I am just trying to think of a way that they could balance out jets and helos and still have them be fun, they were probably the highest skilled vehicles in the game so there should be a reward.
AA guns for dealing with choppers, SAMs for jets. Make it so SAMs can't lock onto choppers and AA bullets can't damage jets and voila, balance. Both player controlled, of course.
Possibly but BF2 had a similar set up and jets just dominated all that. I mean SAM sites werent a threat in BF2 because I knew where they all were, and if there was mobile AA that was the biggest threat but you would just hide for a bit until you found it and took it out, AA isn't much of a match compared to a helicopter. It sucks being the guy that has the job of sitting there waiting to stop this killing machine, that can just as easily kill you, especially when it never comes around most of the time.
I don't think they should change BF2 flight characteristics too much, the helo seemed almost perfect. I mean you had near perfect control of it, I don't see why that is a problem, it takes A LOT of time to get good with it.
I just had a thought, maybe the AA could be a little more exciting, like a SAM site in the base that could fire fly by wire missiles, or something that takes more skill than lock on and shoot at this fuzzy thing really far off that you can't even see most of the time.
Limited ammo
Target specific ammo (something that could kill a tank would be survivable by troops or vice versa)
Require lock-ons / Painted targets
Some sort of SAM equipment that certain classes can carry.
Or you could just physically gate the jets with level requirements, class requirements, extra long respawn times, etc...
Maybe not the traditional lock ons of the Arma variety but a sort of restriction of either not being able to fire or your missiles being wildly inaccurate unless one of your teammates have tagged something (I'm assuming the BC2 tag system will be in the game).
I can't decipher this answer. Are commanders out? Is he saying that the command structure is just like BC2, or is moving closer towards it?
Q: When I think about Battlefield 2, I always come back to the Commander position and the game within the game that arose from having Special Forces objectives. Are those returning in the proper sequel?
A: We could implement it, but the question is "How do you get the threshold lower?" That's not by making it more complicated. Our challenge is to make sure that anyone that just jumps into the game will get it. One of the biggest problems with Commander was that only two people could use it. Some people liked it but most people didn't care. They just cared that someone gave them an order or that their squad could play together having fun on their own more or less. Then the more hardcore people went into the Commander mode and learned how to use that. You could argue it was a great feature, but looking at the numbers you could also say that no one uses it. We tried in Bad Company 2 to give that tot eh players, so you could issue orders to your squad and you could use gadgets like the UAV that only the commander could use earlier - giving the power back to the players so everyone could use it. That made a big difference. More people could enjoy the game. We lowered the threshold for everyone because we gave it to everyone. We now know where the boundaries are for keeping the strategic depth and complexity while lowering the threshold to get in.
A competent commander didn't need to be obeyed in BF2 to be useful, he just had to spam his radar and uav abilities. And drop supply crates on snipers.
My greatest game of BC2 came as a commander on Karkand. The enemy had just taken a point and was moving together as a team. I looked at the map, judged where their next target would be and guessed at their travel time, and laid down the artillery strike.
I must have killed over half their team, the kill spam was glorious, as was the chatter afterwards.
I liked helis in BF2, the transport was my favorite vehicle.
I despised them until they nerfed the ability to cap while in the helicopter.
On the map with the dam, blackhawk pilots would fly through the tunnel in the middle and cap the flag due to Z-axis chicanery.
I'd go their and plant explosives all over the tunnel and hide and detonate when the chopper came through. It was boring and not the best way to accrue kills, but the resulting deaths / nerdrage from those in the chopper always made it worth it.
At least knock the health down on Choppers a bit. Played some BC2 and a level 50 was tearing my team up. Tracer darts are only effective in certain circumstances and I never could shoot the guy down with a mounted gun quick enough.
Thoughts on Balancing Jets/Helicopters would really just go to making them deal with damage realistically instead of just having a single life bar. Shooting at engine intakes, cockpits, and control surfaces should actually make a difference to the pilot, heavy caliber infantry weapons should be able to do some damage too really if the jet is flying around at low altitude.
I'd also remove all markings from the HUD for anything not laser'd by friendlies, so they could cause a lot of friendly fire if they aren't getting good teamwork. At the same time, a good pilot would still be able to recognize a friendly tank from an enemy one, but infantry would be difficult to tell who's who in a move fire fight.
Anything thats guided and targetting ground units needs to require laser targetting by the ground, or the RIO if the plane is a two seater. Dumb munition is fine because there's degrees of error there, but otherwise the tools to properly use your air assets shouldn't be all in the hands of the pilot and thus leading to the thing we all hate, the game coming down to who has the best pilot.
Also, if you pilot any aircraft, if you eject all you get is a pistol. Would stop them being grabbed by people just using them as a taxi service with no intention of using the plane/heli for fighting.
I wish people didn't hate friendly fire "off" so much.
I don't hate it I just enjoy not having it on.
Mostly because I regularly run around a corner get surprised and empty a clip into my team mate with out thinking.
The Commander in BF2142 was so awesome. You had EMP strikes, Orbital Bombardment you could zoom in your tac screen and start marking targets for your team it was like always having a UAV (you also had a UAV!) and was wonderful
I love it, it makes everything seem much more deadly, need to be more alert and think out what you're doing. Also being run over by your teammates in a tank. Aw yeah.
It would be tits if you were the commander and you, as a player, actually had to go find a map-table or MCOM at your base to command from, rather than just laying down in a corner and bringing up the interface.
At least knock the health down on Choppers a bit. Played some BC2 and a level 50 was tearing my team up. Tracer darts are only effective in certain circumstances and I never could shoot the guy down with a mounted gun quick enough.
If all of the maps used the VADS instead of that slow ass burst one, this would be no problem. Especially on Atacama. It's way too easy for the Helicopter to keep the AA on B destroyed.
It would be tits if you were the commander and you, as a player, actually had to go find a map-table or MCOM at your base to command from, rather than just laying down in a corner and bringing up the interface.
Reminds me of the other fun mini-game part of BF 2.
Finding the enemy commander and killing him / duelling commanders.
"There's one enemy dude by himself in a building. Squad 1, take him out."
Bizazedo on
XBL: Bizazedo
PSN: Bizazedo
CFN: Bizazedo (I don't think I suck, add me).
The universal problem of any high-strategy FPS like this (or MAG for instance) is that most mooks pay no attention to their orders and just go off by themselves to get a good K/D.
Maybe they'll make it sort of a hybrid of PlanetSide and BF2142 where there's a squad leader unlock tree with abilities like calling in a UAV, mortar strike, etc. although on a smaller scale.
Every time I read about no mod tools, I get another idea.
So far,
1 Control point to control, its buried in a building through a fuckton of walls. There are two teams and there are two types of people on those teams. Those who shoot, and those who dig.
Also, 1 building per team with an MCOM on the top floor, well supported ground floors that will be difficult to break. Upper floors will have less support but you have to fight your way up there. The twist, the buildings are statues of Bayonetta and Jeanne.
1 square cube of a map, its straight up squad vs. squad deathmatch. Each spawn is in a single cube, fight your way cube by cube, finding your enemies and rallying with allies....wait, voicechat sucks, this would be a hard map without it.
edit: I like the story because all 4 of bad company realize how over the top and stupid the plot is and the situations they find themselves in are.
I also hate the HUD shown in those scans with a fiery vengeance.
It would be tits if you were the commander and you, as a player, actually had to go find a map-table or MCOM at your base to command from, rather than just laying down in a corner and bringing up the interface.
Sounds like commander has been canned.
I think it's stupid to give all that power to the individual squad leaders, without any kind of higher command level, because then you basically have 8 miniature teams running around the map without any kind of coordination between them. Not only does the commander at cohesiveness to the team, but the physical act of "phoning in" support from another human player above you is satisfying.
On the other hand, you're giving all that power to a single person to do with as they please. You can't always guarantee that the commander isn't an idiot. Making the the highest ranked player on your team the commander doesn't mean they know what they're doing or that they're the best player. It just means they have a lot of free time.
Letting squad leaders call in smaller versions of commander abilities keeps one jackass/griefer from ruining the game for an entire team.
TwistedJester on
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DragkoniasThat Guy Who Does StuffYou Know, There. Registered Userregular
edited February 2011
My main thing is I kind of hope they have a better netcode.
Well then, instead of removing the position altogether, you need to provide incentives for the proper utilization of the position. Squad leader rewards for following orders, commander rewards for having your orders followed, and rewards for the requesting/fulfillment of support.
Well then, instead of removing the position altogether, you need to provide incentives for the proper utilization of the position. Squad leader rewards for following orders, commander rewards for having your orders followed, and rewards for the requesting/fulfillment of support.
BC2 already did this. Points for throwing out ammo crates/heath. Points for killing enemies spotted by your team mates. Points for attacking/defending locations called out by your team mates. Points for repairing tanks.
No one gave a fuck.
Sheep on
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DietarySupplementStill not approved by the FDADublin, OHRegistered Userregular
Well then, instead of removing the position altogether, you need to provide incentives for the proper utilization of the position. Squad leader rewards for following orders, commander rewards for having your orders followed, and rewards for the requesting/fulfillment of support.
BC2 already did this. Points for throwing out ammo crates/heath. Points for killing enemies spotted by your team mates. Points for attacking/defending locations called out by your team mates. Points for repairing tanks.
No one gave a fuck.
Hey now, I gave a fuck. To me the points earned in a class are way more indicative of a good player than K : D.
DietarySupplement on
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CarbonFireSee youin the countryRegistered Userregular
Well then, instead of removing the position altogether, you need to provide incentives for the proper utilization of the position. Squad leader rewards for following orders, commander rewards for having your orders followed, and rewards for the requesting/fulfillment of support.
BC2 already did this. Points for throwing out ammo crates/heath. Points for killing enemies spotted by your team mates. Points for attacking/defending locations called out by your team mates. Points for repairing tanks.
No one gave a fuck.
I wouldn't say no one did. Super medics did, mostly because you could revive/heal your way to an Ace Pin. I saw several times in BC2 where the top player had not a single kill, but butt-loads of points from medic actions.
I think I mostly want tighter shooting and controls. Loved BC2 but it always felt a bit floaty or something, BC1 and MoH were the same. It's pretty much the one thing that CoD still does better, they have supremely tight shooting and movement.
If Dice can clean that up for 3 then I'll be happy.
this is exactly how I feel, except it applies to movement, too
Well then, instead of removing the position altogether, you need to provide incentives for the proper utilization of the position. Squad leader rewards for following orders, commander rewards for having your orders followed, and rewards for the requesting/fulfillment of support.
BC2 already did this. Points for throwing out ammo crates/heath. Points for killing enemies spotted by your team mates. Points for attacking/defending locations called out by your team mates. Points for repairing tanks.
No one gave a fuck.
I wouldn't say no one did. Super medics did, mostly because you could revive/heal your way to an Ace Pin. I saw several times in BC2 where the top player had not a single kill, but butt-loads of points from medic actions.
It was the same thing in BF2 though with medics, keep reviving the same guy who keeps dieing around the corner while you are in cover, or just plain spamming of everything, getting a few kills, medics almost always got #1 unless someone with a jet or helo did. BF2 didn't even have all those fancy assist points either.
I'd like to see a real Kill Cam, one that shows the moment of the person actually killing me. BC2's kill cam was just a "Here's the guy who shot you and here's a couple seconds to see where he was and where he might be heading".
Ninja Snarl PMy helmet is my burden.Ninja Snarl: Gone, but not forgotten.Registered Userregular
edited February 2011
I think it's weird that so many people are down on BF3 because of what was in Battlefield 2 instead of looking forward to improvements built on the solid base of Bad Company 2. I didn't play BF2 for long and I can still remember things like dolphin diving and unbalanced jets making the game nearly unplayable. In comparison, things like grenade spam are merely annoying.
After playing BC2 for a while, I think Dice might actually give a damn when it comes to making a new and better sequel in the series. And instead of people looking forward to things like 64-player teams, better lighting, more destructive environments, and a dozen other other improvements.
Seriously, we've seen something like five screenshots of the game and an article or two. Unless you just need to hate the game, there's nothing concrete out there to really even hate yet.
Dolphin Diving really wasn't that bad, it only stopped people who sucked at aiming from getting a kill. It was rarely used in clan matches too since it hardly helped but ruined your aim.
What would balance helicopters is if players didn't regenerate health while in the copters, it'd be easier to kill the pilots with small arms so they'd be forced to fly at higher altitudes.
I'm not a huge fan of making any of the vehicles feeble. I don't even like how weak the tanks are now. Actual modern tanks can survive a big fucking beating, but maybe like actual tanks it should be easier to immobilize a tank (and slower to repair) and also the whole thing with one guy being able to shoot the main gun and drive the tank is stupid.
What would balance helicopters is if players didn't regenerate health while in the copters, it'd be easier to kill the pilots with small arms so they'd be forced to fly at higher altitudes.
I'm not a huge fan of making any of the vehicles feeble. I don't even like how weak the tanks are now. Actual modern tanks can survive a big fucking beating, but maybe like actual tanks it should be easier to immobilize a tank (and slower to repair) and also the whole thing with one guy being able to shoot the main gun and drive the tank is stupid.
Because having one person shoot and one person drive would never work in this game or this community, it has to be functional with one person and that is their design on all vehicles.
Fizban140 on
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Zxerolfor the smaller pieces, my shovel wouldn't doso i took off my boot and used my shoeRegistered Userregular
edited February 2011
"I'm not spotting because someone might steal my kill!"
God, sometimes I think that the series' worst facet doesn't actually come from the games themselves.
I wonder how this game would play out if kills gave 1 point, spotting (with restrictions) gave 1 point, assists gave 1 point, revives 1 point, vehicles kills 2 points, objectives 10 points, heals/resupply 1 point per whatever amount. Do people care more about points or KDR?
Posts
Possibly but BF2 had a similar set up and jets just dominated all that. I mean SAM sites werent a threat in BF2 because I knew where they all were, and if there was mobile AA that was the biggest threat but you would just hide for a bit until you found it and took it out, AA isn't much of a match compared to a helicopter. It sucks being the guy that has the job of sitting there waiting to stop this killing machine, that can just as easily kill you, especially when it never comes around most of the time.
I don't think they should change BF2 flight characteristics too much, the helo seemed almost perfect. I mean you had near perfect control of it, I don't see why that is a problem, it takes A LOT of time to get good with it.
I just had a thought, maybe the AA could be a little more exciting, like a SAM site in the base that could fire fly by wire missiles, or something that takes more skill than lock on and shoot at this fuzzy thing really far off that you can't even see most of the time.
Put the Tunguska 2S6 in the game.
Nobody will ever want to fly again.
Limited ammo
Target specific ammo (something that could kill a tank would be survivable by troops or vice versa)
Require lock-ons / Painted targets
Some sort of SAM equipment that certain classes can carry.
Or you could just physically gate the jets with level requirements, class requirements, extra long respawn times, etc...
PSN: Beltaine-77 | Steam: beltane77 | Battle.net BadHaggis#1433
My greatest game of BC2 came as a commander on Karkand. The enemy had just taken a point and was moving together as a team. I looked at the map, judged where their next target would be and guessed at their travel time, and laid down the artillery strike.
I must have killed over half their team, the kill spam was glorious, as was the chatter afterwards.
Never been so proud in a BF game
I despised them until they nerfed the ability to cap while in the helicopter.
On the map with the dam, blackhawk pilots would fly through the tunnel in the middle and cap the flag due to Z-axis chicanery.
I'd go their and plant explosives all over the tunnel and hide and detonate when the chopper came through. It was boring and not the best way to accrue kills, but the resulting deaths / nerdrage from those in the chopper always made it worth it.
Sounds like a meaningful version of it is out.
PSN: Bizazedo
CFN: Bizazedo (I don't think I suck, add me).
I'd also remove all markings from the HUD for anything not laser'd by friendlies, so they could cause a lot of friendly fire if they aren't getting good teamwork. At the same time, a good pilot would still be able to recognize a friendly tank from an enemy one, but infantry would be difficult to tell who's who in a move fire fight.
Anything thats guided and targetting ground units needs to require laser targetting by the ground, or the RIO if the plane is a two seater. Dumb munition is fine because there's degrees of error there, but otherwise the tools to properly use your air assets shouldn't be all in the hands of the pilot and thus leading to the thing we all hate, the game coming down to who has the best pilot.
Also, if you pilot any aircraft, if you eject all you get is a pistol. Would stop them being grabbed by people just using them as a taxi service with no intention of using the plane/heli for fighting.
I don't hate it I just enjoy not having it on.
Mostly because I regularly run around a corner get surprised and empty a clip into my team mate with out thinking.
The Commander in BF2142 was so awesome. You had EMP strikes, Orbital Bombardment you could zoom in your tac screen and start marking targets for your team it was like always having a UAV (you also had a UAV!) and was wonderful
It would be tits if you were the commander and you, as a player, actually had to go find a map-table or MCOM at your base to command from, rather than just laying down in a corner and bringing up the interface.
Critical Failures - Havenhold Campaign • August St. Cloud (Human Ranger)
If all of the maps used the VADS instead of that slow ass burst one, this would be no problem. Especially on Atacama. It's way too easy for the Helicopter to keep the AA on B destroyed.
Reminds me of the other fun mini-game part of BF 2.
Finding the enemy commander and killing him / duelling commanders.
"There's one enemy dude by himself in a building. Squad 1, take him out."
PSN: Bizazedo
CFN: Bizazedo (I don't think I suck, add me).
The universal problem of any high-strategy FPS like this (or MAG for instance) is that most mooks pay no attention to their orders and just go off by themselves to get a good K/D.
Critical Failures - Havenhold Campaign • August St. Cloud (Human Ranger)
So far,
1 Control point to control, its buried in a building through a fuckton of walls. There are two teams and there are two types of people on those teams. Those who shoot, and those who dig.
Also, 1 building per team with an MCOM on the top floor, well supported ground floors that will be difficult to break. Upper floors will have less support but you have to fight your way up there. The twist, the buildings are statues of Bayonetta and Jeanne.
1 square cube of a map, its straight up squad vs. squad deathmatch. Each spawn is in a single cube, fight your way cube by cube, finding your enemies and rallying with allies....wait, voicechat sucks, this would be a hard map without it.
edit: I like the story because all 4 of bad company realize how over the top and stupid the plot is and the situations they find themselves in are.
I also hate the HUD shown in those scans with a fiery vengeance.
http://www.fallout3nexus.com/downloads/file.php?id=16534
Sounds like commander has been canned.
I think it's stupid to give all that power to the individual squad leaders, without any kind of higher command level, because then you basically have 8 miniature teams running around the map without any kind of coordination between them. Not only does the commander at cohesiveness to the team, but the physical act of "phoning in" support from another human player above you is satisfying.
Letting squad leaders call in smaller versions of commander abilities keeps one jackass/griefer from ruining the game for an entire team.
The hit detection in BC2 was weird at times.
BC2 already did this. Points for throwing out ammo crates/heath. Points for killing enemies spotted by your team mates. Points for attacking/defending locations called out by your team mates. Points for repairing tanks.
No one gave a fuck.
Hey now, I gave a fuck. To me the points earned in a class are way more indicative of a good player than K : D.
this is exactly how I feel, except it applies to movement, too
It was the same thing in BF2 though with medics, keep reviving the same guy who keeps dieing around the corner while you are in cover, or just plain spamming of everything, getting a few kills, medics almost always got #1 unless someone with a jet or helo did. BF2 didn't even have all those fancy assist points either.
Ideally there would be no kill cam at all.
Steam | Live
After playing BC2 for a while, I think Dice might actually give a damn when it comes to making a new and better sequel in the series. And instead of people looking forward to things like 64-player teams, better lighting, more destructive environments, and a dozen other other improvements.
Seriously, we've seen something like five screenshots of the game and an article or two. Unless you just need to hate the game, there's nothing concrete out there to really even hate yet.
I can't LIME that hard enough.
Give me the position of the enemy and move on quickly
option to turn it off is awesome though
I'm not a huge fan of making any of the vehicles feeble. I don't even like how weak the tanks are now. Actual modern tanks can survive a big fucking beating, but maybe like actual tanks it should be easier to immobilize a tank (and slower to repair) and also the whole thing with one guy being able to shoot the main gun and drive the tank is stupid.
Because having one person shoot and one person drive would never work in this game or this community, it has to be functional with one person and that is their design on all vehicles.
God, sometimes I think that the series' worst facet doesn't actually come from the games themselves.