The new forums will be named Coin Return (based on the most recent vote)! You can check on the status and timeline of the transition to the new forums here.
The Guiding Principles and New Rules document is now in effect.
Give me your best... Criticism.
oscarman
Registered User regular
Registered User regular
So i've been working on a webcomic for a while now, I released it in April and have been doing 2 pages a week since then. I'm nearing the end of the second chapter (2 more pages) and really am looking for some serious critique in order to maybe gain some more viewers.
Anyway here are some pages, you can check the full story out at http://www.maxandned.com/
Also, i'll just make this my art thread.
The thing is, my webcomic also has an audio element. Basically me and my band record clips to accompany the pages, and sometimes even full songs (page 20). This can only be listened to on the site though.
Hope you guys enjoy it, and am looking forward to some feedback.
Cheers!
Anyway here are some pages, you can check the full story out at http://www.maxandned.com/
Also, i'll just make this my art thread.
The thing is, my webcomic also has an audio element. Basically me and my band record clips to accompany the pages, and sometimes even full songs (page 20). This can only be listened to on the site though.
Hope you guys enjoy it, and am looking forward to some feedback.
Cheers!
oscarman on
0
Posts
Yeah ok, I can fix that haha. Thanks.
We're there speakers in the floor? That didn't make a lot of sense.
and the final panel doesn't make any sense at all.
Also I wasn't sure if your guy was wearing a blonde wig or a helmet.
Artistically it feels a lot like Ctrl + Alt + Del. You really need to spend some time outside of the comic improving your drawing skills, otherwise you're going to find your learning a hard long slog.
There we go, added another page that should explain the speaker problem.
He is wearing a helmet, it explains it in the page before that one.
The music element is a big part of this guys, page 20 (the last one i posted up there ^) has a full song, which is what they hear.
And was there anything in particular you think i could improve with my drawing? That is something i'm really trying to work on, but not sure where to start...
hi lurker here.
Anyways, the regulars always answer that question with, "Draw from life."
Also read the stickies apparently there are links to suggested reading and such and things.
have fun!
Personally for you, I would study anatomy and movement. Mike Matessi has a book called Force, that is utterly invaluable when trying to imply movement in your drawings. Pick it up when you get the chance.
Also commit some time to understanding what makes a 3 dimensional object on a page look 3 dimensional. You need to get into your head that every single object is affected by perspective, it's a horrifying realisation when you understand the unending task you have placed before yourself, but utterly essential if you're ever going to improve. There is a link on the front page of the Q&D thread that has a link to the books of Andrew Loomis, I would heavily study the chapters explaining the head.
By the way, have just finished the 2nd chapter, the art should be getting better and better... Hopefully.
Also, i've been working on my heads a bit. Here is an example of the head of the councillor:
It's not anatomically correct, obviously i've exaggerated details. But that's how it works for my comic.
edit: I'm saying with (lots of) practice you could have something. All the right elements are here you just have to polish them. There's potential.
You could be telling the most amazing story ever told
But as I skim through the page, I instantly lose any and all hope that this could be worth my time, because it looks like characters I have seen a million times before.
As for the music element, I give you props for trying it, but here's the thing:
a webcomic is short
I could feasibly have read the whole thing before I see the play button let alone hit it.
Now, if your writing is truly great, I sure as heck will wanna go back and see how the music works with it.
Or, if the art is super neat, maybe I will wanna hear the music that goes with it.
And that's completely forgetting the fact that I have no idea what part of the strip the music is meant to accentuate or when it is supposed to be heard.
But it's moot, because you can't use the music as a crutch to make up for a lack of anything visual holding my interest.
I couldn't care less about the music if the artwork and dialogue aren't up to par with it
And frankly, they aren't.
As for the music itself, a lot of it is just interstitial stuff. Nothing of enough importance to make me care about how it affects the comic to begin with. A 12 second instrumental, even if it is neat, doesn't really add to my enjoyment of a rather stale, quite frankly, boring to read and look at comic.
Now, look, I get it, you are trying to tell an episodic piece.
But just because it is episodic, it doesn't mean every comic doesn't need a punchline or a really strong hook to make me keep reading. Nor does it mean that a single strip can't be read or understood or enjoyed without having the knowledge of an entire backstory.
Your storytelling skills just aren't there, and the music is not picking up the slack or really doing much to enhance my enjoyment at all. Especially the strips that had a full song.
Why do I want to look at a strip that lacks even the basic fundementals long enough to listen to a song?
What about the story is making me take this time out?
You can't ask me to immerse myself into this without a reason.
Being my first comic ever, i really wanted peoples honest opinions, and what better place to find it than on the internet
The first 2 chapters you have just seen are just back-story. As i said, this was my first comic and i figured the best way to get it done, was to stop fucking around with it and just do it. I would really like it if you guys would follow along for the next chapter and see how the story develops, and if you don't like it by the end, fair enough, it's not your cup of tea.
Everything to do with this comic is experimental, maybe not for the comic industry, but for me. The music has been hard, to be honest, especially when at the moment you really can only just get glimpses of why it is there. Trust me when i say it gets a lot better from here on in (narratively, musically, and hopefully visually).
Thanks again, and i hope you choose to keep reading
I listened to your opinion, and although you managed to dissect my comic and show me all the things that are wrong with it, it is still just an opinion.
I am going to finish this comic, it will improve, and i hope you keep reading
I have been taking all the constructive criticism into account.
Ok and maybe it was a bit out of order...
Creating original looking characters is something that i really struggled with, and i'm sure everyone else does too.
I just can't stress enough that the first 2 chapters are solely there for story and character building, it gets a lot more exciting from here.
Does anyone see any good things in the comic apart from the framing?
The story is fine and dandy and all, but there isn't really application of a lot of the fundamentals visually
I think you should practice on things outside of the comic, maybe do some perspective and colour studies
I did read the whole thing, and I do believe studying those aspects would help a lot.
Thanks man, i appreciate it.
I'm studying Andrew Loomis' books at the moment, and they are really helping with my character proportions, which is something i can't do at all. The first 2 chapters are meant to accentuate the fact that they are living in a really dull boring world, full of just white and grey. This will all make itself clear this chapter.
I don't want to ask too much, but are there any particular parts you thought needed the most attention? Or was it just the whole thing?
It's not so much "oh the perspective in this panel is off" as "the whole thing just isn't really working"
Again, I suggest studies outside of your comic
I am talking about what I have seen already and what can be done to improve it.
I am talking storytelling.
You tell me that the first two chapters are back-story and world
building.
I will give you the benefit of the doubt on this.
But here's the thing: you need to have a story and a world for there to be any back-story or world building. You can't tell me that the first time I see a character doesn't count because it is back-story because either
A. You are admitting that nothing I am about to read even matters, so why bother
or
B. You are trying to justify any and all flaws in what I am about to read
Whether these things are true or not is a different story, but that is basically the gist I get when someone says this.
And, when you tell me that these beginning chapters are just that and that the exciting stuff doesn't come later, you have already failed. When you are telling me to keep reading instead of me wanting to keep reading, you have done something wrong.
And I am not talking about myself, personally, I am substituting myself for any reader. You can't tell me the good stuff is around the corner. The good stuff should've been there from strip one.
There's a reason most comics have a single origin issue/strip: set-up is boring, and should be streamlined as quickly and effectively as possible. Any info I should need to continue enjoying the story should come up as it continues, organically.
What you need to take into account for is your audience: the internet.
There are millions of webcomics out there. By the end of a single strip, they will know whether they will stick by yours or not. Every strip needs to give me something that'll make me keep coming back. As I read your chapters, every strip is mostly "and then this happens." "and then this happens." "and then this happens." with little or no regard as to why or, more importantly, why I should care?
This is especially detrimental if you are trying to tell an episodic narrative or one long-form story. If none of the plot points add up to anything strip by strip but instead "later on down the road," I am gone. How far is the road? What things will pop up in between question and answer?
And a lot of these pitfalls could be avoided if you had interesting characters, but to be frank, I don't know how to even tell them apart. Again, not visually, but moreso because they don't seem to have personalities, nor do they say more than "fuck" or "shit" in any given strip.
It just seems there are a bunch of ideas all slapped together here, with little regard as to how they work, and what annoys me is there are things I dig like your panel layout and some sight gags, but they, too, suffer because it looks like zero thought has been put into why they are there.
And i thank you for telling me how you feel, but i've already done the first 2 chapters, and it's not like i am going to stop. I just don't know how to respond to your posts haha, it is rather difficult...
I mean, what do you expect me to say to that? "Yeah ok, i'll give up this comic, spend a few years practicing, then try again"? I'm already getting about 4000 unique viewers per month, and i've done too much to just stop. Ok, the quality isn't going to get instantly better, and if you didn't like the first 2 chapters as much as you say, you probably aren't going to like the rest of it. The thing is, i know the script gets better, and i know my art will improve, and i also know the music will start fitting in more. But all you have is my word.
Sometimes here in the AC we get a little too caught up in criticism (which I'm about to, btw...) and not enough commendation and motivation. It's a flaw of ours, sorry. But know if you've got the drive to keep at this comic than you've already got the hard part down. Everything else is just details.
But as far as criticism goes, here's my take on a couple things The Lovely Bastard said.
Storytelling: You've gotta cut out the chaff. What was the point of the very first page with the video game? It did nothing to reveal the setting, characters, or conflict. Why is the main character having so many dreams? If it's a plot point, wouldn't one have been enough? If it's not a plot point, why is it there? Why not have the boys open the doors the first visit? Nothing of importance happened until they did, two pages later. That's two pages wasted.
Most of the story is just filler so far. The same story could have been told in a much shorter span of time in a much more interest holding pace. Antoine de Saint-Exupery once said, "A designer knows he has achieved perfection not when there is nothing left to add, but when there is nothing left to take away." Only stop taking things away when you can't anymore because it ruins the story, not before.
This'll require you to plan out your comic. After you've got a page in mind ask yourself "Does EVERYTHING on this page contribute to my objective?" Your objective at the start might just be to reveal a setting, individual pages might have the objective of making a joke, but over all the objective is to tell an interesting story. If anything on the page falls to help, get rid of it.
Characters: Like the Lovely Bastard pointed out, I'm having a hard time telling them apart. Max and Ned both have brown hair, dress the same, talk to the same, act the same, have the same build and very similar faces.
It would help to write up a quick bio for each. Include things like their motivations, personality, quirks, history, interests. To be interesting they need to be different. Think Gabe and Tycho :P Based on that bio ask yourself, "How would Max dress? Would he do and say the things I've written for him on this page?"
If you can do both those things, cut out unnecessary story and make your characters distinct and interesting individuals than you'll have me as another unique hit for sure! I'm looking forward to chapter 3.
Hey man, thanks a lot.
Yeah the story and the writing is definitely something i've been working on. I find it so hard to let go of some things though... But my girlfriend (who is a writer) is constantly nagging me to cut things out after she's read it, and i do my best. I just changed some of chapter 3 the other day, i think it's gonna be good.
The music for this chapter i've done differently, you'll just have to wait and see
Anyway, i've started the third chapter, and i hope you guys follow! Thanks for all the feedback!
So would love some more critiques on this page, and like i've said, please visit the site so that you can hear the music, this chapter i'm really trying hard to make it all work!
http://www.maxandned.com/?p=31
That being said, this current page you posted I think is very interesting and one of the best you've made because of the contrast of the men wanting to inject him and him not wanting to be injected.
In sum I think you have a lot of potential to very soon make a good comic. However, if you keep it 99% Max and Ned instead of 50/50 Ruby/boys IMO you will fail.
Oh and, i don't know how clear it is, but Max wants Ruby, that is one of his motives.
And thanks again for reading the whole thing.
And now it is.
http://www.maxandned.com/?p=33
INSTAGRAM
huge white rooms with gaping expanses everywhere seem to be where the majority of the story action takes place and it's sorta boring.
I realize they live in the future and the future apparently has no wallpaper or other interior design elements, but seriously, the set is really bland and doesn't feel like a place I can "visit" in my head. It makes it feel to me as if much of the story takes place in a vacuum. The fact that as a reader I can't tell where the characters *are* a lot of the time is worth noting here.
The other side of that coin: I know what it is like to hate to do backgrounds-- I hate doing them myself and I recognize all the hallmarks of not wanting to do them and not caring about them because they're all things I've done myself. For a really long time I was terrible at constructing backgrounds for my scenes, to the point where I would simply not do it. This really did nothing except make future-me horribly self conscious about even LOOKING at my work from back then. (When I was 15, I made a zine-style black and white comic that I self published at a local print shop and it was. wow. really. unbelievably bad. I am working on a redraw from this thing... but it takes a lot to even LOOK at it for any length of time without laughing or wanting to cry, haha)
Also, I know teenage guys swear a lot, but it feels like overkill here-- since this doesn't seem to be a humor comic, it makes less sense.. we're only 33 pages in and I feel like you've said "fuck," to no real effect, at least that many times. (I did not count, but trust me... it is overly much for a "story" type comic.) There are a lot of places where the guys are swearing at themselves/each other/inanimate objects where they could actually say something that would show a little more about their personalities instead.
Just my thoughts! This is not terrible, there are just a lot of things keeping it back, and I think the majority of those things can be overcome by consistent practice.
Uncanny Magazine!
The Mad Writers Union
Hey, yeah ok. So you're right, i fucking HATE backgrounds, and i couldn't wait to get out of that facility so i could draw space and different things like interiors of space ships.
There are reasons why it's so blank, and they are actually buildings, and are on the earth, not in space. The atmosphere is full of poisonous gas, it's still an atmosphere though, so all the new buildings do is filter the air. Also, they are living in a very fascist society, and there isn't a lot of freedom, art has been completely wiped out meaning a lot of independence has gone too. Everything is meant to look as bland as possible. This obviously doesn't help to keep things interesting, i probably could have, but considering it was my first comic i struggled finding ways of keeping readers interested.
Now i'm trying to decide, since the good part has started, whether i should do a quick recap of the first 2 chapters and make a "overview of story up to here" part so people don't have to read it all? Haha. I mean... I want people to read it, but whether or not they will is another question.
I like swearing, it has literally just been outlawed in my state:
http://www.theage.com.au/opinion/society-and-culture/the-curse-of-the-foullanguage-law-20110531-1fepo.html
Yep, i struggle with hands sometimes if you can't tell.
Thanks for reading and noticing though
So i've been improving, i think.
Keep posting the comic itself here though, you'll get more feed back if we don't have to hunt for it
I like this frame the most. And don't worry, they will find a new change of clothes soon enough.
http://www.maxandned.com/
I feel that in some of the panels, you're trying to fit too much into a small space. Basically a few of the large panels are more zoomed in, while some of the smaller panels are zoomed out (and therefore the amount of detail in them is either lost, or quite hard to see).
The recent panel of the ship disappearing suffers from this. For panels like that, I'd probably recommend drawing them in larger panels. That panel in particular is quite visually interesting, and should be shown larger so that people pay more attention to it!
Dialogue-wise, I can't really say much about the story because I haven't followed the whole way through. The only thing I'd say is that it seems a little stilted in places due to the lack of contractions in their speech.
I think it's more noticeable because these characters are supposed to be teenagers; certain phrases, especially ones like "we did it, we are free!" sound really weird to me because everyone I know would say "we did it, we're free!"
Anyways, that's all I've got at the moment. Keep on updating, and keep posting it here if you want us to give advice where we can!
Webcomic Twitter Steam Wishlist SATAN
Yeah! It's obviously not that hard to tell it's my first comic. I am really happy with some of my frames, and that one in particular. You're right i should have made it bigger (especially the red balloons in it, which are a way of sucking fresh air from high in the atmosphere, where it is then processed and pumped into the facilities back on earth.)
For me the story has just kicked off (as you can probably tell, now that i get to draw FUCKING ALIENS), i really am considering adding a recap of the first 2 chapters so people don't get put off by my shoddy artwork/boring dialogue. Anyone think this is a good idea?
Here is the latest page:
http://www.maxandned.com/?p=37
Would love some feedback!
Ok, i will, but i've said before that my comic also has audio on it which i cannot post here and it is supposed to compliment the page.