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Video game [graphics] could take a massive leap with Euclideon's graphics engine!

Victory63Victory63 Registered User regular
edited August 2011 in Games and Technology
A developer named Euclideon have developed a graphics engine which provides what they claim to be is "unlimited detail" and can create models which use millions of polygon atoms rather than just a few:
http://kotaku.com/5826788/could-this-graphics-tech-revolutionize-the-way-video-games-look

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  • SheepSheep Registered User, __BANNED USERS regular
    "Tiny little atoms"

    So... voxels?

  • MechMantisMechMantis Registered User regular
    Not exactly, by the looks of it.

    OP, could you give us a bit more detail other than a link to a video? Seems there should be more available on this.

  • MagicPrimeMagicPrime FiresideWizard Registered User regular
    edited August 2011
    Voxel engine.

    Show me something done by a developer with some physics involved and I will be impressed. Tech Demos are notoriously biased.

    I read about this on Kotaku yesterday.

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  • surrealitychecksurrealitycheck lonely, but not unloved dreaming of faulty keys and latchesRegistered User regular
    There's not much animation. It'd be interesting to see a more technical explanation that shows how it reduces the calculations required so dramatically.

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  • reVersereVerse Attack and Dethrone God Registered User regular
    edited August 2011
    The narrator on that video makes me think it's fake. He sounds like the kind of voice you would use on a video about how panda penises are the world's most powerful supercomputer.

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  • C2BC2B SwitzerlandRegistered User regular
    edited August 2011
    There is actually a thread from last year:

    http://forums.penny-arcade.com/discussion/114326/unlimited-detail#Item_3

    Also IDs John Carmacks response to it


    Re Euclideon, no chance of a game on current gen systems, but maybe several years from now. Production issues will be challenging.

    C2B on
  • darleysamdarleysam On my way to UKRegistered User regular
    edited August 2011
    There's not much animation. It'd be interesting to see a more technical explanation that shows how it reduces the calculations required so dramatically.

    Yeah, if they can demonstrate this functioning under gaming stress, I'll be properly impressed. I'd be very surprised if the likes of Carmack have never considered anything like this.

    edit: I see Carmack has already been invoked. Good. Good.

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  • chocoboliciouschocobolicious Registered User regular
    While it looks fantastic, when I think of 'tiny little atoms' I think of things like modern smoke effects and how much processing they take. I just don't see how this could work in actual animated, active environments without taking some crossfire 6770s or something similar. I'd like to be surprised though.

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  • jackaljackal Fuck Yes. That is an orderly anal warehouse. Registered User regular
    unlimited powah

  • DisposaDisposa Registered User regular
    I'm surprised though this hasn't been used in movies yet

  • C2BC2B SwitzerlandRegistered User regular
    edited August 2011
    Sheep wrote:
    "Tiny little atoms"

    So... voxels?

    As far as I understand (don't quote me on it. No technical background. Second hand info) its not exactly Voxels but something different.

    darleysam wrote:
    I'd be very surprised if the likes of Carmack have never considered anything like this.

    Not exactly the same thing but Carmack wants to go with voxels for ID Tech 6.

    C2B on
  • SheepSheep Registered User, __BANNED USERS regular
    reVerse wrote:
    The narrator on that video makes me think it's fake. He sounds like the kind of voice you would use on a video about how panda penises are the world's most powerful supercomputer.

    Man I thought the exact same thing.

    "Why does this guy sound like an American trying to sound British?"

  • jackaljackal Fuck Yes. That is an orderly anal warehouse. Registered User regular
    Isn't that what aussies are suppose to sound like?

    Initially I thought the "atoms" were distinct from voxels because they are point sources, but voxels can (and probably should) be considered point sources (in the same way that pixels are also point sources).

  • zerg rushzerg rush Registered User regular
    Supposedly, the downside to this system is that it relies or precalculation for all the heavy lifting. This means that in order to use it in a game you need...

    -Things to stay still, as in no animation (or almost none).
    -A very small number of unique objects. You're allowed to have the most lifelike, realistic rocks in existence. You can zoom in on a pile of 100,000 of them from space down to microscopic level. But you're only allowed to have four unique rocks, tiled over and over until you make mountains.

  • jackaljackal Fuck Yes. That is an orderly anal warehouse. Registered User regular
    Those seem like pretty big deal breakers. No one will care about unlimited detail doesn't seem like it would matter if it isn't interactive. Who cares if the grass is in unlimited detail if it can't blow in the wind. Then again maybe it scales well and they are developing it for the many-core cpus of the future and increasingly general purpose GPUs.

  • MagicPrimeMagicPrime FiresideWizard Registered User regular
    Extremely tiny atoms? Have you priced those lately?

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  • PhurrehPhurreh Registered User regular
    Haven't they showed that years ago? And since then, I don't think they've shown something that looks like an interactive game.
    I vaguely remember some ridiculously choppy animated 'model' demo, to show that yes they could have animated stuff.
    But it felt like a 3D sprite, no transition or interpolation between the frames of animation. And wasn't even integrated in a game-like demo or environment.

    Would required everyone in the 3D world, people apps and pipelines to change radically to try and make it kinda work, too.
    I guess they're just trying to get bought, à la PhysX.

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  • El GuacoEl Guaco Registered User regular
    I remember seeing this last year. It makes me wonder, if this is so awesome, how come no one is using it for a game? There must be limitations they haven't conquered yet. Still, it gives me hope that graphics are headed in this direction.

  • jackaljackal Fuck Yes. That is an orderly anal warehouse. Registered User regular
    Plus they already got a big chunk of money from the Aussie government. Could just be a money grab. This looks like it would be great for real time medical imaging though.

  • BuhamutZeoBuhamutZeo Registered User regular
    Ya know, I really would not mind if these were environment only, freeing up memory and processor power for more detailed effects and "moving" characters and objects.

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  • Linespider5Linespider5 ALL HAIL KING KILLMONGER Registered User regular
    Interesting. But, yes. These guys need to roll out some stuff that's interactive. Dynamic lighting, animated elements in the environment, skeletal rigging, deformation/structural interactions, and the like. It does look pretty nice considering how little they have, but they really ought to grab some art people to put it through its paces and break it in proper.

  • C2BC2B SwitzerlandRegistered User regular
    El Guaco wrote:
    I remember seeing this last year. It makes me wonder, if this is so awesome, how come no one is using it for a game? There must be limitations they haven't conquered yet. Still, it gives me hope that graphics are headed in this direction.

    They are not done yet. Its basically just a status update.

  • amnesiasoftamnesiasoft Thick Creamy Furry Registered User regular
    Status update my ass. This has been being showed off for YEARS now. It has never once changed. It's a bunch of bullshit.

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  • WassermeloneWassermelone Registered User regular
    edited August 2011
    I'll believe it when its not just them saying it.

    Besides, speaking as an artist, detail is one of the least important things when talking 'realism'. Light and movement is practically everything.

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  • C2BC2B SwitzerlandRegistered User regular
    edited August 2011
    Status update my ass. This has been being showed off for YEARS now. It has never once changed. It's a bunch of bullshit.

    The island stuff was new though (Or I don't remember it from old footage). Also 3 years isn't really that long.

    Though yeah, theres almost no progress regarding several points or they are just horrible at showing that off.

    C2B on
  • TychoCelchuuuTychoCelchuuu PIGEON Registered User regular
    Lump me in with the "I don't care until it's running on my computer" crowd. They haven't even breathed a word about how this is going to work in a game where you want real time lighting and fancy animation, and until they do, it's just making me nostalgic for Delta Force 2 and Outcast.

  • corky842corky842 Registered User regular
    I was just reminded of this more real one. They actually have more than just static scenes to demonstrate it too.

  • jackaljackal Fuck Yes. That is an orderly anal warehouse. Registered User regular
    Is it just me or did the videos they included of traditional graphics have every bell and whistle that GPUs have accumulated throughout their entire existence turned off. Isn't the point of normal mapping and pixel shaders and all that crap to make a low poly mesh look as if they are much more detailed than they actually are?

  • rRootagearRootagea MadisonRegistered User regular
    edited August 2011
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n2qkne-EOG8&feature=player_embedded#at=248

    e: crap, how do i delete posts

    Also you have to remember how long it took for fancy shaders and rigging or whatnot to develop for polygons.

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  • TychoCelchuuuTychoCelchuuu PIGEON Registered User regular
    corky842 wrote:
    I was just reminded of this more real one. They actually have more than just static scenes to demonstrate it too.
    Their latest update is 2 months ago, and it says "screenshots coming soon," and before that it was in February when they posted something asking for money, because presumably they are out of money. So while I'm a lot less skeptical of these guys, I'm not sure they'll ever churn out something that we'll end up playing, just because they'll starve to death if they don't start working on something else at some point.

  • amnesiasoftamnesiasoft Thick Creamy Furry Registered User regular
    C2B wrote:
    Also 3 years isn't really that long.
    3 years? You do realize that the Euclideon CEO, Bruce Dell, was the CEO of Unlimited Detail since... 1995. That sounds like more than 3 years to me.

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  • C2BC2B SwitzerlandRegistered User regular
    edited August 2011
    C2B wrote:
    Also 3 years isn't really that long.
    3 years? You do realize that the Euclideon CEO, Bruce Dell, was the CEO of Unlimited Detail since... 1995. That sounds like more than 3 years to me.

    They still showed it off for the first time 3 years ago (And that wasn't publically). When the company was founded doesn't really matter.

    Also I have no idea if this is real or not either way.

    C2B on
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  • EnigEnig a.k.a. Ansatz Registered User regular
    Good thing we have a guy who made a Java block game that still isn't finished to tell us about other people's software.

    I don't see the point in being so negative about this. If it is fake then it will never make it into actual video games and then.. who cares (unless you are an investor)? It is an interesting possibility though, and certainly seems impressive. I suppose the thing to do now is wait for their next update or proper release (if that actually happens).

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  • TurkeyTurkey So, Usoop. TampaRegistered User regular
    Actually, everything Notch said is true.

  • UncleSporkyUncleSporky Registered User regular
    Notch is right, that does make a lot of sense. The lessons he learned (the same lessons I've seen) from working with a game that involves tons of tiny pieces are definitely applicable here. Each atom is a couple bytes of data, and billions of them means massive file sizes. Compression is helpful but only goes so far.

    Enig, it's not "fake." It's just not being totally honest about how useful it is. It's like the floating head of Mario at the start of Mario 64 - look at all those polygons, the detail, the animation! Except it takes up basically all the system resources and isn't practical for use in a game.

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  • admanbadmanb unionize your workplace Seattle, WARegistered User regular
    Enig wrote:
    Good thing we have a guy who made a Java block game that still isn't finished to tell us about other people's software.

    I don't see the point in being so negative about this. If it is fake then it will never make it into actual video games and then.. who cares (unless you are an investor)? It is an interesting possibility though, and certainly seems impressive. I suppose the thing to do now is wait for their next update or proper release (if that actually happens).

    The reason this video exists is to create hype, which creates investors, which gets them money. If the technology is based on smoke and mirrors then they should not get hype, and they should not get money.

  • jackaljackal Fuck Yes. That is an orderly anal warehouse. Registered User regular
    edited August 2011
    If the intent isn't to make destructible environments wouldn't the number of atoms drop dramatically? With Atomontage they have to have atoms all throughout the sand and through the walls, which is a lot of atoms. With this it sounds like all of the objects are hollow shells and would therefore have many orders of magnitude fewer atoms. Everything else Notch said sounds spot on though.

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  • The Dude With HerpesThe Dude With Herpes Lehi, UTRegistered User regular
    jackal wrote:
    If the intent isn't to make destructible environments wouldn't the number of atoms drop dramatically? With Atomontage they have to have atoms all throughout the sand and through the walls, which is a lot of atoms. With this it sounds like all of the objects are hollow shells and would therefore have many orders of magnitude fewer atoms. Everything else Notch said sounds spot on though.

    This is what I was wondering.

    Wouldn't someone making an intelligent voxel engine do just like most polygon engines and not actually compute unnecessary details unless required? You calculate what can be seen and what you know will be seen. It's needlessly overburdening to have your engine render everything even things you will never see or manipulate. Granted, in some more poorly designed games you have obvious nonsense like ridiculous pop-in as a result of this, but it can be accounted for and planned around. I get that the amount of points to be computed would be obscene under the explanation Notch gave but that seems like a really limited way of looking at the system.

    Plus, when it comes to the fine details of graphics engines I'll go with Carmack over Notch; if he's really planning on the next idtech engine to be voxel based there has to be something there that Notch doesn't understand.

    Maybe it'll be some sort of hybrid engine since voxels apparently are total shit to animate.

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  • C2BC2B SwitzerlandRegistered User regular
    Plus, when it comes to the fine details of graphics engines I'll go with Carmack over Notch; if he's really planning on the next idtech engine to be voxel based there has to be something there that Notch doesn't understand.

    Maybe it'll be some sort of hybrid engine since voxels apparently are total shit to animate.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Id_Tech_6

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