[Mega Man-ish Thread] They Call Him 'Azure Striker' Because He's Azure!

Henroid

The latter timeline is the one I don't give a shit about. I haven't played Battle Network.

turtleant

I like Battle Network, though some entries are much better than others, but that series definitely got over saturated fast. I really need to get around to playing a Starforce game some time.

Houn

Henroid wrote:

Houn wrote:

There's nothing wrong with the core Mega Man gameplay formula. Pick level, beat level, get boss' power. The problem comes from the packaging of that formula.

Original Series: Difficulty curve too high for modern gamers. Continuing it only sells to a niche market.
X: Bogged down in successive layers of anime bullcrap. Continuing this series is hard to pull in anyone not already following the story.
MMZ: Was hella fun, I have nothing negative to say about it.
MMXZ: Never finished the first one, just didn't grab my attention.

I'd argue that maybe we need a "new" Mega Man, but there's already too many of them. They do need to find a way to present a fresh package without any of the story baggage attached to it. Maybe it's time for a reboot, throw out all established cannon?

I kinda have an issue with your description of the X series. I would say the first 3 games were exploring Mega Man as a more serious game series. It wasn't until MMX4 that the anime shit got jammed in. I don't mean literally, I mean in terms of 'story progression' and the writing of lines characters say, their reactions to things, etc. But until that point, X, X2, and X3 were goddamn tremendous games and the setting was great. The only time I've been pleased as shit with the 'anime' injected was Maverick Hunter X, and I haven't even played it first hand, I've only seen videos and shit. They actually put effort into it without trying to change any of the tone.

The Zero series started out REALLY fucking hard, holy christ that first game. It was unforgiving and felt like a throwback, in that sense, to the NES games. Then Z2 and Z3 took the difficulty down quite a bit. As a setting, it was really fucking awesome, up until I found out about what happened with the X series interfering with it, and they had to change the story the Z series was going on and then just kill the shit out of it. I really liked the persistent characters in it. Anime bullshit, but not as... happy-sunshine as the X series devolved into? Hard to explain.

ZX is definitely anime bullshit, but I haven't played ZXA to see if it continues. And by the way, when I say "anime bullshit," it doesn't mean I hate it or dislike it, I'm just saying it is what it is.

Spoiler trimmed. I agree 100% with what you said about the X series. 1-3 were fantastic. 4 was fun to play, but that's when the anime story bullshit (and by this, I mean really bad cliche anime story bullshit) began. To continue the X series at this point, the story would "pick up" after all that bullshit. I don't want a whiny pacifist X. I don't want Zero hiding in a capsule. I don't want Axl period.

I just want a bad ass robot to tear up the future bad guys.

Henroid

Houn wrote:

Henroid wrote:

Houn wrote:

There's nothing wrong with the core Mega Man gameplay formula. Pick level, beat level, get boss' power. The problem comes from the packaging of that formula.

Original Series: Difficulty curve too high for modern gamers. Continuing it only sells to a niche market.
X: Bogged down in successive layers of anime bullcrap. Continuing this series is hard to pull in anyone not already following the story.
MMZ: Was hella fun, I have nothing negative to say about it.
MMXZ: Never finished the first one, just didn't grab my attention.

I'd argue that maybe we need a "new" Mega Man, but there's already too many of them. They do need to find a way to present a fresh package without any of the story baggage attached to it. Maybe it's time for a reboot, throw out all established cannon?

I kinda have an issue with your description of the X series. I would say the first 3 games were exploring Mega Man as a more serious game series. It wasn't until MMX4 that the anime shit got jammed in. I don't mean literally, I mean in terms of 'story progression' and the writing of lines characters say, their reactions to things, etc. But until that point, X, X2, and X3 were goddamn tremendous games and the setting was great. The only time I've been pleased as shit with the 'anime' injected was Maverick Hunter X, and I haven't even played it first hand, I've only seen videos and shit. They actually put effort into it without trying to change any of the tone.

The Zero series started out REALLY fucking hard, holy christ that first game. It was unforgiving and felt like a throwback, in that sense, to the NES games. Then Z2 and Z3 took the difficulty down quite a bit. As a setting, it was really fucking awesome, up until I found out about what happened with the X series interfering with it, and they had to change the story the Z series was going on and then just kill the shit out of it. I really liked the persistent characters in it. Anime bullshit, but not as... happy-sunshine as the X series devolved into? Hard to explain.

ZX is definitely anime bullshit, but I haven't played ZXA to see if it continues. And by the way, when I say "anime bullshit," it doesn't mean I hate it or dislike it, I'm just saying it is what it is.

Spoiler trimmed. I agree 100% with what you said about the X series. 1-3 were fantastic. 4 was fun to play, but that's when the anime story bullshit (and by this, I mean really bad cliche anime story bullshit) began. To continue the X series at this point, the story would "pick up" after all that bullshit. I don't want a whiny pacifist X. I don't want Zero hiding in a capsule. I don't want Axl period.

I just want a bad ass robot to tear up the future bad guys.

8->

Pureauthor

I think my disgust and disappointment with Capcom have been building up long enough that I didn't really feel anything in response to this news. As a Legends fan, having my chain yanked is nothing new.

Still, obligatory 'Fuck you, Capcom. And your stupid new DmC too.'

Kyanbu

Was sad to see this die. Was even more sad because I was among the group of fans that just knew this was going to happen for months now.

I'd like to say this isn't the first time MML3 got shot down and that there's always next but... I don't know, with infune gone it just doesn't seem like good old megaman in general is coming back anytime soon.

Found this on GameFaqs.
http://www.capcom-unity.com/classic_megaman/blog/2011/07/19/letter_to_capcom:_megaman_legends_3

Not sure what good it'll do spreading this around but. Maybe doing so will help me sleep better tonight.

Fig-D

Unfortunately I kinda feel like the consumer has trained Capcom to work in this manner.

A lot of the great stuff that Capcom develops or produces just doesn't sell all that well.

Take Mega Man Legends 2 for example. Better in every way compared to its predecessor (in my opinion). Didn't sell all that well in the US. Sold decently in Japan (88,131 by the end of its release year).

Fast forward to 2005; Capcom ports MML2 to the PSP in Japan. Sells about 13k for the year. Doesn't even crack the Top 500 for sales that year. Granted, it was released in April on the PSOne and September on the PSP, but they were testing the waters for the series and based on those numbers they backed off. Five years later, there still isn't really a lot of "demand" for MML3. There are fans, sure, but the install base for the 3DS is smaller that what many projected and Capcom, as a business, is afraid to release a niche game in a bad market.

That's not to say that they haven't made other questionable decisions lately (the previously mentioned DmC comes to mind), but Capcom is still willing to put interesting new IPs into the market. See: Dragon's Dogma and Asura's Wrath. That's more than I can say for some companies.

Kyanbu

I didn't even know the MML2 PSP port over in japan sold poorly. Yeah that would explain why that happened. Though a lot people still feel that the 3DS not selling as well as planned may have had something to do with it too.

Rakai

MML2 sold 150k in the US. First one did more than double that though. The thing is, the whole point of the prototype was to test the waters. It was a digital release so there would be no distribution costs. If the prototype sold poorly or was poorly received, they would have an excuse to tell the fans that supported them. As it stands they just used their dedicated fans and then brushed them aside and gave them a bullshit PR line. The question that everyone one has is 'what do they have to lose by releasing the prototype at this point?'. Either you're completely open with the reason it got canned or you release it. Anything less just turns people against you. If they didn't involve the fans it would be a different story but they did and now they need to own up to it.

Fig-D

Digital releases still have distribution costs. There's a cost associated with putting that prototype up too. And if the prototype is unfinished (which it seems to be), why pay a team of employees to work on part of a game that is officially cancelled and without a producer/major creative force?

chiasaur11

turtleant wrote:

Yeah the megaman timeline is basically

Wily and Light begin research ----> Wily's robot research is funded---->Dr. Light is framed for the murder of the woman he loves, leaving him broken and the city primed for Wily's takeover ---->Protoman is built---->Protoman apparently dies, but is rebuilt by Wily---->Classic --->Megaman becomes disillusioned with mankind after fight to the death with Protoman, protesters killed ----> X---> Zero---> ZX---> big time skip ---> Legends

Just filling in some timeline details.

Jam Warrior

Ususally I'd say companies don't owe fans anything and have to think about profit as number one priority. But the way that they involved the fans so deeply in this project, it's awful PR if nothing else to just cut them off like this with nothing to show.

korodullin

chiasaur11 wrote:

turtleant wrote:

Yeah the megaman timeline is basically

Wily and Light begin research ----> Wily's robot research is funded---->Dr. Light is framed for the murder of the woman he loves, leaving him broken and the city primed for Wily's takeover ---->Protoman is built---->Protoman apparently dies, but is rebuilt by Wily---->Classic --->Megaman becomes disillusioned with mankind after fight to the death with Protoman, protesters killed ----> X---> Zero---> ZX---> big time skip ---> Legends

Just filling in some timeline details.

What.

chiasaur11

korodullin wrote:

chiasaur11 wrote:

turtleant wrote:

Yeah the megaman timeline is basically

Wily and Light begin research ----> Wily's robot research is funded---->Dr. Light is framed for the murder of the woman he loves, leaving him broken and the city primed for Wily's takeover ---->Protoman is built---->Protoman apparently dies, but is rebuilt by Wily---->Classic --->Megaman becomes disillusioned with mankind after fight to the death with Protoman, protesters killed ----> X---> Zero---> ZX---> big time skip ---> Legends

Just filling in some timeline details.

What.

Ah. One of those jokes you think is obvious and isn't.

Alright, so. There's this band, the Protomen. Megaman rock opera.

Plot flips towards the downbeat. Figured most folks here had heard of, and I was being obvious enough with the reference. Obviously, I was wrong on one count or another.

They're pretty good. Worth a listen sometime.

Matthew

I'm pretty sure the only place we'll find any decent Megaman in the future is through Archie comics (I really hope though that they aren't making him a whiny Pacifist, which is something I worry about).

Henroid

chiasaur11 wrote:

turtleant wrote:

Yeah the megaman timeline is basically

Wily and Light begin research ----> Wily's robot research is funded---->Dr. Light is framed for the murder of the woman he loves, leaving him broken and the city primed for Wily's takeover ---->Protoman is built---->Protoman apparently dies, but is rebuilt by Wily---->Classic --->Megaman becomes disillusioned with mankind after fight to the death with Protoman, protesters killed ----> X---> Zero---> ZX---> big time skip ---> Legends

Just filling in some timeline details.

You forgot about Joe.

LBD_Nytetrayn

Houn wrote:

There's nothing wrong with the core Mega Man gameplay formula. Pick level, beat level, get boss' power. The problem comes from the packaging of that formula.

I think that is part of the problem. Specifically the way that they are still trying to sell new games with as much content as the NES games at retail. They really need to evolve the formula more.

Of course, Mega Man Legends was a good one for retail in its own right, and I honestly think it would go over better today than when they were releasing it against Zelda: OoT, MGS, RE, and Tomb Raider (right after X4 and MM8, no less), or releasing the sequel at the same time as the PlayStation 2 was launched.

Then again, no re-releases of the originals in any way, shape, or form cannot have helped Legends' cause, either.

turtleant wrote:

Yeah the megaman timeline is basically

Wily and Light begin research ----> Wily's robot research is funded----> Classic---> X---> Zero---> ZX---> big time skip ---> Legends
OR
Wily and Light begin research ----> Lights internet research is funded---> Battle Network---> Starforce

I feel like I'm walking right into this one, but Wily's robot research wasn't funded. He was actually banished from the scientific community...

...what? I sort of need to know this stuff. :P

---

And if anyone is interested, here is my response to the whole shebang. It's a tad long, and there are lots of pretty pictures, so I hope you don't mind me just linking.

Incidentally, Capcom should have just moved it to the Wii and focused on a North American release. They could come right in and scoop up all the customers Nintendo left behind in Operation: Rainfall.

urahonky

I have to agree that most Megaman games are difficult. I'm a very sore loser and I have a hard time purchasing megaman games unless some buddies are over. I played the demo for MM9 and 10 and I'm glad I didn't buy them... I got my ass handed to me. But I don't have the timing I used to have.

RockinX

Once you get used to the games, they become more forgiving.

Houn

Yeah, never question LBD on Mega Man cannon.

Though I still maintain that Zero is a fire truck.

urahonky

RockinX wrote:

Once you get used to the games, they become more forgiving.

Used to play them all the time. Could only finish them (as a kid) using the Game Genie. Come to think of it I don't think I've ever actually finished a Megaman game. I usually get to Wily's castle or something like that and quit because of bullshit.

RockinX

urahonky wrote:

RockinX wrote:

Once you get used to the games, they become more forgiving.

Used to play them all the time. Could only finish them (as a kid) using the Game Genie. Come to think of it I don't think I've ever actually finished a Megaman game. I usually get to Wily's castle or something like that and quit because of bullshit.

Well, I don't know what to tell you about that. When I was a kid I used to rent MM2, 3 and 4 (the only ones available) all the time and wasn't able to finish them. I think the first one I actually beat was MMX1 later. It was only after I was 10 or 11 that I could finish MM2.

More related to the MML3 cancellation:

http://www.gamesetwatch.com/2011/07/a_day_in_mega_man_legends_3_wi.php?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed:+gamesetwatch+(GameSetWatch)&utm_content=Twitter

People edited Wikipedia's MML3 entry a lot. I was actually able to take a screenshot of one the edits and had a lot of laughs after such terrible news. Imagine Gabe Newell as the composer!

Unknown

This content has been removed.

Hexmage-PA

HappylilElf wrote:

Meh, to me Mega Man canon is like Zelda canon in that I'm always shocked there are people who view it as a thing worthy of consideration

Mega Man canon is a lot (A LOT) more coherent than Zelda's. Although, honestly, the canon only really pays off in the Zero series.

JaysonFour wrote:

Megaman games aren't that difficult- you might have some trial and error to figure out what weapons work where, but they're not fucking impossible.

You've never played the Zero series, then. The first one has a vertical corridor of spikes that you have to wall jump up through, with only small safe zones to land in.

Henroid wrote:

The latter timeline is the one I don't give a shit about. I haven't played Battle Network.

You should give it a go. It's pretty fun, with an innovative and fast-paced battle system (that also evolved as the series went on). The first three are great (although the extra content at the end of the third game is insanely difficult), the fourth isn't so great, the fifth is a bit better than the fourth (and introduces a war game-like Liberation Mode that is pretty enjoyable), and the sixth is just as good as the first three (with probably the best iteration of the battle system in the entire series).

LBD_Nytetrayn wrote:

Houn wrote:

There's nothing wrong with the core Mega Man gameplay formula. Pick level, beat level, get boss' power. The problem comes from the packaging of that formula.

I think that is part of the problem. Specifically the way that they are still trying to sell new games with as much content as the NES games at retail. They really need to evolve the formula more.

The more I think about it, the more I appreciate the Zero series (and, to a lesser extent, the ZX series).

The Zero series wasn't afraid to dispense with the regular formula and innovate from game to game. Many of the missions had other goals than just defeating a boss (for example, entering a factory undetected, destroying a mechaniloid before it reached your base, or protecting someone from waves of enemies). You didn't earn stuff just for beating the boss: If you wanted to unlock a power-up without being penalized for it or learn how to absorb life energy through your bitchin' energy whip then you had to earn it by avoiding damage, killing enemies, and clearing a stage as fast as possible.

The ZX series had a neat concept (switching between alternate forms to find the one best suited for a certain situation), but the execution wasn't that great. For example, there needed to be more dark areas that required using Phantom's form to navigate. Most of the time you were best off remaining in Zero's form (or better yet, X's, if you unlocked it), which shouldn't have been the case.

Brainiac 8

Yea, the Zero series was where the actual continuity paid off for people.

Megamaniaco

What's this talk about people not being able to finish MM2? Come on folks, we can't have that kind of stuff and still consider us fans! Play it again. And again. Eventually it's doable.

Same thing happened to me with the Batman game for NES and I managed to finish it 10 years after I started playing it, altough it was in an emulator. BTW, that game had a badass OST, as good as some MM tracks.

Artoria

I'm extremely sad to hear about MML3 being canceled. I was going to buy the 3DS for this.

this is a bad year to be a MM fan. First Universe gets canceled now MML3. Regardless of the FAQ that was posted over on Capcom-unity I really think that we may be seeing the last of MM as Capcom has pretty much abandoned the franchise.

SightTDW

The PSP ports of MML1 and 2 in Japan were lazy pre-PSOne Classics ports with a screwed up aspect ratio and no options to change it.

They didn't sell for a reason. Shame Capcom assumes that reason is lack of interest.

Part of me hopes the Legends 3 devs all run off together with Inafune and have some magical adventures. Of course, by magical adventures I mean make a spiritual successor to Legends. I want a new third person shooter sci-fi Zelda, while I rather liked it when that had Mega Man written on it, I can make do.

Xenogear_0001

Megamaniaco wrote:

What's this talk about people not being able to finish MM2? Come on folks, we can't have that kind of stuff and still consider us fans! Play it again. And again. Eventually it's doable.

Same thing happened to me with the Batman game for NES and I managed to finish it 10 years after I started playing it, altough it was in an emulator. BTW, that game had a badass OST, as good as some MM tracks.

YES. Glad I'm not the only one who remembered that punishingly difficult game. Had some elements of Ninja Gaiden, IIRC.

RockinX

Megamaniaco wrote:

What's this talk about people not being able to finish MM2? Come on folks, we can't have that kind of stuff and still consider us fans! Play it again. And again. Eventually it's doable.

Same thing happened to me with the Batman game for NES and I managed to finish it 10 years after I started playing it, altough it was in an emulator. BTW, that game had a badass OST, as good as some MM tracks.

Dude, the Batman game is another level of difficulty. The boss before the Joker is hard enough, and then the Joker is too much.

Megamaniaco

@Xenogear_0001 & @RockinX

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lWNnfjVfCK0

Back on topic, I never liked the ML series, so I'm not that sad about the news.
What amazes me is stuff like that korean MM Online game. I mean, fuckin Korea? They're too busy pwning noobz at SC2 to bother with a MM MMO!
We want in too

Ragnar Dragonfyre

I still have the original cart of that Batman game... we're talking about the NES game based on the first Tim Burton Batman movie, right?

Megamaniaco

Ragnar Dragonfyre wrote:

I still have the original cart of that Batman game... we're talking about the NES game based on the first Tim Burton Batman movie, right?

Indeed we are. That bitch was tough as hell.

Rakai

Apparently the new version of MvC has a MML stage in it...Capcom has gone from trolling to outright mocking at this point.

Warlock82

Rakai wrote:

Apparently the new version of MvC has a MML stage in it...Capcom has gone from trolling to outright mocking at this point.

I bet still no Mega Man tho :P

Rakai

Warlock82 wrote:

Rakai wrote:

Apparently the new version of MvC has a MML stage in it...Capcom has gone from trolling to outright mocking at this point.

I bet still no Mega Man tho :P

You would win that bet. The list has been leaked and he isn't on it.

skeldare

Rakai wrote:

Apparently the new version of MvC has a MML stage in it...Capcom has gone from trolling to outright mocking at this point.

Could be more based around Tron Bonne though, but who knows.

Henroid

So wait a second, is Capcom really just like, "No more Mega Man ever" literally, or is that something being inferred?

Warlock82

Henroid wrote:

So wait a second, is Capcom really just like, "No more Mega Man ever" literally, or is that something being inferred?

I swear to God since Inafune left they have been snubbing Mega Man. It still baffles the hell out of me that they wouldn't include what is essentially their mascot in MvC3.

Riokenn

It was suppose to be MY world. MEGAFIED.