1) He has nothing, and he's trying to steal. Happens a lot in my particular live games, I've noticed.
2) He has 3-X. I beat this handily.
3) He has 2-4 with a gut shot straight draw, and this is a semi-bluff. I beat this as well.
4) He has the nuts, and I lose.
5) He has A-X like me, and I'm about 50-50 win-lose.
6) He has a pocket pair that isn't 3s, and is betting for value with top two pair. I beat this easily, and this is the most common with a raise this size.
With checks all around the table and a pot-sized bet from someone, I was reasonably certain that nobody else had an ace besides me or him. The all-in bet was to make sure that he wasn't trying to steal, and also to make sure that if he did happen to have 3-X or was on a draw, he wouldn't call me. Since there was an extremely low chance that he has a better hand than me, this play is +EV every time in my book.
Now, preflop play. Everyone seems to think that folding A 8 offsuit in late position here is the play. Why? There is $72 in the pot and it costs me $12 to call and definitely see a flop with an $84 pot. That's 7-to-1 on my money and I'm in late position with a decent hand, I'd be an idiot NOT to call here. You claim that A8o is a marginal hand in a family pot, and that is definitely true, but with odds like that you can safely make that call all day, and every once in a while you will flop the nuts and win big. Every other time you can just play fit-and-fold and come out ahead.
^^^
This was my thought process during the hand. I don't know if it's correct, but it's how I have been trained to think so far by all the poker theory and books I've been reading.
Your problem pre-flop is that it is quite likely to play out just like it did. It's too tough to know where you're at with this hand. Again, if you're going to win you probably won't get much action, but if you lose you're likely to lose a lot.
So I think I might head to a $1/2 cash game tonight. My bankroll is only about $1000, how much of it should I bring? Around half? I'm not really sure. I want enough for multiple buy-ins, but I don't want to lose all of it in one night if I'm getting unlucky. I'm not usually one to tilt, if I'm down I usually just think to myself either I need to play better, or that's variance. What do you guys think?
Edit: Max buy-in is 300, I plan on buying in for 200.
500 is good, you never commit your entire bankroll to one game, and buying in for 200, given how loose your game seems to be, is what I'd do too. Personally, if my bankroll was that low that you're still committing a fair percentage of it to a single game, you might want to reconsider how many buy-ins you bring, but again, your game seems so full of loose players that you need to have a larger stack to be able to play at all, and at least one rebuy to deal with sick beats.
I'm not helping at all, am I.
From personal experience, I've usually brought $100 to a 1/2 game, and once as low as 60, with maybe one rebuy for the session, but I'm a tighter player and don't play as many hands as the average player.
411Randle on
1) Silence 2) Books must be returned by the last date shown 3) Do not interfere with the nature of causality
As much as I'd love to have a bankroll that large, I just don't. Considering I'm a US player and online poker is not an option, the lowest stakes I can play at are 1/2. I'll just keep playing and trying to build up my bankroll, and if I lose it, I'll have to build it up again. There's not many options for learning the game at this point, reading books and browsing forums can only do so much for me. I need to play the game to learn, and if I have to do it with a severely anemic bankroll, that's what I have to do. Plus, it's a lot of fun :P
I was a few points short of a VIP level on pokerstars, with the deadline today so I decided to quickly play a 100NL .50/$1 table (I normally stick to multi-tabling 10NL or 6-max 25NL) Within the first few hands I pick up AA, QQ and JJ. The JJ actually sets on the flop and my opponent doubled me up thanks to him going all in with KK on the turn. You've got to appreciate luck when it comes your way.
A healthy bankroll is considered to be at least enough to cover 20 max buy ins.
Whoa there turbo! You do not need anything even close to as absurdly much as $6000(!) to play a $1-$2 game!
Methinks you need a little more reading say; here.
$100 is a very comfortable buy-in for a $1-$2 table. If you want to be able to make a few more plays at pots make it $150 and bring $450 to have three buy-ins. The whole max buy-in idea is myths-ville, although popular, and the idea that you need 20 (20!!!) max buy-ins to play a table is off the charts non-sensical. As long as you have enough to play with, having more money at the table confers no advantage in a cash game.
The amount of money you're willing to commit to poker definitely is important. i'm not saying you need to take the entire bankrokk with you to a casino but if you only have $100 and you bring it all to the table it adds a psychological disadvantage to your game. some may second guess themselves knowing that if the hand doesn't work out you're fucked. 20BI aren't necessary before you sit down but its certainly recommended.
The amount of money you're willing to commit to poker definitely is important. i'm not saying you need to take the entire bankrokk with you to a casino but if you only have $100 and you bring it all to the table it adds a psychological disadvantage to your game. some may second guess themselves knowing that if the hand doesn't work out you're fucked. 20BI aren't necessary before you sit down but its certainly recommended.
You're completely mission the point MentalExercise. You don't bring 20BI to a game, you want 20BI for the level you're at the handle variance since it's not at all uncommon to lose multiple buyins and 20 should give a comfortable buffer so that not matter how bad you run you'll be able to play. However I don't think the whole thing is really applicable to recreational players and live poker is quite a bit different than online so you can get away with having less of a bankroll.
The hand:
You post more reasoning, but it doesn't actually make sense. If he has options 1-3 then he folds, option 4 loses you $250. and option 5 maybe be 50/50 in hands but I don't think his actual hand is weighted that way and he could fold lower aces. Basically by going allin you're putting yourself in a spot where he folds everything you beat and calls when you lose so you're really throwing away the $190. This play is not in anyway +EV, and is actually horribly -EV.
Preflop: You talk about pot odds of 7-1, but pot odds don't reflect the whole hand unless you know you win with it. If this was an allin for the $12 from everyone then the pot odds make perfect sense to call, but you still have to play three more streets and in this case you're almost always going to get in a spot where you either win a small pot or lose a big one.
You're completely mission the point MentalExercise. You don't bring 20BI to a game, you want 20BI for the level you're at the handle variance since it's not at all uncommon to lose multiple buyins and 20 should give a comfortable buffer so that not matter how bad you run you'll be able to play. However I don't think the whole thing is really applicable to recreational players and live poker is quite a bit different than online so you can get away with having less of bankroll.
I don't think you're tracking here. We're not talking online, and we're not talking entire bankroll. The man asked how much money he should bring tonight for a live $1-$2 no-limit cash game. $500 should be quite comfortable, especially since his entire bankroll is only a grand.
Ugh, I lost all 500 tonight. Biggest cooler I've ever seen. My queens ran into aces, every time I had top pair top kicker, someone else had a set. The last bad beat of the night, I had top pair top kicker, no straight or flush draws on the board, I bet the size of the pot on the turn which puts my last 100 in with 2 players left, fish calls me with second pair low kicker and hits a set on the river.
Spawnbroker on
Steam: Spawnbroker
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Powerpuppiesdrinking coffee in themountain cabinRegistered Userregular
edited June 2011
brutal
Remember losing all you brought doesn't mean you did anything wrong. This is the reason for big bankrolls, is sometimes that shit is unavoidable.
Remember losing all you brought doesn't mean you did anything wrong. This is the reason for big bankrolls, is sometimes that shit is unavoidable.
No I definitely did something wrong. The one huge mistake I can remember tonight was my queens hand:
I got pocket queens, and I flat call in early position. Someone in mid position raises to $7. Calls all around back to me, 8 players so far. I 3-bet to $30, and the guy who initially raised 4-bets me to $70. I shoved here, and he obviously called with Aces.
Instead of shoving when I get 4-bet with Q Q, I think a better option is just to call and see a flop, then check-fold the hand if I don't see a queen. Nobody is going to be 4-betting me at $1/2 unless they have kings or aces, or they are fucking crazy, which will be really easy to spot.
Anyways, that's the big mistake I made tonight from what I can tell. Other than that, I really can't think of anything. At least I learned something
Remember losing all you brought doesn't mean you did anything wrong. This is the reason for big bankrolls, is sometimes that shit is unavoidable.
No I definitely did something wrong. The one huge mistake I can remember tonight was my queens hand:
I got pocket queens, and I flat call in early position. Someone in mid position raises to $7. Calls all around back to me, 8 players so far. I 3-bet to $30, and the guy who initially raised 4-bets me to $70. I shoved here, and he obviously called with Aces.
Instead of shoving when I get 4-bet with Q Q, I think a better option is just to call and see a flop, then check-fold the hand if I don't see a queen. Nobody is going to be 4-betting me at $1/2 unless they have kings or aces, or they are fucking crazy, which will be really easy to spot.
Anyways, that's the big mistake I made tonight from what I can tell. Other than that, I really can't think of anything. At least I learned something
I think that analysis is pretty accurate. At a loose table I can't think of a better way to play that pre-flop really. Anyone else have any ideas?
MentalExercise on
"More fish for Kunta!"
--LeVar Burton
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Powerpuppiesdrinking coffee in themountain cabinRegistered Userregular
edited June 2011
don't call a $40 raise with $30 in the pot if you're going to check-fold anything but a set. Raise or fold, imo.
don't call a $40 raise with $30 in the pot if you're going to check-fold anything but a set. Raise or fold, imo.
Hmm... We're looking at what, $40 to call and about $120 in the pot? Yeah, calling to check-fold the flop probably isn't a great move. Maybe a call and then push on the flop if anything less than A or K comes... But I think you're right. As tough as it could be to get away from that hand, that may have been the play. Even A-K is an unlikely three bet there probably. Hmmm I'm undecided.
The only chance you really had to get away from the hand was the re-raise to $70, and at that point you can really only fold if you put him on exactly AA or KK. They always say "fourth raise is Aces or Kings", but that's not true for everyone, and I've seen it be as low as 10s or AK from looser players. Realistically, if you're not putting them on Aces or Kings on the re-raise (and when you have QQ, it's hard to put them on one of the two hands that have you crushed, especially in a cash game), you're just basically doomed from go.
411Randle on
1) Silence 2) Books must be returned by the last date shown 3) Do not interfere with the nature of causality
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Powerpuppiesdrinking coffee in themountain cabinRegistered Userregular
edited June 2011
I'm okay with either the push or the fold, really. Kings i push for sure, Jacks I fold...I can see just enough boneheads re-raising with AQ or JJ or something hoping to get to heads up to make pushing with the queens worth my time. Would have to be an odd table, though.
Am I the only one not liking the flat call to begin with? IMO if you flat call with Queens you've got to then fold to the $70 re-raise. By flat calling and reraising you've made the statement "I've got a decent pocket pair or I'm a ballsey, ballsey bluffer" and by rereraising you your opponent has said "I've got a great pocket pair or I'm far more ballsey than you at bluffing".
With QQ in early position I like to raise immediately to see where I am and escape cheaply if I don't like the smell. Although I mostly play SnG rather than cash games.
Am I the only one not liking the flat call to begin with? IMO if you flat call with Queens you've got to then fold to the $70 re-raise. By flat calling and reraising you've made the statement "I've got a decent pocket pair or I'm a ballsey, ballsey bluffer" and by rereraising you your opponent has said "I've got a great pocket pair or I'm far more ballsey than you at bluffing".
With QQ in early position I like to raise immediately to see where I am and escape cheaply if I don't like the smell. Although I mostly play SnG rather than cash games.
I feel like slow playing anything preflop in a 1/2 game with people you haven't played tens of thousands of hands with is generally bad. At 1/2, you're going to get calls from enough players with bad hands who will make mistakes postflop that you shouldn't have trouble getting paid. In low level games with bad players, you should always be looking to get your money in the pot while you're ahead, which you almost always are with QQ preflop. A large portion of your winnings should be coming from getting those bad players to chase draws at a bad price or top pair when you've got an overpair. Slowplaying here just gives them free cards.
The other "rule" about these games is that most people are weak/passive until they've got a monster. Watch their tendencies. If they fit that mold and then 4bet you preflop, GTFO. If a weak/passive 1/2 player is playing back at you and you don't have the nuts, it should be pretty easy to find a fold.
Omaha Hi, final four out of 20...I'm second lowest chip stack.
I'm big blind and I get 9,3,6,4 rainbow. I was going to fold if anyone raised but one did. So here comes the flop.
9,9,2 also a rainbow.
I push all in.
Fold, fold, and then a call.
This guy throws down a pair of aces he had in the hole...what comes on the turn? an Ace.
With bad beats, I just look at the cards preflop. post flop, yes that's unlucky but it was more lucky to have hit such a decent flop with those cards. That's poker for you.
Bad-Beat on
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Powerpuppiesdrinking coffee in themountain cabinRegistered Userregular
edited June 2011
A) that is not what a bad beat means. There's a lot of swirl about what constitutes a bad beat, but nobody thinks it's when you have good cards preflop and still lose. From wiki:
The player who wins via a bad beat is rewarded for mathematically unsound play. Calling a bet despite having neither the best hand nor the right pot odds or implied odds to call, then winning anyway, is characteristic of this type of bad beat.
edit: Your way of looking at it would call it a bad beat if I limp with AK and someone hits top pair with a 9 and wins the hand. It seems to make the term bad beat useless if it's no longer a contrast to losing through poor play. I missed the flat call with QQ, I also don't like that play. Does it make a difference, though? If Spawn raises to $7 or thereabouts, and the other guy brings it up to $30, is that any easier to fold?
I missed the flat call with QQ, I also don't like that play. Does it make a difference, though? If Spawn raises to $7 or thereabouts, and the other guy brings it up to $30, is that any easier to fold?
Depends on how many people call the $7 before the $30 play is made. although I see what you are saying - that could actually be harder to walk away from than the $70 re-re-raise. Just shows the peril of playing out of position I suppose.
I've seen people fold KK after a four-bet. It really depends on what hand you're putting him on based on his previous plays. Even if you put him on AK, people justify it because they also pay attention to stack size in relation to the pot and don't want to get sucked out and lose a big portion of their stack, but that generally only applies to tournaments with no rebuys.
I missed the flat call with QQ, I also don't like that play. Does it make a difference, though? If Spawn raises to $7 or thereabouts, and the other guy brings it up to $30, is that any easier to fold?
Depends on how many people call the $7 before the $30 play is made. although I see what you are saying - that could actually be harder to walk away from than the $70 re-re-raise. Just shows the peril of playing out of position I suppose.
At the end of the day if someone dominates your QQ preflop your stack is probably in pretty serious danger regardless of your position. Luck of the draw.
I think my most fun hands are the ones where everything you do is matched by another player. You check, they check; you raise, they call; they raise, you call. And then you turn your cards over and you have the same hand. All that effort for a push, you'd think I'd feel let down, but no.
Druk on
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Powerpuppiesdrinking coffee in themountain cabinRegistered Userregular
I think my most fun hands are the ones where everything you do is matched by another player. You check, they check; you raise, they call; they raise, you call. And then you turn your cards over and you have the same hand. All that effort for a push, you'd think I'd feel let down, but no.
A) that is not what a bad beat means. There's a lot of swirl about what constitutes a bad beat, but nobody thinks it's when you have good cards preflop and still lose. From wiki:
The player who wins via a bad beat is rewarded for mathematically unsound play. Calling a bet despite having neither the best hand nor the right pot odds or implied odds to call, then winning anyway, is characteristic of this type of bad beat.
edit: Your way of looking at it would call it a bad beat if I limp with AK and someone hits top pair with a 9 and wins the hand. It seems to make the term bad beat useless if it's no longer a contrast to losing through poor play.
If a hand is a big statistical favourite preflop and then loses, that's a bad beat to me. Don't really mind if I'm wrong, it has no bearing on the game itself.
No, the most fun hands (actually hand singular, I've only done this once) are when you take the high side of a PLO8 pot with Ace frikin' high 3-way. Oh yeah, baby. Oh yeah.
So, I think wearing sunglasses at the poker table is cheesing. Why not just go the whole way and wear a ski mask or motorcycle helmet while you're at it? Maybe play from behind a two-way mirror, or using a remote-controlled robot.
Why are players expected to control everything else that could be a tell - shaking hands, breathing rate, flop sweat, etc - except for anything eye-related?
So at the Texas tourneys I'm playing I see a lot of people staying in with 4,6 offsuit or 7,9 or 2,3 or King, little buddy or Q, 4 suited....can someone please explain to me if this is common practice?
So at the Texas tourneys I'm playing I see a lot of people staying in with 4,6 offsuit or 7,9 or 2,3 or King, little buddy or Q, 4 suited....can someone please explain to me if this is common practice?
Common, yes. Good? Usually not, but depends on the players and the situation.
msh1283 on
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Powerpuppiesdrinking coffee in themountain cabinRegistered Userregular
So, I think wearing sunglasses at the poker table is cheesing. Why not just go the whole way and wear a ski mask or motorcycle helmet while you're at it? Maybe play from behind a two-way mirror, or using a remote-controlled robot.
Posts
Your problem pre-flop is that it is quite likely to play out just like it did. It's too tough to know where you're at with this hand. Again, if you're going to win you probably won't get much action, but if you lose you're likely to lose a lot.
--LeVar Burton
Edit: Max buy-in is 300, I plan on buying in for 200.
I'm not helping at all, am I.
From personal experience, I've usually brought $100 to a 1/2 game, and once as low as 60, with maybe one rebuy for the session, but I'm a tighter player and don't play as many hands as the average player.
Many people recommend having a bankroll large enough to cover 50 buy ins. For a typical 1-2 dollar game, that's $10,000.
I was a few points short of a VIP level on pokerstars, with the deadline today so I decided to quickly play a 100NL .50/$1 table (I normally stick to multi-tabling 10NL or 6-max 25NL) Within the first few hands I pick up AA, QQ and JJ. The JJ actually sets on the flop and my opponent doubled me up thanks to him going all in with KK on the turn. You've got to appreciate luck when it comes your way.
Whoa there turbo! You do not need anything even close to as absurdly much as $6000(!) to play a $1-$2 game!
Methinks you need a little more reading say; here.
$100 is a very comfortable buy-in for a $1-$2 table. If you want to be able to make a few more plays at pots make it $150 and bring $450 to have three buy-ins. The whole max buy-in idea is myths-ville, although popular, and the idea that you need 20 (20!!!) max buy-ins to play a table is off the charts non-sensical. As long as you have enough to play with, having more money at the table confers no advantage in a cash game.
--LeVar Burton
I gotta ask, by who?
--LeVar Burton
The hand:
You post more reasoning, but it doesn't actually make sense. If he has options 1-3 then he folds, option 4 loses you $250. and option 5 maybe be 50/50 in hands but I don't think his actual hand is weighted that way and he could fold lower aces. Basically by going allin you're putting yourself in a spot where he folds everything you beat and calls when you lose so you're really throwing away the $190. This play is not in anyway +EV, and is actually horribly -EV.
Preflop: You talk about pot odds of 7-1, but pot odds don't reflect the whole hand unless you know you win with it. If this was an allin for the $12 from everyone then the pot odds make perfect sense to call, but you still have to play three more streets and in this case you're almost always going to get in a spot where you either win a small pot or lose a big one.
I don't think you're tracking here. We're not talking online, and we're not talking entire bankroll. The man asked how much money he should bring tonight for a live $1-$2 no-limit cash game. $500 should be quite comfortable, especially since his entire bankroll is only a grand.
--LeVar Burton
Remember losing all you brought doesn't mean you did anything wrong. This is the reason for big bankrolls, is sometimes that shit is unavoidable.
No I definitely did something wrong. The one huge mistake I can remember tonight was my queens hand:
I got pocket queens, and I flat call in early position. Someone in mid position raises to $7. Calls all around back to me, 8 players so far. I 3-bet to $30, and the guy who initially raised 4-bets me to $70. I shoved here, and he obviously called with Aces.
Instead of shoving when I get 4-bet with Q Q, I think a better option is just to call and see a flop, then check-fold the hand if I don't see a queen. Nobody is going to be 4-betting me at $1/2 unless they have kings or aces, or they are fucking crazy, which will be really easy to spot.
Anyways, that's the big mistake I made tonight from what I can tell. Other than that, I really can't think of anything. At least I learned something
I think that analysis is pretty accurate. At a loose table I can't think of a better way to play that pre-flop really. Anyone else have any ideas?
--LeVar Burton
Hmm... We're looking at what, $40 to call and about $120 in the pot? Yeah, calling to check-fold the flop probably isn't a great move. Maybe a call and then push on the flop if anything less than A or K comes... But I think you're right. As tough as it could be to get away from that hand, that may have been the play. Even A-K is an unlikely three bet there probably. Hmmm I'm undecided.
--LeVar Burton
With QQ in early position I like to raise immediately to see where I am and escape cheaply if I don't like the smell. Although I mostly play SnG rather than cash games.
I made a game, it has penguins in it. It's pay what you like on Gumroad.
Currently Ebaying Nothing at all but I might do in the future.
I feel like slow playing anything preflop in a 1/2 game with people you haven't played tens of thousands of hands with is generally bad. At 1/2, you're going to get calls from enough players with bad hands who will make mistakes postflop that you shouldn't have trouble getting paid. In low level games with bad players, you should always be looking to get your money in the pot while you're ahead, which you almost always are with QQ preflop. A large portion of your winnings should be coming from getting those bad players to chase draws at a bad price or top pair when you've got an overpair. Slowplaying here just gives them free cards.
The other "rule" about these games is that most people are weak/passive until they've got a monster. Watch their tendencies. If they fit that mold and then 4bet you preflop, GTFO. If a weak/passive 1/2 player is playing back at you and you don't have the nuts, it should be pretty easy to find a fold.
Omaha Hi, final four out of 20...I'm second lowest chip stack.
I'm big blind and I get 9,3,6,4 rainbow. I was going to fold if anyone raised but one did. So here comes the flop.
9,9,2 also a rainbow.
I push all in.
Fold, fold, and then a call.
This guy throws down a pair of aces he had in the hole...what comes on the turn? an Ace.
Being beaten all in by a player with 2 outs? That beat is fairly bad, it's not like Shawnasee limped in or pushed with that crap pre-flop.
I made a game, it has penguins in it. It's pay what you like on Gumroad.
Currently Ebaying Nothing at all but I might do in the future.
Depends on how many people call the $7 before the $30 play is made. although I see what you are saying - that could actually be harder to walk away from than the $70 re-re-raise. Just shows the peril of playing out of position I suppose.
I made a game, it has penguins in it. It's pay what you like on Gumroad.
Currently Ebaying Nothing at all but I might do in the future.
It could be worse.
At the end of the day if someone dominates your QQ preflop your stack is probably in pretty serious danger regardless of your position. Luck of the draw.
heh
If a hand is a big statistical favourite preflop and then loses, that's a bad beat to me. Don't really mind if I'm wrong, it has no bearing on the game itself.
I made a game, it has penguins in it. It's pay what you like on Gumroad.
Currently Ebaying Nothing at all but I might do in the future.
You have 86532 and your opponent has 86542.
Why are players expected to control everything else that could be a tell - shaking hands, breathing rate, flop sweat, etc - except for anything eye-related?
Common, yes. Good? Usually not, but depends on the players and the situation.
or on the internet