Company going bust - what are my rights? [updated]
Floofy
Registered User regular
Registered User regular
Hi there-
I work as a graphic designer for a small family run design/print business (as the only non-family member). For the past couple of months, work has been extremely dead, and the firm's ran up huge debts with its printing suppliers, meaning that work it does have ready to go to print, it can't go ahead with/get payment for because it can't be completed. This afternoon everyone else had left the office but me and the owner's son (we get along pretty well) and he confided in me that he suspects the company will be forced to close in weeks, days if unlucky.
I basically want to know what my rights are/what I should expect as an employee should everything go tits-up.
I'm in the UK- will I be able to claim benefits etc straight off the bat if it collapses entirely? What happens in terms of wages for this month if it ends before then? Is this likely to cause me problems job hunting if it collapses and there's no company to get a reference from?
I have no savings, this was my first job out of uni, and I'm pretty scared right now.
I work as a graphic designer for a small family run design/print business (as the only non-family member). For the past couple of months, work has been extremely dead, and the firm's ran up huge debts with its printing suppliers, meaning that work it does have ready to go to print, it can't go ahead with/get payment for because it can't be completed. This afternoon everyone else had left the office but me and the owner's son (we get along pretty well) and he confided in me that he suspects the company will be forced to close in weeks, days if unlucky.
I basically want to know what my rights are/what I should expect as an employee should everything go tits-up.
I'm in the UK- will I be able to claim benefits etc straight off the bat if it collapses entirely? What happens in terms of wages for this month if it ends before then? Is this likely to cause me problems job hunting if it collapses and there's no company to get a reference from?
I have no savings, this was my first job out of uni, and I'm pretty scared right now.
Floofy on
0
Posts
Start looking for another job. If you haven't submitted 5 applications before you go to bed tonight, you're failing.
Seriously, find a new job asap. You can't get blood from a stone, and even if you're entitled to the month's pay there is no guarantee you'll actually get it.
Go go go.
fuck up once and you break your thumb / if you're happy at all then you're god damn dumb
that's right we're on a fucked up cruise / God is dead but at least we have booze
bad things happen, no one knows why / the sun burns out and everyone dies
A.) I assume the NHS applies to you, and you don't need any COBRA-style insurance stopgaps? If not, look into that as soon as you're done sending out apps.
B.) Get the personal contact information of your supervisor or manager who you think could provide a good reference. At most companies, you can supply that even when neither of you work for that company anymore.
C.) Seriously, start applying. If the firm recovers, you can retract your name before the second interview without any hard feelings.
Step two: Update you resume' See if you can use a professor from your Uni if need be or ask a higher up if they're willing to give you a cell phone number.
Step three: Start applying for jobs ASAP. Your friend at the company did you a favor by giving you a heads up.
Step four: Look up the procedure for applying for Unemployment in the UK. And be ready for the paperwork on that.
Step Five: Look over your monthly expenses and see where you can cut out somethings. Start doing this soon.
I am not a lawyer and I don't know UK law, but from experience I've heard that once a company goes belly up don't expect them to pay you any money they owe you. Good luck
Directgov benefits adviser
Going to guess that you're going to qualify for Jobseeker's Allowance, possibly housing benefit if you aren't going to be able to meet any rent/mortgage obligations.
You may be entitled to redundancy pay depending on how long you've worked there, and on what basis. f your employer is insolvent and can't pay there is a government fund that may meet that obligation, but I'm not 100% on the details.
Do you have a Citizen's Advice Bureau nearby? They're probably the best people to fill you in on what you're entitled to and how to claim it.
As for the rest of your questions:
You can start claiming jobseekers allowance the same day as you are out of a job - do so. In fact, this should be the very first thing you do. Jobseekers allowance claims can be backdated to the day you lost your job, but it's so many extra hoops to jump through that you are safer getting your application in literally the same day.
You can apply online here: http://www.direct.gov.uk/en/Diol1/DoItOnline/DG_178228 or phone 0800 055 6688
Also apply for housing benefit at the same time (its on the same online form, or ask about it if you phone up) - this usually takes much longer to get processed but is backdated and will save you a fortune in rent/council tax if you are out of work for a substantial length of time.
The JSA application is fairly quick to do, but you'll have to go in for 2-3 meetings at your local jobcentre before you start recieving anything - whole process takes about 2 weeks depending on how busy your local jobcentre is. JSA is currently just under £100 a week. Housing benefit varies depending on your household.
You will also be due redundancy pay - this will be any wages still owed to you, plus a minimum of 1 week of pay for every full year you have worked there (assuming you are over 21). If your company pays you this, fantastic. If not, you will need to claim it off National Insurance - lots of details here: http://www.direct.gov.uk/en/Employment/RedundancyAndLeavingYourJob/Redundancy/DG_10029836
Gist of it is though that if your company goes bankrupt/into liquidation, an insolvency practioner/soliciter/liquidator will be called in to oversee the divvying up of the companies assets. They should issue you with an RP1 form which you use to apply for any pay/redundancy owed. Get this form completed and sent in ASAP as it can take anything up to 8 weeks to be processed.
You may also be due notice pay - if so the insolvency practioner will post you out the form to fill in approx 6 weeks after the company goes under - if not you can get it here (form RP2): http://www.insolvency.gov.uk/forms/rpforms.htm
Notice pay is basically a weeks pay at your current salary for each full year (up to 8) you have worked there, minus any money you have earned in the meantime (including jobseekers allowance, wages from new job etc).
Be warned, even if you have been with the company a long long while and are due a big whack of wages/redundancy pay/notice pay, start saving as much money as you can now and apply for Jobseekers and Housing benefit as soon as the shit hits the fan (do not be embarrassed or ashamed for doing so either - it all comes from your national insurance money anyway). It can take months to recieve any of it, so money will be extremely tight, especially if your employer stiffs you on your last months wages.
Hope this helps.
This is crazy unethical. Don't do this.
What? How is this unethical? It'd be one thing if he was leaving a strong company and trying to steal their clients out from under them. (Even then that's a grey area. It's business, man.) But Floofy's company isn't even going to exist anymore. If the clients like Floofy's work and want to keep working with him/her who's that going to hurt? Heck you might be able to wrangle up some freelance work with them, too.
I mean, I guess it all comes down to Floofy's relationship with the clients. Yeah, a giant list of every client wouldn't be good, just cause that's not really a sales lead if Floofy hasn't worked with them.
fuck up once and you break your thumb / if you're happy at all then you're god damn dumb
that's right we're on a fucked up cruise / God is dead but at least we have booze
bad things happen, no one knows why / the sun burns out and everyone dies
That's a subject that should be brought up between the OP and the company owners when and if the doors close. He can't just go taking clients that may belong to others in the company or have been promised to others in the company when the shit hits the fan.
Still though, if the doors do close, you should definitely talk to your boss about taking a few of the clients you've worked with personally just to keep you afloat while you job hunt.
If you're going to start stealing customer contacts, why not just start stealing equipment and cash? If you're going to steal becase you feel you are entitled, then go big or go home.
In other words, what Deebaser said.
Yeah, taking customer contacts on the sly would definitely be a wrong thing to do, but doing it on the up and up might be a great thing.
--LeVar Burton
a) Tonight I've been updating my portfolio and re-doing my CV & work sampler promo materials, managed to find about four suitable jobs and applied to all.
b) Thanks for the information on my entitlements re: wages, will bare it in mind
This has been on the cards for a little while, so it wasn't a total shock to get a full picture of how bad things were today. This month, for instance, they were terrible with my wages, and didn't pay me the full amount until the 15th of the month, which has caused all sorts of cashflow problems for myself personally.
Regarding clients, I'm certainly not going to filch any details, but there are a few clients who I've built up a personal working relationship with, who always request me specifically when they come in for work. In these cases, I'm intending to send out a general 'I've left position X, if you still want to keep in contact in future, here's my contact and web portfolio'. No aggressive selling or poaching, and nothing specific about the company going down, just staying in contact with the specific ones that I've developed a strong rapport with. Unless that still sounds like an unethical/gray area?
Debate as to whether or not this action is ethical aside, I've personally witnessed people taken to court over the unauthorized copying of customer contact lists and other business files. I have sat in front of a notary and signed affidavits detailing what these people copied. Granted - in that situation the company was not going out of business, but the OP's company hasn't formally confirmed that they are, either. It's all just speculation at this point. Informed speculation perhaps, but speculation.
I'm not saying the OP shouldn't prepare a little networking asset in the near-term. By all means, keep track of a short list of clients that you have a good relationship with, and if the company does go tits-up, reach out to them for references, open positions, and/or freelance work. But wholesale copying CUSTOMERS.XLS off the company server to your flash drive before they've even announced they're shutting their doors could very well be legally actionable - (IANAL and IANIUK).
e: Floofy, your last para sounds perfect. Just don't send it from your work email of course
This is so incredibly wrong on all counts.
@Doc Customer data is often monetized after a business closes. Gary's Graphix Shack might be interested in knowing that the local CYO softball league needs someone to print their flyers now.
OP, apply for jobs, don't steal shit from your boss. It doesn't matter whether it's "physical goods" or not.
With regards to taking data, well, yes, it could get you into some trouble. You would be breaching confidentiality for one and an argument could be made you are breaching Data Protection principles. Your employer, if they are still about, would be entitled to take action of some kind.
Fair enough, I'll revise it to "make sure to remember customers that you personally interacted with. If they were pleased with your work, there's no harm in letting them know that you're available for freelance."
Firstly when a business goes tits up all the assets are sold off and the profits given to the debtors. I'm pretty sure outstanding pay to employees is one of the last things to be paid off in this process. So if the company has no money at all I'm sorry but it's unlikely you'll be paid.
Secondly there should be no problem with you claiming benefits right away. The only way you can't claim is if you've been fired or if you've got a redundancy package to live off for a while. Neither seem to apply to you.
Good luck and take the advice here, apply for jobs ASAP.
Acting like a child doesn't make you any less wrong, but since you're just being adament in your ignorance and terrible advice I'll break it down for you (and Floofy, in case he's considering this poorly thought out course of action):
Stealing is stealing. There are things other than "physical goods" that can be stolen. Violations of the law are everyone's business, aren't they?
That isn't what anyone is talking about. As a refresher the suggestion was:
This is extremely unethical. The OP could easily be sued and potentially lose his unemployment benefits (Definitely in most US states, not sure about the UK) if he is caught.
He should most certainly not listen to your advice.
I mean yea, I wouldn't bring over the companies entire client list, but knowing who you have a good relationship is more on the up and up.
Bringing clients that you have a strong relationship with over to another firm and outright stealing contact information are two different things. You're being belligerently ignorant.
Protip: Any advice that could land you in court or get you fired for gross misconduct is bad advice.
That is the right way to do it.
:^:
Those of you suggesting he steal information to cover losses? I have seen people successfully sued over this. Do not advise people to steal anything in this forum ever.
I don't know much about UK bankruptcy law, but a few minutes of googling came up with this information. It looks like the "Redundancy Payment Services" will pay you some of your owed wages out of a general insurance fund. The RPS then becomes a creditor of the company for that amount. Anything in excess of that amount though, you're just a general creditor to the bankruptcy estate. You should probably call the number listed on that website for more info, though.
Things are getting progressively worse, to the extent I'm almost thinking it could collapse at the end of this week, start of next. Some guys came in today to demand payment for outstanding debts. My boss was in but told someone to tell them he was stuck in a meeting; unfortunately our office is extremely quiet, and they quickly sussed it was a pack of lies to try to get them to leave, and started shouting & swearing, overturned a couple of tables and generally raged until he finally came out and talked to them.
The atmosphere's incredibly stressful and bleak; every half hour or so costumers are ringing to chase up on label and print orders, orders which aren't getting done because no supplier will complete jobs for the company any more because of all the outstanding debts. I keep getting stuck in a position where I have to lie and tell them somebody will get back to them, or so-and-so's out of the office, etc etc, and as a result have been on the receiving end of a heap of verbal abuse/stress.
At the same time, there's very little actual work to be done; the design intern almost left at lunchtime because all the work was done and dusted, but thankfully some client returned a design with revisions.
Still applying everywhere that's suitable, but in the meantime I'm struggling to mentally cope with the atmosphere of extreme tedium and extreme hostility/stress.
If you haven't already that's a conversation I would have with your boss. Something along the lines of "Are you actually able to pay me for this months work? If not I'd like to hand in my notice now and ask for a reference for future employment".
This. Unless UK unemployment benefits require you to be laid off or fired without cause to collect, then you may just have to ride it out? Sounds like a bad situation you need to get out of ASAP, though.
Be civil with him and hopefully he'll do the same in return.
Also, when you start contacting former clients, if any of them are getting burned on this deal you need to tread with caution. Let them know that you're no longer with the company, but don't badmouth it or anything like that, just see if they need any work done and hopefully they won't hold a grudge against you because of the company.
Read your contract of employment and check if there are any post employment restrictions of any kind. If your employer has for whatever reason not sought to impose anything onerous like "Do not contact or solicit customers for X period", then it is unlikely a court is going to imply that kind of obligation.
Be weary of "You can't work in x field for 2 years or our competitors."
I have a friend who just quit his job and had this clause in his contract or whatever you call it when you get employed. What do you mean "be weary" of such a clause?
I have met many a people who work at Wally world because they believed the company would sue them if they worked for Barnes and Noble after quitting Borders (a bit more technical, but I am not going to put specific companies up here). Trade secrets aside, they don't hold much weight, and most people don't know trade secrets.
I don't think that A) the company would enforce it and
The company I worked for lost their contract and we were all fired but the first thing they did was send out a big statement saying we could go work for the competitor who won the contract.
But, because of that, other companies in your field/competitors/etc won't hire you out of fear of being sued.
I'm unsure of any legality anywhere where a company would go broke and then sue you or your employers, however.
Most non-competes that I have had and that friends have, here in the US, don't count if you're laid off or fired. They go into full effect if you voluntarily quit though.
Barring that, I'd say do this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QCgdLIDmLzY