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The [Palestine Papers], Or Why The Pen Is Mightier Than The Sword

AngelHedgieAngelHedgie Registered User regular
edited January 2011 in Debate and/or Discourse
So, it seems everyone wants to get into the whole "leak stuff, cause the geopolitical landscape to shift" game. And Arabic news channel Al-Jazeera , with the aid of the UK's Guardian, has managed to really kick off their WikiLeaksesque Transparency Unit with a bang - a release of over 1000 internal PA documents detailing the inner workings of Israel-Palestine peace negotiations. Some of the more interesting revelations have been Abbas ceding Palestinian right of return, Israeli intransigence to Palestinian offers, questionable US decisions, among others.

To say this has been a bombshell is like saying the Middle East is a bit sandy and hot. Already the impact of the papers are settling in, and it looks clear that Abbas is more or less done. The papers also do severe damage to Israeli claims of Palestinians being the roadblock to peace. The US may be in the biggest bind here - the revelations will definitely make the upcoming vote in the UN on a resolution to take a zero tolerance policy on Israeli settlements much harder for the US to deal with. And that's just for starters.

This story is going to be interesting.

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    DarkCrawlerDarkCrawler Registered User regular
    edited January 2011
    Well I'm not sure if they are true or not.

    If they are, well, it's pretty obvious who is the obstacle to peace (as if it already wasn't). I mean, Palestinians basically caved on two of the Big Three issues right there. Three of three if you count in settlements together on the East Jerusalem thing.

    DarkCrawler on
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    WMain00WMain00 Registered User regular
    edited January 2011
    The leaks will likely have the effect that it will knock out Abbas, and likely rattle a few US diplomat cages. Israel is likely to shrug and sit back. What happens next will depend on how the Palestinian people react, though I wouldn't be surprised if this is swept under the carpet.

    WMain00 on
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    DarkCrawlerDarkCrawler Registered User regular
    edited January 2011
    I do wish that Abbas would go. Fayyad would be much preferable as the overall leader.

    DarkCrawler on
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    adytumadytum The Inevitable Rise And FallRegistered User regular
    edited January 2011
    I hope very deeply that, come the next Israeli elections, the reasonable part of the population is able to elect someone that will be interested in making progress.

    adytum on
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    WMain00WMain00 Registered User regular
    edited January 2011
    adytum wrote: »
    I hope very deeply that, come the next Israeli elections, the reasonable part of the population is able to elect someone that will be interested in making progress.

    Those who want to make progress have their hands tied by the conservative and right wing sections of the Knesset. Reconcilation is difficult when your Government regularly has a slim majority and has to negotiate with hardliners.

    WMain00 on
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    adytumadytum The Inevitable Rise And FallRegistered User regular
    edited January 2011
    WMain00 wrote: »
    adytum wrote: »
    I hope very deeply that, come the next Israeli elections, the reasonable part of the population is able to elect someone that will be interested in making progress.

    Those who want to make progress have their hands tied by the conservative and right wing sections of the Knesset. Reconcilation is difficult when your Government regularly has a slim majority and has to negotiate with hardliners.

    Yeah, I know.. and it's depressing. It's frustrating to see such a vibrant, amazing country being driven into the ground by religious zealots and old-timers unwilling to change.

    adytum on
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    AngelHedgieAngelHedgie Registered User regular
    edited January 2011
    WMain00 wrote: »
    The leaks will likely have the effect that it will knock out Abbas, and likely rattle a few US diplomat cages. Israel is likely to shrug and sit back. What happens next will depend on how the Palestinian people react, though I wouldn't be surprised if this is swept under the carpet.

    I doubt they will be shrugging if the US doesn't veto the upcoming resolution in the UN.

    AngelHedgie on
    XBL: Nox Aeternum / PSN: NoxAeternum / NN:NoxAeternum / Steam: noxaeternum
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    TravanTravan Registered User regular
    edited January 2011
    So basically the PA as we know it is as good as dead, and the "peace process" along with it. I'll be shocked if the two-state solution remains a credible option after this. Hamas and the militant parties are going to nail Fatah to the wall with this, and after that its either Israel or Palestine, which basically means Israel.

    This is really just going to suck.
    WMain00 wrote: »
    What happens next will depend on how the Palestinian people react, though I wouldn't be surprised if this is swept under the carpet.

    Honestly, that would probably be worse, if only because it means even the people have lost all hope of survival, let alone independence.

    Travan on
    Gamertag- Travan7838


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    AngelHedgieAngelHedgie Registered User regular
    edited January 2011
    adytum wrote: »
    WMain00 wrote: »
    adytum wrote: »
    I hope very deeply that, come the next Israeli elections, the reasonable part of the population is able to elect someone that will be interested in making progress.

    Those who want to make progress have their hands tied by the conservative and right wing sections of the Knesset. Reconcilation is difficult when your Government regularly has a slim majority and has to negotiate with hardliners.

    Yeah, I know.. and it's depressing. It's frustrating to see such a vibrant, amazing country being driven into the ground by religious zealots and old-timers unwilling to change.

    I'd feel worse if it wasn't their own fault.

    AngelHedgie on
    XBL: Nox Aeternum / PSN: NoxAeternum / NN:NoxAeternum / Steam: noxaeternum
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    DarkCrawlerDarkCrawler Registered User regular
    edited January 2011
    adytum wrote: »
    I hope very deeply that, come the next Israeli elections, the reasonable part of the population is able to elect someone that will be interested in making progress.

    Kadima might win. Ehud Barak went off to form his own party so Labor lost a few votes and it's most visible face and I think in the event of the elections he's going to go to Kadima's side. Yisrael Beiteneu and Likud kind of hate each other right now so that may effect things. Still a bit early to tell anything though.

    DarkCrawler on
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    TravanTravan Registered User regular
    edited January 2011
    adytum wrote: »
    WMain00 wrote: »
    adytum wrote: »
    I hope very deeply that, come the next Israeli elections, the reasonable part of the population is able to elect someone that will be interested in making progress.

    Those who want to make progress have their hands tied by the conservative and right wing sections of the Knesset. Reconcilation is difficult when your Government regularly has a slim majority and has to negotiate with hardliners.

    Yeah, I know.. and it's depressing. It's frustrating to see such a vibrant, amazing country being driven into the ground by religious zealots and old-timers unwilling to change.

    I'd feel worse if it wasn't their own fault.

    I can't help but feel that the US is at least partly to blame. If we had been serious about settling this instead of bloviating about "reliable negotiating partners", then the fear and suspicion that has empowered the far right might not have become so deeply rooted within Israeli society.

    Travan on
    Gamertag- Travan7838


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    AngelHedgieAngelHedgie Registered User regular
    edited January 2011
    Travan wrote: »
    adytum wrote: »
    WMain00 wrote: »
    adytum wrote: »
    I hope very deeply that, come the next Israeli elections, the reasonable part of the population is able to elect someone that will be interested in making progress.

    Those who want to make progress have their hands tied by the conservative and right wing sections of the Knesset. Reconcilation is difficult when your Government regularly has a slim majority and has to negotiate with hardliners.

    Yeah, I know.. and it's depressing. It's frustrating to see such a vibrant, amazing country being driven into the ground by religious zealots and old-timers unwilling to change.

    I'd feel worse if it wasn't their own fault.

    I can't help but feel that the US is at least partly to blame. If we had been serious about settling this instead of bloviating about "reliable negotiating partners", then the fear and suspicion that compels people to take a hardline stance might not have become so deeply rooted within Israeli society.

    Fear and suspicion are nut the sources of the hardliners' stances.

    AngelHedgie on
    XBL: Nox Aeternum / PSN: NoxAeternum / NN:NoxAeternum / Steam: noxaeternum
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    TravanTravan Registered User regular
    edited January 2011
    Okay, that didn't come out as I intended. Post edited, hopefully now its a little more clear.

    Really, all I'm trying to get across is the (no doubt earth-shattering) observation that the US is in many ways responsible for Israel's obstinacy in regards to the peace process, in its unqualified support for Israeli demands even as it presents itself to the world as an honest broker.

    Travan on
    Gamertag- Travan7838


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    WMain00WMain00 Registered User regular
    edited January 2011
    Travan wrote: »
    Okay, that didn't come out as I intended. Post edited, hopefully now its a little more clear.

    Really, all I'm trying to get across is the (no doubt earth-shattering) observation that the US is in many ways responsible for Israel's obstinacy in regards to the peace process, in its unqualified support for Israeli demands even as it presents itself to the world as an honest broker.

    Yes, certainly the US's policies on Israel doesnt help. The insistence on supporting Israel no matter what doesnt help in negotiation situations where Israel is wrong. The other problem though is that nethanhayu's opinion on Obama is probably cold, since they are almost opposite sides of the coin.

    Obama is stuck between a rock and a hard place. I'm quite sure he wants to be headline on Israel, but he has to work against a generally pro Israel America.

    WMain00 on
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    ImprovoloneImprovolone Registered User regular
    edited January 2011
    I really want to understand whats going on, but the names, groups, etc, are all Yiddish to me. What does any of this mean? What groups think what? Who are these people's fathers and what do they do?

    Improvolone on
    Voice actor for hire. My time is free if your project is!
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    DockenDocken Registered User regular
    edited January 2011
    So doing a quick review of the situation: PLA on the way to destruction, Hamas in the ascendancy. Lebanon close to coming under full control of Iran via the help of Hezbollah. Both events due to (or strongly aided by) Israeli stupidity and intransigence.

    This is a situation where Israel is effectively playing for the other team due to their own idiocy. Nice.

    Docken on
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    flamebroiledchickenflamebroiledchicken Registered User regular
    edited January 2011
    I really want to understand whats going on, but the names, groups, etc, are all Yiddish to me. What does any of this mean? What groups think what? Who are these people's fathers and what do they do?

    Basically, this makes everyone look bad.

    It makes the Palestinian Authority look bad because it makes them look like a bunch of spineless suck-ups who are willing to concede everything to Israel and don't actually care about the Palestinian people.

    It makes Israel look bad because it makes them look like hardass douchebags who are unwilling to negotiate with Palestine, even when the Palestinian Authority is willing to make huge concessions.

    It makes the US look bad for pretending to be a neutral party despite obviously supporting Israel and referring to Palestine with repeated disdain.

    flamebroiledchicken on
    y59kydgzuja4.png
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    CouscousCouscous Registered User regular
    edited January 2011
    I really want to understand whats going on, but the names, groups, etc, are all Yiddish to me. What does any of this mean? What groups think what? Who are these people's fathers and what do they do?

    Basically, this makes everyone look bad.

    It makes the Palestinian Authority look bad because it makes them look like a bunch of spineless suck-ups who are willing to concede everything to Israel and don't actually care about the Palestinian people.

    It makes Israel look bad because it makes them look like hardass douchebags who are unwilling to negotiate with Palestine, even when the Palestinian Authority is willing to make huge concessions.

    It makes the US look bad for pretending to be a neutral party despite obviously supporting Israel and referring to Palestine with repeated disdain.

    It proves what everybody probably suspected.

    Couscous on
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    shrykeshryke Member of the Beast Registered User regular
    edited January 2011
    Is there a nice summary of what's in these papers anywhere?

    shryke on
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