Yet every time I say that it seems people jump on me and claim I have no idea what I am talking about and my opinion sucks about Zelda.
TP had it's problems. It wasn't very original, it was super linear, and it was a little slow at the start.
It's still a solid game and one of the best of this generation. Great graphics, good use of the over world, great characters, and fun temples.
TP is not a perfect game, it's still a FUN game.
Twilight Princess is one of my favourite games ever made, I loved pretty much everything about it and was genuinely sad when it ended. Don't worry, we can be "wrong" together
Yet every time I say that it seems people jump on me and claim I have no idea what I am talking about and my opinion sucks about Zelda.
TP had it's problems. It wasn't very original, it was super linear, and it was a little slow at the start.
It's still a solid game and one of the best of this generation. Great graphics, good use of the over world, great characters, and fun temples.
TP is not a perfect game, it's still a FUN game.
Twilight Princess is one of my favourite games ever made, I loved pretty much everything about it and was genuinely sad when it ended. Don't worry, we can be "wrong" together
Me too. I wonder if they'll do anything to these games as well. It might be kind of neat if they do a quasi-3d effect with them (like the sprites are raised out a bit from the background or something).
Pretty sure they won't. The 3D Classics line is separate from the Virtual Console (and questionable as to when any will arrive anyway at this point - it takes more than a simple conversion to do it right). We also haven't seen/heard anybody playing Mario Land or Zelda DX in 3D.
Also, old systems like the NES and GB used a lot of tricks to enhance the graphics, so a number of sprites might be used as objects besides characters, enemies and bullets. They can used to simulate scrolling/parallax effects or enhance certain sections of the background. In other words, sprites popping out would look weird in a lot of places.
Yet every time I say that it seems people jump on me and claim I have no idea what I am talking about and my opinion sucks about Zelda.
TP had it's problems. It wasn't very original, it was super linear, and it was a little slow at the start.
It's still a solid game and one of the best of this generation. Great graphics, good use of the over world, great characters, and fun temples.
TP is not a perfect game, it's still a FUN game.
Twilight Princess is one of my favourite games ever made, I loved pretty much everything about it and was genuinely sad when it ended. Don't worry, we can be "wrong" together
I'm with you! *fist bump*
Yeah, I agree with all you. I thought it had by a good margin some of the best supporting character work in a Zelda game, only hampered by Nintendo's somewhat stingy production values.
DHS on
"Grip 'em up, grip 'em, grip 'em good, said the Gryphon... to the pig."
0
Warlock82Never pet a burning dogRegistered Userregular
Me too. I wonder if they'll do anything to these games as well. It might be kind of neat if they do a quasi-3d effect with them (like the sprites are raised out a bit from the background or something).
Pretty sure they won't. The 3D Classics line is separate from the Virtual Console (and questionable as to when any will arrive anyway at this point - it takes more than a simple conversion to do it right). We also haven't seen/heard anybody playing Mario Land or Zelda DX in 3D.
Also, old systems like the NES and GB used a lot of tricks to enhance the graphics, so a number of sprites might be used as objects besides characters, enemies and bullets. They can used to simulate scrolling/parallax effects or enhance certain sections of the background. In other words, sprites popping out would look weird in a lot of places.
Right, I know that. It's more wishful thinking on my part I mean, they could probably encode something in the emulator/rom to say "what should be 3d" but that's a lot of extra work that I don't see Nintendo doing :P There are a handful of games that don't use these tricks though - it would be neat even if it was selectively available. (ex: I don't think Mario Land does, but then it has been awhile)
I wish they would say more about their 3d classics stuff though. Back on the topic of Zelda, I'd still love to see a 3d version of the first Legend of Zelda where say, the dungeon walls and blocks popped out in sort of a diorama fashion. Or really, I will take any form of Zelda 2 because I love that game
Back on the topic of Zelda, I'd still love to see a 3d version of the first Legend of Zelda where say, the dungeon walls and blocks popped out in sort of a diorama fashion.
Here's my updated Zelda Android theme, now running Cyanogenmod.
Still need to change the wifi indicator to a triforce and the cell signal to a heartpiece. I'm having no luck figuring out how to do that, which is disappointing since it was so easy to do on my ipod touch.
I think most of the credit TLOZ: OOT gets is due to nostalgia.
I played OOT for the first time in 2002, when I was in college. Still loved it.
I played it for the first time a few years later under the same circumstances. Quit partway through the second dungeon, was kind of bored by it and put off by graphics, frame rate and control.
TP was good, but going back to windwaker right after playing TP I could easily tell the gameplay in WW was wayyyy smoother. Jumping platforms, sword fighting, everything just felt a lot more fluid.
I really really enjoyed TP, but it left me with a feeling of "Okay Nintendo, you've kind of exhausted your OoT cred. If you remake the same exact goddamn game one more time I don't think I can do it."
I really really enjoyed TP, but it left me with a feeling of "Okay Nintendo, you've kind of exhausted your OoT cred. If you remake the same exact goddamn game one more time I don't think I can do it."
The irony is fans wanted a game like TP and got exactly what they asked for.
King Riptor on
I have a podcast now. It's about video games and anime!Find it here.
The irony is fans wanted a game like TP and got exactly what they asked for.
When people say this I can't help but think they're talking about two different sets of people.
I mean, half the Zelda fans read this and say "But I didn't want just another game like OoT."
The other half say "Exactly, I wanted more OoT and I got it, and it was great."
Is there really a significant amount of people who both wanted OoT and don't like that they got more of it?
Furthermore, is TP really that much like OoT? I didn't like Ocarina, and though Twilight Princess was far better. Much more interesting, more interactive, not such a small-feeling world.
You just had to be there in 1998 to appreciate how amazing and influential OoT was. It was first shown in 1995, three years before its release, on a system that was getting demolished by Sony, was delayed numerous times, got widespread press coverage during that period, questioning whether it'd meet expectations and save the N64 from the brink of failure.
It did and then some. I remember Miyamoto said: "A delayed game is eventually good, a bad game is bad forever." It's true. It was perfect in almost every way. TP could never duplicate its impact. The first time you lay foot on Hyrule Field, watching the sun set slowly. The first time you ride Epona and jump over the fence. The first time you enter the Temple of Time and see the world transformed beyond recognition.
Everything made sense, from the subtle and superbly written dialogue to the atmosphere and sense to save the world. There was a clear purpose. A well-defined villain. One hero. Majora's Mask has all of that as well, packed in an even grimmer and gloomier world. TP on the other hand seems to miss what made them epic. Things were all over the place, seemingly added for no clear reason other than for the gameplay.
In OoT and MM, bosses had back stories, characters in each region served a purpose, items were practical. In TP, huge bosses show up out of nowhere, characters served as background and many items were silly. I think one of the most telling dungeon to prove my point is Snowpeak Ruins. First you have to snowboard to reach a remote mansion. In it you obtain the one and only ball and chain. In the end you save the wife of a yeti who had been possessed by a giant ice sphere.
It was an awesome dungeon, but it felt a little out of place. It's like they decided beforehand there should be a forest, a fire, an ice, a desert and a wind dungeon and told each team to design one without molding it into the world outside the dungeon.
I hope they've learned their lesson, but looking at Skyward Sword, I am doubtful they have.
Is there really a significant amount of people who both wanted OoT and don't like that they got more of it?
I find your faith in mankind adorable.
exmello on
0
mntorankusuI'm not sure how to use this thing....Registered Userregular
edited January 2011
I really like Twilight Princess for the things it does do well, but I agree with everything Chen said!!!
Twilight Princess only copies Ocarina of Time in superficial ways. Well, as much as a 3D Zelda game can avoid copying Ocarina of Time. Because, no, the fact that you go to a Forest dungeon, then a Fire dungeon, then a Water dungeon is not the reason I liked Ocarina of Time.
In OoT and MM, bosses had back stories, characters in each region served a purpose, items were practical. In TP, huge bosses show up out of nowhere, characters served as background and many items were silly. I think one of the most telling dungeon to prove my point is Snowpeak Ruins. First you have to snowboard to reach a remote mansion. In it you obtain the one and only ball and chain. In the end you save the wife of a yeti who had been possessed by a giant ice sphere.
It was an awesome dungeon, but it felt a little out of place. It's like they decided beforehand there should be a forest, a fire, an ice, a desert and a wind dungeon and told each team to design one without molding it into the world outside the dungeon.
No offence, but I think that's a terrible example. You say bosses had background and back stories, which wasn't always the case- in fact I don't remember any boss in MM or WW having a back story, at least of the top of my head- and then you try to prove your point with a boss that actually has a story and a dungeon that fits amazingly well.
You climb a snow covered mountain after already reaching a high altitude in the Zora's Palace, get to the top, find a Yeti and to reach his home which obviously must be far away from everything (he's a monster and all) you go even further by snowboarding down the slope to reach a remote mansion.
This just strengthened the feeling that you were far away from it all and that the Yeti lives in complete seclusion and loneliness (asides from his wife) and the fact that he is so nice to you and wants to have fun snowboarding just makes it all the more endearing.
Then the mansion itself strays from the traditional molds of a dungeon and fits much better in its setting, it doesn't feel out of place at all. The house is in bad shape and filled with ice that blocks your way, it's clear that some rooms are used by Yeto and Yeta while the others are just abandoned and the only way to restore health outside of fairies is to drink the soup Yeto is making, soup that improves as you find ingredients to make it better so that Yeta can be nursed back to health. All that trouble to make her healthy and then she gets possessed and you have to fight her.
About the ball and chain, it also fits completely with the theme since it's so useful to break ice and ice enemies that are everywhere.
Honestly I think this is one of the best examples of setting up a dungeon (or whatever you want to call it) in a game's world that I can think of.
Not that I think the other dungeons are as out of place as you say, in fact they're all pretty melded into the world, like for example Goron's Mines that aren't just "oh look volcano", they're... well, mines and have a very interesting mechanic (the magnetic boots, "gravity shifting") and a boss that also had a backstory and fit in perfectly.
The Dominion Rod and the Spinner were criminally underused yeah, especially the latter, but asides from that all the items were useful. Well, the slingshot wasn't, that was clearly to introduce the pointer early on.
I think something we can all agree on is that there will probably never be another Zelda game with quite the impact that OOT had on the gaming world.
That thing was a cultural phenomenon; it dropped at the right place, at the right time, and delivered the goods to get that status. It doesn't matter how much better other Zeldas will be, because in the end they can't possibly hope to cut down that legacy. It is nigh impossible.
I think something we can all agree on is that there will probably never be another Zelda game with quite the impact that OOT had on the gaming world.
That thing was a cultural phenomenon; it dropped at the right place, at the right time, and delivered the goods to get that status. It doesn't matter how much better other Zeldas will be, because in the end they can't possibly hope to cut down that legacy. It is nigh impossible.
Though maybe some people would want to consider the pre-requisite areas before you actually enter each temple a dungeon instead of a side-quest.
All the sidequests are typically pretty lame bullshit, even in my favorite entries in the series
Anju and Kafei would like to say, "Fuck you!"
Anju and Kafei? That love story sidequest that was a bunch of "Talk to dude at X time" "Talk to chick at X time". Repeat until they give you an item. I think that qualifies as lame bullshit. I just a walk through for that quest. There was like, a puzzle at the end, and a ton of time restricted hoops to jump through before you got there. I remember doing it when I played it. Was not impressed.
You know what game Majora's Mask actually has a fair bit in common with? Dead Rising. Specifically its use of time. They both involve doing things in the right place at the right time and if you missed it, you start over. Everyone bitched about that in DR, but MM gets praise still solely because its got Zelda in the name. If it were any other franchise people would realize it was a shitty game. I love Zelda games but I am not above calling Nintendo on its mistakes and bad design. Time restrictions suck. Focusing all your development time on sidequests with time restrictions is bad design.
Anju and Kafei? That love story sidequest that was a bunch of "Talk to dude at X time" "Talk to chick at X time". Repeat until they give you an item. I think that qualifies as lame bullshit.
I find this absurdly reductive. We already did that schtick earlier in the thread.
Anju and Kafei? That love story sidequest that was a bunch of "Talk to dude at X time" "Talk to chick at X time". Repeat until they give you an item. I think that qualifies as lame bullshit.
I find this absurdly reductive. We already did that schtick earlier in the thread.
But you have to make everything absurdly reductive, how else would you be able to make good things sound bad!
Majora without a time limit defeats the whole theme and world of Majora's Mask.
'Theme and World' is not a good excuse for bad game design. If you want to create something by designing it theme and world first, go write a book or make a movie. Games have other considerations that should be thought of first.
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Twilight Princess is one of my favourite games ever made, I loved pretty much everything about it and was genuinely sad when it ended. Don't worry, we can be "wrong" together
I'm with you! *fist bump*
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Yeah.
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Pretty sure they won't. The 3D Classics line is separate from the Virtual Console (and questionable as to when any will arrive anyway at this point - it takes more than a simple conversion to do it right). We also haven't seen/heard anybody playing Mario Land or Zelda DX in 3D.
Also, old systems like the NES and GB used a lot of tricks to enhance the graphics, so a number of sprites might be used as objects besides characters, enemies and bullets. They can used to simulate scrolling/parallax effects or enhance certain sections of the background. In other words, sprites popping out would look weird in a lot of places.
It seems like the premise was right but they didn't have the technology to make it work how they wanted to at the time.
This would truely be RPG Zelda.
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Just Wind Waker in HD would be sooooo pretty
Yeah, I agree with all you. I thought it had by a good margin some of the best supporting character work in a Zelda game, only hampered by Nintendo's somewhat stingy production values.
Right, I know that. It's more wishful thinking on my part
I wish they would say more about their 3d classics stuff though. Back on the topic of Zelda, I'd still love to see a 3d version of the first Legend of Zelda where say, the dungeon walls and blocks popped out in sort of a diorama fashion. Or really, I will take any form of Zelda 2 because I love that game
Wind Walker HD would be awesome.
Have you played 3D Dot Game Heroes?
Still need to change the wifi indicator to a triforce and the cell signal to a heartpiece. I'm having no luck figuring out how to do that, which is disappointing since it was so easy to do on my ipod touch.
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I played OOT for the first time in 2002, when I was in college. Still loved it.
I played it for the first time a few years later under the same circumstances. Quit partway through the second dungeon, was kind of bored by it and put off by graphics, frame rate and control.
Though maybe some people would want to consider the pre-requisite areas before you actually enter each temple a dungeon instead of a side-quest.
Anju and Kafei would like to say, "Fuck you!"
Agreed. I'm a huge Zelda fan, and TP was a damn good game.
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The irony is fans wanted a game like TP and got exactly what they asked for.
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When people say this I can't help but think they're talking about two different sets of people.
I mean, half the Zelda fans read this and say "But I didn't want just another game like OoT."
The other half say "Exactly, I wanted more OoT and I got it, and it was great."
Is there really a significant amount of people who both wanted OoT and don't like that they got more of it?
Furthermore, is TP really that much like OoT? I didn't like Ocarina, and though Twilight Princess was far better. Much more interesting, more interactive, not such a small-feeling world.
It did and then some. I remember Miyamoto said: "A delayed game is eventually good, a bad game is bad forever." It's true. It was perfect in almost every way. TP could never duplicate its impact. The first time you lay foot on Hyrule Field, watching the sun set slowly. The first time you ride Epona and jump over the fence. The first time you enter the Temple of Time and see the world transformed beyond recognition.
Everything made sense, from the subtle and superbly written dialogue to the atmosphere and sense to save the world. There was a clear purpose. A well-defined villain. One hero. Majora's Mask has all of that as well, packed in an even grimmer and gloomier world. TP on the other hand seems to miss what made them epic. Things were all over the place, seemingly added for no clear reason other than for the gameplay.
In OoT and MM, bosses had back stories, characters in each region served a purpose, items were practical. In TP, huge bosses show up out of nowhere, characters served as background and many items were silly. I think one of the most telling dungeon to prove my point is Snowpeak Ruins. First you have to snowboard to reach a remote mansion. In it you obtain the one and only ball and chain. In the end you save the wife of a yeti who had been possessed by a giant ice sphere.
It was an awesome dungeon, but it felt a little out of place. It's like they decided beforehand there should be a forest, a fire, an ice, a desert and a wind dungeon and told each team to design one without molding it into the world outside the dungeon.
I hope they've learned their lesson, but looking at Skyward Sword, I am doubtful they have.
I find your faith in mankind adorable.
Twilight Princess only copies Ocarina of Time in superficial ways. Well, as much as a 3D Zelda game can avoid copying Ocarina of Time. Because, no, the fact that you go to a Forest dungeon, then a Fire dungeon, then a Water dungeon is not the reason I liked Ocarina of Time.
It's hauntingly beautiful in places.
No offence, but I think that's a terrible example. You say bosses had background and back stories, which wasn't always the case- in fact I don't remember any boss in MM or WW having a back story, at least of the top of my head- and then you try to prove your point with a boss that actually has a story and a dungeon that fits amazingly well.
You climb a snow covered mountain after already reaching a high altitude in the Zora's Palace, get to the top, find a Yeti and to reach his home which obviously must be far away from everything (he's a monster and all) you go even further by snowboarding down the slope to reach a remote mansion.
This just strengthened the feeling that you were far away from it all and that the Yeti lives in complete seclusion and loneliness (asides from his wife) and the fact that he is so nice to you and wants to have fun snowboarding just makes it all the more endearing.
Then the mansion itself strays from the traditional molds of a dungeon and fits much better in its setting, it doesn't feel out of place at all. The house is in bad shape and filled with ice that blocks your way, it's clear that some rooms are used by Yeto and Yeta while the others are just abandoned and the only way to restore health outside of fairies is to drink the soup Yeto is making, soup that improves as you find ingredients to make it better so that Yeta can be nursed back to health. All that trouble to make her healthy and then she gets possessed and you have to fight her.
About the ball and chain, it also fits completely with the theme since it's so useful to break ice and ice enemies that are everywhere.
Honestly I think this is one of the best examples of setting up a dungeon (or whatever you want to call it) in a game's world that I can think of.
Not that I think the other dungeons are as out of place as you say, in fact they're all pretty melded into the world, like for example Goron's Mines that aren't just "oh look volcano", they're... well, mines and have a very interesting mechanic (the magnetic boots, "gravity shifting") and a boss that also had a backstory and fit in perfectly.
The Dominion Rod and the Spinner were criminally underused yeah, especially the latter, but asides from that all the items were useful. Well, the slingshot wasn't, that was clearly to introduce the pointer early on.
Pokémon HGSS: 1205 1613 4041
That thing was a cultural phenomenon; it dropped at the right place, at the right time, and delivered the goods to get that status. It doesn't matter how much better other Zeldas will be, because in the end they can't possibly hope to cut down that legacy. It is nigh impossible.
Also i'm 99% sure the Master Quest version of the dungeons will be in the game in some form.
Pretty much this. The original Legend of Zelda theme would not fit Hyrule Field at all.
I wake up to this tune every morning.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fw_sjlk1Gbw
No better alarm than that of dawn in Hyrule Field.
Twitter 3DS: 0860 - 3257 - 2516
I didn't play it until late 2001
It still had a huge impact on me, even then
Anju and Kafei? That love story sidequest that was a bunch of "Talk to dude at X time" "Talk to chick at X time". Repeat until they give you an item. I think that qualifies as lame bullshit. I just a walk through for that quest. There was like, a puzzle at the end, and a ton of time restricted hoops to jump through before you got there. I remember doing it when I played it. Was not impressed.
You know what game Majora's Mask actually has a fair bit in common with? Dead Rising. Specifically its use of time. They both involve doing things in the right place at the right time and if you missed it, you start over. Everyone bitched about that in DR, but MM gets praise still solely because its got Zelda in the name. If it were any other franchise people would realize it was a shitty game. I love Zelda games but I am not above calling Nintendo on its mistakes and bad design. Time restrictions suck. Focusing all your development time on sidequests with time restrictions is bad design.
I find this absurdly reductive. We already did that schtick earlier in the thread.
Twitter 3DS: 0860 - 3257 - 2516
Replaying DR on the other hand can get tedious if you are trying to get specific results. Especially with the annoying control issues that pop up.
But you have to make everything absurdly reductive, how else would you be able to make good things sound bad!
'Theme and World' is not a good excuse for bad game design. If you want to create something by designing it theme and world first, go write a book or make a movie. Games have other considerations that should be thought of first.