Better economy, better army, same upgrades and I lose.
As a non toss player, I can tell you why you lost that particular fight.
He had more zealots than you, and zealots wreck stalkers if you're not kiting. Your zealots engaged for a good 5seconds before you brought the rest of your army in to fight. You focus fired stalkers, when you focus with that many stalkers, you waste shots. IE a stalker taking 10(random numbers here) hits to kill, and you're burning 20 on it. Once your zealots were down, his stalker/zealot/immortal was able to easily clean up your army.
tl;dr too much focus firing, not enough zealots.
Since you were already down the twilight council tech tree for blink, why didn't you make zealot/archon your end game unit comp?
edit: I forgot the most important part. When you add an expansion, you are technically 'behind' until that expansion pays for itself. So if you waited a minute or two, your army could have been that much better. Never expand then attack, always attack then expand.
so having watched some spanishiwa, machine, idra and others ive been noticing a tred for midgame mutas versus protoss, even against a 6 gate surprisingly
this fills me with awesome joy, any z#s on pa been experimenting?
God damnit, someone just FFE against me in PvP. I know that doesn't work because when I do it I get 4 gated. I 4 gated him and it didn't work. What in the fuck do I do against this? I guess the meta game now is to just expand yourself. But I don't feel that this is safe since he could just be going DT.
Better economy, better army, same upgrades and I lose.
As a non toss player, I can tell you why you lost that particular fight.
He had more zealots than you, and zealots wreck stalkers if you're not kiting. Your zealots engaged for a good 5seconds before you brought the rest of your army in to fight. You focus fired stalkers, when you focus with that many stalkers, you waste shots. IE a stalker taking 10(random numbers here) hits to kill, and you're burning 20 on it. Once your zealots were down, his stalker/zealot/immortal was able to easily clean up your army.
tl;dr too much focus firing, not enough zealots.
Since you were already down the twilight council tech tree for blink, why didn't you make zealot/archon your end game unit comp?
edit: I forgot the most important part. When you add an expansion, you are technically 'behind' until that expansion pays for itself. So if you waited a minute or two, your army could have been that much better. Never expand then attack, always attack then expand.
So if he expanded so early shouldn't I have been ahead? I only won that fight because my micro was better than his (the first one) The blink stalker micro is his base glitched out and did some nonsense and I lost apart of my army.
so having watched some spanishiwa, machine, idra and others ive been noticing a tred for midgame mutas versus protoss, even against a 6 gate surprisingly
this fills me with awesome joy, any z#s on pa been experimenting?
The only good player out of those is Idra and I can't think of ever seeing him go early mutas against 6 gate. I'm down on mutas in zvp right now because every game is upgraded blink stalkers. I like them for a later mass tech switch though.
Fizban, the reason FFE does not work in PvP is because you can just run around his base with your probe and plant pylons down before his stalker comes out. He literally can't catch you unless you mess up with the probe/miss a few chronoboosts.
Ironically, right after complaining in the thread yesterday about my dislike of cloaking mechanics, I played by far the most entertaining DT-heavy game I've ever had.
My failure to take the DT threat at all seriously once I had made my first couple overseers, and my generally fail overseer play thereafter, led into a rather hilarious endgame.
Fizban, the reason FFE does not work in PvP is because you can just run around his base with your probe and plant pylons down before his stalker comes out. He literally can't catch you unless you mess up with the probe/miss a few chronoboosts.
So what does that do for me? He just pulls probes and then I wasted pylons. Or he puts cannons around his base like he already had.
It just feels like Terran dominated PvT so hard that I am constantly behind until a very specific timing or super late end game. Denying scouting is too good, since protoss can only semi-safely expand after terran does.
Watched this game during lunch. Did this guy really call you a noob for not using MULES when he had Banshees on the map? Also, nice smack talk when his non-supported PF rush fails. Don't know why he just didn't take his own expo or reinforce with Tanks.
Silly cheese strats with no cheese follow up? For shame.
MNC Dover on
Need a voice actor? Hire me at bengrayVO.com
Legends of Runeterra: MNCdover #moc
Switch ID: MNC Dover SW-1154-3107-1051 Steam ID Twitch Page
I lost the shit out of a large game to DTs yesterday. I was so far ahead, demolished his first attack with banelings. But I kept losing bases to DTs even with spines and spores up-- he made so many. WAs using pheonixes to kill my overseers, I had no AA which is my fault.
also my fault is I kinda thought I had it so far won so I didn't exert map control and let him just throw down a few heavily photon cannon defended expos
Seems like the only zerg I can beat are the ones dumb enough not to attack me, they have the army, just not the balls to attacks. Whenever I do get attacked I lose the game, pretty much every game.
Fizban140 on
0
VariableMouth CongressStroke Me Lady FameRegistered Userregular
Seems like the only zerg I can beat are the ones dumb enough not to attack me, they have the army, just not the balls to attacks. Whenever I do get attacked I lose the game, pretty much every game.
Been trying MCs void ray PvZ, seems like I just get rofl stomped against heavy ling attacks. Void rays damage too slow.
That build (FFE void) assumes your opponent has some roaches to bust your wall. It's not going to work if he stays on lings. In that case, you should send the VRs elsewhere to blow things up.
Seems like the only zerg I can beat are the ones dumb enough not to attack me, they have the army, just not the balls to attacks. Whenever I do get attacked I lose the game, pretty much every game.
this is the exact opposite for most people
It's about right for zvp. Zergs tend to not prefer the late game in this matchup. Some maps make the whole attacking part more difficult than others. ZvT is much more volatile late game for both sides so passive zerg play is stronger and more common.
Seems like the only zerg I can beat are the ones dumb enough not to attack me, they have the army, just not the balls to attacks. Whenever I do get attacked I lose the game, pretty much every game.
this is the exact opposite for most people
It's about right for zvp. Zergs tend to not prefer the late game in this matchup. Some maps make the whole attacking part more difficult than others. ZvT is much more volatile late game for both sides so passive zerg play is stronger and more common.
I feel that if more zergs were willing to attack and sacrifice their army to kill colossi then they would do much better in late game engagements. It isn't easy to build of colossi. Actually I have been moving away from colossi and straight into HT after my 4 colossi.
Fizban140 on
0
TannerMS "I'm confidence cause I'm zerg!"Registered Userregular
Been trying MCs void ray PvZ, seems like I just get rofl stomped against heavy ling attacks. Void rays damage too slow.
It's the Void ray expand into mass gates, right? Make more zealots, simcity harder, chrono your +1 more. The people that I beat with ling aggression early on are typically too heavy on Stalkers and don't build their base with defense in mind. It's hard to say without a replay (problems before or after or while taking the expo?) but if you're not cutting corners or missing FFs, lings shouldn't be able to deal substantial damage.
Enigma, Machine is a really solid pro and Spanishiwa is one of the best amateurs in the world. If it works for them, it'll work for you. I think mutas are seeing more use because the gateway aggression we're seeing now is not the gateway aggression of November to February. There're a lot more probes, upgrades, and usually a robo behind these 6 gates.
I have a lot of problems sacrificing my army to kill Colossi. On Typhon, Shattered, Shakuras, Metal, and XNC, there's always a ledge to run over and the 3 bases are tight enough that you can't draw them out. I'd rather sit back and get my tech out than try to trade armies on his turf.
I just haven't seen them actually do muta against 6-7 gate blink stalker builds. I suspect it is like in the last thread where a bunch of people said infestor solved the deathball but not a soul could think of a pro game where it actually happened.
Also, not to sound too degrading, but Machine is about as far from a solid pro as I can think of. He's better than most players, but we really have no evidence to suggest machine is a good pro. I think it is likely spanishiwa is better than him.
Enigma435 on
0
TannerMS "I'm confidence cause I'm zerg!"Registered Userregular
I just haven't seen them actually do muta against 6-7 gate blink stalker builds. I suspect it is like in the last thread where a bunch of people said infestor solved the deathball but not a soul could think of a pro game where it actually happened.
I just haven't seen them actually do muta against 6-7 gate blink stalker builds. I suspect it is like in the last thread where a bunch of people said infestor solved the deathball but not a soul could think of a pro game where it actually happened.
I remember seeing Incontrol lose to heavy muta play by Darkforce. Not sure if he had blink stalkers, but he definitely didn't have HTs. From what I remember, everytime Incontrol went to attack, mutas attacked his base, and then flew back to defend.
I just haven't seen them actually do muta against 6-7 gate blink stalker builds. I suspect it is like in the last thread where a bunch of people said infestor solved the deathball but not a soul could think of a pro game where it actually happened.
nice dodge
Point me to muta defenses of the current 6-7 gate blink styles and I'll happily concede I'm wrong. I've seen a lot of great muta switches after the initial aggression is defeated as a way to seal the game, but I can't think of a pro going muta against the aggression.
I just haven't seen them actually do muta against 6-7 gate blink stalker builds. I suspect it is like in the last thread where a bunch of people said infestor solved the deathball but not a soul could think of a pro game where it actually happened.
I remember seeing Incontrol lose to heavy muta play by Darkforce. Not sure if he had blink stalkers, but he definitely didn't have HTs. From what I remember, everytime Incontrol went to attack, mutas attacked his base, and then flew back to defend.
I'm not saying muta is always bad, I think it is great against toss trying to go 3 base or more deathball, but against 2 base stalker focused blink play which is super popular I don't think it is that strong. My reasoning being that I'm not aware of any high level games where we've seen it done successfully. I could be totally wrong about it though. I just need to see some games where it works in that environment before I jump aboard.
Enigma435 on
0
TannerMS "I'm confidence cause I'm zerg!"Registered Userregular
I just haven't seen them actually do muta against 6-7 gate blink stalker builds. I suspect it is like in the last thread where a bunch of people said infestor solved the deathball but not a soul could think of a pro game where it actually happened.
nice dodge
Point me to muta defenses of the current 6-7 gate blink styles and I'll happily concede I'm wrong. I've seen a lot of great muta switches after the initial aggression is defeated as a way to seal the game, but I can't think of a pro going muta against the aggression.
Sheth in every game of his series against San is a decent example, I'm sure this isn't acceptable though because San went for a stargate first or something. Nobody is arguing that spire play should be your counter to 6 gates, just saying that going spire doesn't mean you automatically lose. Especially, when you've got cross positions.
Regardless, the only thing I was trying to say is that you've to be stupid, ignorant, or trolling to say that Machine isn't an amazing player or that Spanishiwa is better than him.
Also, not to sound too degrading, but Machine is about as far from a solid pro as I can think of. He's better than most players, but we really have no evidence to suggest machine is a good pro. I think it is likely spanishiwa is better than him.
Idra thinks Machine is one of the best macro zergs in the world. I am sure it is a little biased, but greg doesn't fuck around.
Tanner nowhere did I say that muta was an auto loss. I did say I didn't like it against against 6-7 gate which I don't think is a controversial statement. I loved Sen's muta play against sase(I think it was) at dreamhack against ffe into stargate. It was amazing, but all I said was I was down on muta because of the popularity of the 6 or 7 gate stalker aggression which it sounds like you're agreeing it isn't that amazing against.
What evidence do we have to suggest machine is a good pro? As far as professional players go he's pretty far down everyone's list of top players and he's so private with his playing that we don't get any evidence outside his less than impressive tournament results. He's like the 2nd or 3rd string QB in the NFL. Sure as far as football players go he's great as far as pros go he's mediocre.
Tanner nowhere did I say that muta was an auto loss. I did say I didn't like it against against 6-7 gate which I don't think is a controversial statement. I loved Sen's muta play against sase(I think it was) at dreamhack against ffe into stargate. It was amazing, but all I said was I was down on muta because of the popularity of the 6 or 7 gate stalker aggression which it sounds like you're agreeing it isn't that amazing against.
What evidence do we have to suggest machine is a good pro? As far as professional players go he's pretty far down everyone's list of top players and he's so private with his playing that we don't get any evidence outside his less than impressive tournament results. He's like the 2nd or 3rd string QB in the NFL. Sure as far as football players go he's great as far as pros go he's mediocre.
It would be like Peyton Manning saying someone is one of the most (horrible analogy incoming, I don't know football that well) accurate QBs in the world. Sure that person might not have the best results in their year long career, but there is definite potential.
I think machine has plenty of potential to be good, but I don't think we've seen results from him that indicate he's anything above a mediocre pro player. I can't believe that's a controversial statement.
I think machine has plenty of potential to be good, but I don't think we've seen results from him that indicate he's anything above a mediocre pro player. I can't believe that's a controversial statement.
Sure, I just didn't think it was fair to say he wasn't a good player. He is definitely a player to watch out for though. Especially once that team house gets set up for EG, American teams are about to vastly improve.
I wonder what difference a few months in the EG pro house will do for the lesser (non-Idra) EG players.
I would give it at least six months to be honest, counting out bad performance or bad luck in tournaments picking up these kinds of skills and really getting used to the training could take a while. Hell, they all have to learn how to work together and train and then they can learn to benefit from the training.
Fizban140 on
0
TannerMS "I'm confidence cause I'm zerg!"Registered Userregular
I think machine has plenty of potential to be good, but I don't think we've seen results from him that indicate he's anything above a mediocre pro player. I can't believe that's a controversial statement.
Ok, you're definitely trolling.
but Machine is about as far from a solid pro as I can think of
Maybe we have different definitions of solid, but I think it's more likely you're flailing your arms around trying to save face.
Point me to muta defenses of the current 6-7 gate blink styles and I'll happily concede I'm wrong. I've seen a lot of great muta switches after the initial aggression is defeated as a way to seal the game, but I can't think of a pro going muta against the aggression.
I did. But you're right, you never actually said mutas were an autoloss. I think it's fair to imply it from this though:
I just haven't seen them actually do muta against 6-7 gate blink stalker builds. I suspect it is like in the last thread where a bunch of people said infestor solved the deathball but not a soul could think of a pro game where it actually happened.
Every time I think I've figured out what you're trying to say it's "Well I never actually said that" and "I didn't say he was terrible". Are we actually having a discussion here or are you just making shit up as you go?
Watched this game during lunch. Did this guy really call you a noob for not using MULES when he had Banshees on the map? Also, nice smack talk when his non-supported PF rush fails. Don't know why he just didn't take his own expo or reinforce with Tanks.
Silly cheese strats with no cheese follow up? For shame.
heh, that was a strange comment alright.
I'm tempted to try this in a custom game and either, take the map or reinforce the contain with siege tanks. Seems like it could be a strong cheese build if you did it right.
Grrrrr when is the Forum server being upgraded?? :evil:
chuckleberryfinn on
No Protoss players were underpowered during this post.
I would agree it is unfair to say machine isn't a good player, but to say he's not a good pro (which is what my original statement was meant to say, because no pro is not good in the scheme of all players) is perfectly defensible because his results have been basically mediocre for most of sc2 and not been looking any better lately.
Enigma435 on
0
VariableMouth CongressStroke Me Lady FameRegistered Userregular
edited June 2011
nothing worse than scouting dts and then losing because you can't leave your base.
he did nice warp prism harass I'll give him that
dts are better than banshees
edit - 3-6 today. I was pretty sloppy. trying to be a little too flexible and ended up losing a couple because I did things I'm not used to (first game specifically I tried an earlier attack than usual when I saw an fe because of what I saw jinro do in gsl. it was a dumb move!). lost to iechoic build because it's unbeatable. lost to a stalker void ray all in because I got conc shell before stim which I never do. arghgh.
the losses are less frustrating though when I'm so aware of how badly I'm playing. I only really deserved one of the wins. one was a failed baneling bust and one was close positions metal vs. Z... not that it's impossible to win for Z but he also played pretty badly, I think he was panicked from the get go. only good game was a tvp on tal darim where my attack was timed correctly and I took down an expo. then a drop scouted his tech choice and it was easy from there.
Posts
makes it easier when you have both eyes
Witty signature comment goes here...
wra
http://www.gamereplays.org/starcraft2/replays.php?game=33&show=details&id=218679
Better economy, better army, same upgrades and I lose.
As a non toss player, I can tell you why you lost that particular fight.
He had more zealots than you, and zealots wreck stalkers if you're not kiting. Your zealots engaged for a good 5seconds before you brought the rest of your army in to fight. You focus fired stalkers, when you focus with that many stalkers, you waste shots. IE a stalker taking 10(random numbers here) hits to kill, and you're burning 20 on it. Once your zealots were down, his stalker/zealot/immortal was able to easily clean up your army.
tl;dr too much focus firing, not enough zealots.
Since you were already down the twilight council tech tree for blink, why didn't you make zealot/archon your end game unit comp?
edit: I forgot the most important part. When you add an expansion, you are technically 'behind' until that expansion pays for itself. So if you waited a minute or two, your army could have been that much better. Never expand then attack, always attack then expand.
this fills me with awesome joy, any z#s on pa been experimenting?
So if he expanded so early shouldn't I have been ahead? I only won that fight because my micro was better than his (the first one) The blink stalker micro is his base glitched out and did some nonsense and I lost apart of my army.
The only good player out of those is Idra and I can't think of ever seeing him go early mutas against 6 gate. I'm down on mutas in zvp right now because every game is upgraded blink stalkers. I like them for a later mass tech switch though.
http://www.gamereplays.org/starcraft2/replays.php?game=33&show=details&id=218684
My failure to take the DT threat at all seriously once I had made my first couple overseers, and my generally fail overseer play thereafter, led into a rather hilarious endgame.
Steam: badger2d
So what does that do for me? He just pulls probes and then I wasted pylons. Or he puts cannons around his base like he already had.
It just feels like Terran dominated PvT so hard that I am constantly behind until a very specific timing or super late end game. Denying scouting is too good, since protoss can only semi-safely expand after terran does.
Watched this game during lunch. Did this guy really call you a noob for not using MULES when he had Banshees on the map? Also, nice smack talk when his non-supported PF rush fails. Don't know why he just didn't take his own expo or reinforce with Tanks.
Silly cheese strats with no cheese follow up? For shame.
Legends of Runeterra: MNCdover #moc
Switch ID: MNC Dover SW-1154-3107-1051
Steam ID
Twitch Page
100% win rate.
What do I do? I make pylons....?
also my fault is I kinda thought I had it so far won so I didn't exert map control and let him just throw down a few heavily photon cannon defended expos
B.net: Kusanku
You 4 gate their face. You can't effectively defend 2 bases with just cannons once units get in.
this is the exact opposite for most people
That build (FFE void) assumes your opponent has some roaches to bust your wall. It's not going to work if he stays on lings. In that case, you should send the VRs elsewhere to blow things up.
Games: Ad Astra Per Phalla | Choose Your Own Phalla
MNC Dover's life must be blissful.
Witty signature comment goes here...
wra
It's about right for zvp. Zergs tend to not prefer the late game in this matchup. Some maps make the whole attacking part more difficult than others. ZvT is much more volatile late game for both sides so passive zerg play is stronger and more common.
I feel that if more zergs were willing to attack and sacrifice their army to kill colossi then they would do much better in late game engagements. It isn't easy to build of colossi. Actually I have been moving away from colossi and straight into HT after my 4 colossi.
It's the Void ray expand into mass gates, right? Make more zealots, simcity harder, chrono your +1 more. The people that I beat with ling aggression early on are typically too heavy on Stalkers and don't build their base with defense in mind. It's hard to say without a replay (problems before or after or while taking the expo?) but if you're not cutting corners or missing FFs, lings shouldn't be able to deal substantial damage.
Enigma, Machine is a really solid pro and Spanishiwa is one of the best amateurs in the world. If it works for them, it'll work for you. I think mutas are seeing more use because the gateway aggression we're seeing now is not the gateway aggression of November to February. There're a lot more probes, upgrades, and usually a robo behind these 6 gates.
I have a lot of problems sacrificing my army to kill Colossi. On Typhon, Shattered, Shakuras, Metal, and XNC, there's always a ledge to run over and the 3 bases are tight enough that you can't draw them out. I'd rather sit back and get my tech out than try to trade armies on his turf.
nice dodge
I remember seeing Incontrol lose to heavy muta play by Darkforce. Not sure if he had blink stalkers, but he definitely didn't have HTs. From what I remember, everytime Incontrol went to attack, mutas attacked his base, and then flew back to defend.
Point me to muta defenses of the current 6-7 gate blink styles and I'll happily concede I'm wrong. I've seen a lot of great muta switches after the initial aggression is defeated as a way to seal the game, but I can't think of a pro going muta against the aggression.
I'm not saying muta is always bad, I think it is great against toss trying to go 3 base or more deathball, but against 2 base stalker focused blink play which is super popular I don't think it is that strong. My reasoning being that I'm not aware of any high level games where we've seen it done successfully. I could be totally wrong about it though. I just need to see some games where it works in that environment before I jump aboard.
Sheth in every game of his series against San is a decent example, I'm sure this isn't acceptable though because San went for a stargate first or something. Nobody is arguing that spire play should be your counter to 6 gates, just saying that going spire doesn't mean you automatically lose. Especially, when you've got cross positions.
Regardless, the only thing I was trying to say is that you've to be stupid, ignorant, or trolling to say that Machine isn't an amazing player or that Spanishiwa is better than him.
Idra thinks Machine is one of the best macro zergs in the world. I am sure it is a little biased, but greg doesn't fuck around.
What evidence do we have to suggest machine is a good pro? As far as professional players go he's pretty far down everyone's list of top players and he's so private with his playing that we don't get any evidence outside his less than impressive tournament results. He's like the 2nd or 3rd string QB in the NFL. Sure as far as football players go he's great as far as pros go he's mediocre.
It would be like Peyton Manning saying someone is one of the most (horrible analogy incoming, I don't know football that well) accurate QBs in the world. Sure that person might not have the best results in their year long career, but there is definite potential.
Sure, I just didn't think it was fair to say he wasn't a good player. He is definitely a player to watch out for though. Especially once that team house gets set up for EG, American teams are about to vastly improve.
I would give it at least six months to be honest, counting out bad performance or bad luck in tournaments picking up these kinds of skills and really getting used to the training could take a while. Hell, they all have to learn how to work together and train and then they can learn to benefit from the training.
Ok, you're definitely trolling.
Maybe we have different definitions of solid, but I think it's more likely you're flailing your arms around trying to save face.
I did. But you're right, you never actually said mutas were an autoloss. I think it's fair to imply it from this though:
Every time I think I've figured out what you're trying to say it's "Well I never actually said that" and "I didn't say he was terrible". Are we actually having a discussion here or are you just making shit up as you go?
heh, that was a strange comment alright.
I'm tempted to try this in a custom game and either, take the map or reinforce the contain with siege tanks. Seems like it could be a strong cheese build if you did it right.
Grrrrr when is the Forum server being upgraded?? :evil:
he did nice warp prism harass I'll give him that
dts are better than banshees
edit - 3-6 today. I was pretty sloppy. trying to be a little too flexible and ended up losing a couple because I did things I'm not used to (first game specifically I tried an earlier attack than usual when I saw an fe because of what I saw jinro do in gsl. it was a dumb move!). lost to iechoic build because it's unbeatable. lost to a stalker void ray all in because I got conc shell before stim which I never do. arghgh.
the losses are less frustrating though when I'm so aware of how badly I'm playing. I only really deserved one of the wins. one was a failed baneling bust and one was close positions metal vs. Z... not that it's impossible to win for Z but he also played pretty badly, I think he was panicked from the get go. only good game was a tvp on tal darim where my attack was timed correctly and I took down an expo. then a drop scouted his tech choice and it was easy from there.