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Tell me about poker!
Spawnbroker
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Hey everyone, so recently I picked up a couple of Hold 'em Poker books and read them. I played free online poker before and like it as a hobby, and wanted to learn more about how to play actual poker and what I should be doing.
The books I've read so far are:
Harrington on Hold 'em Expert Strategy for No Limit Tournaments, Volume One, by Dan Harrington
Small Stakes No Limit Hold 'em, by Ed Miller
Both of these books helped me understand a bit more about the game, namely that I don't understand the game at all. I've been playing in microstakes ($.01/$.02 blinds) games online and doing decently, but still suffering from glaring mistakes and misreading of hands. Does anyone have any good book recommendations for further study?
Note, I don't suffer from any illusions that this will make me money, this is just a hobby and I have fun with it. I want to learn more about the game. I can't say I understood everything in both of the books I've read so far, but I know enough to make me realize I don't know anything. So, recommend on!
The books I've read so far are:
Harrington on Hold 'em Expert Strategy for No Limit Tournaments, Volume One, by Dan Harrington
Small Stakes No Limit Hold 'em, by Ed Miller
Both of these books helped me understand a bit more about the game, namely that I don't understand the game at all. I've been playing in microstakes ($.01/$.02 blinds) games online and doing decently, but still suffering from glaring mistakes and misreading of hands. Does anyone have any good book recommendations for further study?
Note, I don't suffer from any illusions that this will make me money, this is just a hobby and I have fun with it. I want to learn more about the game. I can't say I understood everything in both of the books I've read so far, but I know enough to make me realize I don't know anything. So, recommend on!
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The guys I know that are really good at poker know the odds of winning a hand off the top of their head.
The main problem for you is that you are playing microstakes. People will call anything when all they stand to lose is 1 cent. All in for a dollar! Yessir! Can't ever push anyone out that way.
but they're listening to every word I say
When I first started playing I read Phil Gordon's Little Green Book. It's hardly a reference, more like an introduction, and offers some basic betting strategy and some shorthand on calculating odds of hitting your outs on 4th st and the river.
You might want to organize a regular game with friends IRL with a bit higher stakes, and learn together. It's a lot of fun, and usually cheaper than going out drinking. Unless you get unlucky and react by getting all tilty and stubborn.
An important aspect to train though is to remember your position, the bets/raises and the amount preflop, on the flop, turn and river and calculate your pot odds. Value bets are often more dangerous than overbets, but if you have good pot odds it may pay off to call. And no, calling half the pot size with a flush draw with one card to go are not good odds.
No limit is a different monster than tournament play as it's a lot easier to muscle people out of a hand, you also stand to win/lose a lot more in no limit.
Free online poker (i've never played for real money) is not good practice, except to understand the flow of the game. People will go all in before the flop all the time because they just don't care. Oooo Ace, 10? ALL IN. that is not how people play when money is on the line.
This is a good thing and basically highlights the key aspect of poker which is that you need to adjust how you play based on the table you're at. At low microstakes the main thing is to never bluff and just bet value hands all the way down. I don't know if Chen plays IRL or higher stakes, but being unpredictable is completely useless when everyone at the table isn't paying attention which will probably be the case until at least 50NL.
Twoplustwo has great books and a great forum if you're serious about learning.
If most people at the table are playing fast, play tight.
If most people are playing tight, play fast and aggressive.
Thanks, I'll check the forum out. I've been reading books by them, and they've been really helpful.
I think I'll keep playing at the microstakes level until I can consistently break even or win money, then try moving up to higher stakes one at a time.
Only in movies, chief.
OP, at those stakes you're playing with a bunch of random kids (of all ages) pounding buttons. You'll want to pick up some books by David Skalansky as a good starting point. That Dan Harrington book seems more for advanced players.
The nice thing about poker for all levels of skill is that it has some measure of luck built into it. It's just enough for the bad players to want to keep pushing on that button that will sometimes administer cheese and sometimes a shock.
As you learn the game and if you want to take it sort of seriously, you can pick up a good tracking tool and log your hands to see what is working and not working in your game.
Go sign up for the 2+2 forum and read it, post sometimes. You'll learn there too.
I just picked up a Sklansky book today actually, No Limit Hold 'em: Theory and Practice. It's a good read, I like it.
I already use tracking software, I know what a Nit is. My stats are usually somewhere around 28/22. I need to tighten up my game a bit, but I really don't know how to value bet yet, so I'm having trouble beating calling stations.
Signed up on 2+2 forums today, they have a lot of good info for new players, thanks for that!
Ring games at that level are probably more frustrating than anything, I'd suggest trying some tournaments. You usually get more bang for buck in a tourny, try a couple $2 single tables or maybe bigger ones if you're up for it. You will develop your own playstyle, but no matter what you need to realize sometimes you're going to have to push that stack in, and you might lose it all.
It takes a certain detachment from money to play successfully. Sometimes you're going to do everything right and lose. That blows, if you can't handle that depressing fact then just keep it friendly. You can't use fancy moves and outplay somebody who doesn't know they should be folding, or spot your subtle play.
AK isn't a good hand. It's a potentially good hand. The reason AK is a good hand is because it's easy to get away from if you miss the flop.
And I wouldn't suggest you get better at golf by playing against people who are terrible at golf. You're going to learn from people who have something to offer. That's not to say you should go buyin at Bobby's room at the Bellagio, but play some tournaments and you'll learn a lot more for about the same price.
Ok maybe reading people isn't more important, but it's definitely very important in no limit (in limit you can just play the odds).
This is true both online and live. I'll play the same hand in the same position very differently depending on what I know about the players and how they play. This is why the most important thing any poker player can do is to pay equal attention to the hands he's not playing.
OP, you should ask yourself this question: Do I want to become good? (If you want to win money consistently, you have to be a good player, otherwise you're just gambling - being a good player takes a lot of study (A LOT of study))
I approach poker the same way I approach art. I study, I watch other people play, I read books, I visit forums (2+2 is cool - A lot of pros including Greg Raymer started there), and I play pretty much every free moment I have.
At the risk of sounding like a huge shill, I recommend a website called pokersavvy plus. They have ten or twelve professional players on staff who make videos - hour long lectures or series on any topic you can imagine. Yeah, it costs money (It's so worth it compared to the money you'll lose figuring this shit out for yourself), but it's a great place to learn the fundamentals of the game (but it would help if you had a study partner or a mentor, as the forums there are a bit slow), and several of the videos are play-by-plays of tournaments. I wholeheartedly recommend it.
Also, yeah. Reading people is pretty fucking important, but not quite like you think. In a live game, sure, maybe the guy always scratches his nose when he hits his draw or whatever. It doesn't matter. You generally are trying to put people on a "range" of hands, since actually reading their exact hand is not something people do. This is a CRUCIAL skill whether you're playing live or online, because if you can't judge your opponent's probable holdings, you can never tell where you stand in the current play as far as your expected value (EV, which is another concept you'll learn about on PS+)
Don't worry TOO much about it in a 1/2 cent game, because 99.9% of the people you're playing against are retards and will pretty much play any two cards (This is why Phil Helmuth is always so pissed when he gets sucked out on by people who shouldn't really have been in the hand in the first place - For instance, playing KJo (or basically anything worse than JJ+/AKs+ in a 3bet pot out of position is a bad play and the only time you should do it is if you're trying to fuck with people's perception of your ranges)
So it goes like this
Learn the fundamental concepts (Equity, expected value, hand strength, ranges, position, bet sizing, getting value from good hands, squeeze plays, stack awareness, tournament strategies, etc) - Like, if you don't know this, nothing will make sense to you - so learn it! Live it!
Keep playing for practice, and if you get into a tough spot, you can save your hand history and post it on PS+ forums or 2+2, and they will critique your play)
Watch the pros talk through their plays (If you don't get why they did something, pause the video, note it, and ask on the forums) Also, watching these videos, be mindful of the level of players you're facing according to the buy-in (but never assume) Generally speaking, anything $25 or below for a tournament buy-in or $50 or below for cash game is pretty much the kiddy pool.
e: NO OPEN LIMPING EVER.
http://www.deucescracked.com/podcasts/deuceplays/podcast.xml
If you're looking at live play, the ones by Limon are some of my favorite.
For online there is plenty of discussion on optimal 3 bet ranges vs unobservant players, or different strategies from 10nl to 1000nl etc.
Oh, btw, if people will call and "suck out", just bluff less, and play your stronger hands bigger. Also play more speculative hands in position and overlimp if you need to, and just play fit/fold poker if you miss and there's action before you.
Contrary to what people say, AK is a GREAT hand not a good one. It's one of the top 5 hands really.
I'd personally rate AA, KK, QQ, and then JJ/AK are about equal depending on how the table is.
All I will add is that a fundamental understanding of the game will help you immensely in understanding the logic that people like Brunson and Slansky use in their writings.
Don't let your emotions get in your way, either. Poker is about making consistently good decisions. If you get sucked out on, just ask yourself "Did I make the right play there?", or better yet, post the hand history and let other people tell you whether you did. If you're making the right decisions consistently, you will win in the long run.
e: One final thought. Small stakes players that overbet the pot almost ALWAYS have monster hands. They are probably not trying to make a play on you, and for the most part it's a transparent attempt to get paid off. Don't call the bet unless you have observed them making the same play against someone else. When somebody bets $27 into $0.75, walk the fuck away unless you're sure you have the best hand.
Don't peel straight draws on flush boards.
Don't peel flush draws on paired boards.
There. That's everything. I think.
Truth.
Sat down at a tournament the other day and a guy raised $400 on a $50 big blind, which is fine but it was his smug look, which ticked me off. Mostly cause I had a low pocket pair and I was hoping for calls all around.
So I called his raise and of course he had pocket aces.
I was dumb letting a look affect my betting. Rookie stuff.
This goes for loud mouth's or people who talk shit.
Bad beats, you're going to experience them. Learn to live with it.
Check for local poker 'parlors' in your area. There is usually tournaments being held every weekend. The ones in my area are $5 - $10 buy ins and pay outs dependent on attendance. No better experience than getting in there face to face.
This was good advice, I googled for poker parlors in my area, and there's one in my town. Unfortunately, from their website they seem to be a little exclusive / expensive for what I'm looking for. Their cheapest tournaments are $50 buy-ins, all the way up to $300 tournaments once a month. They have weekly games for $2/$5 blinds, and $1/$2 blinds, but no mention of any cheaper games. I'll head down there and check it out and ask them if they are open to new players, but I'll see how it goes.
Super System
Caro's Book of Tells
The Theory of Poker
Caro's Book of Tells is pretty neat. Obviously, it can be difficult to read some people but by reading the book a few times and keeping an eye out, it's made me a better player. Actually, it mostly helped me be aware of how much I let people know by not controlling myself.
I don't care what anyone says.. being able to read tells is damn important once you move up to competitive games.
Online poker is not really great for practicing for a real table. People play loose as hell, even with real money in my experience.
Tells are nice and all, if you can pick it up, but good players will either send the wrong signals or send nothing at all. Don't label people as stupid just because he's showing his hand after winning a pot for example. He's probably doing it to take advantage and create a board presence. No, most of the reliable information should initially come from the bet frequency, bet sizes and showdowns from a player.
But you probably already read that somewhere. Obviously, stakes matter. Blinds, not so much if it's no limit. Formats also matter. Cash games and tournament poker are wildly different beasts. People will generally play differently if there's an option to rebuy. Don't expect experience from both formats to transfer over. Should you play tournaments, learning to play heads up is crucial. Definitely look that up.
discuss hands with people (2p2 as others have mentioned is a great forum).
read as much good poker writing as you can get your hands on. the first two books you read are good, and i can't recommend Sklansky's Theory of Poker highly enough. having a general grounding in the core concepts of the game is really valuable.
try to think about why you are doing what you're doing at each decision point (do i have the best hand and want to get paid? do i make more money by calling or raising here? do i want my opponent to fold or call, and what's the best bet size to help me accomplish that goal? based on my opponent's actions, what range of hands can i put him on, and how should i play against that range?)
i also disagree with the people who recommend playing live for learning purposes. playing online allows you to play many more hands per hour, and the overall quality of player is much higher online than live. the average $1/$2 NL player online will be much stronger than the average player at the $1/$2 game at any casino.
beware the advice of people who talk about poker in simple absolutes.
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you need to know how to do odds
but i would recommend this book: zen and the art of poker
it might seem ridiculous, but when i was younger and just getting into it, it taught me an awful lot about patience that before i was rammin n jammin and trying to force my way. which, sometimes has it's uses, but not all the time.
also: take your lumps like a man, don't go on tilt, and if you win a big hand don't go around gloating and DEFINITELY do not berate the person you just beat. you know why? you should encourage bad players to give you their money. don't give them any free lessons at the table.
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