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So... I have a roommate of the opposite gender. We've wandered across each others dating profiles lately, on one that suggests match %'s and we rated fairly high. I also discovered his profile on a kink-interest type site (based on his computers name, I swear I'm not secretly stalking him) and we sound compatible in bed (at least, similar interests)
I'm single. he's single. We don't interact much at the moment, he spends most of his time in his living room, I spend most of mine in my area, but there's certainly no animosity there, we're both just quiet people for the most part. My hormones have been going *nuts* lately and I have no qualms with casual sex, so long as it's with someone I trust.
I guess I'm just wondering... is it stupid to approach your roommate to bed one another? Will it definitely ruin our renter/rentee relationship? (I own the house, he rents space in it, shared kitchen/bath)
ceresWhen the last moon is cast over the last star of morningAnd the future has past without even a last desperate warningRegistered User, ModeratorMod Emeritus
edited January 2011
I happen to know someone who just recently finished up something that started this way... and she ended up falling for the guy, and he didn't fall for her, and now she's having a terrible time getting over him because they became best friends over the course of it, and they still live together.
YMMV, but it can get pretty tough if you aren't both really prepared for that sort of thing.
ceres on
And it seems like all is dying, and would leave the world to mourn
0
mrt144King of the NumbernamesRegistered Userregular
edited January 2011
I can buy starting a relationship and it failing in this kinda arrangement (even though I have huge doubts about longevity) but I don't buy casual sex with roommates being a good idea period.
If this just stayed casual sex it would work, but the odds are that it just won't. I'm not being sexist here, but women are more prone to developing feelings than men when it comes to sex. However, that isn't to say that he won't develop feelings first.
Say you have causal sex and you develop a little a crush. What happens if he brings someone home? You get to listen to the guy you like sleep with someone else. The same is true if the feelings are reversed.
The bottom line is, I think it's very hard to keep things FWB. Not impossible, just very difficult. One-night-stands are one thing, but to live with the person with whom you're sleeping is a recipe for eventual hurt feelings, heartbreak, bad living situation, etc.
So, uh, what's that kink site? I mean, if he's got a profile, he must be into it!
[Edit] and I'll second the above post. Sex is designed to make babies, keep it on 3rd base unless you could see yourself having a child with him at this point in your life.
I married my roommate, though we did not get there by the "FWB" route. A few things that we agreed on while we started dating and were roommates:
1. We were already on a month to month lease, meaning if things didn't work out, we'd be stuck together for a maximum of 30 days, and either of us was free to pull the plug at any time.
2. I'm significantly physically larger than her (~33%). Whenever we got physical, it was always in my room, and never in hers. I never went into her room without her permission. While this was formal to the point of boring, it was important to me to show her that she was safe in the house and that, even if things didn't work out, she would be able to feel safe living there until we moved.
edit: To clarify, we didn't do this forever, but for a long time while we were feeling out the relationship.
I guess what I'm saying here is that yes, it's a bad idea, but if you're going to do it anyway, start by making an exit plan.
Dropping Loads on
Sceptre: Penny Arcade, where you get starcraft AND marriage advice.
3clipse: The key to any successful marriage is a good mid-game transition.
But some people can afford to lose that via moving out, etc.
This more or less. I've seen it work out just fine, I've seen it fail but with no animosity, and I've seen people end it with one or the other having to move.
Quid on
0
TavIrish Minister for DefenceRegistered Userregular
You know what, I'm going to go against the grain and encourage you to go with it assuming the following:
1. You can afford to move or get a new roommate if necessary.
2. You feel confident in your ability to not get attached.
3. The two of you can talk openly about sex without embarrassment or awkwardness.
As someone who was dumb enough to try it before - I'm going to speak from experience and say don't.
However, horniness is a bitch. If you two do the do, make sure you're both absolutely clear on what you want and exactly where you both stand with it. Keep in mind though, even in the best case scenario (Two mature adults just fucking) You may want to fuck everyday, he may not - so on so forth. I'd say it simply isn't worth the sex to bang a roomie unless ya'll are romantically invested.
Go out on the prowl and pick up a dude. I can assure you there's someone somewhere who wants to fuck that does not live with you. Save yourself any potential drama.
But some people can afford to lose that via moving out, etc.
This more or less. I've seen it work out just fine, I've seen it fail but with no animosity, and I've seen people end it with one or the other having to move.
Agreeing with these, with the additional caveat that you both agree that if when it's over, it's over, and stays in the past. I have friends who are still friends with ex-fuckbuddies, and you never, ever, ever voluntarily reveal that info to a current partner. As far as she knows, you just shared a flat back in '03. Also not making it public knowledge to your friends can prevent future accidental revelations.
I think it would be reasonable to sit down and have a conversation with your roommate and see how it feels. If you can't easily talk about things you probably shouldn't proceed. Topics of the conversation should include the type of sex that is on the table, the possibility of casual sex with other people, the possibility of one of you finding a relationship or the possibility of one of you starting to get feelings for the other.
I did FWB with a roommate once and it worked out just fine but it was a little bit of a different situation. We had been friends for two years at that point and were both 100% clear that we were not interested in a relationship with each other at all, we were just horny. We agreed not to have other casual sex while we were FWB's (disease concerns) and we were both cool with ending things if either person found someone they were actually interested in.
And everybody in our circle of friends was aware of what was going on including my now husband. So I don't think it is the end of the world if other people know about it either.
Kistra on
Animal Crossing: City Folk Lissa in Filmore 3179-9580-0076
I think your mention of "kink" is a positive, actually, because it implies that you may both be familiar with sex beyond just "two people fall in love and then have sex" type of situation. As such, you may both be able to discuss an agreeable situation before actually having sex while still remaining roommates.
In other words, you would need to set up ground rules ("no kissing except during sex," "we stop if we start having sex with anyone else," "we are not dating and will not go on dates," "we will not be angry if the other is not interested in sex, or we will have a schedule or a sign or simply say 'hey i'm up for sex tonight but otherwise will be watching TV',") and also talk about it as it progresses ("This still working for you? Still fun? Any changes?").
I think it's fairly normal to assume that if you simply have sex with someone you get along with, it will tend to deepen feelings of affection. I mean, it makes sense -- you like someone, you do something with them that feels good, you then like them more. So what you need to do is essentially treat it similarly to a contract. Not quite as boring, but you would both need to be clear at the outset.
Alternatively, you can simply ask if he'd want to have sex with you one night and see how it goes. But I think talking about it and setting up ground rules (and exit rules) would be the best bet so neither of you gets hurt.
One of my friends more or less ruined his entire life doing just that. The dude is genuinely smarter than I am, a better student and had multiple schools offer him a full ride. His freshmen year he started hooking up with his roommate as a fuck buddy (against mountains of advice to stay away,) fast forward four years, he has three children with this woman (despite using contraception) and dropped out of school to work three jobs to support his kids and his babies' momma.
I know the story isn't exactly relevant to your situation but whenever I need to hammer home the point that "The road to hell is paved in gold." I tell that story.
After high school, two of my friends moved into an apartment with two girls. Suffice to say, casual sex ensued and the atmosphere became complicated. They only stayed in the apartment for about 5 months.
Also, as somebody who was in a relationship with a co-worker, my place of employment has since become very awkward and uncomfortable whenever she's around.
Don't do it. Find a good friend, someone you can trust, and take them to bed if you must.
Slider on
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Deebaseron my way to work in a suit and a tieAhhhh...come on fucking guyRegistered Userregular
edited January 2011
This isn't the worst idea ever, but it's in the top 100.
If you need to bone someone, find someone that you are not presently living with.
So... I have a roommate of the opposite gender. We've wandered across each others dating profiles lately, on one that suggests match %'s and we rated fairly high. I also discovered his profile on a kink-interest type site (based on his computers name, I swear I'm not secretly stalking him) and we sound compatible in bed (at least, similar interests)
I'm single. he's single. We don't interact much at the moment, he spends most of his time in his living room, I spend most of mine in my area, but there's certainly no animosity there, we're both just quiet people for the most part. My hormones have been going *nuts* lately and I have no qualms with casual sex, so long as it's with someone I trust.
I guess I'm just wondering... is it stupid to approach your roommate to bed one another? Will it definitely ruin our renter/rentee relationship? (I own the house, he rents space in it, shared kitchen/bath)
This part of the posts alarms me a bit. You say you are fine with casual sex, but I have a gut feeling that you might be trying to spark a relationship with this guy. Why does it matter if your match rating is high? What does that have to do with casual sex? Maybe this is me reading too much into what you wrote, or maybe not. I'm gonna go with "don't fuck your roommate, fuck say.. someone that doesn't live with you".
I have a good friend who was living with a girl for two years and started dating her a couple of months before graduation. They went there separate ways apartment-wise and everything has been kosher since.
Looking at your proposal positively you know that you can live with this person already so you're compatible in that sense. If it goes sour it's gonna go really sour though. Hopefully you don't have a long lease signed.
You know what, I'm going to go against the grain and encourage you to go with it assuming the following:
1. You can afford to move or get a new roommate if necessary.
2. You feel confident in your ability to not get attached.
3. The two of you can talk openly about sex without embarrassment or awkwardness.
exactly
there's nothing inherently wrong with this idea
it's just that most people can't deal with the fallout
but if you're both mature enough to communicate about it like reasonable adults and it turns out he's interested, then you just have to be aware that down the road things my go sour and you'll want/need to move
just be honest with yourself and him about what you want and what you can deal with and what could result from this
It's a high-risk/moderately-high-reward kind of situation.
Since you're roommates, anything shitty that happens is going to be magnified because you're living together; on the flip side, it would make for a really convenient lay.
Like other people are saying, there's really nothing wrong with it, but you need to be clear in your communication, set ground rules, and be aware of that risk of things falling apart.
I set ground rules, and it still fell apart. Spectacularly. I vote for no, unless you really, really think there is no chance, and even then, how do you know how you'll feel a month from now? How will she feel? And when one of you starts feeling something, could you stop it then? Will you want to? And then ask yourself this question again, slower, a little louder, could you end it the second it shows signs of becoming more than what it is? If yes, congratz, either a stronger person than I was, or you're lying to yourself. And the same goes for her. And if/when feelings do develop, you have to realize you arnt exclusive. She or you could be with someone else, and seeing that is going to be hard for one/or the other. So. Not worth it.
do you people, like, read the first post, or what?
anyway
the one thing that intrigues me is the fact that you both came across each other's dating profiles. like, how did that go down? from the rest of the post it sounds like you two pretty much avoid each other, so all I can picture is one of you appearing in the doorway, laptop slung over one arm, going, 'hey, so, it turns out we have a high compatibility on roommatefuckers.com. also can you help me with something in the kitchen?'
anyway, you do have some leverage over him because you own the house. that could make things a bit sketchy.
surely if you're just horny, there should be little to no problem finding someone to get your rocks off with?
bwanie on
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ceresWhen the last moon is cast over the last star of morningAnd the future has past without even a last desperate warningRegistered User, ModeratorMod Emeritus
Well, this is one we can reason out. In the OP she says that the roommate is of the opposite gender, and then proceeds to refer to said roommate as "he". So I'd say she is probably a girl.
ceres on
And it seems like all is dying, and would leave the world to mourn
Considering you own a house, I'd imagine you're both old enough to handle something like this. I wouldn't worry about it. Worst case scenario you find a new tenant, which isn't the worst thing in the world.
Beck on
Lucas's Franklin Badge reflected the lightning back!
I don't know if this has been brought up, but what if you get rejected? Would you feel weird at all?
It doesn't really seem as if he's ever shown any interest in you sexually, at least not from your OP. I mean, there's the whole "who turns down free sex?" guy thing, but if he says no, things could get even more akward than if he said yes.
If you're going to do it then you better put down some solid ground rules.
BEFORE having sex you need to agree on how often and where it will happen (despite how much of a turn off it might be to talk it through beforehand rather than "jumping him"); probably designate a sign of some sort (leaving the door open with underwear hanging on the door knob or something maybe) to minimize any accidents; whether or not you're going to be exclusive and also make sure the two of you are protected from any mishaps - especially if you're not staying exclusive.
The last point is very important and befor starting you should get yourself checked for STDs (and on an agreed regular basis if you're not exclusive) and always use some form of protection to prevent any pregnancies. Be sure to talk through the subject of abortion with him as well to find out whether he, you or both are okay/not okay with it and take it from there.
Good luck!
Shanadeus on
0
acidlacedpenguinInstitutionalizedSafe in jail.Registered Userregular
Given the nature of this thread I nominate to change that to "Don't masturbate where you masticate."
Either way, I'm also going to say do it. Just don't make a big deal about it, it's just sex. People ITT make it out to be like marriage. Just use protection and you can have a lot of fun with it.
Considering you own a house, I'd imagine you're both old enough to handle something like this. I wouldn't worry about it. Worst case scenario you find a new tenant, which isn't the worst thing in the world.
No, there are far worse cases like having a huge falling out, she tries to evict him and he fights the eviction and wins because they were having sex and that probably isn't a valid reason for terminating a lease.
This whole thing is a bad idea. Not because it can never, ever work but because these arrangements often fall to pieces even amongst people who consider themselves mature and put together. That can create enough drama on its own. However when you are living together that drama is magnified greatly. It is a risk/reward calculation where the rewards aren't that high and the risks are generally huge. That is why it is to be avoided.
I'm going with the majority here. If you're looking to get laid, you can probably do so without much effort. If you're looking for a longer-term fuck buddy, you can make that happen with someone who doesn't share your living space. A woman looking for casual sex doesn't have to work all that hard.
Basically, I'm not seeing any real reason you need to bang this guy in particular. Unless you are considering more than just a casual relationship with him.
Full disclosure, I was sleeping with one of my housemates senior year of college. But that was an arrangement with an expiration date since I was going off to law school and she was going overseas. It worked out fine, but there was never really any chance of it being anything more than each of us having someone to have sex with if we struck out at the bars.
Modern Man on
Aetian Jupiter - 41 Gunslinger - The Old Republic
Rigorous Scholarship
I think it is hypocritical that there is another thread where everyone is advising a guy to experiment with the same sex but everyone here is advising her against a FWB situation. Someone even suggested she should not have vaginal sex?!
Go. Have fun. You are an adult. He is an adult. Get some wine and take out and ask him to watch a movie with you on the couch. See where it goes. No risk, no reward.
I think it is hypocritical that there is another thread where everyone is advising a guy to experiment with the same sex but everyone here is advising her against a FWB situation. Someone even suggested she should not have vaginal sex?!
Go. Have fun. You are an adult. He is an adult. Get some wine and take out and ask him to watch a movie with you on the couch. See where it goes. No risk, no reward.
I don't think anyone here is opposed to a FBW arrangement or casual sex in general.
It's just that such an arrangement with a roommate has potential to lead to drama if things don't work out, or if one of the parties can't just keep it casual.
Modern Man on
Aetian Jupiter - 41 Gunslinger - The Old Republic
Rigorous Scholarship
At the risk of this turning into a D&D topic, the only reason people are advising against this is because the OP is rooming with the guy. It's a different situation than the other thread.
Personally, I think it would be a mistake to get into a casual sex relationship with a roommate. If either of you starts to have feelings for the other, when one of you brings home a date and proceeds to have loud, noisy sex with them in the other room, someone is going to get their feelings hurt. That's when things start to go south.
Spawnbroker on
Steam: Spawnbroker
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Mojo_JojoWe are only now beginning to understand the full power and ramifications of sexual intercourseRegistered Userregular
I think it is hypocritical that there is another thread where everyone is advising a guy to experiment with the same sex but everyone here is advising her against a FWB situation. Someone even suggested she should not have vaginal sex?!
It's not. At all. The two situations are not analogous. Here, we're talking about gambling on creating an awkward situation in the home, moreso because one of the people involved is the landlord of the other, making it a bit like trying to have casual sex with your boss. In the other thread, somebody wants to know if there is anything wrong with having and pursuing homosexual feelings, which there obviously isn't in general terms (although if he is lusting after his landlord or boss, then he should also be aware that he's taking a major risk).
Mojo_Jojo on
Homogeneous distribution of your varieties of amuse-gueule
Posts
YMMV, but it can get pretty tough if you aren't both really prepared for that sort of thing.
But from the tone of your post you may end up doing it anyway. At the very least, do not engage in any vaginal sex, stick to more casual favors.
Say you have causal sex and you develop a little a crush. What happens if he brings someone home? You get to listen to the guy you like sleep with someone else. The same is true if the feelings are reversed.
The bottom line is, I think it's very hard to keep things FWB. Not impossible, just very difficult. One-night-stands are one thing, but to live with the person with whom you're sleeping is a recipe for eventual hurt feelings, heartbreak, bad living situation, etc.
So, uh, what's that kink site? I mean, if he's got a profile, he must be into it!
[Edit] and I'll second the above post. Sex is designed to make babies, keep it on 3rd base unless you could see yourself having a child with him at this point in your life.
1. We were already on a month to month lease, meaning if things didn't work out, we'd be stuck together for a maximum of 30 days, and either of us was free to pull the plug at any time.
2. I'm significantly physically larger than her (~33%). Whenever we got physical, it was always in my room, and never in hers. I never went into her room without her permission. While this was formal to the point of boring, it was important to me to show her that she was safe in the house and that, even if things didn't work out, she would be able to feel safe living there until we moved.
edit: To clarify, we didn't do this forever, but for a long time while we were feeling out the relationship.
I guess what I'm saying here is that yes, it's a bad idea, but if you're going to do it anyway, start by making an exit plan.
3clipse: The key to any successful marriage is a good mid-game transition.
Don't gamble what you can't afford to lose!
Namely a roommate and/or a peaceful home life.
But some people can afford to lose that via moving out, etc.
we also talk about other random shit and clown upon each other
This more or less. I've seen it work out just fine, I've seen it fail but with no animosity, and I've seen people end it with one or the other having to move.
1. You can afford to move or get a new roommate if necessary.
2. You feel confident in your ability to not get attached.
3. The two of you can talk openly about sex without embarrassment or awkwardness.
Secret Satan
However, horniness is a bitch. If you two do the do, make sure you're both absolutely clear on what you want and exactly where you both stand with it. Keep in mind though, even in the best case scenario (Two mature adults just fucking) You may want to fuck everyday, he may not - so on so forth. I'd say it simply isn't worth the sex to bang a roomie unless ya'll are romantically invested.
Go out on the prowl and pick up a dude. I can assure you there's someone somewhere who wants to fuck that does not live with you. Save yourself any potential drama.
Agreeing with these, with the additional caveat that you both agree that if when it's over, it's over, and stays in the past. I have friends who are still friends with ex-fuckbuddies, and you never, ever, ever voluntarily reveal that info to a current partner. As far as she knows, you just shared a flat back in '03. Also not making it public knowledge to your friends can prevent future accidental revelations.
I did FWB with a roommate once and it worked out just fine but it was a little bit of a different situation. We had been friends for two years at that point and were both 100% clear that we were not interested in a relationship with each other at all, we were just horny. We agreed not to have other casual sex while we were FWB's (disease concerns) and we were both cool with ending things if either person found someone they were actually interested in.
And everybody in our circle of friends was aware of what was going on including my now husband. So I don't think it is the end of the world if other people know about it either.
In other words, you would need to set up ground rules ("no kissing except during sex," "we stop if we start having sex with anyone else," "we are not dating and will not go on dates," "we will not be angry if the other is not interested in sex, or we will have a schedule or a sign or simply say 'hey i'm up for sex tonight but otherwise will be watching TV',") and also talk about it as it progresses ("This still working for you? Still fun? Any changes?").
I think it's fairly normal to assume that if you simply have sex with someone you get along with, it will tend to deepen feelings of affection. I mean, it makes sense -- you like someone, you do something with them that feels good, you then like them more. So what you need to do is essentially treat it similarly to a contract. Not quite as boring, but you would both need to be clear at the outset.
Alternatively, you can simply ask if he'd want to have sex with you one night and see how it goes. But I think talking about it and setting up ground rules (and exit rules) would be the best bet so neither of you gets hurt.
I know the story isn't exactly relevant to your situation but whenever I need to hammer home the point that "The road to hell is paved in gold." I tell that story.
Also, as somebody who was in a relationship with a co-worker, my place of employment has since become very awkward and uncomfortable whenever she's around.
Don't do it. Find a good friend, someone you can trust, and take them to bed if you must.
If you need to bone someone, find someone that you are not presently living with.
This part of the posts alarms me a bit. You say you are fine with casual sex, but I have a gut feeling that you might be trying to spark a relationship with this guy. Why does it matter if your match rating is high? What does that have to do with casual sex? Maybe this is me reading too much into what you wrote, or maybe not. I'm gonna go with "don't fuck your roommate, fuck say.. someone that doesn't live with you".
This could've been closed after this post
Looking at your proposal positively you know that you can live with this person already so you're compatible in that sense. If it goes sour it's gonna go really sour though. Hopefully you don't have a long lease signed.
exactly
there's nothing inherently wrong with this idea
it's just that most people can't deal with the fallout
but if you're both mature enough to communicate about it like reasonable adults and it turns out he's interested, then you just have to be aware that down the road things my go sour and you'll want/need to move
just be honest with yourself and him about what you want and what you can deal with and what could result from this
They cast a shadow like a sundial in the morning light. It was half past 10.
Since you're roommates, anything shitty that happens is going to be magnified because you're living together; on the flip side, it would make for a really convenient lay.
Like other people are saying, there's really nothing wrong with it, but you need to be clear in your communication, set ground rules, and be aware of that risk of things falling apart.
anyway
the one thing that intrigues me is the fact that you both came across each other's dating profiles. like, how did that go down? from the rest of the post it sounds like you two pretty much avoid each other, so all I can picture is one of you appearing in the doorway, laptop slung over one arm, going, 'hey, so, it turns out we have a high compatibility on roommatefuckers.com. also can you help me with something in the kitchen?'
anyway, you do have some leverage over him because you own the house. that could make things a bit sketchy.
surely if you're just horny, there should be little to no problem finding someone to get your rocks off with?
Well, this is one we can reason out. In the OP she says that the roommate is of the opposite gender, and then proceeds to refer to said roommate as "he". So I'd say she is probably a girl.
It doesn't really seem as if he's ever shown any interest in you sexually, at least not from your OP. I mean, there's the whole "who turns down free sex?" guy thing, but if he says no, things could get even more akward than if he said yes.
BEFORE having sex you need to agree on how often and where it will happen (despite how much of a turn off it might be to talk it through beforehand rather than "jumping him"); probably designate a sign of some sort (leaving the door open with underwear hanging on the door knob or something maybe) to minimize any accidents; whether or not you're going to be exclusive and also make sure the two of you are protected from any mishaps - especially if you're not staying exclusive.
The last point is very important and befor starting you should get yourself checked for STDs (and on an agreed regular basis if you're not exclusive) and always use some form of protection to prevent any pregnancies. Be sure to talk through the subject of abortion with him as well to find out whether he, you or both are okay/not okay with it and take it from there.
Good luck!
Given the nature of this thread I nominate to change that to "Don't masturbate where you masticate."
Either way, I'm also going to say do it. Just don't make a big deal about it, it's just sex. People ITT make it out to be like marriage. Just use protection and you can have a lot of fun with it.
No, there are far worse cases like having a huge falling out, she tries to evict him and he fights the eviction and wins because they were having sex and that probably isn't a valid reason for terminating a lease.
This whole thing is a bad idea. Not because it can never, ever work but because these arrangements often fall to pieces even amongst people who consider themselves mature and put together. That can create enough drama on its own. However when you are living together that drama is magnified greatly. It is a risk/reward calculation where the rewards aren't that high and the risks are generally huge. That is why it is to be avoided.
Basically, I'm not seeing any real reason you need to bang this guy in particular. Unless you are considering more than just a casual relationship with him.
Full disclosure, I was sleeping with one of my housemates senior year of college. But that was an arrangement with an expiration date since I was going off to law school and she was going overseas. It worked out fine, but there was never really any chance of it being anything more than each of us having someone to have sex with if we struck out at the bars.
Rigorous Scholarship
Go. Have fun. You are an adult. He is an adult. Get some wine and take out and ask him to watch a movie with you on the couch. See where it goes. No risk, no reward.
It's just that such an arrangement with a roommate has potential to lead to drama if things don't work out, or if one of the parties can't just keep it casual.
Rigorous Scholarship
Personally, I think it would be a mistake to get into a casual sex relationship with a roommate. If either of you starts to have feelings for the other, when one of you brings home a date and proceeds to have loud, noisy sex with them in the other room, someone is going to get their feelings hurt. That's when things start to go south.
It's not. At all. The two situations are not analogous. Here, we're talking about gambling on creating an awkward situation in the home, moreso because one of the people involved is the landlord of the other, making it a bit like trying to have casual sex with your boss. In the other thread, somebody wants to know if there is anything wrong with having and pursuing homosexual feelings, which there obviously isn't in general terms (although if he is lusting after his landlord or boss, then he should also be aware that he's taking a major risk).
Make rules though.
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