Jogging legs, ouch!

mellestad

So, I'm starting my annual, "It's Summer and I feel fat so it seems like a good idea to start a 5k program even though I'll never finish it and I'm going to die of a heart attack when I'm 40." plan.

So fine. One thing that keeps happening is the front of my calves burns like the dickens and tightens up like a pair of rocks almost immediately, and doesn't stop till a while after I stop jogging/walking/whatever. Once I make it to the third week or so of these programs it isn't my cardio that keeps me from advancing, it is that part of my legs that refuses to improve.

So. Is something wrong with my technique? Shoes? Am I just too heavy? Something else?

Forbe!

Front of your calves? Do you mean your shins? You could be developing shin splints, which is pretty common if you are starting a new running routine.

Qliphoth

This is probably caused by wearing bad shoes. Go to a running shoes specialist shop and get them to look at how you walk and recommend you a shoe.

Telex

It sounds like shin splints, which means you need to strengthen the muscles giving you trouble. Shin Splint exercises is a video of some good, light shin exercises. There are a whole bunch of other exercises you can do too. I recommend scrunching a towel up with your toes while seated, adding weight (ie books) to the end of the towel when that gets too easy.

It could also very well be a shoe issue, so I also recommend getting fitted by someone at a specialty running store.

RocketSauce

My shin splints were cause by my stride, particularly placing heel first, then toe. Once I modified my stride to be more on the ball of my foot, poof, leg pains went away. Stretching also helps.

Druhim

Honestly this just sounds like you're running too much too soon before your ligaments and joints are conditioned to it. Everyone's body is different, so there's no schedule that's going to work for everyone. But I'd recommend you stop running completely until any and all pain is gone, then very gradually experiment with jogging short intervals with short walk breaks in between, gradually and carefully increasing how long you're jogging in between walk breaks. Also if this is just something you're going to do for a few months every summer, I'd honestly recommend you not even bother. The benefit you'll see from a few months of working your way up to jogging just to give it up isn't really worth it and risks injury. Either find something lower impact like biking or swimming, or sack up and actually stick with your running long term so you actually see some benefit from it.

If you still want to jog, something like this may help you a great deal. But again, everyone's different and I'd use that schedule only as a guideline, not a hard rule. You may need to take it even slower, or it may be far too conservative for your needs. I'm just getting back into running after years of neglect (used to run long distance, did a couple of 50k races back in the day as well as a marathon - which is shorter than a 50k), and I've found the couch to 5k was a good starting point to cautiously get back into running, but the schedule is far too conservative for me.

And make sure you take at least one rest day between runs, especially starting out. If you're pushing yourself hard enough to actually become a better runner (but not so hard that you're actually hurting yourself) your body needs time to recover before you go back out and run again.

mellestad

So I went and looked at leg anatomy, and it is my
"Tibialis Anterior" muscle. It just feels like it gets overworked, like doing curls to exhaustion makes my bicep feel, only more 'tight'.

It just seems odd that this particular muscle gets hit so far, which is why I was wondering about stride/shoes.

So far I've got two votes for shoes, one vote for stride, and one vote for never run again because you'll die you filthy slacker.



Maybe I'll try to get some shoes. I just don't want to waste a hundred bucks or whatever if that doesn't do the trick. Hmm.

Druhim

Before you go out and try buying stuff to try and fix an unidentified problem, I'd really recommend that you take the simple step of just not running until the pain goes away, then getting into running more gradually to let your joints and ligaments actually get conditioned to the stress of running. And there's nothing odd about a particular part of your leg experiencing pain. That's normal in running stress related injuries, short term or long term. What would be odd would be if most of your leg hurt instead of a particular tendon, joint, or muscle group.

mellestad

Druhim wrote: »

Before you go out and try buying stuff to try and fix an unidentified problem, I'd really recommend that you take the simple step of just not running until the pain goes away, then getting into running more gradually to let your joints and ligaments actually get conditioned to the stress of running. And there's nothing odd about a particular part of your leg experiencing pain. That's normal in running stress related injuries, short term or long term. What would be odd would be if most of your leg hurt instead of a particular tendon, joint, or muscle group.

I'm not sure I can take any more time than I already do. It isn't like I'm pushing myself here, this starts 15 seconds into a light (60 on, 90 off, etc.) jog with 3 days worth of rest.

Ah well. I'll go ask on runners world, or track down a sports therapist. Thanks all!

Jimmy King

Oh man, I have the exact same problem. I can't run long enough to get any real exercise because my shins and ankles hurt too bad about 2 blocks down the road. After reading RocketSauce's post I went and looked at some videos of proper running form and it turns out I've been doing it wrong. I always thought you were supposed to land on the heel and roll when you're not sprinting, so I thought I was doing it right and my ankles just sucked and/or I was too large.

Good stuff. I'm going to try running on the treadmill rather than using the elliptical next cardio day at the gym.

Telex

The tibialus anterior is one of the muscles referred to when people talk about "shin splints," so the strengthening exercises provided above will still help, along with a stride analysis and the proper shoes. There are also some exercises targeted to that specific muscles.

Don't give up on running, though. I completely disagree with the person suggesting you don't try to run - the path of least resistance is not a rewarding way to live a life. Just take it slow and gradual and try not to quit once you get up to speed. Good luck.

Edit: Here is a website that offers ways of dealing with anterior shin splints

Buddy Lee

When I was in high school, I used to be very overweight. When I was quickly approaching the classification of being obese, I decided that it was time to change my lifestyle.

When I started running, I felt ridiculous. I felt sloppy. I felt that my form was terrible. It was painful. I didn't want to run outside because I knew that I looked like a fool. I had a big jiggly belly that looked like a giant jello jiggler when I ran.

But after I stuck with it for a while, it began being enjoyable. My form improved, and I stopped getting pains in my legs. My "shin splints" were actually just muscles and tendons being worked and getting stronger. However, I do remember my legs hurting a lot at the beginning of my runs until my muscles warmed up and my joints got loose.

A couple of tips:
1. Don't be afraid to run outside. Find a good running path and conquer it. I find that treadmills are boring and they screw up my stride.

2. Check out this video, which is on forefoot running:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b3Nt4WgQed8

This video shows the crazy amount of impact that our feet take when we run on our heels:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w6RaS_qx-ak&feature=related

The shock from that impact shoots up the leg, and eventually can wear down your knees, especially as you increase your running distance. Running shoes that have a cushy, built-up heel do absorb some of that impact, but as that cushion begins to wear down, you will feel more pain and you will have to buy a new pair of running shoes. However, with forefoot striking, the arch of your foot and your calf muscles absorb the impact, which is how they are naturally supposed to function. So I would recommend that you consider working towards forefoot striking. I definitely wish that I had when I started running 7 years ago.

Druhim

Telex wrote: »

The tibialus anterior is one of the muscles referred to when people talk about "shin splints," so the strengthening exercises provided above will still help, along with a stride analysis and the proper shoes. There are also some exercises targeted to that specific muscles.

Don't give up on running, though. I completely disagree with the person suggesting you don't try to run - the path of least resistance is not a rewarding way to live a life. Just take it slow and gradual and try not to quit once you get up to speed. Good luck.

Edit: Here is a website that offers ways of dealing with anterior shin splints

I said it's not worth it if he knows he's just going to quit in the fall. And I stand by that. Now, if he's being honest enough to recognize he hasn't stuck with it before, but wants to try and make it a long term habit, then yeah go for it! But if he's going into it knowing he's going to quit in a few months, then I maintain it's not worth the effort and can do more harm than good.

Karrmer

I can almost guarantee you that this is due to landing on your heel. Land on your front of your foot instead - to make this transition easier, I highly suggest running in Vibram Five Fingers.

Even in normal shoes, though, as long as you aren't heel smashing that pain will vanish.

Druhim

While forefoot striking can be great for many runners, I don't think we can assume it works for everyone, and it's also a transition that takes some time to get accustomed to. I've been running in FiveFingers for a couple of weeks now after walking in them for a couple of months to get used to them and it's gone well so far, but there's also probably a higher risk of injury if you're not careful compared to normal running shoes. So while I do really like my FiveFingers, I definitely don't feel they're for every or even most runners. My advice would be to stick to fundamentals and focus on ruling out simpler/less expensive solutions before forking out $80+ on FiveFingers.

Karrmer

I'd tend to side with the research and general opinion that barefoot running leaves you prone to far less injuries, honestly, and is how everyone should really be running.

see something like:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KRZvlQTTCMg

Notice that the guys heel almost never even touches the ground - that is basically how every professional sprinter or runner or whatever runs. This doesn't require buying Five Fingers - as this guy and most runners obviously aren't using them - but the Five Fingers (or just going barefoot) help train you to stop smashing your heel down.

also see
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XrOgDCZ4GUo

edit: Heel first running is the most common method of running, especially among beginning runners. In a heel first foot plant your forward foot is dorsi flexed and extended in front of your center of gravity. You land on your heel and your foot then rolls forward and pronates (rolls to the inside of your foot) You then must push off to generate your forward momentum. I see several problems with a heel first foot strike. First, since your foot strike is in front of your center of gravity you are "putting on the brakes" with every step. Many runners try to argue this point, but I see no way that you can possibly avoid some braking action when you are landing with your foot extended in front of your body. The braking effect interrupts your forward momentum, requires you to regenerate your momentum with a powerful push off and slows you down. The heel first landing also generates a lot of stress on your ankles, knees, hips and lower back. You are much more likely to suffer from a variety of running injuries when you use a heel first landing. A very common running injury that is caused, in part, by heel running, is shin splints. The heel first landing does two things. It causes your shin muscles to strongly activate in an attempt to keep the front of your foot from slapping down. The high amount of pronation also causes excessive stress on deeper shin muscles that act to prevent the rolling or pronation of your foot. It is that excessive stress on your lower leg muscles that cause shin splints.

^ pretty much agree with this

Druhim

OP, I would caution you to take the claims about barefoot running with a grain of salt. The medical community is by no means in consensus that barefoot running is better for all or even most runners. There's just not sufficient quality research to make that claim without plenty of caveats. And I'm speaking as someone who runs in Five Fingers, but the success some have had with barefoot running does not necessarily equate to it being the right option for most runners. A few studies indicating benefits from barefoot running do not "prove" that it's a good option for most runners, especially when other studies conflict with their findings. More research needs to be done, we just don't know enough at this point.

Rook

mellestad wrote: »

So I went and looked at leg anatomy, and it is my
"Tibialis Anterior" muscle. It just feels like it gets overworked, like doing curls to exhaustion makes my bicep feel, only more 'tight'.

It just seems odd that this particular muscle gets hit so far, which is why I was wondering about stride/shoes.

So far I've got two votes for shoes, one vote for stride, and one vote for never run again because you'll die you filthy slacker.



Maybe I'll try to get some shoes. I just don't want to waste a hundred bucks or whatever if that doesn't do the trick. Hmm.

My first recommendation when it comes to muscle pain and recovery would be a foam roller. (link link). The other thing would be to take ice cold bath/shower for the affected area.

Buddy Lee

Druhim wrote: »

OP, I would caution you to take the claims about barefoot running with a grain of salt. The medical community is by no means in consensus that barefoot running is better for all or even most runners. There's just not sufficient quality research to make that claim without plenty of caveats. And I'm speaking as someone who runs in Five Fingers, but the success some have had with barefoot running does not necessarily equate to it being the right option for most runners. A few studies indicating benefits from barefoot running do not "prove" that it's a good option for most runners, especially when other studies conflict with their findings. More research needs to be done, we just don't know enough at this point.

Research?! Seriously? What research needs to be done? All of the research that needs to be done can simply be done in a matter of minutes. Just look at the way that our bodies are.


1. Watch the slow motion video that I posted earlier... the one of somebody heel striking. Look at the impact that shoots up the leg. Impact that goes up the leg is bad. When the arch of the foot and the calf muscle of the leg absorbs the impact, it is not a problem, and that is how our bodies are meant to absorb impact.

Impact that is absorbed by muscles = Not harmful.

Impact that is absorbed by joints = Bad news bears.



2. What part of your lower leg has more muscle, the front of it or the back of it? When you heel strike, you are forcing the tibialis anterior muscles (on the front of your leg) to do work that they are not meant to do. When you forefoot strike, you work your numerous calf muscles on the back of your leg. It's just kinesthetically more sensible.


In fact, there is no better time for the OP to try forefoot striking than right now. Spoilered for long personal experiences:

In fact, the best time to begin forefoot running is when you begin running. Just before I started trying to forefoot run, I was working my way up to 7 or 8 miles every other day. My cardiovascular endurance was great, but my knees began to hurt and I began to get shin splints. I had just purchased new running shoes a month prior, and it didn't make sense that I would be having these pains.

I switched to forefoot running and I felt as light as a feather. I ran for 6 miles, then I stopped because my calf muscles were killing me. When you forefoot run, you use a lot of the fine muscles in your calves that aren't easy to work otherwise. I definitely overdid it with the six miles, and my muscles were sore for over a week. Frankly, I'm lucky that I didn't injure my Achilles tendon.

If you begin running heel-to-toe, then you decide to switch to forefoot running later on, you're going to have to start by running short distances again. This is frustrating if you have been working your way up to big distances.


As for Vibram FiveFingers, I'm not a huge fan of running in these. I really like wearing them casually in the summer, or for hiking, or swimming at a lake, but when I run in them on a running path or a sidewalk I always manage to step on a small rock and I run the risk of injuring myself. Granted, I am using the KOS style which is very minimalistic and offers no padding at all, but the point of FiveFingers is to be minimalistic. While I haven't tried running in the Bikila model or the KOS Trek model, I prefer running in Nike Free Runs, which do not have a built up heel but still have cushion to protect your feet.

tofu

Is it common to only have shin splints in one leg? Many times after I finish a run the inside of my right shin will bother me for a couple days, I always wait until it stops hurting to go out for another run but my left leg never gives me problems

Karrmer

That sort of thing can happen, tofu, for a variety of reasons.

Reality is that just about any time you ever have pain on your shin from running it is because you are heel striking, which is completely wrong. Watch those videos posted above, or just look at *ANY* video ever of any sort of professional runners (watch olympics - not just sprinting but olympic marathons, etc) and look at how they land on their feet. None of them heel strike because it doesn't make any sense as has already been discussed, is inefficient, causes injuries, and doesn't utilize the very large muscles in your legs designed for running.

Barefoot running may or may not be better than running with shoes - I'll admit that part is debatable, though I'd say the barefoot style is heavily favored as the better option, but what is NOT debatable is that heel striking is bad for you in every way and is not how anyone should run ever.

Hence, my suggestion for Five Fingers is not to say that you should necessarily run in them all the time, but rather that putting them on and going for a run will result in you RAPIDLY stopping your heel strike because it will hurt like shit. When you realize this, you'll see what we mean - fix your technique, and an enormous number of pains and issues will go away.

Niceguy Myeye

If you don't like the toesy look of the Vibrams, other companies make minimalist shoes.

Merrell makes a line of 'barefoot' runners, and I think I've seen some commercials for some minimalist shoes by Asics (I think they're called the piranha or something).

You can get the benefit without shoes that are as ugly. I haven't personally tried them, but they are an option.

Telex

Just want to emphasize that yes, heel striking is always bad, but special footwear is not required to correct it. The current "non-minimal" shoes are not designed for a heel-striking running motion, but because of the weight of the shoes and the general lack of muscle in people just starting to run, many people just start heel striking because it is easier and never stop. A minimal shoe will help you realize how crappy it is to heel-strike, and what it feels like to not heel strike, but you can midfoot-strike in any shoe. It's a matter of correcting form and buiilding up the muscles required to hold that form even when fatigued.

Generally, concentrate on dorsiflection (pointing your toes up), high knees, and a large back kick. Heel striking is caused by not engaging your quads and then reaching with your lower leg instead.

Buddy Lee

OP, I don't remember you talking about the shoes that you are using to run... are you using proper running shoes? Are they still in good shape or have they broken down?

I'm personally in the market for some new shoes and I'm buying a pair of Saucony Kinvara 2s.

Druhim

mellestad, if you're still reading this thread I'm not going to argue with Buddy. However he cannot legitimately make such assertions about barefoot running in good faith. Here's some excellent info about the subject from a lab at Harvard that is specifically studying this subject. Now, if you actually read all of the info on that site about barefoot running and forefoot striking, while there is lots of info about how to train for it and what the possible benefits might be they are also very clear to point out:

Please note that we present no data on how people should run, whether shoes cause some injuries, or whether barefoot running causes other kinds of injuries. We believe there is a strong need for controlled, prospective studies on these issues.

Is There Anything Wrong With Heel Striking in Running Shoes?

Not necessarily! Many people like to run this way and do so without injury. But some runners get repetitive stress injuries each year (estimates vary from 30-75%) and one hypothesis is that heel striking contributes to some of these injuries. We emphasize though, that no study has shown that heel striking contributes more to injury than forefoot striking. Read on to learn more about forefoot striking.

For millions of years, it is likely that runners landed with no single, specific foot strike, and rather landed with a variety of foot strikes including forefoot, midfoot and heel strikes, but we suspect that the most common form of foot strike was a forefoot strike. Midfoot strikes were probably also more common than they are today. These kinds of strikes (i.e. landing first on the lateral ball of the foot) lead to lower impact forces which may lead to lower rates of injury. We hypothesize and there is anecdotal evidence that forefoot or midfoot striking can help avoid and/or mitigate repetitive stress injuries, especially stress fractures, plantar fasciitis, and runner's knee. We emphasize, however, that this hypothesis on injury has yet to be tested and that there have been no direct studies on the efficacy of forefoot strike running or barefoot running on injury.

They are very clear that this is only a hypothesis they have regarding forefoot striking. Another very important point to keep in mind is that even if it's true that forefoot striking and barefoot running are superior, it takes a significant amount of time to safely train into it. You can't just learn barefoot running with forefoot striking in a week or two. It takes time for your body, especially your calves, to get accustomed to the changes in how the forces are being distributed. THIS IS NOT A QUICK FIX.

Buddy Lee

It seems to me like these disclaimers are written only because scientists discredit something that has been tested in a lab in such a short amount of time. Without longitudinal studies and multiple labs finding the same results, a scientific community will only be able to hypothesize. It seems pretty safe to me to assume that forefoot striking is the way that our bodies are intended to work.

And no, this is not a "quick fix," this is a beginning. In the beginning of any new exercise, one's muscles will be sore. Mellestad is beginning running, so whether he begins heel-toe running or forefoot running, his body will not be accustomed to how forces are being distributed. So why not begin by running in a manner that appears to be most effective?

Karrmer

I tested the hypothesis by stopping my heel strike technique and swapping to Vibrams. I did an 8 mile hike as my first attempt in "barefoot shoes" and my awful shin splints I had every single time vanished instantly. Never felt any pain in my shins since. Knee pain and lower back pain vanished too.

Many people I know had the same experience. I find it hard to believe that based on simple science of how the impact is delivered and what muscles are utilized (meaning, a heel strike uses your small shin muscles, a forefoot strike uses your calves, not really disputable) that a person wouldn't conclude that heel striking is going to cause shin pain, and is logically inefficient.

I just don't get what point you are trying to make at all, really. Are there any video of olympic athletes sprinting or running with the ridiculous heel strikes that people seem to think are OK? I've never seen one and I tried finding one. I'd guess there is a reason that all the professional athletes in the world whose careers are based around staying injury free and performing as perfectly as possible would tend to heavily avoid that style and favor another.

cooljammer00

When they say to run on the balls of your feet, is that like running on tiptoes? It just seems unnatural to me, but if it's the "right" way to do it, then I should probably start.

Vesty

Karrmer wrote: »

I just don't get what point you are trying to make at all, really. Are there any video of olympic athletes sprinting or running with the ridiculous heel strikes that people seem to think are OK? I've never seen one and I tried finding one. I'd guess there is a reason that all the professional athletes in the world whose careers are based around staying injury free and performing as perfectly as possible would tend to heavily avoid that style and favor another.

Are you only looking at Olympic sprinting? Back in my high school track days we were told you run on the balls of your feet when you're sprinting for speed, but if you're doing distance running then you want to land heel first and rock your feet. Not slam your heel down then the rest of your foot but arc the whole movement. And that shin splints were primarily the result of running flat footed. Granted this was years ago but I've always been under the assumption how you should run is determined by what kind of event you're running. Not necessarily one technique fits all.

Also this article brings up a study during a marathon where over 75% of the athletes struck heel first.

http://www.sportsscientists.com/2008/04/running-technique-footstrike.html

I think what the article is aiming for, and I agree, is that the idea of what's best is such a blanket term that is always changing. What works best for one person isn't always the best for another and you should do whatever works for you.

Buddy Lee

cooljammer00 wrote: »

When they say to run on the balls of your feet, is that like running on tiptoes? It just seems unnatural to me, but if it's the "right" way to do it, then I should probably start.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pgkWhcapWLU

This Kenyan kid has amazing form. Notice that there is no impact going to his knee.

The front of his foot hits the ground slightly before his heel does. The impact is absorbed by the arch of his foot and by his calves. When you run like this, you aren't running on your toes and it's not only the front ball of your foot that hits the ground.

When I began, I imagined that the front ball of my foot was one target for impact, and that my heel was another target for impact. The front target needs to hit the ground just before the back target does.

You might feel a little awkward running like this for a short while, but you should adjust to it pretty quickly.

TeeMan

Wow am I ever glad that I stumbled into this thread. I've just recently started jogging again after a few months hiatus (re: lazy) and I'm definitely heel-striking in my current technique. Looking forward to trying forefoot after work It's as if you're running on the spot and pushing back instead of reaching forward and drawing your foot all the way back... I can tell it's going to feel weird haha, but most things do feel weird at first when you're correcting improper technique.