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What the fuck do I do here?
Figgy
Fighter of the night manChampion of the sunRegistered User regular
Fighter of the night manChampion of the sunRegistered User regular
So my best friend (we'll call him Bill) and his three-year-girlfriend (we'll call her Jill) come over Saturday night for some drinks. They live about 45 minutes away. They're both in our wedding as Best Man and Maid of Honor (we'll call my fiancee Sally). My brother and his wife were also visiting.
Around 11 PM, we're all down in the family room (basement level) playing games and Bill and Jill go upstairs. They don't come down for a bit until finally Bill calls down to Sally and I to come up. When we do, he's in the kitchen kind of teary eyed, and Jill isn't there. He says, "Alright, we had an argument and it's pretty much over." So I sat there talking to him for a few hours and Sally went upstairs to talk to Jill. They both stayed over in separate guest rooms.
The next morning, I had to work at noon. I go down to the family room where Bill is sleeping on the pull-out and say I'm heading to work. He says he's gonna get up and shower and then leave. Sally is going to drive Jill back home because it would be weird for Bill to take her home that day.
As I'm leaving work (around 7pm), Bill texts me and asks if he can come hang out that night. I say that's fine. I also get a text from Sally saying "Have I got a story for you." When I get home, she tells me that she returned from driving Jill home to find Bill still in bed in the family room. She had texted him an hour earlier to see if he had any trouble when he left locking up and setting the alarm. He said, "I haven't left. I've been in bed all day."
So, she gets him a tea and brings it downstairs. It's almost pitch black because it's the family room and the window doesn't let in much light, and as she turns on the light she catches a glimpse of Bill's penis hanging out of the covers a bit. She tries to ignore it and talk to him, and she goes back upstairs. He then gets up, showers, and leaves.
After she tells me all of this when I got home, I kind of laughed it off and said, "That must have been fucking weird, but I really don't think it was intentional. Why didn't you tell him to cover up?" Sally said she felt awkward and it was out of line. But, now Bill is coming back up that night. He gets there shortly after (8:30PM).
I am in the living room now fixing Sally's mother's laptop that she brought with her when she returned from bringing Jill home. She is in the basement with Bill (It's usually where we hang out with friends, home theatre setup, consoles, etc.) She calls for me to join them in a playful way she usually does when she thinks I'm ignoring her/whoever. Like, "Heeeeey, come down here! What are you doooing?" I call down that I'll be down in a minute. She comes up and tells me she is very uncomfortable and she wants me to come down right away. I do.
Shortly after, she went upstairs to do some marking and what not before going to bed, so we didn't see her for the rest of the night. The next day, after Bill leaves, she tells me that she saw his penis hanging out of his shorts again and that's why she was calling me to come down. Fast forward to today (Tuesday evening) and she's even more upset with me, now 100% convinced that he was trying to seduce her by having his dick hanging out when I wasn't in the room (or even home the first time). She thinks he stayed later on Sunday because he wanted to do this. She thinks he wore shorts Sunday night when he came back in order to do this.
He also texted her messages about how he had pictures of himself on his phone he was going to send to Jill but never did, and it's a "good thing noone found his phone that night." Sally is convinced he was suggesting he send the pictures to Sally, instead.
She also said that he had his toiletries bag in the washroom with his iPhone leaning up against the back of the counter, and she thinks that Bill was trying to secretly video tape her when she went to the bathroom.
Now, I don't know what the fuck I'm supposed to do here. Sally is 100% convinced he intentionally showed his penis on both occasions. She is absolutely furious at me because she thinks I'm not taking her seriously and I should be doing something about this. She says Bill is no longer welcome here, and she wants nothing to do with him ever again (or me at the moment.)
Am I crazy here, or does this all make no sense at all? Why would my best friend of 14 years suddenly decide to show his penis to my fiancee? He has absolutely no history of this kind of behaviour. I don't doubt it was a very uncomfortable experience for her, and I've said as much, but I just don't think it was some plot to show his dick to her. My main point is, Bill's character aside, what would be the motive for a guy to do this? To his best friend's fiancee? He's not a stupid guy, so he knows how hitting on her would go down, and I know he never would, so why would he show off his dick?
So, I have talked to Bill about this. I basically told him about what Sally saw and how she is very upset and how she suspects it was intentional. He says he is extremely embarrassed and had no idea he was in a revealing position and assures me it wasn't intentional. He says he stayed late Sunday before leaving because he was paranoid about not setting our alarm properly (we had a break-in a while back). He said he sent the texts about the pictures because he was talking about how weird it is to be single after three years.
I don't know what to do here.
Around 11 PM, we're all down in the family room (basement level) playing games and Bill and Jill go upstairs. They don't come down for a bit until finally Bill calls down to Sally and I to come up. When we do, he's in the kitchen kind of teary eyed, and Jill isn't there. He says, "Alright, we had an argument and it's pretty much over." So I sat there talking to him for a few hours and Sally went upstairs to talk to Jill. They both stayed over in separate guest rooms.
The next morning, I had to work at noon. I go down to the family room where Bill is sleeping on the pull-out and say I'm heading to work. He says he's gonna get up and shower and then leave. Sally is going to drive Jill back home because it would be weird for Bill to take her home that day.
As I'm leaving work (around 7pm), Bill texts me and asks if he can come hang out that night. I say that's fine. I also get a text from Sally saying "Have I got a story for you." When I get home, she tells me that she returned from driving Jill home to find Bill still in bed in the family room. She had texted him an hour earlier to see if he had any trouble when he left locking up and setting the alarm. He said, "I haven't left. I've been in bed all day."
So, she gets him a tea and brings it downstairs. It's almost pitch black because it's the family room and the window doesn't let in much light, and as she turns on the light she catches a glimpse of Bill's penis hanging out of the covers a bit. She tries to ignore it and talk to him, and she goes back upstairs. He then gets up, showers, and leaves.
After she tells me all of this when I got home, I kind of laughed it off and said, "That must have been fucking weird, but I really don't think it was intentional. Why didn't you tell him to cover up?" Sally said she felt awkward and it was out of line. But, now Bill is coming back up that night. He gets there shortly after (8:30PM).
I am in the living room now fixing Sally's mother's laptop that she brought with her when she returned from bringing Jill home. She is in the basement with Bill (It's usually where we hang out with friends, home theatre setup, consoles, etc.) She calls for me to join them in a playful way she usually does when she thinks I'm ignoring her/whoever. Like, "Heeeeey, come down here! What are you doooing?" I call down that I'll be down in a minute. She comes up and tells me she is very uncomfortable and she wants me to come down right away. I do.
Shortly after, she went upstairs to do some marking and what not before going to bed, so we didn't see her for the rest of the night. The next day, after Bill leaves, she tells me that she saw his penis hanging out of his shorts again and that's why she was calling me to come down. Fast forward to today (Tuesday evening) and she's even more upset with me, now 100% convinced that he was trying to seduce her by having his dick hanging out when I wasn't in the room (or even home the first time). She thinks he stayed later on Sunday because he wanted to do this. She thinks he wore shorts Sunday night when he came back in order to do this.
He also texted her messages about how he had pictures of himself on his phone he was going to send to Jill but never did, and it's a "good thing noone found his phone that night." Sally is convinced he was suggesting he send the pictures to Sally, instead.
She also said that he had his toiletries bag in the washroom with his iPhone leaning up against the back of the counter, and she thinks that Bill was trying to secretly video tape her when she went to the bathroom.
Now, I don't know what the fuck I'm supposed to do here. Sally is 100% convinced he intentionally showed his penis on both occasions. She is absolutely furious at me because she thinks I'm not taking her seriously and I should be doing something about this. She says Bill is no longer welcome here, and she wants nothing to do with him ever again (or me at the moment.)
Am I crazy here, or does this all make no sense at all? Why would my best friend of 14 years suddenly decide to show his penis to my fiancee? He has absolutely no history of this kind of behaviour. I don't doubt it was a very uncomfortable experience for her, and I've said as much, but I just don't think it was some plot to show his dick to her. My main point is, Bill's character aside, what would be the motive for a guy to do this? To his best friend's fiancee? He's not a stupid guy, so he knows how hitting on her would go down, and I know he never would, so why would he show off his dick?
So, I have talked to Bill about this. I basically told him about what Sally saw and how she is very upset and how she suspects it was intentional. He says he is extremely embarrassed and had no idea he was in a revealing position and assures me it wasn't intentional. He says he stayed late Sunday before leaving because he was paranoid about not setting our alarm properly (we had a break-in a while back). He said he sent the texts about the pictures because he was talking about how weird it is to be single after three years.
I don't know what to do here.
Figgy on
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Wow. You are reaching there.
Not that I ever wear shorts, but if I did, I imagine I'd notice if my dick was hanging out of them. The iPhone propped up and the super weird conversation about the pictures with your fiancee. Sounds really suspicious to me.
Like this, but with shorts, and with a blanket covering, but she was at the ironing board at an angle where she could see if something was hanging out.
You seemed to have talked with him, I'm not sure if there is much else you can do aside from tell Bill to give Sally some distance for a while.
From the story you've laid out, it seems unlikely to me that it was accidental. If you want to keep hanging out with Bill you're going to need to have a conversation with him about it to try to clear things up, but honestly, if it were me I can't imagine my wife would ever be comfortable alone with him again, and I wouldn't be comfortable with it either because it sounds pretty suspect.
I'm not siding with him, I just don't want to flat out say to her, "you're right, he was trying to show you his dick and now let's rearrange our wedding party."
I've said to her, "You're right, that is fucked up. I imagine it was very uncomfortable for you. I will talk to him about it."
This is stupid. I'm not suggesting that.
Basically all of this. If it makes your fiancée uncomfortable, then that's what matters if you plan on getting married to her.
But I have had a conversation. What do I do when one side says, "Uh, it wasn't intentional. I feel really embarrassed about this." and the other side says, "you showed me your dick on purpose!"
While true, Bill may be reacting very poorly to this break up and doing things out of character out of hurt or confusion.
Confronting him I think was the right thing to do. You've acknowledged that your fiancee is upset with his flashing, intentional or not. The next thing is that regardless of intention you won't put up with it and as a result your own relationship is in jeopardy.
If I was in your shoes I'd get him to agree to make a sincere apology to Sally, in person and in a public setting like a busy coffee shop or pub (public so that Sally can just leave if things are or aren't to her satisfaction, but also busy enough that three friends having a conversation won't make a big scene). You probably shouldn't expect Sally to trust him anytime soon, but getting on top of this and showing her that you're a responsible husband should repair some of the trust in you.
Mmmmm....toasty.
Well you seem to be thinking it was accidental. Even if it was accidental you have two situations. A) he didn't know he was exposed, or
I don't know that she wants an apology. I don't think she wants to ever be in the same room with him again. That's what is keeping me from telling Bill that I would like him to apologize to her.
I completely agree with Sentry here. She's feeling uncomfortable around Bill and I can see why. It's no time to be defending your friend; side with your fiancée.
Nintendo Network ID: PhysiMarc
People do weird shit after a 3 year break up. Weird shit like this? Maybe. It is out of character, you talked to him, and he denied it. Good enough for me (for now); how did future Mrs respond when you told her this?
The video taping thing seems like a stretch. I don't own an iPhone, but would that even work? If you set it up to record, wouldn't it just stop in a few minutes?
But that's all academic. End result: You can do nothing. Tell him he has to stay elsewhere, that business with his cock was weird and you just want to minimize pre-wedding drama. She's the bride, bride is uncomfortable, bride wins. Don't make her validate her feeling on the matter; just give it to her.
No, I said I'm not suggesting what you limed. The entire sentence. In its entirety.
Why don't you just ask her what she wants? Honestly, looks like you're out a Bill for the time being.
Well, first you need to realize that it is clearly a bigger deal to your fiancee then it is to you. And that's okay, you weren't the one exposed to unsolicited wang. Second, you need to realize that this may very well be deal breaker for her. If so, you basically have a decision to make. I think HE needs to be the one to apologize, not you as a go-between... then see if that fixes anything. Other then that, I would just let the matter drop and see if time fixes it at all.
Additionally, she may have more insight into this sudden break up from Jill that could shed more light on this particular situation. Not saying it's likely, but it is possible.
Also, stop trying to minimize Sally's feelings here. She has every right to feel how she does, even if you don't think it's rational. That might help your communication at least.
The break-up was a long time coming, apparently. Jill is best friends with Sally. We actually set them up, but we all went to High School together over a decade ago.
I think the video taping thing was a reasonable concern on Sally's part, but I don't think it's even possible.
Why wouldn't it be possible?
You have talked to Bill, she's not happy with his answer, I guess the next stage is for her to talk to him.
If she doesn't want to, or she won't give him a chance to explain, that's something you guys should talk about and work through.
But you can't be an effective go-between if you don't know who is correct.
I think this is one of those behaviours which seem normal but is actually quite passive-aggressive and rooted in our sexist culture. If Sally is upset with Bill she needs to talk to him (by email would be the most distant way that didn't force her to be around him) and you need to support her in that but not be a messenger, as that just doesn't work.
I think that for now you should probably respect Sally's wish not to have Bill in the house. Whether or not she's right is immaterial right now, because she is feeling very uncomfortable and probably panicked, and let's face it, she lives there and Bill doesn't. Keep her home safe for her. If she feels like you don't believe her, she's probably pretty pissed right now, so let that go for the time being.
If you want to meet up with Bill, meet him elsewhere. There probably isn't a really good reason you can't accommodate this. She may or may not decide later that she overreacted, but right now she's upset.
What did Bill say happened? Sally talked with Jill that night... do we know the ins and outs of Jill's side of the story? What happened between these two, and what might Sally have heard? Is it possible that Jill told Sally something she didn't feel comfortable telling you, that may be contributing to Sally's concern?
I know you want to believe both of them and don't want to believe Bill would come on to your fiancee any more than you want to believe something that bad about your best friend. Has she freaked out like this before, or ever given you any reason to mistrust her on this?
Then the only thing you can do to resolve anything is convince him that whether he meant to or not, your fiancee is pissed enough not to want anything to do with him anymore, and that she may ask for him not to be involved with the wedding. It would be up to him to find someway of making a formal gesture of apology and leave it up to Sally to accept or not. A hand-written letter, perhaps?
It sucks, but if it was my fiancee and my best friend, I would have to side with my lady. This is to be the person who you will be living with for the rest of your life. The trust needs to be repaired. As much as it sucks, 20 years from now if you and your lady move to, say, Reykjavik, your friend won't be a part of your life. She still will be.
Mmmmm....toasty.
I'm pretty sure his phone was in the washroom all night. I think that's why he sent a text saying, "Shit! Thank god noone saw my phone with those pics on it."
That said, DO NOT LET YOUR FIANCE BE ALONE WITH HIM. Tell her that you won't let him alone with her and make good on it. He might actually trying to seduce her because he doesn't know what else to do with himself (or whatever reason he might have). Regardless, this is about how she feels around him. Just be there for her so if this doesn't happen again.
Unfortunately, that's a perfect world situation and you've got a VERY upset and frightened Sally. As her fiancé, throwing up your hands and saying "Hey, it's your situation now. I'm not playing middle-man." is a real fast way to splitsville.
If Sally is feeling violated by this, she may actually be concerned for her safety. Maybe that's a leap and maybe it isn't, I don't know the first thing about either of them, but the absolute least you can do right now is keep him away from her.
As was said, do not minimize her feelings. Not even here. If you even think like that, it will probably come out in the things you say.
Well, you need to figure that out from her.
If she doesn't want or won't accept any kind of apology then there are a few possibilities, arranged from best idea to worst:
Side with your fiance and stop seeing Bill, at least for now.
Keep hanging out with Bill without your fiance, away from your home. This will very likely result in your fiance being pissed at you because she'll continue to think you don't believe her that it was intentional.
Keep hanging out with Bill secretly until your fiance inevitably finds out and everything gets much worse. Obviously this is a terrible idea.
I'd say make sure Bill knows how upset Sally is so that he can at least try to apologize (as others have suggested, either in a public place with you present, or not in person), and then tell him you can't hang out with him -- at least while things settle, though it's completely possible that things don't change and your fiance will never be okay with you hanging out with him again.
Take your fiancee's side, and keep your friend away from her and from the house. If you guys are school time-friends like you said, she'll reinitiate contact with him when she feels ok doing it, later. But don't push her before she's ready, or make her feel uncomfortable.
She's best friends with his ex. With what limited insight we have into that dynamic, I wouldn't hold my breath on that one.
I asked if she would like Bill to come to her and apologize--in person, phone, text, whatever--and she said it won't change anything. She said that if it was intentional, an apology won't cut it. If it wasn't intentional, she's afraid she's going to look silly for making a big deal out of it.
So, again, can't fucking win. Really don't know what I'm supposed to do here aside from, "So Bill won't be coming by here anymore. I've brought it up to him, asked him what the fuck was up, he says he never did it on purpose. So, that's his side. He won't be by here anymore."
Now, this has kind of spiraled into, "Well, you let your friends come up Saturday night and I didn't really want them here. Then, Bill comes back on Sunday and I didn't want him here." I guess I won't mention that "my friends" are actually "our friends" and "my brother." All people in our wedding party. All people we've hung out with a few times a month for over a decade, together.
Christ.
What you do now is make dinner for both of you if she hasn't (or doesn't), give her space if she wants it, do whatever you would normally be doing tonight, tell her you love her, go to bed. See where things are 24 hours from now. For the love of God don't have Bill at your house. Whether accidental or intentional, Bill did a not-great thing. Everyone knows it. Give this time, talk it out as best you can, and when you're done let it rest.
Agreed. You handled your end of the deal - you've told your friend his behavior (intentional or not) was not acceptable and that he's not welcome (for at least the time being). If she continues to move the goal posts back, there's nothing you can do about that but remain calm and rational until she comes to her senses that you're not the bad guy here.
Mmmmm....toasty.
This kind of explains why she is so much more emotional tonight than the past few nights about this issue. It's her first day back to work (she's a teacher) and her work room (where she spends 2/5ths of the day) is full of catty old ladies.
She discussed this issue with these ladies. I know they got her worked up about it even more. For reference, one of these same ladies once told her that I was "disgusting" because she mentioned how she had to shovel the end of the driveway that morning to get to work. She gets up at 6:45am for work. I don't work until 5 pm most nights (sometimes noon), so naturally I'm not up at 6:45am. I was disgusting, because "it's the man's job to shovel the driveway". Sally herself didn't feel this way, but she just told me how that lady reacted to her mentioning it once she got home.
Well, I guess I should stop cooking dinner, cleaning the house, doing laundry, etc. That's all the "woman's job," right? I'd much rather just shovel the end of the driveway the four times a year we have any amount of snow, instead. I can only imagine what those women put in her head about all of this.
She has calmed down for the most part now, watching TV while messing around on her laptop. So, for now I'll just let this rest and see what develops. Bill was actually the one that suggested he not come by for a while:
via texts:
"I just won't come up for a bit. Man you got to trust me. Tell her we talked and I'm really embarrassed. Fuck man, I don't know. Tell me what happens. I really don't know what to say man."
"Cmon seriously I've known you guys for how long. Gotta be kidding that I'd intentionally show my dick off??? Cmon now. Like who the fuck shows their dick off to random ppl???"
"Man I don't know what else to say. I had no intent to do any such thing. You're fucking getting married for christ sake."
For reference, we're all in our late twenties. Bill has a job where he is in a position of relative "authority."
"Bill, cool your shit. Things are really wound up right now. Give it some time, and we might have the chance to sort things out later. For now, just lay low."
Mmmmm....toasty.
I'm not excusing Bill's behaviour, by any means - a guest should always adapt themselves to the customs of their host, so Sally had every right to be upset by him. I just think there could be another reason for the way he acted, aside from "he thought the sight of his glistening pink mole-snake pushing its blind head out into the light would infect your fiancee with uncontrollable lust."
Of course, at this point, his motives are water under the bridge. Follow ceres' calm and rational advice, and wait it out.