I swear to god, sentries are the textbook response to speedling pressure on your expo.
Speedlings are dogshit if you have 2-3 sentries and know how to use them.
I mean, it kind of depends on how much he sacrificed his economy for those lings. If he is on one base, massing lings, then 2-3 sentries would need some fucking magical forcefields to win the day.
Then again, if you see he isn't expanding, you don't open 3 gate expand :P
Also, I've seen idra build extra macro hatches. The general consensus behind them is that you can fully support them if you don't plan on expanding. If you are going for some sort of 2 base roach aggression build (i've seen some where the zerg cuts drones at 24), it is probably worth looking in to.
Don't worry about macro-hatches. Everyone uses them-- even pros. If you're going muta/ling/bling you'll always have tons of minerals cause lings are cheap and you'll be gas limited. It's difficult to spend as many minerals as you're taking in once you're done making drones and on like 2+ bases.
How many hatches do you need to equalize the production of a hatch with injections?
A bare hatch produces larva at a rate of 1/15 larva/game second.
A queen-hatch pair with perfect injections produces larva at a rate of 4/44 = 1/11 (bound by queen energy regeneration time rather than inject time) larva/game second.
So with reasonable inject timings, a queen is roughly equal to a hatch.
Maybe we Zerg need to make more hatcheries per base, keep a Queen on them anyways, but even if you lose a Queen (Or an expansion!) you won't be set behind so strongly. We need to learn how to play this game.
I've gone back and forth on the extra hatches for a long time. It always FEELS much better to have an extra hatch or two (or four), but that's because around mid-late game I'm forgetting sooo many injects just to stay alive from other shit going on. Gas/larva are always the issues, never minerals. Extra hatches I'm swimming in larva, and pumping out 50 lings at once right when I need it feels so so so so good.
I'll win a bunch of games, and then stop doing it because I tell myself "Extra hatches are a noob crutch, if you got rid of that you wouldn't be bouncing back and forth between plat and gold."
I just don't know anymore.
One specific example: in TvZ, a macro hatch is understood to be a given with ling/bling/muta play around the time your lair finishes unless you are able to take a quick 3rd. It is difficult to keep your money done while producing just lings and drones off of two saturated bases.
Kambing on
@TwitchTV, @Youtube: master-level zerg ladder/customs, commentary, and random miscellany.
I swear to god, sentries are the textbook response to speedling pressure on your expo.
Speedlings are dogshit if you have 2-3 sentries and know how to use them.
I mean, it kind of depends on how much he sacrificed his economy for those lings. If he is on one base, massing lings, then 2-3 sentries would need some fucking magical forcefields to win the day.
Then again, if you see he isn't expanding, you don't open 3 gate expand :P
Yeah, I'm speaking under the assumption that he's not using the vaunted speedling all-in, heh.
But generally sentries drive off harassing lings or trap/murder lings that commit to a fight.
kedinik on
I made a game! Hotline Maui. Requires mouse and keyboard.
I swear to god, sentries are the textbook response to speedling pressure on your expo.
Speedlings are dogshit if you have 2-3 sentries and know how to use them.
this is the point where i stop discussing this with you, 3 sentries cannot trap 20 speedlings surrounding a nexus and it would be a complete waste to try
I swear to god, sentries are the textbook response to speedling pressure on your expo.
Speedlings are dogshit if you have 2-3 sentries and know how to use them.
I mean, it kind of depends on how much he sacrificed his economy for those lings. If he is on one base, massing lings, then 2-3 sentries would need some fucking magical forcefields to win the day.
Then again, if you see he isn't expanding, you don't open 3 gate expand :P
Yeah, I'm speaking under the assumption that he's not using the vaunted speedling all-in, heh.
But generally sentries drive off harassing lings or trap/murder lings that commit to a fight.
I've definitely been surprised before though, if he pops down his second hatch at his natural, but then makes an exceptionally large batch of lings, it can put some good pressure on me. If I'm not careful, he can snipe some sentries which is a huge win for the zerg. It would be very rare that the pressure is enough to force a cancel though.
I swear to god, sentries are the textbook response to speedling pressure on your expo.
Speedlings are dogshit if you have 2-3 sentries and know how to use them.
this is the point where i stop discussing this with you, 3 sentries cannot trap 20 speedlings surrounding a nexus and it would be a complete waste to try
Yes but 6-7 sentries could handle them.
See, I can also arbitrarily throw out numbers that invalidate your attempt at honest discourse.
Look man, sentries are the reason zerg can't really apply pressure until either hydras or burrow roaches and I promise they're the answer to your early game ling pressure.
kedinik on
I made a game! Hotline Maui. Requires mouse and keyboard.
Especially since your 20 speedlings are the equivalent of 10 drones. If I 3 gate expand, and you try to force a cancel with that many speedlings, I will use and abuse you. Especially afterwards, when your lings are dead and I now have a significant econ advantage. I can literally paralyze you by feinting pressure for the rest of the game.
I swear to god, sentries are the textbook response to speedling pressure on your expo.
Speedlings are dogshit if you have 2-3 sentries and know how to use them.
I mean, it kind of depends on how much he sacrificed his economy for those lings. If he is on one base, massing lings, then 2-3 sentries would need some fucking magical forcefields to win the day.
Then again, if you see he isn't expanding, you don't open 3 gate expand :P
Yeah, I'm speaking under the assumption that he's not using the vaunted speedling all-in, heh.
But generally sentries drive off harassing lings or trap/murder lings that commit to a fight.
I've definitely been surprised before though, if he pops down his second hatch at his natural, but then makes an exceptionally large batch of lings, it can put some good pressure on me. If I'm not careful, he can snipe some sentries which is a huge win for the zerg. It would be very rare that the pressure is enough to force a cancel though.
Granted, it can be a tricky situation when that happens in pretty much any match up, but it's usually a zerg mistake.
kedinik on
I made a game! Hotline Maui. Requires mouse and keyboard.
I can deal with early game ling pressure and i can deal with zergs around my station, im saying that with a typical 3 gate expand that a zerg can use 2 rounds on speedlings and force the protoss to make units AND cancel and expansion if he is not ready, good ling micro means that with those lings he need not make more to serve his purpose afterwards. I have a good 3 gate expand build, i do know what im talking about here, you cant blindly attack 20 speedlings at your natural with a 3 gate expand if he has committed to decent early speedling pressure, the timings do not work out.
Man, I always get destroyed by Protoss, how are they beating you?
I am tired of losing to Protoss.
roaches + speedlings with a dash of hydras for flavor. I find that an aggressive zerg player is incredibly hard to deal with, and roaches especially make ZvP so difficult.
If a zerg player has shown that they are going roach heavy, this means I need to pump immortals, right? But immortals don't build all too quickly, are costly, and having more than one robo early on is very difficult to support. What I find happening is that heavy roach pressure will force me to go heavy immortals in lieu of faster colossi. Immortals handle roaches perfectly fine, but speedlings bust the shit out of both stalkers and immortals. It's incredibly tricky finding the right balance of zealots to build because more zealots = less stalkers/immortals which means roaches run you over. I find that I'll often overcompensate too with immortals and then get taken out by the transition to hydras which require colossi or HTs to effectively deal with.
Force fields can work wonders in defending, but that's why you lean more towards constant pressure rather than all ins. Expand to a third while you have the opponent occupied, and just outmacro the sucker. Speedling/muta harass can prevent a timely 3rd expansion from the toss player while you macro up. Liberal use of spine crawlers to defend can also be really intimidating.
Gah, I wish toss static defense was better. Well scratch that. I'd be happy if canons were just a bit cheaper.
Am I doing something wrong? (which is very very possible)
Pure roaches get beaten by pure stalkers, in my experience. Specially vs blink stalkers.
Lings can't help unless you COMPLETELY overwhelm (full surround and no sentries) due to stalker control.
I find I have to get to Hydras as fast as possible to hold off mass stalkers.
Any PAers in the midwest thinking of going to MLG Columbus this year? The dates were June 3rd through the 5th.
Oh I missed the announcement.
*checks the website*
Wow, a $50K national championship for SC2. It looks like they basically took last year's prize money and multiplied it by 4. They should still be able to pull the best players with that.
Spawn Larva is probably the most obvious "don't forget this or else" mechanic in the game, but every race has that sort of thing. Protoss have the same problem with using their warpgate cooldown, and Terran and Protoss both have to work not to queue up units while Zerg never have to even think about that, just spam a button on those eggs.
How many hatches do you need to equalize the production of a hatch with injections?
A bare hatch produces larva at a rate of 1/15 larva/game second.
A queen-hatch pair with perfect injections produces larva at a rate of 4/44 = 1/11 (bound by queen energy regeneration time rather than inject time) larva/game second.
So with reasonable inject timings, a queen is roughly equal to a hatch.
Maybe we Zerg need to make more hatcheries per base, keep a Queen on them anyways, but even if you lose a Queen (Or an expansion!) you won't be set behind so strongly. We need to learn how to play this game.
Any PAers in the midwest thinking of going to MLG Columbus this year? The dates were June 3rd through the 5th.
I'm in Omaha and have been eagerly awaiting the MLG schedule. Where is the calendar for MLG? Would anyone be so kinda as to post the Schedule since I'll likely not be able to get to it from here at work.
45 seconds is a lifetime.
Zerg are currently underutalizing the overseer contaminate spell vs P and T... wait till we get the hang of it and you will feel the same missed-inject trauma.
I am, oddly, always happy when a Zerg opponent contaminates my base. But it only lasts for a moment, because the thought process is:
45 seconds is a lifetime.
Zerg are currently underutalizing the overseer contaminate spell vs P and T... wait till we get the hang of it and you will feel the same missed-inject trauma.
I am, oddly, always happy when a Zerg opponent contaminates my base. But it only lasts for a moment, because the thought process is:
<goop>
'Huh? ...wow! He contaminated my gateway. Pro!'
<pan to chrono'd robo churning out colossus #3>
'...huh.'
...and then the overseer dies.
Heh, yeah contaminating robo is actually the priority rather than gates.
And yeah... overseers right now die too easily for what they cost to make and the cost of dying (supply lost).
I want to see an overseer mothership. Blot out the friggin' map, bitches!
(does anyone know if contaminating a pylon stops it from giving power? that'd be effin' sexy)
Just beat a Protoss with upgraded Roaches, he had a pretty strong early push, but I made many more Roaches than lings this time, and held it off quite well (With 4 spinecrawlers, 2 placed when I saw his push coming in).
Game goes onto macro mode and suddenly I've 3-3 roaches melting his forces.
Just beat a Protoss with upgraded Roaches, he had a pretty strong early push, but I made many more Roaches than lings this time, and held it off quite well (With 4 spinecrawlers, 2 placed when I saw his push coming in).
Game goes onto macro mode and suddenly I've 3-3 roaches melting his forces.
i'm tellin you man, roaches are awesome. i'd gladly take a nerf to colossi and HTs if it also meant a noticeable buff to zealots and stalkers. gateway armies are awful because of how powerful FF is. yipee!
Guek on
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TL DRNot at all confident in his reflexive opinions of thingsRegistered Userregular
edited February 2011
I was on the receiving end of a pretty nasty 'contam the robo + roach/hydra push' the other day. If they can delay a chrono'd colossus, it can be pretty effective.
What's with me eating sentence parts lately? I've got.
A problem I have with Void Rays is that they scare me, I see 1 or 2 and I have this feeling they will just kill my whole army, so I just retreat or suicide my Queens trying to take care of them. Gargh.
Satsumomo on
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MaratastikJust call me Mara, please!Registered Userregular
Just beat a Protoss with upgraded Roaches, he had a pretty strong early push, but I made many more Roaches than lings this time, and held it off quite well (With 4 spinecrawlers, 2 placed when I saw his push coming in).
Game goes onto macro mode and suddenly I've 3-3 roaches melting his forces.
i'm tellin you man, roaches are awesome. i'd gladly take a nerf to colossi and HTs if it also meant a noticeable buff to zealots and stalkers. gateway armies are awful because of how powerful FF is. yipee!
We talked about the same thing in chat last night, except it was nerf/get rid of FF in exchange for a buff to gateway units. The problem, though, which was pointed out last night, is 4 gating. Sentries (nor colossi/HTs) do not factor into 4 gating and it is already considered a strong build...buffing gateway units would make it unstoppable. I don't know. I just really wish Protoss success didn't hinge on FF. I would much rather use sentries for only guardian shield or hallucinate if I didn't need FFs in order to survive.
FF is so binary right now. You can't nerf it (IMO) without screwing over protoss in the early-mid game (before colossus/HTs) but at the same time, in it's current state, it can nearly make protoss unbeatable in the late game.
Maratastik on
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tuxkamenreally took this picture.Registered Userregular
Contaminate needs a tiny buff imo, either range or less energy? I don't know, you have to get so close with it you will lose the overseer often.
It's really powerful though, 45 seconds of non production is an eternity. Sacing an OL for info is a great idea and you really don't even throw a wrench in anyone's BO, Sacing a OS for both info and stopping production on a Stargate is huge.
Just beat a Protoss with upgraded Roaches, he had a pretty strong early push, but I made many more Roaches than lings this time, and held it off quite well (With 4 spinecrawlers, 2 placed when I saw his push coming in).
Game goes onto macro mode and suddenly I've 3-3 roaches melting his forces.
i'm tellin you man, roaches are awesome. i'd gladly take a nerf to colossi and HTs if it also meant a noticeable buff to zealots and stalkers. gateway armies are awful because of how powerful FF is. yipee!
We talked about the same thing in chat last night, except it was nerf/get rid of FF in exchange for a buff to gateway units. The problem, though, which was pointed out last night, is 4 gating. Sentries (nor colossi/HTs) do not factor into 4 gating and it is already considered a strong build...buffing gateway units would make it unstoppable. I don't know. I just really wish Protoss success didn't hinge on FF. I would much rather use sentries for only guardian shield or hallucinate if I didn't need FFs in order to survive.
FF is so binary right now. You can't nerf it (IMO) without screwing over protoss in the early-mid game (before colossus/HTs) but at the same time, in it's current state, it can nearly make protoss unbeatable in the late game.
Now that I think about...the biggest problem with the 4gate is the warp in mechanic. If you buff gateway units but somehow delay warpgates...then it might not be OP. So..proposal...
Nerf or get rid of forcefield.
Warp gate research requires some tech structure (let's say robo)...this would singlehandedly fix the 4gating all the time in PvP.
Some kind of buff to gateway units (either in damage/hp or cost).
I don't know just an idea. Perhaps also get rid of the fact that warpgates decrease time to build units...but then slightly decrease unit build time from gateways to compensate.
Just beat a Protoss with upgraded Roaches, he had a pretty strong early push, but I made many more Roaches than lings this time, and held it off quite well (With 4 spinecrawlers, 2 placed when I saw his push coming in).
Game goes onto macro mode and suddenly I've 3-3 roaches melting his forces.
i'm tellin you man, roaches are awesome. i'd gladly take a nerf to colossi and HTs if it also meant a noticeable buff to zealots and stalkers. gateway armies are awful because of how powerful FF is. yipee!
We talked about the same thing in chat last night, except it was nerf/get rid of FF in exchange for a buff to gateway units. The problem, though, which was pointed out last night, is 4 gating. Sentries (nor colossi/HTs) do not factor into 4 gating and it is already considered a strong build...buffing gateway units would make it unstoppable. I don't know. I just really wish Protoss success didn't hinge on FF. I would much rather use sentries for only guardian shield or hallucinate if I didn't need FFs in order to survive.
FF is so binary right now. You can't nerf it (IMO) without screwing over protoss in the early-mid game (before colossus/HTs) but at the same time, in it's current state, it can nearly make protoss unbeatable in the late game.
i'm not really for getting rid of FFs since they differentiate toss play quite a bit. it's a cool ability, just a bit too powerful. nerfing it would be really easy too. just make it cost more energy and make it not last as long. that way, they'd still be useful, but you'd have to decide between using FFs and gaurdian shield or invest a ton of gas into a large number of sentries.
Now that I think about...the biggest problem with the 4gate is the warp in mechanic. If you buff gateway units but somehow delay warpgates...then it might not be OP. So..proposal...
Nerf or get rid of forcefield.
Warp gate research requires some tech structure (let's say robo)...this would singlehandedly fix the 4gating all the time in PvP.
Some kind of buff to gateway units (either in damage/hp or cost).
I don't know just an idea. Perhaps also get rid of the fact that warpgates decrease time to build units...but then slightly decrease unit build time from gateways to compensate.
making it require robo would be terrible. no, just increase research time by like 20-30 seconds. 4gates are powerful, but they're not impossible to beat. if you haven't scouted it and prepared for it, you deserve to lose. giving the opposition extra time to get out spines/sentries/bunkers would be ideal imo
Contaminate needs a tiny buff imo, either range or less energy? I don't know, you have to get so close with it you will lose the overseer often.
It's really powerful though, 45 seconds of non production is an eternity. Sacing an OL for info is a great idea and you really don't even throw a wrench in anyone's BO, Sacing a OS for both info and stopping production on a Stargate is huge.
Isn't contaminate 20s duration?
Edit: Oh it's 30 seconds. Still pretty good. Hm. I only really use it in ZvZ, I guess I now know how to stop damn Void Ray rushes eh!
I think it would be reasonable to delay warp gate research either by making it take longer to research or move it to a different building as long as build times for normal gateways was reduced to be only slightly slower than warp gate refresh time.
Contaminate needs a tiny buff imo, either range or less energy? I don't know, you have to get so close with it you will lose the overseer often.
It's really powerful though, 45 seconds of non production is an eternity. Sacing an OL for info is a great idea and you really don't even throw a wrench in anyone's BO, Sacing a OS for both info and stopping production on a Stargate is huge.
Isn't contaminate 20s duration?
Edit: Oh it's 30 seconds. Still pretty good. Hm. I only really use it in ZvZ, I guess I now know how to stop damn Void Ray rushes eh!
Yeah contaminate is brutal in ZvP. All of our stuff takes so long to build anyway that adding 30 seconds on top of that will be agonizing to play against. Also if you drop this onto something that is being Chronoboosted it will burn the CB time.
Now that I think about...the biggest problem with the 4gate is the warp in mechanic. If you buff gateway units but somehow delay warpgates...then it might not be OP. So..proposal...
Nerf or get rid of forcefield.
Warp gate research requires some tech structure (let's say robo)...this would singlehandedly fix the 4gating all the time in PvP.
Some kind of buff to gateway units (either in damage/hp or cost).
I don't know just an idea. Perhaps also get rid of the fact that warpgates decrease time to build units...but then slightly decrease unit build time from gateways to compensate.
making it require robo would be terrible. no, just increase research time by like 20-30 seconds. 4gates are powerful, but they're not impossible to beat. if you haven't scouted it and prepared for it, you deserve to lose. giving the opposition extra time to get out spines/sentries/bunkers would be ideal imo
I don't know...I'd be fine with it...remember part of the deal is that gateway units get a buff. I was in no way suggesting 4gating is OP....but if you buff gateway units then it would probably be OP. I would be perfectly fine with wargates requiring a robo but having stronger gateway units to compensate.
I disagree that you could nerf FF right now w/o buffing something else. While a nerf to FF would be fine late game it would screw over toss in the mid game. Take this for example. We were watching Drag(P) v Vari(T) last night. Both went with a 1 gate/rax build. As they both transitioned to the mid game and Drag teched to colossus you could see Vari's army was plenty big enough to overwhelm Drag's, except for FF. Good splits were the only thing that would keep Drag in the game if Vari attacked before the colossi were out. While this is just one game; one example....this is a common theme I see in PvT. If both players go for a macro game, the Protoss's gateway army can not keep up with the strength of the growing Terran army...not without FF and perfect FF splits. Depending on how long you take to get colossus or when the terran attacks, you need enough energy for multiple FF splits. Now take the example of doubling the energy for FF. Suddenly, the number of times you can split the terran's army is cut in half. You might not be able to afford to mistime or misclick a FF.
I don't know, I feel the Protoss's reliance on FF in the midgame is already precarious enough as is...I'm not sure what nerfing it would do w/o a subsequent buff somewhere else. I find it ironic that I'm trying to defend FF when, honestly, I hate it. It is a cool ability and I would like it if it wasn't the only thing that allows a toss army to survive the midgame.
Maratastik on
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MaratastikJust call me Mara, please!Registered Userregular
I think it would be reasonable to delay warp gate research either by making it take longer to research or move it to a different building as long as build times for normal gateways was reduced to be only slightly slower than warp gate refresh time.
Well the whole point to delaying it is so that you can buff gateway units w/o making 4gate OP. And the idea was to buff gateway units in exchange for nerfing FF. I was just carrying on a discussion we were having in chat last night. I think we mostly agreed that nerfing FF in exchange for buffing gateway units would be fine if it wasn't for 4gating. So I realized if warpgate was delayed enough then maybe gateway units could be buffed (and FF nerfed) without screwing over early game balance.
Posts
I mean, it kind of depends on how much he sacrificed his economy for those lings. If he is on one base, massing lings, then 2-3 sentries would need some fucking magical forcefields to win the day.
Then again, if you see he isn't expanding, you don't open 3 gate expand :P
Also, I've seen idra build extra macro hatches. The general consensus behind them is that you can fully support them if you don't plan on expanding. If you are going for some sort of 2 base roach aggression build (i've seen some where the zerg cuts drones at 24), it is probably worth looking in to.
B.net: Kusanku
One specific example: in TvZ, a macro hatch is understood to be a given with ling/bling/muta play around the time your lair finishes unless you are able to take a quick 3rd. It is difficult to keep your money done while producing just lings and drones off of two saturated bases.
Yeah, I'm speaking under the assumption that he's not using the vaunted speedling all-in, heh.
But generally sentries drive off harassing lings or trap/murder lings that commit to a fight.
I've definitely been surprised before though, if he pops down his second hatch at his natural, but then makes an exceptionally large batch of lings, it can put some good pressure on me. If I'm not careful, he can snipe some sentries which is a huge win for the zerg. It would be very rare that the pressure is enough to force a cancel though.
Yes but 6-7 sentries could handle them.
See, I can also arbitrarily throw out numbers that invalidate your attempt at honest discourse.
Look man, sentries are the reason zerg can't really apply pressure until either hydras or burrow roaches and I promise they're the answer to your early game ling pressure.
Granted, it can be a tricky situation when that happens in pretty much any match up, but it's usually a zerg mistake.
roaches + speedlings with a dash of hydras for flavor. I find that an aggressive zerg player is incredibly hard to deal with, and roaches especially make ZvP so difficult.
If a zerg player has shown that they are going roach heavy, this means I need to pump immortals, right? But immortals don't build all too quickly, are costly, and having more than one robo early on is very difficult to support. What I find happening is that heavy roach pressure will force me to go heavy immortals in lieu of faster colossi. Immortals handle roaches perfectly fine, but speedlings bust the shit out of both stalkers and immortals. It's incredibly tricky finding the right balance of zealots to build because more zealots = less stalkers/immortals which means roaches run you over. I find that I'll often overcompensate too with immortals and then get taken out by the transition to hydras which require colossi or HTs to effectively deal with.
Force fields can work wonders in defending, but that's why you lean more towards constant pressure rather than all ins. Expand to a third while you have the opponent occupied, and just outmacro the sucker. Speedling/muta harass can prevent a timely 3rd expansion from the toss player while you macro up. Liberal use of spine crawlers to defend can also be really intimidating.
Gah, I wish toss static defense was better. Well scratch that. I'd be happy if canons were just a bit cheaper.
Steam ID
Pure roaches get beaten by pure stalkers, in my experience. Specially vs blink stalkers.
Lings can't help unless you COMPLETELY overwhelm (full surround and no sentries) due to stalker control.
I find I have to get to Hydras as fast as possible to hold off mass stalkers.
Witty signature comment goes here...
wra
Oh I missed the announcement.
*checks the website*
Wow, a $50K national championship for SC2. It looks like they basically took last year's prize money and multiplied it by 4. They should still be able to pull the best players with that.
QEDMF xbl: PantsB G+
I'll drop a macro hatch once i'm on 3 bases.
Joe's Stream.
I'm in Omaha and have been eagerly awaiting the MLG schedule. Where is the calendar for MLG? Would anyone be so kinda as to post the Schedule since I'll likely not be able to get to it from here at work.
I am, oddly, always happy when a Zerg opponent contaminates my base. But it only lasts for a moment, because the thought process is:
<goop>
'Huh? ...wow! He contaminated my gateway. Pro!'
<pan to chrono'd robo churning out colossus #3>
'...huh.'
...and then the overseer dies.
Games: Ad Astra Per Phalla | Choose Your Own Phalla
Heh, yeah contaminating robo is actually the priority rather than gates.
And yeah... overseers right now die too easily for what they cost to make and the cost of dying (supply lost).
I want to see an overseer mothership. Blot out the friggin' map, bitches!
(does anyone know if contaminating a pylon stops it from giving power? that'd be effin' sexy)
Witty signature comment goes here...
wra
Game goes onto macro mode and suddenly I've 3-3 roaches melting his forces.
i'm tellin you man, roaches are awesome. i'd gladly take a nerf to colossi and HTs if it also meant a noticeable buff to zealots and stalkers. gateway armies are awful because of how powerful FF is. yipee!
What's with me eating sentence parts lately? I've got.
A problem I have with Void Rays is that they scare me, I see 1 or 2 and I have this feeling they will just kill my whole army, so I just retreat or suicide my Queens trying to take care of them. Gargh.
We talked about the same thing in chat last night, except it was nerf/get rid of FF in exchange for a buff to gateway units. The problem, though, which was pointed out last night, is 4 gating. Sentries (nor colossi/HTs) do not factor into 4 gating and it is already considered a strong build...buffing gateway units would make it unstoppable. I don't know. I just really wish Protoss success didn't hinge on FF. I would much rather use sentries for only guardian shield or hallucinate if I didn't need FFs in order to survive.
FF is so binary right now. You can't nerf it (IMO) without screwing over protoss in the early-mid game (before colossus/HTs) but at the same time, in it's current state, it can nearly make protoss unbeatable in the late game.
Pylons don't depower. Contaminate stops production, not existence.
Games: Ad Astra Per Phalla | Choose Your Own Phalla
It's really powerful though, 45 seconds of non production is an eternity. Sacing an OL for info is a great idea and you really don't even throw a wrench in anyone's BO, Sacing a OS for both info and stopping production on a Stargate is huge.
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7th $3,750.00
8th $3,000.00
Now that I think about...the biggest problem with the 4gate is the warp in mechanic. If you buff gateway units but somehow delay warpgates...then it might not be OP. So..proposal...
Nerf or get rid of forcefield.
Warp gate research requires some tech structure (let's say robo)...this would singlehandedly fix the 4gating all the time in PvP.
Some kind of buff to gateway units (either in damage/hp or cost).
I don't know just an idea. Perhaps also get rid of the fact that warpgates decrease time to build units...but then slightly decrease unit build time from gateways to compensate.
i'm not really for getting rid of FFs since they differentiate toss play quite a bit. it's a cool ability, just a bit too powerful. nerfing it would be really easy too. just make it cost more energy and make it not last as long. that way, they'd still be useful, but you'd have to decide between using FFs and gaurdian shield or invest a ton of gas into a large number of sentries.
making it require robo would be terrible. no, just increase research time by like 20-30 seconds. 4gates are powerful, but they're not impossible to beat. if you haven't scouted it and prepared for it, you deserve to lose. giving the opposition extra time to get out spines/sentries/bunkers would be ideal imo
Isn't contaminate 20s duration?
Edit: Oh it's 30 seconds. Still pretty good. Hm. I only really use it in ZvZ, I guess I now know how to stop damn Void Ray rushes eh!
Yeah contaminate is brutal in ZvP. All of our stuff takes so long to build anyway that adding 30 seconds on top of that will be agonizing to play against. Also if you drop this onto something that is being Chronoboosted it will burn the CB time.
First 2 events have dates
Dallas - April 1-3
Columbus - June 3-5
I don't know...I'd be fine with it...remember part of the deal is that gateway units get a buff. I was in no way suggesting 4gating is OP....but if you buff gateway units then it would probably be OP. I would be perfectly fine with wargates requiring a robo but having stronger gateway units to compensate.
I disagree that you could nerf FF right now w/o buffing something else. While a nerf to FF would be fine late game it would screw over toss in the mid game. Take this for example. We were watching Drag(P) v Vari(T) last night. Both went with a 1 gate/rax build. As they both transitioned to the mid game and Drag teched to colossus you could see Vari's army was plenty big enough to overwhelm Drag's, except for FF. Good splits were the only thing that would keep Drag in the game if Vari attacked before the colossi were out. While this is just one game; one example....this is a common theme I see in PvT. If both players go for a macro game, the Protoss's gateway army can not keep up with the strength of the growing Terran army...not without FF and perfect FF splits. Depending on how long you take to get colossus or when the terran attacks, you need enough energy for multiple FF splits. Now take the example of doubling the energy for FF. Suddenly, the number of times you can split the terran's army is cut in half. You might not be able to afford to mistime or misclick a FF.
I don't know, I feel the Protoss's reliance on FF in the midgame is already precarious enough as is...I'm not sure what nerfing it would do w/o a subsequent buff somewhere else. I find it ironic that I'm trying to defend FF when, honestly, I hate it. It is a cool ability and I would like it if it wasn't the only thing that allows a toss army to survive the midgame.
Well the whole point to delaying it is so that you can buff gateway units w/o making 4gate OP. And the idea was to buff gateway units in exchange for nerfing FF. I was just carrying on a discussion we were having in chat last night. I think we mostly agreed that nerfing FF in exchange for buffing gateway units would be fine if it wasn't for 4gating. So I realized if warpgate was delayed enough then maybe gateway units could be buffed (and FF nerfed) without screwing over early game balance.