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So, I want to go into trademark/copyright law?
The Crowing One
Registered User regular
Registered User regular
After a lot of flopping about, I'm considering a run at a law degree focused on trademark/copyright/IP law. I'm wondering if anyone knows any schools that are especially good for this concentration?
Thanks!
Thanks!
The Crowing One on
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You do? Why?
Technically you're looking at Intellectual Property, so these are apparently the best IP law schools:
http://www.ehow.com/list_6106192_intellectual-property-law-schools.html
Some things before going to Law school though: aside from the list you were provided.
1: Law school is hard, and going to a respectable law school that does IP law (that includes copyright/Trademark) will require a high LSAT score (I managed to get to GW with a 158 [not an amazing score] but most of the other students I know had an average around 165) prepare to study very hard for the LSAT
2: 1L year is very difficult and time consuming no matter where you go. If you are in a relationship and plan to continue that relationship, I recommend making it clear what law school will demand from your time, at least for your first year.
3: It is expensive to go to the best schools because they will charge an arm and a leg to go (I've got close to 200k in debt from GW)
4: The rankings aren't necessarily the most important thing to look at: You want to make sure you will enjoy the school you are at. Get a feel for how the student body interacts [chicago law is notorious for having a bleak student body], if you like where the school is, if you like the school itself in terms of layout. This will be a pretty big part of your life for three+ years so, make sure you like the school.
4a: EDIT Location will be key, you'll notice that the first two schools are west coast, and GW is in DC. Going to these schools will NOT be the same thing. For one thing, if you come here to DC you have more opportunity to do internships and summer clerkships with government agencies and firms who practice here in DC. Stanford on the other hand has Lawrence Lessig, a copyright genius (read Code 2.0, its cool) and who brings numerous cases before federal courts on the issue.
5: Realize that although you'll be able to take classes that focus on trademarks/copyrights in school, you'll also have a sizeable amount of credits you will need to fulfill otherwise: Many students come into law school knowing what they want to practice, and then changing their minds after 1L year.
6: It is uncommon, although not unheard of to "specialize" in an area of law from a 3 year degree. The reason I say "Specialize" is because really all you are doing is learning more about a subject matter by taking more classes involving that subject which is not a requirement to be specialized in a legal field. Having an advanced legal degree, like an LL.M in IP(something GW also offers) shows that you have unique knowledge about the subject matter.
7: Finally, law school can be a whole lot like high school. Keep your head out of the social drama that goes on and you'll be much happier in your experience with law school.
That said, I graduated from a good law school in Chicago know for its IP department almost 2 years ago. My true passion is also copyright and trademark law. However, as I mentioned, the job market for freshly minted attorneys is pretty much the worst it has ever been. You will not get a job unless you a) are in the top 5% of your class and can secure a summer associate job (Big Law) or b) clerk for your entire law school career at a smaller firm. It may be different in 3 years, but that's the current reality.
I started my own firm basically because neither I nor any of my classmates were getting jobs other than temporary doc review gigs (which give aproximately zero legal experience). Since I went this direction my trademark practice has been limited to doing trademark searches and applications for clients and defending against threats of an infringement suit that will almost certainly never happen because nobody has enough money for one. It's fulfilling for now, but a very small part of my practice overall despite it being what I always wanted to do.
Basically in IP law you have a few options. Patent law only if you have a hard science or engineering degree, since only one of those will qualify you to take the patent bar. Copyright and trademark are easier to get into, but there are the same sort of big law/small law divisions. Either you will be a cog in a machine doing bits and pieces of the real work, or you will be doing everything but on much smaller scales and never really anything big or famous, and almost certainly will never argue in front of the TTAB.
I really could go on and on, but I'll try to keep the thread clutter free. Feel free to PM me you'd like to know more.
-Law school is a heavy investment, but practicing law once you are done is not necessarily a requirement to enjoy your law degree. Plenty of people do not become lawyers and the law degree represents a certain skill set that other grad programs do not offer. (making you valuable in management and in other similar fields)
-The legal market is difficult right now, but here in DC IP law is the only area of law (particularly patent law) that is hiring like it used to.
-Even though it is bad right now, I am also hearing stories that the market in DC (and in other big cities) is starting to pickup again (from students in my year who have big law jobs)
-I hate to say it but the better the school you can go to, the better your chances of getting a job you want. That is particularly true here in DC where EVERY major school is competing in every segment of the legal market (Harvard, Yale, UPenn, UVa, Georgetown, U Chicago, any school in the top 30 is here). Coming from a big name school, either in specialty or from overall ranking will increase you chances of a job.
I've been flopping about on "where to go from here" after spending three years post-bachelors in a field I absolutely despise. All of the reasons above (bad job market; high cost; insanely difficult first year, etc.) make me very nervous. I know that law is a bloated field at the moment.
I didn't even consider the idea that government work could come from this, really. But I suppose I'm not surprised.
My "bent" on IP is insanely liberal. In some fairy world where I could do what I wanted, I'd want to stand up for the little guys. I understand that that's fantasy, and that I would, in all likelihood, have to work in conditions and positions I don't necessarily find attractive. More to the point is just that I keep coming back to this area of study because I'm fascinated by it. The fact that it's a field that is certainly expanding and rapidly changing strikes me as both engaging and long-term. As a younger person, now, it seems a good window to try to enter a field like this.
Then again, if life has taught me anything it's that you hardly ever end up doing what you want to do.
I'm very split and hesitant, but this is all good food for thought. Thanks.
Maybe you should try to get a job as a paralegal to get some first hand exposure.
I'm actually a legal assistant in real estate and foreclosure law, at the moment.
The idea simply being that to practice law one needs a law degree, as well as the fact that it opens non-legal-practice options, as well.
It also opens up a massive amount of debt to gain access to a career field that already has far more people than jobs. Don't get the degree unless you're serious about using it.
The best advice i ever had was from my uncle: he looked at me and said, "Fuck cost. Get the hell out of Utah and chase your dream. Otherwise what the hell have you been doing all this for? Don't think of the costs, think of your dreams." Make sure that Law school is a dream. YOu do not want to be like so many people in law, who do this only for the money, and end up hating their life because of the cruel hours of biglaw, or worse, disenfranchised when they take a 60k a year job, after they had such high hopes of making 130k a year as a starting associate.
Finally, yes, the legal market is a bloated field. But going to the top schools tends to take out some of the bloat factor. Also, the market is more about your ability to advertise yourself, like in any job. YEs, the old days of yore are gone where law grads had their pick of the litter for jobs, even if they didn't do that well, but seriously, the market is now like a regular job hunt. BUT all that comes after you've made up your mind about whether law school is right for you.
Some things to avoid:
-Don't watch paper chase. It won't help ease your concerns about the difficult of 1L year (yes it is hard, it ain't that hard)
-Don't read 1L. This will just scare you some more about law school (again 1L is difficult but it isn't bone crushing difficult)
-Talk to school counselors and, if you are fortunate enough, the law school staff at schools near you and ask them what you can expect from law school and how to determine if it is the right move for you.
Another thing to think about is where you want to go to school and live. For about 80% of the graduates, they will live and practice in the state (and potentially even city) where their school was. This will impact your dreams of practicing IP as your going to need to go to a school in an area where IP is really big such as NY, DC, LA, SF, Chicago, otherwise the offerings will be much slimmer.
As for your "sticking up for the little guys", yeah that's almost certainly going to go out the window at some point during law school. Hell, I wrote my admission essay on how I was going to go to work for the EFF and defend people from RIAA. That never ended up happening.
Mostly because it's really, really hard to work for the EFF in any capacity. In prior years my advice on these threads has been to go to the best school you get into. But the cost of attending law school is going up, insensitive to market changes. GW is one of the worst examples of this. The crushing debt load just isn't worth it. The long-term sectoral trend for lawyers, given both the oversupply of JDs and the ability to automate or outsource legal work, is grim.
If law school is worth it at all, which I sincerely doubt in today's current realities, it's by going somewhere where you have no to little downside risk - a place where you have no tuition loans.
Would you mind elaborating?
This isn't exactly what you had in mind but you might want to consider getting an Economics Masters focused on Industrial Organization. It sidesteps law school but still has the potential to get you into the field, possibly with less debt and better job prospects.
If you want to go to a strong regional state school (my bro does the U of U and he is doing great there) it will cost you a whole lot less. But I wouldn't count on getting much IP work because many state schools are not considered great in terms of IP (Berkeley being an exception)
It sounds like Kaliyama doesn't enjoy the IP law he/she is doing. That happens. Law isn't for everyone, and the law can be extremely boring if you aren't into it. If you go to law school, have an open mind, and take lots of classes to see what it is you genuinely enjoy.
BUT, law isn't for the meek. If you are thinking of just dabling in law school to see if you like it, I'd recommend not wasting your money. Nothing is worse than coming out of 1L and thinking "I don't want to do this anymore". It is a hard degree to get, particularly from the better schools. It costs a whole lot, and you have to be willing to pound pavement to get a job (this is true for many of my friends who are in the top15% of the class). Do not forget that law school teaches you a different way of thinking that other academic focuses will not. These skills are critical in numerous non law related applications and are good for life in general.
Law isn't for the meek? You gunner 3L. Investment banking isn't for the meek. The United States Army isn't for the meek (opinions reserved on the chair force). The Steeler's defensive line isn't for the meek. Law is a knowledge worker profession full of indoor kids, nerds, and the meek, and it rewards those qualities in many institutional legal environments.
Law school is sitting around with academics who couldn't make it a day in practice (anyone teaching at a tier 1 school has a stellar academic pedigree and could be making millions, but are so lazy and adverse to the practice of law that they choose tenure, a modest salary, and free time) talking about theory entirely divorced from its application.
Being a lawyer means litigating a case or advising a client. You don't get to pen "big think" Cory Doctorow or Larry Lessig pieces on how IP law should be organized. You operate in the normal realm of appellate court precedent and rules of procedure even if the issue you're fighting about is theoretically "sexy" or illuminated by regression analysis.
75% of actual lawyering is stuff so dumb a monkey could do it. The other 25% can be fun. I have billed 700 hours since January 1st. Doing a Fun piece of work at 2 AM for the fourth night a row becomes "Not Fun." Ending up like ATI Rage will be in a year, paying $14,000 a year on INTEREST in his $200k in loans, pretty much guarantees you will be doing a job that is Not Fun and hating every minute of it, or Eating Ramen While Being Hounded By Your Creditors, or making $40,000 a year helping the indigent while receiving loan repayment assistance - noble, but not if you want afford mortgage or a spouse, and competition for entry level public interest jobs is cutthroat. Or what, if, heaven forbid, you are part of the 10-30% of the people in your jurisdiction who go to law school and don't pass the bar? You will be $200k in debt WITH NO JOB PROSPECTS from your degree.
A good look at what practice is like can be had at http://thepeoplestherapist.com/. The characterization of individual partners show off the worst, IMO, but the general description of the state of mind you end up good.
There's no such thing as a "top IP" school or whatever; what matters is absolute school rank, with the top 1-30 having varying degrees of national or regional reach and then the relative local rankings matter more after that. (i.e. better to go to the 70th nationally-ranked school in your state than the 60th in another state).
That said, all schools lie about their employment statistics and many people never find a real legal job, and this gets more true the further down the ladder you go.
But as the above poster said, a huge amount of lawyer work is pretty dull, repetitive stuff that anyone of average intelligence (or a monkey) could do. The fun bits will depend on what you like, which you probably won't know until you actually start practicing. Or at least I certainly didn't. Turns out I like being in an in-house/consultancy role but it took me a couple of years post admission to discover this.
The anglo model is infinitely better than our own. Law needn't be a professional degree - your undergrad/conversion model makes things a lot more cost effective for students. And because we get three years of training there is less margin for on the job training - we have zero effective apprenticeship systems and lots of talent gets underdeveloped because it's hard to justify paying someone a fully-fledged lawyer salary if you have to train them. This leads to a lot of people starting out doing rote monkey tasks better outsourced to done by paralegals because they somehow can bill for them at lawyer rates.
Does NZ do the trainee system like the UK?
And to ATIRage: i'm not trying to be pessimistic, so much as descriptive. It's not that there aren't rewarding legal jobs out there, it's that there are an oversupply of lawyers at every level of experience, and junior lawyers aren't getting them. The expected value of one's law degree is certainly a net negative.
That said, those that make it to the top are some absurdly intelligent people.
Maybe read this too if you get a chance. Not trying to gloom and doom you, but, uh, yeah. Good luck with whatever you choose to do.
I normally try to talk everyone out of going to law school, but in situations like yours, you have enough exposure to the law that you might actually enjoy being a lawyer. Most people are only exposed to the law by TV, and don't understand that actual law practice is primarily minutiae, fighting about other people's money. It doesn't matter what area of the law you practice; those are the reasons people hire a lawyer, so that is mostly what you will be doing.
The father of a friend was a law school dean, and so was frequently asked "Should I go to law school?" His response was always that law schools were full of really smart people that did not know what else to do with their lives. This made for a lot of unhappy lawyers once they encountered the often mind-numbing realities of law practice. He was right, but if you go in with your eyes open & understand what 60-70 hours a week at a desk is like, then you may want to pursue a law degree.
There's still a lot of risk to consider, though. I'm in Los Angeles, and based on what I have seen recently in hiring, the job market remains awful. I work in public law, and our side of the law pays a lot less than the private side. Despite that, we're seeing top 10% graduates applying for openings. Ten years ago, they wouldn't have even read our ads, so I know there is a huge glut of young lawyers out there.
In this environment, the student loan issue deserves very serious consideration. I've had my own stress in dealing with student loans, but I can't even imagine the feeling of despair that would come from being $150k in the hole & unemployed. Do not enter into this lightly.
We don't do the trainee route (not sure why) and the only route to domestic qualification is via an undergraduate degree (LLB), after which you can take the bar (Professional Studies). Generally though newly admitted/graduated types have low salary expectations, then about year 2/3 their value goes up quite a bit.
I don't dislike the English trainee/pupillage system, but it does introduce bottle necks into the system which when combined with other local factors has a slightly unsavoury outcome I think. It seems to be very hard to become a barrister for example. Whereas back home, well, we all are. So it becomes more a matter of competence than first run connections (getting a pupillage seems rather hard from what English friends / colleagues say). Who you know, where you went to school, university and the like seem far more important than I'd like.