The new forums will be named Coin Return (based on the most recent vote)! You can check on the status and timeline of the transition to the new forums here.
We now return to our regularly scheduled PA Forums. Please let me (Hahnsoo1) know if something isn't working. The Holiday Forum will remain up until January 10, 2025.

[Gay Rights] Gays Ran The Holocaust. No, really.

13468923

Posts

  • 21stCentury21stCentury Call me Pixel, or Pix for short! [They/Them]Registered User regular
    edited June 2011
    Call me a troll if you want. I don't care. Whatever I say won't convince you since you already decided to call me one.

    21stCentury on
  • BlackjackBlackjack Registered User regular
    edited June 2011
    Could someone transcribe or at least summarize what he says for those of us that don't have sound at the moment?

    Blackjack on
    camo_sig2.png

    3DS: 1607-3034-6970
  • DrukDruk Registered User regular
    edited June 2011
    Blackjack wrote: »
    Could someone transcribe or at least summarize what he says for those of us that don't have sound at the moment?

    "You're a silly goose"

    Not really much content, just...*bleep bleep bleep*

    Druk on
  • rockrngerrockrnger Registered User regular
    edited June 2011
    On a happy note, Illinois started allowing civil unions today.

    Do we have a verb for this yet? Unionized?

    rockrnger on
  • TaramoorTaramoor Storyteller Registered User regular
    edited June 2011
    rockrnger wrote: »
    On a happy note, Illinois started allowing civil unions today.

    Do we have a verb for this yet? Unionized?

    No wonder Republicans are against it.

    Taramoor on
  • 21stCentury21stCentury Call me Pixel, or Pix for short! [They/Them]Registered User regular
    edited June 2011
    rockrnger wrote: »
    On a happy note, Illinois started allowing civil unions today.

    Do we have a verb for this yet? Unionized?

    Do civil Unions give all the same benefits as marriage yet?

    21stCentury on
  • hanskeyhanskey Registered User regular
    edited June 2011
    Deebaser wrote: »
    ... nonsensical reaching analogy about headlights, feel free.
    But that's my favorite type ...

    and at least I didn't say "blacks gets locked up 'cause theys poors", like you did (yes that was a paraphrase not a quote).
    Deebaser wrote: »
    It'd probably be more useful to post some of these "huge swathes of evidence" with income/race/geo crosstabs.
    I have ceased posting evidence for lazy geese who say dumb things and then attack the rest of us when they can't back up their questionable statements.

    Also, it is obvious from the two posts of yours that I've read in this thread that you already have a fixed point of view on incarceration rates and what that has to do with race, so why should I bother trying to get through to your reasoning centers, particularly when you actively choose not to use them?

    If your evidence is really so good and convincing for your viewpoint, then the best way to defeat me is to cite it instead of weakly attempting to convince me to do you a favor.

    Edit: seriously ... weak ...

    hanskey on
  • BlackjackBlackjack Registered User regular
    edited June 2011
    rockrnger wrote: »
    On a happy note, Illinois started allowing civil unions today.

    Do we have a verb for this yet? Unionized?
    I certainly don't have any sort of source on this, but I'd be willing to bet that most people that have a civil union still call themselves married, just for the ease of it.

    I think "partnered" is the word of choice for those that want to express the difference, though.

    Blackjack on
    camo_sig2.png

    3DS: 1607-3034-6970
  • QuidQuid Definitely not a banana Registered User regular
    edited June 2011
    Sure we will. If they shut up, a lot less gay kids will be told that they're going to hell.

    They won't shut up, though. Insulting them, trying to marginalize them, it doesn't make them want to give up, it makes them want to fight harder. That's my whole point. if you want acceptance, it's not by attacking the opposition, it's by converting them to our side. i mean, I'd say that the people who are organizing groups like Republicans for Marriage reform are more helpful to the cause than people who won't scream the f-word whenever they see two men holding hands, but still votes against their rights.

    Actually, many will. Lament the idea that whites and negroes marry and someone's party nowadays. Then hop in to your time machine and do so at a party in the fifties. Afterward, compare results.

    Quid on
  • QuidQuid Definitely not a banana Registered User regular
    edited June 2011
    rockrnger wrote: »
    On a happy note, Illinois started allowing civil unions today.

    Do we have a verb for this yet? Unionized?

    Do civil Unions give all the same benefits as marriage yet?

    Zero federal rights and with states it's up to them.

    Quid on
  • BurtletoyBurtletoy Registered User regular
    edited June 2011
    hanskey wrote: »
    Deebaser wrote: »
    ... nonsensical reaching analogy about headlights, feel free.
    But that's my favorite type ...

    and at least I didn't say "blacks gets locked up 'cause theys poors", like you did (yes that was a paraphrase not a quote).
    Deebaser wrote: »
    It'd probably be more useful to post some of these "huge swathes of evidence" with income/race/geo crosstabs.
    I have ceased posting evidence for lazy geese who say dumb things and then attack the rest of us when they can't back up their questionable statements.

    Also, it is obvious from the two posts of yours that I've read in this thread that you already have a fixed point of view on incarceration rates and what that has to do with race, so why should I bother trying to get through to your reasoning centers, particularly when you actively choose not to use them?

    If your evidence is really so good and convincing for your viewpoint, then the best way to defeat me is to cite it instead of weakly attempting to convince me to do you a favor.

    Edit: seriously ... weak ...

    Seriously?

    Dude, all he did was ask for a cite. That isn't a rare or unheard of thing in D&D.

    Sometimes some of us want to learn something so we ask for the "proof" you have.

    Don't go all pants-on-goose-head just because he asked you a normal common everyday question.

    Burtletoy on
  • 21stCentury21stCentury Call me Pixel, or Pix for short! [They/Them]Registered User regular
    edited June 2011
    Quid wrote: »
    rockrnger wrote: »
    On a happy note, Illinois started allowing civil unions today.

    Do we have a verb for this yet? Unionized?

    Do civil Unions give all the same benefits as marriage yet?

    Zero federal rights and with states it's up to them.

    So... They still don't have most of the rights they'd need for marriage equality, right?

    21stCentury on
  • The_SpaniardThe_Spaniard It's never lupines Irvine, CaliforniaRegistered User regular
    edited June 2011
    Blackjack wrote: »
    Could someone transcribe or at least summarize what he says for those of us that don't have sound at the moment?

    Basically "You're really going to protest a 9 year old girls death and tell me that I'm going to hell? Well I know I'm going to hell, but I can't wait to see you there so I can punch you right in the fucking cunt you bitch!" *click*

    The_Spaniard on
    Playstation/Origin/GoG: Span_Wolf Xbox/uPlay/Bnet: SpanWolf Nintendo: Span_Wolf SW-7097-4917-9392 Steam: http://steamcommunity.com/id/Span_Wolf/
  • hanskeyhanskey Registered User regular
    edited June 2011
    Burtletoy wrote: »
    ... nonsense produced by someone who obviously didn't read the whole conversation...
    Start a new thread if you want this conversation to continue...

    hanskey on
  • BagginsesBagginses __BANNED USERS regular
    edited June 2011
    hanskey wrote: »
    toddler-crying-280x280.jpg

    Bagginses on
  • ThanatosThanatos Registered User regular
    edited June 2011
    Burtletoy wrote: »
    Thanatos wrote: »
    Didn't the DC diocese do the same thing that this Chicago one is doing?

    Are there any Catholic groups that have agreed to let gay couples adopt?
    I thought it was Boston?
    Probably them, too.

    Anyone know, offhand? Dioceses that aren't telling kids to fuck off because the gubmint won't let them be huge fucking bigots anymore?

    Thanatos on
  • BagginsesBagginses __BANNED USERS regular
    edited June 2011
    Thanatos wrote: »
    Burtletoy wrote: »
    Thanatos wrote: »
    Didn't the DC diocese do the same thing that this Chicago one is doing?

    Are there any Catholic groups that have agreed to let gay couples adopt?
    I thought it was Boston?
    Probably them, too.

    Anyone know, offhand? Dioceses that aren't telling kids to fuck off because the gubmint won't let them be huge fucking bigots anymore?

    Yep

    Bagginses on
  • ThanatosThanatos Registered User regular
    edited June 2011
    Bagginses wrote: »
    Thanatos wrote: »
    Burtletoy wrote: »
    Thanatos wrote: »
    Didn't the DC diocese do the same thing that this Chicago one is doing?

    Are there any Catholic groups that have agreed to let gay couples adopt?
    I thought it was Boston?
    Probably them, too.

    Anyone know, offhand? Dioceses that aren't telling kids to fuck off because the gubmint won't let them be huge fucking bigots anymore?

    Yep
    I was thinking that that would be a link to a diocese not telling kids to fuck off.

    That'll teach me to be an optimist.

    Thanatos on
  • BurtletoyBurtletoy Registered User regular
    edited June 2011
    I also assumed the anser was to the 2nd question.

    Son I am dis....

    Burtletoy on
  • MechMantisMechMantis Registered User regular
    edited June 2011
    I'm still not understanding the uproar about this.

    It's not like this position is an unknown, it's not like there aren't other organizations capable of taking care of adoptions, and it's not like the Catholic Charities are keeping those other organizations from operating.

    If anything the adoption services will no longer be beholden to two masters, which I'm fairly certain is a good thing.

    Again, the perils of leaving basic civil services in the hands of outside organizations with views that might be contrary to the views of the state.

    MechMantis on
  • rockrngerrockrnger Registered User regular
    edited June 2011
    Quid wrote: »
    rockrnger wrote: »
    On a happy note, Illinois started allowing civil unions today.

    Do we have a verb for this yet? Unionized?

    Do civil Unions give all the same benefits as marriage yet?

    Zero federal rights and with states it's up to them.

    Of course that's the same of marriage right now. Baby steps.

    rockrnger on
  • Casual EddyCasual Eddy The Astral PlaneRegistered User regular
    edited June 2011
    Mocking worked against racists.

    Right you are, In fact, that's why racism was completely eliminated in America.

    Oh, wait... There's still a lot of very pervasive racism, a lot of racists and even overt racism in many places.

    I don't think it actually worked.

    In two generations we went from legally keeping Black people out of schools and criminalizing interracial marriage to having a Black president.

    Don't let perfect be the enemy of pretty fucking spectacular.

    All it really did, though, was make it less visible, more pervasive than ever, stealthy and, in fact, ignored by many.

    There's a lot of people who claim there is no racism in America, that America is a post-racial society since a black man is president.

    I mean, yeah, officially there's no more segregation, but a lot of black children and teenagers go to worse schools than their white peers, black people have longer, harsher prison sentences and a higher conviction rate than whites.

    But yeah, at least the guys who hung them don't do it in public anymore.

    no one has actually ever claimed that

    Casual Eddy on
  • enlightenedbumenlightenedbum Registered User regular
    edited June 2011
    Um, lots of people have. They're called Republicans.

    enlightenedbum on
    The idea that your vote is a moral statement about you or who you vote for is some backwards ass libertarian nonsense. Your vote is about society. Vote to protect the vulnerable.
  • Captain CarrotCaptain Carrot Alexandria, VARegistered User regular
    edited June 2011
    I have heard people claim it, but they've all been hardcore Republicans who disapproved of Obama's performance after one week in office.

    Captain Carrot on
  • KayuraKayura Registered User regular
    edited June 2011
    MechMantis wrote: »
    I'm still not understanding the uproar about this.

    It's not like this position is an unknown, it's not like there aren't other organizations capable of taking care of adoptions, and it's not like the Catholic Charities are keeping those other organizations from operating.

    If anything the adoption services will no longer be beholden to two masters, which I'm fairly certain is a good thing.

    Again, the perils of leaving basic civil services in the hands of outside organizations with views that might be contrary to the views of the state.

    Yeah, in the short-run this is bad for adoptions, but in the long run it will lead to more tolerant, secular groups being in control of the process. I do find it amusing that Catholic Charities wanted a special exemption to keep discriminating against gay couples while on the government dime, and had the gaul to be offended when this was denied them. Give someone an inch and they'll take a mile, I guess.

    Kayura on
    Gridman! Baby DAN DAN! Baby DAN DAN!
  • Casual EddyCasual Eddy The Astral PlaneRegistered User regular
    edited June 2011
    I guess I don't see how it's different than a religious organization refusing to give children to black families, and then ending their services altogether when forced to comply with integration

    Casual Eddy on
  • KayuraKayura Registered User regular
    edited June 2011
    I imagine it will be looked on upon in much the same light as that, once enough time has passed. It seems the Catholic Church specializes in looking less than stellar in retrospect.

    Kayura on
    Gridman! Baby DAN DAN! Baby DAN DAN!
  • MechMantisMechMantis Registered User regular
    edited June 2011
    FCD wrote: »
    MechMantis wrote: »
    I'm still not understanding the uproar about this.

    It's not like this position is an unknown, it's not like there aren't other organizations capable of taking care of adoptions, and it's not like the Catholic Charities are keeping those other organizations from operating.

    If anything the adoption services will no longer be beholden to two masters, which I'm fairly certain is a good thing.

    Again, the perils of leaving basic civil services in the hands of outside organizations with views that might be contrary to the views of the state.

    Yeah, in the short-run this is bad for adoptions, but in the long run it will lead to more tolerant, secular groups being in control of the process. I do find it amusing that Catholic Charities wanted a special exemption to keep discriminating against gay couples while on the government dime, and had the gaul to be offended when this was denied them. Give someone an inch and they'll take a mile, I guess.

    Except they discriminated against all non-married couples, regardless of orientation. Of course, those in a heterosexual relationship could get married, but you see the point.

    And in a two-party contract, if one party finds the new terms unacceptable, well, they don't renew the contract. It's hardly having the gall to be offended it's "We find these new terms to be unacceptable, so we are ceasing our services."

    MechMantis on
  • KayuraKayura Registered User regular
    edited June 2011
    MechMantis wrote: »
    FCD wrote: »
    MechMantis wrote: »
    I'm still not understanding the uproar about this.

    It's not like this position is an unknown, it's not like there aren't other organizations capable of taking care of adoptions, and it's not like the Catholic Charities are keeping those other organizations from operating.

    If anything the adoption services will no longer be beholden to two masters, which I'm fairly certain is a good thing.

    Again, the perils of leaving basic civil services in the hands of outside organizations with views that might be contrary to the views of the state.

    Yeah, in the short-run this is bad for adoptions, but in the long run it will lead to more tolerant, secular groups being in control of the process. I do find it amusing that Catholic Charities wanted a special exemption to keep discriminating against gay couples while on the government dime, and had the gaul to be offended when this was denied them. Give someone an inch and they'll take a mile, I guess.

    Except they discriminated against all non-married couples, regardless of orientation based on that argument. Of course, those in a heterosexual marriage could get married, but you see the point.

    And in a two-party contract, if one party finds the new terms unacceptable, well, they don't renew the contract. It's hardly having the gall to be offended it's "We find these new terms to be unacceptable, so we are ceasing our services."

    From what I read of the story, the CC asked for a specific amendment to the non-discrimination policy so that they could continue discriminating against gay couples, and then their spokeperson treated it as an attack on their religious beliefs when said amendment was denied. Here is the relevant quote from the ariticle that I am refering to:


    "When the law was passed, Catholic Charities and other religious and conservative groups pushed for an amendment that would allow faith-based organizations to "decline an adoption or foster family home application" to a couple in a civil union if "if acceptance of that application would constitute a violation of the organization's sincerely held religious beliefs." A Senate committee voted down the amendment in April, and a House committee did the same this week.

    "The law of our land has always guaranteed its people freedom of religion," Penny Wiegert, the Rockford Diocese's director of communication said in a statement. "Denying this exemption to faith-based agencies leads one to believe that our lawmakers prefer laws that guarantee freedom from religion. We simply can not compromise the spirit that motivates us to deliver quality, professional services to families by letting our state define our religious teachings."

    Kayura on
    Gridman! Baby DAN DAN! Baby DAN DAN!
  • BagginsesBagginses __BANNED USERS regular
    edited June 2011
    MechMantis wrote: »
    FCD wrote: »
    MechMantis wrote: »
    I'm still not understanding the uproar about this.

    It's not like this position is an unknown, it's not like there aren't other organizations capable of taking care of adoptions, and it's not like the Catholic Charities are keeping those other organizations from operating.

    If anything the adoption services will no longer be beholden to two masters, which I'm fairly certain is a good thing.

    Again, the perils of leaving basic civil services in the hands of outside organizations with views that might be contrary to the views of the state.

    Yeah, in the short-run this is bad for adoptions, but in the long run it will lead to more tolerant, secular groups being in control of the process. I do find it amusing that Catholic Charities wanted a special exemption to keep discriminating against gay couples while on the government dime, and had the gaul to be offended when this was denied them. Give someone an inch and they'll take a mile, I guess.

    Except they discriminated against all non-married couples, regardless of orientation. Of course, those in a heterosexual relationship could get married, but you see the point.

    And in a two-party contract, if one party finds the new terms unacceptable, well, they don't renew the contract. It's hardly having the gall to be offended it's "We find these new terms to be unacceptable, so we are ceasing our services."

    Gay marriages are legal in MA, which was the problem the church had.

    As for the second part, there are lots of things that are legal that are morally reprehensible. We'd be pissed if someone terminated a contract after finding out that the contract mandated providing the same services to blacks as to whites. It's not like this was the Wuchale Treaty or something.

    Bagginses on
  • MechMantisMechMantis Registered User regular
    edited June 2011
    Which is why you don't give control over basic civil services to a religious organization that doesn't like seeing its "beliefs" (in quotes for various reasons I've described in other places) compromised.

    They felt their beliefs were being compromised if X law passed in Y way without Z amendment. The law did, so they nulled the contract legally.

    I'm more annoyed at the state for relying on a religious institution to do basic shit rather than the Catholic Charity nulling the contract in a completely legal way.

    Tangentially: There is going to be a shitstorm over the word "marriage", and how the US is gonna force the Church to recognize gay marriages and whatnot when a simple addition of "sacramental" to the Church definition would solve that problem.

    Of course I doubt the Church would ever do that but hey.

    MechMantis on
  • KayuraKayura Registered User regular
    edited June 2011
    Oh, I'm all about the Separation of Church and State, so I don't think the government and the CC should EVER have had such a close working partnership. So, again, in the long run, this is for the best.

    Kayura on
    Gridman! Baby DAN DAN! Baby DAN DAN!
  • MechMantisMechMantis Registered User regular
    edited June 2011
    I will say though that when left to their own devices, the Catholic Charities are generally pretty awesome.

    but really, when you've got an organization working for you that's beholden to two masters, you and the very thing that created it, well...

    you can't be particularly surprised when the organization severs ties when you do something the second master doesn't like.

    MechMantis on
  • LadyMLadyM Registered User regular
    edited June 2011
    It was a shitty thing for them to do. Period.

    Regarding the right way to bring about civil rights changes, I think it takes both the hardcore "in your face method" and the softer, gentler method. I was reading Gay Seattle and it had this quote from a Gay Liberation Front member in the 1970s:

    "Ours was the group that would walk on Broadway holding hands. It just wasn't done. What was fun was to have two of us holding hands and someone else twenty feet behind just to listen to some of the comments, or occasionally to react to some of the comments. That's where you're being open making it possible for others to be open." Sometimes he dressed to outrage, not as a performing drag queen, but as what came to be known as "gender-fucking." "What was the thing about me being in a dress?" he said. "If I was that outrageous, it let other people be not quite as outrageous but to be much more expressive of who they were without crossing the line."

    LadyM on
  • JihadJesusJihadJesus Registered User regular
    edited June 2011
    Thanatos wrote: »
    Bagginses wrote: »
    Thanatos wrote: »
    Burtletoy wrote: »
    Thanatos wrote: »
    Didn't the DC diocese do the same thing that this Chicago one is doing?

    Are there any Catholic groups that have agreed to let gay couples adopt?
    I thought it was Boston?
    Probably them, too.

    Anyone know, offhand? Dioceses that aren't telling kids to fuck off because the gubmint won't let them be huge fucking bigots anymore?

    Yep
    I was thinking that that would be a link to a diocese not telling kids to fuck off.

    That'll teach me to be an optimist.
    Than, if you're an optimist I'm the Virgin Mary.

    JihadJesus on
  • QuidQuid Definitely not a banana Registered User regular
    edited June 2011
    Quid wrote: »
    rockrnger wrote: »
    On a happy note, Illinois started allowing civil unions today.

    Do we have a verb for this yet? Unionized?

    Do civil Unions give all the same benefits as marriage yet?

    Zero federal rights and with states it's up to them.

    So... They still don't have most of the rights they'd need for marriage equality, right?

    Not even close. And those that have marriage and not civil unions don't have federal rights or any rights outside of those states that grant them.

    Quid on
  • Apothe0sisApothe0sis Have you ever questioned the nature of your reality? Registered User regular
    edited June 2011
    http://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=1722155

    Has everyone read this yet?

    It's Robert P. George and a few others alleged magnum opus on the topic of why gay marriage is wrong. George is a devout Catholic, a law professor and prominent natural law theorist. He's known to have close ties to a number of Republican committees and so forth.

    It is alleged, that natural law provides a secular basis upon which to object to the "homosexual agenda" which doesn't rely upon theology.

    It's a hugely bizarre argument, but not as simple as one might assume. Certainly they try to address the common objections to the "but it's not natural" argument.

    It's seriously crazy. It proceeds from "male and female genitals are made to interact with each other" to "the procreative aspect of male and female sex is what is important" to "marriage is at its purest during the act of sex". It's very Aquinas in that it proceeds... well, sort of deductively from utterly bizarre premises. There's a lot of criticism that their attempts to stave off objections based on things like infertile couples are lame and extremely ad hoc.

    But I think that it is crazy for all of its strange further consequences - like the not even close to subtle implication that it is a women's duty to provide sex and it's extremely male centric...everything.

    Apothe0sis on
  • Magic PinkMagic Pink Tur-Boner-Fed Registered User regular
    edited June 2011
    FCD wrote: »
    MechMantis wrote: »
    FCD wrote: »
    MechMantis wrote: »
    I'm still not understanding the uproar about this.

    It's not like this position is an unknown, it's not like there aren't other organizations capable of taking care of adoptions, and it's not like the Catholic Charities are keeping those other organizations from operating.

    If anything the adoption services will no longer be beholden to two masters, which I'm fairly certain is a good thing.

    Again, the perils of leaving basic civil services in the hands of outside organizations with views that might be contrary to the views of the state.

    Yeah, in the short-run this is bad for adoptions, but in the long run it will lead to more tolerant, secular groups being in control of the process. I do find it amusing that Catholic Charities wanted a special exemption to keep discriminating against gay couples while on the government dime, and had the gaul to be offended when this was denied them. Give someone an inch and they'll take a mile, I guess.

    Except they discriminated against all non-married couples, regardless of orientation based on that argument. Of course, those in a heterosexual marriage could get married, but you see the point.

    And in a two-party contract, if one party finds the new terms unacceptable, well, they don't renew the contract. It's hardly having the gall to be offended it's "We find these new terms to be unacceptable, so we are ceasing our services."

    From what I read of the story, the CC asked for a specific amendment to the non-discrimination policy so that they could continue discriminating against gay couples, and then their spokeperson treated it as an attack on their religious beliefs when said amendment was denied. Here is the relevant quote from the ariticle that I am refering to:


    "When the law was passed, Catholic Charities and other religious and conservative groups pushed for an amendment that would allow faith-based organizations to "decline an adoption or foster family home application" to a couple in a civil union if "if acceptance of that application would constitute a violation of the organization's sincerely held religious beliefs." A Senate committee voted down the amendment in April, and a House committee did the same this week.

    "The law of our land has always guaranteed its people freedom of religion," Penny Wiegert, the Rockford Diocese's director of communication said in a statement. "Denying this exemption to faith-based agencies leads one to believe that our lawmakers prefer laws that guarantee freedom from religion. We simply can not compromise the spirit that motivates us to deliver quality, professional services to families by letting our state define our religious teachings."


    The amendment was voted down because THEY ALREADY HAD THE EXEMPTION because they're a religious institution. They didn't need two on the books; same situation as that crush video blow up about a year ago.

    Magic Pink on
  • durandal4532durandal4532 Registered User regular
    edited June 2011
    MechMantis wrote: »
    I will say though that when left to their own devices, the Catholic Charities are generally pretty awesome.

    but really, when you've got an organization working for you that's beholden to two masters, you and the very thing that created it, well...

    you can't be particularly surprised when the organization severs ties when you do something the second master doesn't like.
    That's basically what I said earlier.

    The problem with Catholic Charities is that they are (apparently) much more interested in being Catholic than giving charity.

    That's fine, but that does mean that they should in no way be relied upon as a major source of charitable work. There are other people, who don't mind providing services to everyone, who can be encouraged whether by government grants or private donation.

    durandal4532 on
    We're all in this together
  • MuddBuddMuddBudd Registered User regular
    edited June 2011
    Let me just re-iterate.

    I grew up in Rockford. I can guarantee you that they are shutting down because of gays. The whole "We can't refer people" thing is bullshit.

    I mean, this is a city that was dealing with a school desegregation lawsuit until well after 2001. It's all very small-town mindset.

    MuddBudd on
    There's no plan, there's no race to be run
    The harder the rain, honey, the sweeter the sun.
This discussion has been closed.