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TL;DR I didn't detect this guy's cheese and it failed horribly (like, wasn't even close to success) anyway.
So I've mainly been working on nailing my build order to the neglect of pretty much everything else. Spent all yesterday figuring out the optimal way to do everything down to the little details like when I put my probes in gas. (It's an aggressive 3gate opening into early pressure and early expand, then transition into robo.)
Now, I'm just trying to pound it into my head in real games until I get to the point where it is automatic.
As a result, I didn't even 9 scout and wasn't paying close attention to what was going on, and didn't detect this guy's cheese...
...until I was already pushing into his base.
Epic cheese failure.
OremLK on
My zombie survival life simulator They Don't Sleep is out now on Steam if you want to check it out.
So fucking sick of PvZ it is such a hard fucking match up for me at my level.
I just don't know how to play it at all, they always coutner me because it feels like protoss is in such a submissive position to start the game with.
I'm not exactly super-awesome at PvZ (or PvT or PvP) myself, but it helps if you think about your opponent's goals and how to funnel them towards your own goals instead. For example, a Zerg is inclined to expand as early as is feasible. Your initial goal is to prevent that and divert them into unit production as much as feasibly possible, hopefully while expanding yourself (but this isn't critical). So you want to:
1) 9 scout--you must do this because the other extreme is for a one-base all-in.
2) When you find them, check for expansion. If not there, check for pool.
- If you see a pool, determine the timing of it (early? Normal?) and retreat to the expansion.
- If you don't, get back to the expansion to block it.
3) Did you block it?
- Yes: \o/ Good, you're forcing them to either expand very far away or make units.
- No: <o_ That's okay. Scout again, make a cannon behind the expo, expo yourself.
- They're not even trying: <o> If they haven't tried to even send lings out by 20 food, scout and prepare for a ling/roach all-in (about 75% of the time).
When you don't block or cannon the expo, I imagine that you're facing a lot of Spanishiwa-type openings (no gas, two bases, lots of queens and spines with slowlings if you pressure). I won't lie; this is really hard to deal with. The solution is most generally a) take an earlier third, as he won't be making enough units to seriously threaten it; b) go templar tech <bleh> to deal with the inevitable infestors, c) make sure you deny him a third and the free T3 tech-switching it provides.
So fucking sick of PvZ it is such a hard fucking match up for me at my level.
I just don't know how to play it at all, they always coutner me because it feels like protoss is in such a submissive position to start the game with.
You should show us replays.
I'm really starting to work on attempting to macro up some, even though I ALWAYS lose if I macro up. I've been trying something like three gate expand. I just get out unit'd, but I think that's something I'll figure out as I keep trying. I need to build more production buildings and tech structures, and my macro goes totally to shit in any battle, which is super magnified with two or three bases. I also need to try to pressure and scout more when macroing.
The problem is people in platinum just build whatever the fuck the feel like, for example I saw a 12 pool so I thought it was fast agression so laid down gate and chronoed out a zealot early. Then I go down to his expansion and he expanded...so I expand then he comes in with 12 roaches.
It was released at $50, not $60 IIRC. I don't think Blizz has ever released a $60 PC game. Also it's $40 on Amazon for a while now.
Edit: Woops guess I was wrong. $60 at release, no longer $40 at Amazon. I got lucky and only paid about $34 at release, though.
Blizzard expansion pack prices are $40. Blizzard's retail game prices have been $60 since Diablo 2 back in 2000.
Lilnoobs on
0
tuxkamenreally took this picture.Registered Userregular
edited May 2011
If you see a *12* pool, you shouldn't react any differently than normal. You should only emergency react if the pool is done, or almost done, by the time you get there (taking travel time into account).
In that case, I would have tried to stick around with my scout to see if the roach warren was put down while adding more one-base units. (And also to see if he suddenly overreacts to your probe! Whenever I see no expansion, go back in, and have half a dozen drones try to catch me, I know that roaches or banes are coming.) An early mass of roaches means he isn't saturating that second base but rather using it for more larvae, and your saturated single base would have been even enough in economy with his for you to fight the units off and expand yourself. That many roaches early does suck against an early expansion of course, but if you see the warren early enough while on one base, you can get a robo out and go immo/obs to stuff any burrow play.
I feel the pain of early 2-base roach with speed/burrow against 3-gate expand, though. It's very rough if they just stutter-spit through your FFs.
So fucking sick of PvZ it is such a hard fucking match up for me at my level.
I just don't know how to play it at all, they always coutner me because it feels like protoss is in such a submissive position to start the game with.
You should show us replays.
I'm really starting to work on attempting to macro up some, even though I ALWAYS lose if I macro up. I've been trying something like three gate expand. I just get out unit'd, but I think that's something I'll figure out as I keep trying. I need to build more production buildings and tech structures, and my macro goes totally to shit in any battle, which is super magnified with two or three bases. I also need to try to pressure and scout more when macroing.
It's just so damn difficult.
It's incredible how much more you can squeeze out of your build when you dedicate yourself to refining it. I was doing a basic Protoss 3gate opening, keeping my money low, not getting supply blocked, constant probe production, not doing anything too objectionable, and at 5:50 or so I typically had three or four units up.
Spent all of yesterday tweaking the shit out of all the tiny little details and getting a very set order down. Was shocked to find that I can consistently have 7 units at the same time as I had 3-4 before, just from refining the timings on everything from when the gateways and pylons drop to when workers hit gas and of course making sure chrono boost happens optimally.
OremLK on
My zombie survival life simulator They Don't Sleep is out now on Steam if you want to check it out.
0
RaakamToo many years...CanadalandRegistered Userregular
edited May 2011
Can you actually go 3 gate expand vs roaches? From the few times I tried, I got completely annihilated, even with decent FF play...
SC2 has finally arrived! Also had to wait for a much cheaper shipped copy as Blizz still charge the full price and retail shops are so overpriced. Now to somehow survive a full days work whilst planning my starcraft future...
Tyler's droppin' some really interesting builds on his stream.. might have to try these. 2gate (inbase) zealot-heavy very late gas expand/pressure vs zerg into stargate play. Very very interesting.
Tyler's droppin' some really interesting builds on his stream.. might have to try these. 2gate (inbase) zealot-heavy very late gas expand/pressure vs zerg into stargate play. Very very interesting.
I watched several of those games earlier. Did very well against passive zergs, but baneling busts destroy it handily.
I wonder why Sheth never streams anymore. I really miss it.
I know he mentioned he was going to take a break from it to prepare, but he seems to have reneged on that as I've seen him streaming a bunch on weekday mornings over the last week (7am PST). He genuinely appears to enjoy interacting with viewers and talking about why he's doing what he's doing. It's a great example of what a stream should be like.
I wonder why Sheth never streams anymore. I really miss it.
I know he mentioned he was going to take a break from it to prepare, but he seems to have reneged on that as I've seen him streaming a bunch on weekday mornings over the last week (7am PST). He genuinely appears to enjoy interacting with viewers and talking about why he's doing what he's doing. It's a great example of what a stream should be like.
this one i just played against Enigma this morning
in Enigma's defense, he would have won that game due to catching me by surprise with 12+ mutalisks, but he miscontrolled his muta ball when his pizza arrived and lost half of it for no gain, and he wasn't far enough ahead to recover from it.
Dhalphir on
0
eddizhereScrubber Than A SpongeScrubtown, USARegistered Userregular
edited May 2011
I bought a new mousepad today and it's amazing what a difference it makes. So much more accurate and easy to move around!
I finally broke my losing streak after started using a speedling expand to open up with in most match-ups. I'm hoping that my rating won't go up faster than my mechanics improve because if I tried this junk on actual platinum players (not silver and gold like I've been playing) I would probably get trashed.
eddizhere on
League of Legends: Plutoniumwombat
Smite: Plutoniumwombat
0
Dhalphirdon't you open that trapdooryou're a fool if you dareRegistered Userregular
edited May 2011
was just about to make a new thread and remembered i'm still jailed so we'd have no images.
someone else wanna take it? or i guess we should wait for Dover since he's usually on around this time
I bought a new mousepad today and it's amazing what a difference it makes. So much more accurate and easy to move around!
I finally broke my losing streak after started using a speedling expand to open up with in most match-ups. I'm hoping that my rating won't go up faster than my mechanics improve because if I tried this junk on actual platinum players (not silver and gold like I've been playing) I would probably get trashed.
one of the best ways to improve, though it can be a bit of a douche move, is to play at a much much lower level than your actual current skill level, and play no cheese builds and never make a move to end games, always defend defend and force macro games by playing safe and solid. That was what I did to make the push from Diamond to Masters as Protoss. tanked my rating down to Bronze (before Blizzard started banning for such), and did nothing but fast expand builds in PvZ and PvT. You play a lot better when you're not worried about losing at all, which is conducive to a good learning environment. Playing 50 games at a low level with safe builds will immeasurably improve your basic mechanics.
tl;dr - If you want to improve quickest on the ladder, stop using cheese or 1base builds entirely, and stop playing your games to win. Instead, play them to "not die". Just defend everything your opponent throws at you, and wait for them to make a mistake that gives you an insurmountable lead before you end the game.
Posts
So I've mainly been working on nailing my build order to the neglect of pretty much everything else. Spent all yesterday figuring out the optimal way to do everything down to the little details like when I put my probes in gas. (It's an aggressive 3gate opening into early pressure and early expand, then transition into robo.)
Now, I'm just trying to pound it into my head in real games until I get to the point where it is automatic.
As a result, I didn't even 9 scout and wasn't paying close attention to what was going on, and didn't detect this guy's cheese...
...until I was already pushing into his base.
Epic cheese failure.
I just don't know how to play it at all, they always coutner me because it feels like protoss is in such a submissive position to start the game with.
I'm not exactly super-awesome at PvZ (or PvT or PvP) myself, but it helps if you think about your opponent's goals and how to funnel them towards your own goals instead. For example, a Zerg is inclined to expand as early as is feasible. Your initial goal is to prevent that and divert them into unit production as much as feasibly possible, hopefully while expanding yourself (but this isn't critical). So you want to:
1) 9 scout--you must do this because the other extreme is for a one-base all-in.
2) When you find them, check for expansion. If not there, check for pool.
- If you see a pool, determine the timing of it (early? Normal?) and retreat to the expansion.
- If you don't, get back to the expansion to block it.
3) Did you block it?
- Yes: \o/ Good, you're forcing them to either expand very far away or make units.
- No: <o_ That's okay. Scout again, make a cannon behind the expo, expo yourself.
- They're not even trying: <o> If they haven't tried to even send lings out by 20 food, scout and prepare for a ling/roach all-in (about 75% of the time).
When you don't block or cannon the expo, I imagine that you're facing a lot of Spanishiwa-type openings (no gas, two bases, lots of queens and spines with slowlings if you pressure). I won't lie; this is really hard to deal with. The solution is most generally a) take an earlier third, as he won't be making enough units to seriously threaten it; b) go templar tech <bleh> to deal with the inevitable infestors, c) make sure you deny him a third and the free T3 tech-switching it provides.
Games: Ad Astra Per Phalla | Choose Your Own Phalla
You should show us replays.
I'm really starting to work on attempting to macro up some, even though I ALWAYS lose if I macro up. I've been trying something like three gate expand. I just get out unit'd, but I think that's something I'll figure out as I keep trying. I need to build more production buildings and tech structures, and my macro goes totally to shit in any battle, which is super magnified with two or three bases. I also need to try to pressure and scout more when macroing.
It's just so damn difficult.
Blizzard expansion pack prices are $40. Blizzard's retail game prices have been $60 since Diablo 2 back in 2000.
In that case, I would have tried to stick around with my scout to see if the roach warren was put down while adding more one-base units. (And also to see if he suddenly overreacts to your probe! Whenever I see no expansion, go back in, and have half a dozen drones try to catch me, I know that roaches or banes are coming.) An early mass of roaches means he isn't saturating that second base but rather using it for more larvae, and your saturated single base would have been even enough in economy with his for you to fight the units off and expand yourself. That many roaches early does suck against an early expansion of course, but if you see the warren early enough while on one base, you can get a robo out and go immo/obs to stuff any burrow play.
I feel the pain of early 2-base roach with speed/burrow against 3-gate expand, though. It's very rough if they just stutter-spit through your FFs.
Games: Ad Astra Per Phalla | Choose Your Own Phalla
It's incredible how much more you can squeeze out of your build when you dedicate yourself to refining it. I was doing a basic Protoss 3gate opening, keeping my money low, not getting supply blocked, constant probe production, not doing anything too objectionable, and at 5:50 or so I typically had three or four units up.
Spent all of yesterday tweaking the shit out of all the tiny little details and getting a very set order down. Was shocked to find that I can consistently have 7 units at the same time as I had 3-4 before, just from refining the timings on everything from when the gateways and pylons drop to when workers hit gas and of course making sure chrono boost happens optimally.
I've been watching http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3PehkoES_jU to use as a reference for roach defense and am trying to model my play to that style for now
they don't it be like it is but it do
cause thats p cool
also should i buy team league pass, were the matches last night good?
EDIT: I'm buying a player pass, not an online one
Steam ID
when is it? I think I get the pass for free because of how bad the first mlg service was
Talk to me about marauder/hellion. I don't know that build
hmmmm...
I don't recommend learning it.
Witty signature comment goes here...
wra
Roaches are cheap, actually decent against marauders for cost, and really just completely ignore hellions.
Though roach / ling should be fine if you control the lings well.
they seem like they could protect some quick expands or something
i dunno
Where a middling unit was given a slight range bonus and suddenly it's seeming viable at almost all times.
Ground Attack: 25(+3) (Splash)
Ground DPS: 14.3(+1.7)
Air Attack: 25(+3) (Splash)
Air DPS: 14.3(+1.7)
Bonus: +10(+1) vs Biological
Bonus DPS: +5.7(+0.6) vs Biological
Range: 3
Cooldown: 1.754
35 dmg to biological with a 1.754 cooldown
20 DPS to bio
the thing is like a walking tank in siege mode!
Witty signature comment goes here...
wra
fucking love it
also doa and moletrap are pretty good!
fuckin ferrets man
it is always the best I don't understand it
also always makes me want to play more than anything else
I know he mentioned he was going to take a break from it to prepare, but he seems to have reneged on that as I've seen him streaming a bunch on weekday mornings over the last week (7am PST). He genuinely appears to enjoy interacting with viewers and talking about why he's doing what he's doing. It's a great example of what a stream should be like.
Ah... Well. I kinda have to work then.
sure no problem. always happy to show off :P
http://www.gamereplays.org/starcraft2/replays.php?game=33&show=details&id=209516
this one i just played against Enigma this morning
in Enigma's defense, he would have won that game due to catching me by surprise with 12+ mutalisks, but he miscontrolled his muta ball when his pizza arrived and lost half of it for no gain, and he wasn't far enough ahead to recover from it.
I finally broke my losing streak after started using a speedling expand to open up with in most match-ups. I'm hoping that my rating won't go up faster than my mechanics improve because if I tried this junk on actual platinum players (not silver and gold like I've been playing) I would probably get trashed.
Smite: Plutoniumwombat
someone else wanna take it? or i guess we should wait for Dover since he's usually on around this time
NEW THREAD HERE!
Legends of Runeterra: MNCdover #moc
Switch ID: MNC Dover SW-1154-3107-1051
Steam ID
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one of the best ways to improve, though it can be a bit of a douche move, is to play at a much much lower level than your actual current skill level, and play no cheese builds and never make a move to end games, always defend defend and force macro games by playing safe and solid. That was what I did to make the push from Diamond to Masters as Protoss. tanked my rating down to Bronze (before Blizzard started banning for such), and did nothing but fast expand builds in PvZ and PvT. You play a lot better when you're not worried about losing at all, which is conducive to a good learning environment. Playing 50 games at a low level with safe builds will immeasurably improve your basic mechanics.
tl;dr - If you want to improve quickest on the ladder, stop using cheese or 1base builds entirely, and stop playing your games to win. Instead, play them to "not die". Just defend everything your opponent throws at you, and wait for them to make a mistake that gives you an insurmountable lead before you end the game.