Turn-In, Apex, Track-Out: Racing Sims

Captain K

If you know what the thread title means, then this thread is for you.

Years ago, I sank at least 200 hours into Gran Turismo 3, most of it spent shaving tenths of a second off my lap time at Laguna Seca in my overpowered Formula 1 car. I was so hooked on the game, I even bought a book called Going Faster: Mastering the Art of Race Driving, written by a dude who works at the Skip Barber Racing School. If you recognize the title, it might be because the GT3 manual included a tiny race driving handbook and referenced that book.

I recently bought Gran Turismo 4 and now that I've finally started it up, it's sunk its claws into me again. I am rediscovering the joy of clipping apexes and I wonder if any of you dudes are fans of racing sims as well.


A couple of questions to start discussion:

-are there any easy ways to get your car collection started in GT4? My solution in GT3 was to get golds in all the Rally License Tests and use the incredibly souped-up free car, but I don't know if there's any similar tricks in GT4.

-is Forza Motorsport a better game than GT4? I don't own an Xbox, but I've been waiting for a good reason to buy one, and if Forza offers a much better experience than GT4, I might take the plunge.

ToadTheMushroom

MSR on the Dreamcast was and still is the best racing sim out there.

It's basically the predecessor to Project Gotham, but the best thing was it had free running online mode.

Where the whole cities were open, with no track limitations and no barriers. And these were huge. The best part was cause I was in London at the time, and it was accurate. When my friend was setting off from work to go home, I would race him in the game to see who would win. Ofc always me but just dicking around in the free run mode was ace (first one to the bridge wins) etc.

Project Gotham didnt have that.

Neo Rasa

Supposedly Forza offers slightly worse graphics but a more immediately enjoyable experience through damage models on the cars and a better selection of tracks.

For unlocking stuff in GT4, I believe if you have a GT3 save on the same memory card you can transfer your credits/points/whatever to save you some time.

MSR was fantastic, as someone who's long despised games that focus on driving, this one had me hooked.

Captain K

Yeah, my GT3 save allowed me to pass all the B and A license tests in GT4, as well as giving me 100,000 free credits. But that's just a tiny drop in the bucket. :P

Forza has worse graphics? I never would have guessed.

bongi

check on the internet, gt games usually let you import your save from the previous game to get like 10000000 credits or whatever

with forza, some people tell you it's more accurate, others less accurate, some say it looks better, some say it looks worse, play it and see

ttoad: MSR isn't a sim

stigweard

Getting Golds in all the licences will get you some decent cars to start. This is one of those games where you really need a guide or gamefaqs if you want to collect al of the cars. In the used section, there is a ~694 day cycle, after which the weeks of cars in the lots repeat. There are 4 really good race cars, all black, though I can specifically remember which ones they are. You can get them at a really good discount. With 100k, you should be scanning the car lots every day for your favorites. The polyphony formula one can be had by [spoiler:8a52375e21]winning the 24 hour Nurburgring[/spoiler:8a52375e21]

If you are into racing sims, you should also really checkout the pc offerings as well as invest in at least a decent wheel like the G25. It offers a whole lot compared to wheels that cost hundreds more. Specifically, checkout GTR2, GTR Legends (if you don't mind starforce), rFactor, and Live for Speed. Many of them have a dedicated user base that can get you going and help you with making sure each car has its proper and distinctive feel.

edit: one not won

Captain K

I'm already back to my love/hate relationship with license tests. It feels so good to beat any of the gold times... but it's hard as hell. I can usually get a bronze on any of them on my first try, but it might take an hour or more of retries to get the gold times.

Raijin Quickfoot

GT4 is simple to get money in. There is a 2 lap race(I forget which one) takes about 5 minutes to beat and gives you a Toyota Rally Car that can be sold for about $225,000 or something.

I did that race literally 1 million times and I can't remember what it is called. Someone here will remember.

musanman

Raijin Quickfoot wrote:

GT4 is simple to get money in. There is a 2 lap race(I forget which one) takes about 5 minutes to beat and gives you a Toyota Rally Car that can be sold for about $225,000 or something.

I did that race literally 1 million times and I can't remember what it is called. Someone here will remember.

somebody please find this out because I'm stuck

The only thing I've found is like the sunday cup bitch races where I get about $15k each time I beat the whole thing. Need to know where I can get cash, and if I need my car with stage 3 engine (I only have stage 2 and nos)

Bearcat

Every time I see a topic like this I absolutely MUST recommend Live For Speed.

It is bar-none, the most realistic racing sim on the market. It's not the prettiest, but it does many times more calculations per second than any console "sim". Everything from tire deformation to driver position to wind-speed is modeled into the game. Words really do it no justice ... so here's YouTube to save the day.

Here's a good slow-motion demonstration of the tire deformation and physics simulation

and

This is an example of the drifting some guys can do. I've had this game for 2 years and am only now getting the hang of drifing.

Anyways, yes. Buy it online. Get an S2 license, and have fun.

stigweard

That reminds me of this little gem. It is a comparison of the most well known racing simulators and what they have to offer. It is a good read but only part of the story. It doesn't really say how well a sim engine does something, only if it does or not.

Einhander

Holy crap, this turned out to be really long. It's in reply to Captain K's question about Forza:

I'm a huge GT fan, so when I got an Xbox, I was interested in getting Forza to see how it was different.

It's a cool game, but there are quite a few things that irratated me. The cars have damage, but it's generic and often won't occur until a second or two after you impact something. Clipping a wall at 120 and seeing a strip of your paint stuck on it on your next lap is pretty awesome, though. Also, the manufacturers wouldn't allow the cars in Forza to either roll over, or have their windshields blow out.

The GT games have spoiled me in the fact that even though Forza has somewhere around 150 cars (which is a lot), I'm still not impressed after GT4's ridiculous amount of cars old and new.

Also, talking about the car damage, I'm about 60% done with the game, but I've stopped playing because it seems like every time I enter a race, the AI decides to turn it into a demolition derby. When I take a turn wrong and get passed it's one thing, but when the guy behind me uses the PIT on me and I'm up against the wall on the side of the road looking at where I came from it's pretty damn irratating. Especially when you've set the difficulty higher by increasing the damage to a more realistic amount.

Speaking of difficulty, the cool thing about Forza's is you can alter varying things in the game to change the difficulty level, and these things directly affect how much money you win from races. Turning off the "suggested line" (a line around the track that tells you where you should accelerate and brake) ups your winnings by 15%, while changing the damage modeling to cosmetic only (as opposed to regular or realistic) lowers it 25%. THis way you can tailor the game to your liking, which is nice. Turning off the suggested line and changing damage modeling to realistic is a good way to earn more money in the main game.

Graphically, compared to GT4 I would say that Forza has a definite edge in it's environments. Even though they don't have the "charm" that the tracks in the GT series have (tracks like Seattle Circuit and Deep Forest Raceway being examples), the tracks do seem to have a higher detail level, especially in the city tracks. The cars, on the other hand, I would say that GT4 definitely has the edge there. Even though the cars in Forza may have a higher poly count, the cars in GT4 just look more like the original cars. The textures are better, and it seems like more work was put into them, which is a hefty feat, considering that each car in GT4 took around one man-month to render. Being able to customise your car with different decals and logos is pretty awesome, though, even if the tool you use is pretty non-intuitive. The pieces look simple, but if you've got the time and creativity, I've seen some cars that would blow your mind. I've sat down and made a few as well, and the car customisation can get addicting. You can change the color of your car, as well as the paint designs any time you want, which is a huge leg up on GT4's inability to change a color of a car once it's been purchased (or won). Anyone who has won an awesome, useful car in GT4 and been unhappy with the color knows what I mean.

On the subject of tracks, Forza doesn't have enough. But there are a couple of really cool point-to-point tracks, which is cool. One of them is a nightime street course through a city, though, which pretty much smacks more of Need for Speed Underground than a racing sim.

Forza has online play, which you would think would be a good thing, but it's really not. Anyone you race on Live either trash talks the shit out of you using quotes taken straight out of "2 Fast 2 Furious" when you're losing, or they will call you a cheater, blame their car, and quit the race when you're winning. Forza does use the ELO system to rank your skill against other drivers over Live, though, which is a cool addition to single player.

So basically, if you already have an Xbox, Forza is running around $10 used at your local game shop, but unless you've played it first, I don't think it's an Xbox system seller. But there are plenty of reasons to pick up an Xbox right now (a huge amount of awesome games selling dirt cheap, mainly, since a lot of people are offloading their collections when they get 360s), and there are some really good Colin McRea Rally games on the Xbox to make up for the lack of a Rally Mode in Forza Motorsport.

Captain K

Wow, thanks for all the info. I guess I can stick with GT4 and be happy with it for the time being.


I've never actually played any racing game with a wheel; I've always used a controller and been satisfied. Does playing with a wheel really make the game that much more fun? How much could I get a PS2 wheel for?

ViolentChemistry

bongi wrote:

ttoad: MSR isn't a sim

irt K;
GT4 fully supports the Driving Force Pro, Forza doesn't even support Force Feedback. It was an easy choice for me.

As far as a wheel, the Driving Force Pro is worth having, I don't see any point in any others though. Force-Feedback, 900 degrees of rotation.

Einhander

bongi wrote:

ttoad: MSR isn't a sim

Its pretty much Project Gotham Racing Zero. A rad game, though. One of my favorite DC racers. Although the DC had a huge amount of awesome arcade racing games, it was woefully low on sims.

K, no problem. Id' reccomend finding someone with a copy and at least trying it out, but I would still consider GT4 to be the better game. I did forget to mention custom soundtrack support in Forza, though, which is pretty damn awesome.

ViolentChemistry

Einhander wrote:

bongi wrote:

ttoad: MSR isn't a sim

Its pretty much Project Gotham Racing Zero. A rad game, though. One of my favorite DC racers. Although the DC had a huge amount of awesome arcade racing games, it was woefully low on sims.

Oh yeah, sorry, I should have mentioned that MSR was fucking badass, and it was the first arcade racer I played with enough of a traction-model to get me to a point where I was even able to attempt Gran Turismo games.

bruin

Forza was a good game, but the progression was flawed and there were a few minor problems with the driving engine, but I have hope for the sequel.

Also: mmm graphics

bombardier

Captain K wrote:

Wow, thanks for all the info. I guess I can stick with GT4 and be happy with it for the time being.

I've never actually played any racing game with a wheel; I've always used a controller and been satisfied. Does playing with a wheel really make the game that much more fun? How much could I get a PS2 wheel for?

Oh holy shit. You have no idea how fun GT4 is with the wheel, especially the rally/snow races.

I just couldn't play the game enough to enjoy it without the wheel, so I went and picked up the Logitech one that has the full motion rotation and force feedback. I think you can probably get a used one for around $100 now.

The increased sensitivity (moving your whole wheel opposed to moving a tiny little thumbstick, stupid huge thumbs) is great on the precision licenses, and the pedals make precise braking and acceleration a breeze.

The only problem is getting a sturdy table/seating arrangement where you're not going to have the wheel go flying while making mad turns in a rally race.

So that's where you've been...

Edit: and some eyecandy that I had from playing with the GT4 photo thingy...

Captain K

$100 used? Hmm... the new price seems to be around $280, which is way more than I'd ever consider spending.

With the controller, I don't use the thumbstick, I just tap the d-pad as rapidly as I need for each turn. Since the tires aren't going to respond much, if at all, past their traction limit, I tend to do okay with this method. If you're driving at the limit for each turn it really doesn't matter how far you pull the tires over, the car will only turn as much as it possibly can anyway.



On a whim I youtubed for "laguna seca" and I found this sweet vid of some dude doing time trials in his 1975 Alfa Romeo V6:

http://youtube.com/watch?v=7_aVxnraXYE

It's amazing how familiar you get with the courses just by playing them ad nauseam in GT. I spent so many hours going around Laguna Seca, watching this video is almost nostalgic.

bombardier

There's a ton sub $100 on eBay right now, actually.

Captain K

How risky do you think buying a used one would be?

ToadTheMushroom

I was under the impression that MSR and consequently PGR games were 'sims'.

I was mistaken it seems. I guess they are more sim like than, say, Burnout, but Forza and GTR games are probably the same difference on the other side towards realism.

Regardless, if you want sim racers, Live for Speed is like this hyper realistic game that I played for like 2 mins and just gave up. Ive heard its like an actual sim, and not a game. Looked pretty old dunno where you would be able to get it.

Edit: Seems I was beat on Live for Speed. Badly.

bombardier

They seem to be pretty tough, just make sure you get one from a good seller that hasn't been used heavily.

Captain K

As far as how simmy a game I'm interested in playing... GT4 seems more than realistic enough for me. Any game that can punish you with something as complicated as trailing-throttle oversteer is definitely enough of a sim to satisfy my tastes. :P

Hmmm. Maybe I'll look into buying a wheel. I just hit 191 mph on the Fuji Speedway straight in my moderately-tuned Tuscan Speed 6... that felt good.

FyreWulff

I like TOCA 3.

Good variety, not a lot of extras (no photo mode, can't customize the appearance of cars) but it gets the job done. I only wish the replay mode was a bit more functional.

I mean come on, it has monster truck racing. Who doesn't like monster truck racing?

swift

Its threads like this that make me miss motor city online, that game offered true car customisation that took a lot of research, time and testing to figure out a good setup. Shame thats probably what killed it in the end, as i doubt a lot of people were into that kind of this. That and it was run by EA...

Anyway, id say theres no point in getting forza now. As much of a xbox fanboy as i am, GT4 was better than forza but hopefully that will change with the sequal. The only plus forza has over it is the online play but then i doubt many people still play it online.

MiserableMirth

My brother and I like to go to the tracks with our cars. It's good fun. We were at a Best Buy and started a versus race in GT4. We chose the cars we actually own, with the same colors. It was pretty rad.

However, the fact that my car had lost the race in the first four seconds has made me hate that game.

The Evolution is not that fucking fast.

citizen059

Yeah, MCO was a really great game that was horribly mismanaged and slowly choked to death as EA poured all their resources into The Sims: Online.

What a joke.

Anyway, being a former PC racing sim enthusiast who just doesn't have the time for that kind of thing anymore, I figured...what the hell. I'll give my short list of great PC games/sims that I've enjoyed.

1. Papyrus racing sims. Here is a great article at Gamespot about the history of the company. Some of the finest racing sims ever made, from the early days of their Indycar games to their crowning achievement Grand Prix Legends, to NASCAR Racing 2003, the grand finale. Company founder Dave Kaemmer actually just raced in the Rolex 24 Hour race at Daytona last weekend, and with the funding of Boston Red Sox owner John Henry, has founded a new company and is currently working on a completely new and very ambitious direction for sim racing. Be sure and check out their side-by-side comparison video on the main site of a lap at Lime Rock park in a Skip Barber racing school car.

2. ISI racing sims. The ISI engine has been developed over time and has produced some of the best games the genre has to offer. Titles include Sports Car GT, the EA Sports F1 series (ended after 2002/2003 when Sony picked up the exclusive F1 license), rFactor, and even the previously mentioned GTR / GTR2 / GT Legends (which all run on a modified ISI engine). On a sad note, the ISI engine has never done very well with NASCAR & oval racing...all the EA NASCAR sims were built on this engine and were quite poor in comparison to Papyrus' work. Too bad EA has the exclusive license there.

3. Codemasters TOCA Race Driver series. I didn't like RD1, but RD2 was fun and had a great online community. RD3 improved on RD2 and added a lot of features that people wanted in RD2 for online play. Unfortunately, Codemasters dropped the ball when they patched the game to eliminate a well known cheat...and then failed to make the patch required for online play. As a result, the community is split between the patched and the non-patched, and is nowhere near as thriving as it was in RD2.

4. Geoff Crammond's Grand Prix series. Until Sony robbed the PC world of quality F1 sims by making the license a playstation-only feature, the Grand Prix games were often going head to head with ISI/EA's offerings to see who could produce the best F1 sim around. Many will argue that the GP series was the winner. With proper updates from the loyal community, the last installment (GP4) looks nearly as good as a lot of "next gen" games you see today.

bruin

ToadTheMushroom wrote:

I was under the impression that MSR and consequently PGR games were 'sims'.

I was mistaken it seems. I guess they are more sim like than, say, Burnout, but Forza and GTR games are probably the same difference on the other side towards realism.

Regardless, if you want sim racers, Live for Speed is like this hyper realistic game that I played for like 2 mins and just gave up. Ive heard its like an actual sim, and not a game. Looked pretty old dunno where you would be able to get it.

Edit: Seems I was beat on Live for Speed. Badly.

You're right, the PGR games are somewhere in the middle of Need for Speed/Burnout and Forza/Gran Turismo. I actually think it's the perfect balance, it's my favorite racing series.

stigweard

280$ for a new DFP is a rip off. You can get its successor, the G25 for less new. It has way better pesdals (still spring loaded but a round piston prevents side to side movement) including a carpet catcher that works really well, a better ffb system with dual motors, and is leather wrapped steel. The H shifter, clutch, and full pc support are added bonuses that you won't ever use if you don't ever transition from the ps2 to the pc though. You can also bolt mount it to a permanent chassis easily thanks to pre-attached and counter sunk nuts.

Battman23

I have played GT3, GT4, Forza, and Live for Speed. Out of GT3, GT4, and Forza, Forza wins HANDS DOWN! I was in an online racing league and it was a blast. There were, like 6 of us that would race every Tuesday or something. As far as the jerks go, as long as you stay out of S class races, you should be fine. I always liked B and C class racing. GT3 and 4 were good, but when you get some good online races going Forza is like nothing else, but without the online, pretty similiar. I really liked the trainers you could use to learn the tracks. They made me a MUCH better racer overall. For example, before Forza, I wouldn't stand a chance at gold GT licsence tests, but after Forza I could get them with a little bit of practice.

Live for Speed is really cool IF you have a steering wheel. I had the Logitech Wingman w/ force feedback and it is super reallistic. I would just run laps for an hour or so and have a good time. I never really got into the online game, but it seems good.

loflo

Was anyone else bothered by the over the top dynamic lighting on some of the forza tracks? It's been a while since I played it, but I remember there was a hill climb track in Japan (i think) where the sky was so bright at times that the road would darken to the point it was hard to see where everything was. I had to keep jacking up the brightness on the TV.


Also, anyone hankering for a realistic rally sim might like to check out Richard Burns Rally. It's on PC, xbox (also 360 via b.c.), and ps2. It generally didn't score highly in reviews, but I suspect that says more about the abilities of the reviewers than the shortcomings of the game. It's an unforgiving game, but it does help you out by offering a training section that gives you rally lessons.

citizen059

loflo wrote:

Was anyone else bothered by the over the top dynamic lighting on some of the forza tracks? It's been a while since I played it, but I remember there was a hill climb track in Japan (i think) where the sky was so bright at times that the road would darken to the point it was hard to see where everything was. I had to keep jacking up the brightness on the TV.


Also, anyone hankering for a realistic rally sim might like to check out Richard Burns Rally. It's on PC, xbox (also 360 via b.c.), and ps2. It generally didn't score highly in reviews, but I suspect that says more about the abilities of the reviewers than the shortcomings of the game. It's an unforgiving game, but it does help you out by offering a training section that gives you rally lessons.

YES!

RBR is a brilliant rally game. It's insanely difficult...for me, just finishing a stage was often cause for celebration. But it's exactly what you're looking for if you want a hardcore rally sim.

Even though I'm horrible at it, I can't speak highly enough about it.

Captain K

Best played on Xbox, I assume?

Goumindong

From what I have played of Forza the model didnt seem right. It seemed too forgiving.

Captain K

I just did a couple of laps on Nurburgring... wow. I can't believe that track actually exists.


But it does! And a youtube search turned up this incredible vid:

http://youtube.com/watch?v=yAxmOvwRZlI

Dude turns in a blistering 7:15 lap in a Porsche 911. My heart was pounding just watching the video.

loflo

Captain K wrote:

Best played on Xbox, I assume?

I don't know about the ps2 version, but I haven't heard anything to suggest it is drastically inferior to the xbox version. I presume the PC version would run well on most PCs. On xbox, I found the framerate fluctuated a bit when using the behind car view, but was pretty stable when using the in car view.

One thing to note: the in-car view (in the xbox version at least) is perched on the dash board -- as in, you don't see the steering wheel, just the top of the dash. I think it was the same way in the PC version, but then either patches or edited ini files were released that enable a 'behind the wheel' view. Personally, I'm happy enough with the dash-cam, but I can understand why many players want to see their steering wheel.

The game is pretty hardcore. As citizen059 said, just getting through a stage is an achievement in itself half the time.

scootch

the single car physics is decent GT4. I don't like how the game handles car to car interaction.

I really enjoyed forza for what it is. the graphics was poor and the car selection wasn't much better. But it was still extremely fun. The problem I see with most people playing forza is they never consider the A.I.s driving line. many players will stay on their own line and expect not to get hit. In racing, a car will pass you by cutting into your driving line preventing you from taking your proper line. if you ignore this, expect to get pit maneuvered. it's hard to keep track of other cars with limited view a T.V. gives you but it's something you're going to have to learn to overcome and has nothing to do with the ai shortcomings. to me making contact with other cars was one of the best part of forza. in GT series you could get away with a love tap. in real life and to an extent in Forza, love tap can end your race. Forza did a better job of handling car to car interaction.

the worst part of forza was the math behind the tweaking. it had some serious flaws with calculation on mods. it's much easier to break the game in forza through tweaking then GT4.

darleysam

scootch wrote:

the single car physics is decent GT4. I don't like how the game handles car to car interaction.

I really enjoyed forza for what it is. the graphics was poor and the car selection wasn't much better. But it was still extremely fun. The problem I see with most people playing forza is they never consider the A.I.s driving line. many players will stay on their own line and expect not to get hit. In racing, a car will pass you by cutting into your driving line preventing you from taking your proper line. if you ignore this, expect to get pit maneuvered. it's hard to keep track of other cars with limited view a T.V. gives you but it's something you're going to have to learn to overcome and has nothing to do with the ai shortcomings. to me making contact with other cars was one of the best part of forza. in GT series you could get away with a love tap. in real life and to an extent in Forza, love tap can end your race. Forza did a better job of handling car to car interaction.

the worst part of forza was the math behind the tweaking. it had some serious flaws with calculation on mods. it's much easier to break the game in forza through tweaking then GT4.

i learned, recently, you can get 3 xboxes, 3 tvs, 3 copies of Forza, and system-link it all together to make yourself a single-player cockpit.
Shame i'm too lazy/stingy to actually do such a thing.

ViolentChemistry

Captain K wrote:

As far as how simmy a game I'm interested in playing... GT4 seems more than realistic enough for me. Any game that can punish you with something as complicated as trailing-throttle oversteer is definitely enough of a sim to satisfy my tastes. :P

Hmmm. Maybe I'll look into buying a wheel. I just hit 191 mph on the Fuji Speedway straight in my moderately-tuned Tuscan Speed 6... that felt good.

The DFP was $150 new when I bought it the week it came out. It shouldn't be hard to find for $100 at this point. The rotation is tracked with a laser and is constructed with steel ball-bearings, plus the steering-column itself is a piece of steel. Based on what I can see/have read about the construction, I wouldn't worry about a used one being borked unless you buy it from an 8 yr-old, because kids that age can fucking break anything.

Dude, when you're driving the LeMans track (forget what the actual name is), and you hit that huge long wide straight? You'll be actually fighting the wheel to keep the car going straight because that's a really rough stretch of road. So worth it.

stigweard

Not only is the Nurburgring real, you can rent a car and actually race on it for dirt cheap. Once they close down races for the day, the public is allowed to race on it. They have something crazy like 3 deaths a week there (~50 a year for public deaths, mostly motorcyclists).

And you can't go back from a wheel once you get used to it and turn off features like auto center. There is a whole new range of feedback that makes you feel the road through the wheel like you would in a car.