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Euphemonitsudemo sagashiteiruyodokka ni kimi no sugata woRegistered Userregular
edited April 2011
See, this is what I was talking about from the thread before. Every time a player loses, people start talking mad shit about them. Sure, you might not like them, but have some fucking respect for them. You really think that Idra didn't know what he was doing with his broodlords? You really think that you know better than him? Or that he didn't want to end the game when he was ahead, especially when he hates protoss lategame?
Yeah, sometimes players just totally fall apart, but have some respect for their play at least. Know that they are as far removed from you as you are from a league below you.
Not to mention, MC didn't play anywhere near perfectly. He had a huge lead early-game with his stargate play, and he let Idra claw his way into a huge lead.
Euphemon on
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VariableMouth CongressStroke Me Lady FameRegistered Userregular
See, this is what I was talking about from the thread before. Every time a player loses, people start talking mad shit about them. Sure, you might not like them, but have some fucking respect for them. You really think that Idra didn't know what he was doing with his broodlords? You really think that you know better than him? Or that he didn't want to end the game when he was ahead, especially when he hates protoss lategame?
Yeah, sometimes players just totally fall apart, but have some respect for their play at least. Know that they are as far removed from you as you are from a league below you.
Not to mention, MC didn't play anywhere near perfectly. He had a huge lead early-game with his stargate play, and he let Idra claw his way into a huge lead.
on the one hand I sort of agree
on the other hand, the idea that we can't say 'he misplaced those broodlords' or something like that it absolutely ridiculous
yes I think he could have done a better job keeping his brood lords alive. they were pretty important.
maybe you never watched sports but armchair quarterbacking is part and parcel with being a fan. we will first and second guess every decision and there's nothing wrong with that. the harsh criticisms though, I agree, are unnecessary. but it's not like they are so bad they should be outlawed.
Wow, so there are like a dozen armchair generals in here that evidently could outplay IdrA.
IdrA played great and MC stayed alive with FF spam until he could get the gold base up and running.
Maybe you haven't heard but protoss units are pretty strong and MC's micro is pretty good.
protoss op qq qq
Idra made big mistakes and MC played perfectly.
hahaha
idra almost won, mc was perfect?
by big mistakes do you mean 1 mistake? a big as hell mistake, bad positioning with 7 broodlords, but what other issues did you have?
I am doing homework right now and I didn't want to do a bullet point list of mistakes made by each player, fact is though that idra made a few key mistakes that lost him the game. He saced his broodlords to kill a few probes, then after that he brought in hydras stacked up eating storms and never moved them.
But you are totally right, Protoss is OP and idra had no chance.
Fizban140 on
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3cl1ps3I will build a labyrinth to house the cheeseRegistered Userregular
edited April 2011
Yeah Fizban this wasn't like "MC so perfect, IdrA so shitty." They both played it out really well but I think in general IdrA was actually playing better, except for the Broodlord mispositioning (so unfortunate >_<).
Unfortunately, PvZ is just a fucked matchup right now. P are dominating it hugely. PvT is somewhat better but P are still winning.
Basically Protoss are by far the strongest race right now. Some nerfs would not be unwarranted.
Although it is nice to be out of the ZOMG SO OP spotlight >.>
Oh and MC v. IdrA Game 1? Perfect proof that templar are not, in fact, useless without amulet.
3cl1ps3 on
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VariableMouth CongressStroke Me Lady FameRegistered Userregular
Wow, so there are like a dozen armchair generals in here that evidently could outplay IdrA.
IdrA played great and MC stayed alive with FF spam until he could get the gold base up and running.
Maybe you haven't heard but protoss units are pretty strong and MC's micro is pretty good.
protoss op qq qq
Idra made big mistakes and MC played perfectly.
hahaha
idra almost won, mc was perfect?
by big mistakes do you mean 1 mistake? a big as hell mistake, bad positioning with 7 broodlords, but what other issues did you have?
I am doing homework right now and I didn't want to do a bullet point list of mistakes made by each player, fact is though that idra made a few key mistakes that lost him the game. He saced his broodlords to kill a few probes, then after that he brought in hydras stacked up eating storms and never moved them.
But you are totally right, Protoss is OP and idra had no chance.
look man, whatever stick you have up your ass? I understand because I've played terran since the game came out.
but please try and read what I actually said, which had nothing to do with anything being OP. never said that -at all-.
what I said was the same thing you said. bad positioning at the end of the game. that's one huge mistake.
to see that and then decide that idra made lots of mistakes (when he in fact came back from a deficit) and that mc played "perfectly" (when he in fact blew an early lead) is stretching it a bit.
Ultra/fester was a lot stronger with the longer duration fungals.
815165 on
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Euphemonitsudemo sagashiteiruyodokka ni kimi no sugata woRegistered Userregular
edited April 2011
Yeah, I'm exaggerating a bit, but I have enough respect for Idra, especially in a late-game scenario, that he wouldn't toss the broodlords away for no reason. A straight-up engagement would have resulted in the same thing, perhaps he was trying to catch MC offguard, or to make a two-pronged attack. People going "herp derp idra" which we had, even in this supposedly sensible non-TLesque thread, are the worst sort of armchair quarterbacks.
I don't have a problem with criticism either, but, like I said, it just grinds my gears the wrong way when people went from having huge respect for all pro players in BW to what amounts to no respect in SC2. After every game you have people going "lol XXXX" etc.
Also, 815901278501245901284, totally agree again. The fungal needs to keep blink stalkers down, or the ultras can't do shit against them. And blink stalkers can kite ultras like MM kites ultras. Also, ultras are fucking terrible in large numbers because they're so big and slow they get in each others' way, so without fungal blink stalkers can kite them almost indefinitely, especially when abusing the terrain. Infestors help against that, but they need the long duration fungal, especially when it's so easy to pick them off so that they can only get one fungal. Lings help too, but lings are demolished by any sort of protoss AOE, not to mention, also get in the ultras' way because they block the ultras from attacking.
Euphemon on
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VariableMouth CongressStroke Me Lady FameRegistered Userregular
Yeah, I'm exaggerating a bit, but I have enough respect for Idra, especially in a late-game scenario, that he wouldn't toss the broodlords away for no reason. A straight-up engagement would have resulted in the same thing, perhaps he was trying to catch MC offguard, or to make a two-pronged attack. People going "herp derp idra" which we had, even in this supposedly sensible non-TLesque thread, are the worst sort of armchair quarterbacks.
I don't have a problem with criticism either, but, like I said, it just grinds my gears the wrong way when people went from having huge respect for all pro players in BW to what amounts to no respect in SC2. After every game you have people going "lol XXXX" etc.
okay, I think we pretty much agree
because yeah his brood plan was sound. you send them at the gold. they just weren't as protected as they needed to be in that position. so then he was forced to run his hydras in as interference and they got destroyed.
Yesterday I ran into a really scary ultra/bane/infestor end game scenario. My army just disappeared.
yeah I could swear ultras are good vP exept immortals. but everyone always says hive tech is bad, period, so idk.
broods I understand are dangerous because P has blink by that point
Honestly, no hyperbole- ultra/infestor is pretty good against protoss until they remember that zealots hardcounter your expensive high tech micro-intensive combo.
p.s. - This is why my eyes glaze over Fizban posts, you can usually count on him for exaggerated angry rants speaking about subjects outside his personal experience.
don't let idra be a fucking martyr. this is ridiculous. he gave up. i've done it. he's done it before. many other people have done it. he just gave up before it was over. he didn't prove any point. don't let him be a fucking zvp martyr.
Yesterday I ran into a really scary ultra/bane/infestor end game scenario. My army just disappeared.
yeah I could swear ultras are good vP exept immortals. but everyone always says hive tech is bad, period, so idk.
broods I understand are dangerous because P has blink by that point
Honestly, no hyperbole- ultra/infestor is pretty good against protoss until they remember that zealots hardcounter your expensive high tech micro-intense combo.
p.s. - This is why my eyes glaze over Fizban posts, you can usually count on him for exaggerated angry rants speaking about subjects outside his personal experience.
ah right! zealots. I always forget that.
remember when on sotg they used to complain about zealots? that pissed me off to no end. I think it's becoming clear, now, how valuable they are. even before the speed buff.
don't let idra be a fucking martyr. this is ridiculous. he gave up. i've done it. he's done it before. many other people have done it. he just gave up before it was over. he didn't prove any point. don't let him be a fucking zvp martyr.
Eh, I'm not trolling. I wish fizban would tone down the anger / exaggeration, it's not like I'm personally insulting him.
Now that you mention it Sceptre, ultra/infestor could be pretty scary with lots of banes to deal with the zealots. Though it seems like they'd need a huge econ advantage to afford all of that, but it would definitely be a scary combo.
kedinik on
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Euphemonitsudemo sagashiteiruyodokka ni kimi no sugata woRegistered Userregular
edited April 2011
Not sure what that has to do with what Tyler's saying there...
I agree with Tyler though, if Idra played to his best, he might have won a map, like Morrow. There was nothing martyr-ish about his actions. But at the same time, I can still totally understand why he 6pooled. Playing ZvP is like slamming your head into the wall. It's, imo, the least interesting matchup to watch as well. At least PvP is micro war, and ZvZ can have every unit Z has being made. ZvP in its current state is just boring.
If I am coming off as offensive or exagerating I don't mean to be, I just don't take the time to properly word my posts and read how they sound. I am doing homework now and don't have a lot of time. I really shouldn't be watching all these tournaments they are killing my study time.
Anyways I don't mean to be a dick to anyone, but saying someone lost because a races units are too strong is wrong. It is just plain wrong. They lost for decision the player made, not because of some balance issue.
I am a really laid back person and I don't really get angry often, if I do I keep it to myself.
Fizban140 on
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VariableMouth CongressStroke Me Lady FameRegistered Userregular
If I am coming off as offensive or exagerating I don't mean to be, I just don't take the time to properly word my posts and read how they sound. I am doing homework now and don't have a lot of time. I really shouldn't be watching all these tournaments they are killing my study time.
Anyways I don't mean to be a dick to anyone, but saying someone lost because a races units are too strong is wrong. It is just plain wrong. They lost for decision the player made, not because of some balance issue.
Anyways I don't mean to be a dick to anyone, but saying someone lost because a races units are too strong is wrong. It is just plain wrong. They lost for decision the player made, not because of some balance issue.
Incorrect. Ruling out balance as a reason is wrong simply because the game is less than a year old so there's no way that it is "balanced" yet. Just like most things, both extremes of the balance argument are wrong and the truth lies in the middle with some things that need tweaks and some players needing to change their play styles to accommodate the game.
(I like how my mean post is sandwiched between two posts. ^_^)
Kambing on
@TwitchTV, @Youtube: master-level zerg ladder/customs, commentary, and random miscellany.
I was rooting for Idra, I like him as a player and a person, he just either trolls or has a bad temper or both, not sure which but I like watching him play. Anyways I just think in discussing a tournament you shouldn't bring up unit balance, that is something outside the confines of the tournament, out of the players control. What was in their control are their actions, so you judge them on that.
Balance discussion is fine I think but it just isn't productive when discussing a tournament.
I don't dislike anyone in this thread, but if I did it would be Dhal.
IdrA has frequently said that Shakuras is an impossible map to beat a Protoss on once they get their third up and running. He probably wanted to win the first map and try to scrape out a win on the second. Once he lost the first, he knew he didn't stand a chance.
MC seemed to completely snooker him. The timing MC had was perfect. He sees nothing but corrupter and mass hydra. He techs to temps with storm and produces a handful of colossus, knowing that the corrupters will be morphed soon, and moves forward just as Idra had morphed his broodlords in and was left with very few corrupters. Idra maxed on broodlords and mass hydra with a few corrupters and MC now has a handful of colossus with high temps just having finished storm and a bunch of stalkers. Then MC catches Idra in a good position and it is no surprise who won.
MC played the last 5 minutes perfectly. Idra had a timing before temps and colossus that he didn't capitalize on, and MC managed to delay Idra until the timing window was over. GG.
Probably sums it up perfectly. MC delayed Idra's timing push with the warp in harass long enough to get colossus, HT. Bad positioning compounded the issue. Would have been nice to actually watch a 2nd game that didn't end in 5-10 mins though.
I think the hate was more for Idra's defeatist 6 pool, and the knowledge that he'll no doubt be crying imba in no time
Seemed to be quite a few posts basically all saying "what a stupid goddamn noob! he lost to blink stalkers, ht's and colossi that caught him out of position".
Which reads in my mind with iNcontrol's angry-internet-guy voice.
But whatever, IdrA's always going to have a lot of haters pretty much no matter what he does. And to be fair he's an inflammatory personality.
kedinik on
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Euphemonitsudemo sagashiteiruyodokka ni kimi no sugata woRegistered Userregular
edited April 2011
I agree, mostly, but I think that there's a bit too much oversimplification. Idra wanted to hit that timing as well, but against a defensive protoss, it's hard to just "hit" a timing because of how well they can defend and delay. Yeah, he was ahead, and yeah, he should have done some damage, but it's really hard to trade cost-effectively, let alone finish the game. I think a doomdrop could have helped a lot, but it's hard to say how MC would have reacted.
Yeah, exactly, Ked. And holy shit White-ra is the bomb. Looks like White-ra might get his revenge against MC for TSL!
IdrA throws away 3-4 queens a few ovies and some drones vs a phoenix opening... has MC on the ropes but then stops attacking...
IdrA gets 7 bl's and sticks his army in a choke spot and dies easily "PVZ IMBALANCED!"
MC had 0 defenses at both his 3rd/4th. IdrA took a late 4th / never corrupted after killing the Collo in the first fight and didn't scout expansions. Late on infesters as well. Had he waited for infesters and massed some bl's while harrassing the expos with lings or something he'd be fine and that is ONLY after him NOT throwing 4 base of production into 2 collo (idra had corruptors out) and 5 stalkers...
The thing that pisses me off the most though is that OK so you make a mistake at the end and it costs you the game.. why give up on game 2? You had him on the ropes like 3 separate times EVEN IF you want to argue "I can't win!" you at least came REALLY REALLY close vs the best fucking protoss on the planet... what more do you want? Give game 2 a try jesus
(I'm not directing these at anyone here, i just think pro opinions are interesting. TL live thread is unsurprisingly full of every extreme of whine)
Posts
also early game and mid game
protoss op qq qq
Idra made big mistakes and MC played perfectly.
hahaha
idra almost won, mc was perfect?
by big mistakes do you mean 1 mistake? a big as hell mistake, bad positioning with 7 broodlords, but what other issues did you have?
Yeah, sometimes players just totally fall apart, but have some respect for their play at least. Know that they are as far removed from you as you are from a league below you.
Not to mention, MC didn't play anywhere near perfectly. He had a huge lead early-game with his stargate play, and he let Idra claw his way into a huge lead.
on the one hand I sort of agree
on the other hand, the idea that we can't say 'he misplaced those broodlords' or something like that it absolutely ridiculous
yes I think he could have done a better job keeping his brood lords alive. they were pretty important.
maybe you never watched sports but armchair quarterbacking is part and parcel with being a fan. we will first and second guess every decision and there's nothing wrong with that. the harsh criticisms though, I agree, are unnecessary. but it's not like they are so bad they should be outlawed.
But you are totally right, Protoss is OP and idra had no chance.
Unfortunately, PvZ is just a fucked matchup right now. P are dominating it hugely. PvT is somewhat better but P are still winning.
Basically Protoss are by far the strongest race right now. Some nerfs would not be unwarranted.
Although it is nice to be out of the ZOMG SO OP spotlight >.>
Oh and MC v. IdrA Game 1? Perfect proof that templar are not, in fact, useless without amulet.
yeah I could swear ultras are good vP exept immortals. but everyone always says hive tech is bad, period, so idk.
broods I understand are dangerous because P has blink by that point
look man, whatever stick you have up your ass? I understand because I've played terran since the game came out.
but please try and read what I actually said, which had nothing to do with anything being OP. never said that -at all-.
what I said was the same thing you said. bad positioning at the end of the game. that's one huge mistake.
to see that and then decide that idra made lots of mistakes (when he in fact came back from a deficit) and that mc played "perfectly" (when he in fact blew an early lead) is stretching it a bit.
I don't have a problem with criticism either, but, like I said, it just grinds my gears the wrong way when people went from having huge respect for all pro players in BW to what amounts to no respect in SC2. After every game you have people going "lol XXXX" etc.
Also, 815901278501245901284, totally agree again. The fungal needs to keep blink stalkers down, or the ultras can't do shit against them. And blink stalkers can kite ultras like MM kites ultras. Also, ultras are fucking terrible in large numbers because they're so big and slow they get in each others' way, so without fungal blink stalkers can kite them almost indefinitely, especially when abusing the terrain. Infestors help against that, but they need the long duration fungal, especially when it's so easy to pick them off so that they can only get one fungal. Lings help too, but lings are demolished by any sort of protoss AOE, not to mention, also get in the ultras' way because they block the ultras from attacking.
okay, I think we pretty much agree
because yeah his brood plan was sound. you send them at the gold. they just weren't as protected as they needed to be in that position. so then he was forced to run his hydras in as interference and they got destroyed.
Honestly, no hyperbole- ultra/infestor is pretty good against protoss until they remember that zealots hardcounter your expensive high tech micro-intensive combo.
p.s. - This is why my eyes glaze over Fizban posts, you can usually count on him for exaggerated angry rants speaking about subjects outside his personal experience.
PSN: Robo_Wizard1
ah right! zealots. I always forget that.
remember when on sotg they used to complain about zealots? that pissed me off to no end. I think it's becoming clear, now, how valuable they are. even before the speed buff.
This is getting stupid.
This post is a bout Tyler and how right he always is. Even when he is wrong.
And MC CRUSHED Tyler.
Now that you mention it Sceptre, ultra/infestor could be pretty scary with lots of banes to deal with the zealots. Though it seems like they'd need a huge econ advantage to afford all of that, but it would definitely be a scary combo.
I agree with Tyler though, if Idra played to his best, he might have won a map, like Morrow. There was nothing martyr-ish about his actions. But at the same time, I can still totally understand why he 6pooled. Playing ZvP is like slamming your head into the wall. It's, imo, the least interesting matchup to watch as well. At least PvP is micro war, and ZvZ can have every unit Z has being made. ZvP in its current state is just boring.
Anyways I don't mean to be a dick to anyone, but saying someone lost because a races units are too strong is wrong. It is just plain wrong. They lost for decision the player made, not because of some balance issue.
I am a really laid back person and I don't really get angry often, if I do I keep it to myself.
nice post fizban, appreciated.
now get to studying!
Incorrect. Ruling out balance as a reason is wrong simply because the game is less than a year old so there's no way that it is "balanced" yet. Just like most things, both extremes of the balance argument are wrong and the truth lies in the middle with some things that need tweaks and some players needing to change their play styles to accommodate the game.
(I like how my mean post is sandwiched between two
I didn't mean to come off as PROTOSS OP OMG IDRA WAS ROBBED.
IdrA had a big window to apply pressure and win but he allowed MC to claw his way back into the game.
I was more just trying to say that I didn't understand all the hate he was getting for losing against someone who also played really well.
they don't it be like it is but it do
Balance discussion is fine I think but it just isn't productive when discussing a tournament.
I don't dislike anyone in this thread, but if I did it would be Dhal.
PSN: Robo_Wizard1
Probably sums it up perfectly. MC delayed Idra's timing push with the warp in harass long enough to get colossus, HT. Bad positioning compounded the issue. Would have been nice to actually watch a 2nd game that didn't end in 5-10 mins though.
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Seemed to be quite a few posts basically all saying "what a stupid goddamn noob! he lost to blink stalkers, ht's and colossi that caught him out of position".
Which reads in my mind with iNcontrol's angry-internet-guy voice.
But whatever, IdrA's always going to have a lot of haters pretty much no matter what he does. And to be fair he's an inflammatory personality.
Yeah, exactly, Ked. And holy shit White-ra is the bomb. Looks like White-ra might get his revenge against MC for TSL!
(I'm not directing these at anyone here, i just think pro opinions are interesting. TL live thread is unsurprisingly full of every extreme of whine)
PSN: Robo_Wizard1
God willing White-Ra has developed special tactics to get revenge for all of those death-by-4-gates that he suffered against Korean pros lately.