suit of armor when you're not going to run into the kind of weapons it's designed for.
I have a friend who worked plain clothes security for about 5 years before becoming a teacher.
He saw a LOT of confrontation. LOTS.
Not the type, however, that body armor is designed for. Mostly it was middle-aged women screaming at him when he caught them shoplifting. He was once maced, but that also isn't really something you can defend with body armor.
I don't think he ever had a single physical altercation (even the mace guy! he just grabbed him by the arm and the guy just gave up).
So, context is pretty key, but I think the advice to talk to co-workers is really solid. Heck, pretty much any "I have a new job, should I do _____" is probably best answered with, "Ask the other people who work there."
"Confrontation" would probably rarely involve a weapon of any sort, but whatever helps him get through the day.
get some training, and simple familiarity with how a knife actually works will put you at an advantage in the statistical majority of situations.
Registered just for the Mass Effect threads | Steam: click ^^^ | Origin: curlyhairedboy
Maybe some of this?
I'd second this, some self defense knowledge would probably be more effective than armor. Most security guards that i've seen are just big intimidating dudes, but have no idea what to do in a fight. Krav Maga is decidedly brutal and using it might be against company policy (aren't most of them Observe and Report-centric?). But i'd say, any company that will fire you for defending yourself to the best of your ability can go fuck themselves.
A martial art / self defense training is an excellent idea, but if not Krav Maga perhaps something like Judo or BJJ? Any art/form/defense where there is an emphasis on grappling could be very useful in potentially arresting someone, and even if you have the skills to throw devastating kicks and punches, doing so without a life threating situation occurring could well be the end of ones career in many situations.
But again, it depends on the locale. If you're bouncing at a late night bar, a little more brawling style may be accepted, if still not a good idea (legally). VIP/Strip Club? Probably. Walking the floor of The Eaton Centre? Not so much. Scarborough Centre? Man, I'd want power armour to walk that floor. Full on fucking Iron Man gear.
Who the hell doesn't know how a knife works? It's a simple wedge, focusing force onto a small point to aid breakage and converting force applied to its blunt end into forces perpendicular to its inclined surfaces.
that's the theory. in practice, a lot of folks have trouble getting desired results without experience.
Registered just for the Mass Effect threads | Steam: click ^^^ | Origin: curlyhairedboy
Yeah, I just couldn't resist the urge to make a "how it works" joke at your expense.
Chain mail is pretty shitty against stabbing weapons.
A quick note:
Any Judo teacher that claims to know how to disarm a determined attacker armed with a knife is full of shit and is to be avoided. Give me 10 seconds with him/her and I'll leave them bruised in all sorts of neat ways from a training blade.
Yah see, one of the big problems with knives is Hollywood. No, really. People see all sorts of shit on the big screen/tv and get it into their head that that's how "knife fight" (and I use that term very loosely) work and unfortunately this can get people into trouble. Granted, this works both ways so that with proper training, you can deal with most punks pretty easily since they got all their information from watching Generic Action Movie 2. However you don't want to have that hero shit in your head and run into someone who actually does know what they're doing and know how to end you in all sorts of messed up ways.
While a Judo/Krav Maga course is still a fantastic idea just in terms of general self-defense, I'd take anything they teach you about "knife defense" with a few metric tons of salt.
I also second the entire issue of talking to your boss before you go and waste money. Get the specifics of your day to day duties and what sort of confrontation you might encounter. A company that encourages wearing protective gear is going to have a list of approved sources in order to mitigate liability issues. If you buy something that they haven't approved and it fails, then you're fucked. However if it's approved equipment and it fails then you'll very likely be compensated and have your expenses covered.
If the company has no approved equipment but does allow you to get your own stuff, then I'd suggest going somewhere other than the PAX forums for advice tbh. There are plenty of security oriented forums that can guide you.
In case this was directed towards my suggestion, perhaps I was unclear, but I was recommending some form of training in case the OP needed to arrest or assist in arresting someone, which is essentially grappling while trying not to look bad in front of the public (again, since we don't know where he's working, that is admittedly built on several assumptions).
I'm sure there are places in Canada where getting shanked is a serious concern in the security industry, but working in a complex that sees over a million visitors a week, has a sizable security staff and deals with a wide variety of problems (from simply escorting panhandlers off site to medical emergencies, fights, arrests for a variety of reasons, etc) I think the last time an officer was stabbed was over a decade ago, before I joined the team.
I'm not trying to challenge the OP's assertion that getting stabbed is a serious possibility in their line of work, just trying to offer what insight I have after working with a security department for nearly a decade in one of the busiest shopping malls in Canada.